Fighter combat

[dbuile]

Major issue in single player is AI does not fly, imo, in a manner condusive to wing tactics.  Also, this means you can learn habits that defeat AI, but those habits are detrimental in multi-player environments.    

[Varibraun]

6 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

I'm curious: why should the stiffness of the joystick spring facilitate the linearity of the commands?

 

It is likely a personal preference and has something to do with not having "younger" reflexes, but I personally find that a joystick with more SMOOTH heavier resistance helps with those smaller stick movements without over correcting.  It is just easier to push/pull a little too hard with lighter springs.  However some of this also goes back to the discussion of using an extension, because heavy springs on a desktop joystick can also be counter productive (I first experienced this with adding a heavier spring to a TM Warthog before I eventually obtained an extension and lowered it below desktop position). 

 

My own peripheral journey sounds a lot like what @Oyster_KAI describes and I too eventually moved to 0% sensitivity as my equipment (not skill) improved.  There are many discussions over in the hardware forum about springs as well as cams and dampers for both rudder pedals and joysticks and the impact of the smooth resistance they add.

That said, I am happy to hear you are making progress and I think you are on the right path with experimenting with your sensitivity settings based on the video track you posted.  I say this because I had exactly that same "wobble" with my old Logitech 3D 10 years ago and those adjustments helped me along the way to my current setup.

 

Finally, @Charon's suggestion to rebind your trigger to your throttle might bear the most fruit in the short-term as you monkey with your settings.  Which goes back to your question, because even a smooth joystick trigger pull is harder to achieve with lighter spring sensitivity. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Varibraun

[RyanR]

7 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

I believe that even there there is a subjective compromise between hardware and personal skills and obtainable benefits; e.g. if I don't have an axis (i.e. wheel) to continuously adjust elevator trim, and have to do it with buttons instead, it is likely that the gain gained will be lost in terms of time required to adjust and distracted from actual piloting. However, I would like to point out that, following your suggestion, I'm looking for a better compromise at least on the use of elevator trim, with good results.

 

Try obvious keys (arrow keys?) or a buttons on a joystick. I've also found that there's a pretty good ballpark trim settings for climb, cruise, screaming-dive, and tangling with the enemy.

 

After all the planes have scattered, be willing to switch up targets for the bigger threats: guys with better angle or energy. Sadly a 4 vs 4 engagement (all AI but you) can turn into 4 guys after you.... as your wingmen leave you hanging. Wingmen sometimes come through, sometimes they make great bait for the bad guys, sometimes they're out to lunch.

 

-Ryan

 

[Dragon1-1]

6 hours ago, busdriver said:

If you read Blesse's "No Guts No Glory" (F-86 era) circulated by the Fighter Weapons School you'll find that it was USAF doctrine. USAF F-4 air-to-air squadrons were still flying welded wing over NVN up to the end. It remained part of the RTU Phase Manual (Contact, Formation, Air-to-Ground, Air-to-Air). Point being it wasn't just for poorly trained wingmen, it was just crummy orthodoxy in an organization that didn't consider BFM skills important IMO. The USN was much smarter. I point you in the direction of Marshall Michel's Clashes...

Yeah, I know, that was why they got their asses kicked all over the sky the Vietnamese MiGs. Those wingmen were assumed to be poorly trained, and to some extent they were (being mostly taught air to ground and shooting missiles), but either way, that was simply the wrong approach to take. Shaw wrote his book at a time when this was the prevailing thinking, dating back to WWII and Korea, and tactics he describes, like double attack and loose deuce, were relatively new. USN was pretty much unique in what they did, Soviets never came up with an equivalent to Topgun, for example, and quite frankly, neither did anyone else in the WP or NATO. 

 

6 hours ago, busdriver said:

Up until the early 80s, the VVS genuinely had no clue. They didn't know what a free fighter was. It wasn't part of their doctrine. They were just beginning to practice ACM, baby steps (the initial reaction to a threat). It was eye opening. In 1982 I was in a room (in Berlin) with F-15 guys while watching the radar track of Soviet MiG-23 Floggers practicing 2-v-1 ACM over the DDR. The Eagle guys were scoffing, "F*ck, I'd shoot the left hand guy here (x miles prior to the merge), then shoot the right hand guy here (closer to the merge)...these guys suck!" It was funny.

Yup, probably not helped by the MiG-23 being great interceptors and spectacularly bad at ACM. Soviets, in essence, made the same mistakes the Americans did in Vietnam with regards to fighter combat, but never got into a war that would show them the error of their ways. They did get one F-5 Tiger, which kind of caused them to reevaluate that thinking, but it came fairly late. 

 

Either way, we're way ahead of 80s VVS. Tactics used in modern sims are definitely anachronistic, we fly period fighters, but use tactics, techniques and theory that would only take its current form after Vietnam, and even then, mostly in the US.

 

6 hours ago, Robli said:

I disagree. There are lots of players online that have probably not read the book or are eager to get their kills, get tunnel vision and end up being shot down with very basic 2-vs-1 or 2-vs-2 maneouvers.

Against rookies, yes, but you don't need to read Shaw to handle them, either. Besides, I'm pretty sure if someone is serious enough to actually learn how to work with another aircraft, as opposed to the typical (if historically accurate for at least some WWII forces) "every man for himself" approach seen on public servers, then you can expect both wing and lead to know these fundamentals.

[JG13_opcode]

On 12/3/2022 at 8:38 AM, greybeard_52 said:

I'm not saying otherwise. But with this he himself proves that all tactics are "hot air".

 

A lot of responses to many of your points but I'm going to zero in on this quote in particular.

 

I completely, categorically, disagree with the idea that all tactics are "hot air".  It's been years since I last opened my copy of Fighter Combat but I believe you're referring to the "Many vs Many" section where Shaw is discussing what he calls "unlimited aircraft" scenarios, i.e. large furballs.  But what Shaw calls "gaggle tactics" is just a regular loose deuce with more than two aircraft.

 

It's more effective when you are outnumbered or evenly matched numerically because you maximize the number of offensive situations you can generate against your opponents.  For example if you're flying in a 4 ship, you can attack 4 separate bandits if everyone flies loosey-goosey rather than only 2 if you operate as a 4-ship flying as two pairs.  And that's fine for some scenarios, but there are others where you want to sacrifice offensive efficiency.

 

For example I often like to cruise half-way between enemy airfields and popular objectives/targets looking for easy kills.  Suppose my wingman and I find some P-47s climbing out and decide to attack.  Should we employ a loose deuce ("gaggle tactics")?  To me that depends on altitude.  Sometimes I greatly prefer to have my wingman purely watching my 6 (or me watching his) rather than setting up for their own attacks because it affords better overall situational awareness. 

 

If I'm behind enemy lines, especially up high, I'd rather let an enemy go because my wingman sees trouble inbound.  Conversely if we're down low I'd rather get the kill as quickly as possible so we can GTFO.

 

tl;dr different tactics are applicable in different situations and it's on you as the pilot to assess when they're relevant/applicable.

Edited December 7, 2022 by JG13_opcode

[dbuile]

On 12/3/2022 at 3:44 PM, Charon said:

The lack of communication or cooperation from the AI is IMO definitely the worst part of the singleplayer experience

To bring the thread back to Greybeard a little, Charon's statement is important, imo.  I think you're going to learn best, take the next leap, learning from other people in multiplayer situations; coop could be the least nerve wracking.  You've already done the academics.  And there's just no good mentor among the AI.    

[greybeard_52]

The subject is vast and there are many opinions and experiences, I respect them all, but I prefer not to enter into discussions which, all in all, go beyond the topic of my specific interest. My joystick is faulty: I see its output swinging in the negative side of the Y axis (with input absolutely fixed) even in the Windows test. Strangely, when I replaced it with a HOTAS 4 (thinking that wear and tear was the cause), the latter also made the same defect. I wonder why a device that has 1024 positions between 0 and -1 anyway, should behave as if it only has 5 or 6! Unfortunately now I can't face the expense of a superior class peripheral, so I'm trying to arrange thanks to your advice, with some success. I got the greatest benefit from the introduction of the "filter" set at 0.5, which greatly reduced wobbling without making the aircraft sluggish. I left the pitch and roll sensitivity at 100%, but reduced the yaw sensitivity to 50%, resulting in better take-off control. I'm now aware that it's best to constantly adjust the pitch trim, with a primary advantage on wobbling reduction (enhanced by the increased stick pull) and secondary on horizontal speed (especially in pursuits) and better climb. To do this (following Shamrock's suggestion) I moved the control to the coolie-hat of my joystick, which is very functional. I did many other tests, of which I'll spare you the description, since they didn't give a positive result. I believe that there are no miraculous recipes, only good compromises. Now, thanks to you, I've gone from, let's say, 90% frustration to even enjoying certain missions like a glass of good vintage wine!?

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

I'd  suggest the thrustmaster 1600m joystick.   Not the best stick on the market, but reasonably priced, many features, and mine has been quite reliable.  Keep your receipt, they used to have a warranty.  1 year iirc.    If I remember correctly, it's digital  so fewer wear issues..

 

Also...you may want to check out a head tracker.  Definitely a game changer.   I use a simple product made by "grass monkey".   Not a huge expense, and well worth it.

.

Edited December 9, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[ST_Catchov]

1 hour ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

I'd  suggest the thrustmaster 1600m joystick.   Not the best stick on the market, but reasonably priced, many features, and mine has been quite reliable

 

I agree. I've been procrastinating about getting the 16000m to replace my msffb2. I love it and it's still going strong but it has limited buttons. The Thrustmaster is cheap like me. I'm not about to lay down a small fortune for them fancy ones.

[ShamrockOneFive]

1 hour ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

I agree. I've been procrastinating about getting the 16000m to replace my msffb2. I love it and it's still going strong but it has limited buttons. The Thrustmaster is cheap like me. I'm not about to lay down a small fortune for them fancy ones.

 

See if you can stretch for the Gladiator NXT or NXT EVO. Better everything and shouldn't cost too much more.

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

See if you can stretch for the Gladiator NXT or NXT EVO. Better everything and shouldn't cost too much more.

☝️

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

2 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

See if you can stretch for the Gladiator NXT or NXT EVO. Better everything and shouldn't cost too much more.

This x1,000. Just got mine after having the T16000M...major upgrade along with the VKB hotas and pedals.

Edited December 9, 2022 by drewm3i-VR

[ST_Catchov]

5 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

See if you can stretch for the Gladiator NXT or NXT EVO. Better everything and shouldn't cost too much more.

 

Thanks for that Shamrock. The cheapest from the Oz distributer is the WWII Combat for $255 aud. No go due to RL issues and a very casual attitude toward flight simming right now. Maybe down the track sometime if I get enthused again and rework my setup. Not a priority tbh but appreciate the suggestion.

[JG27*PapaFly]

On 12/5/2022 at 1:35 PM, AEthelraedUnraed said:

your trim is off, you need to constantly apply pressure to the stick to keep the plane level. Because of how the human muscle system works, this constant pressure results in less fine control over any additional pressure.

IMO the superiority of neutral trim is up to debate.

I learned recently that the pilots of the blue angels demonstration team trim their planes tail heavy at all times during the show. This is specifically done to improve the accuracy of their stick input.

 

The  thing about muscle memory is this: humans are better at memorizing the force necessary for a specific reaction, compared to memorizing stick positions. That's why the F-16 stick is a force sensing device with minimal displacement.  Now, if you've trimmed all stick forces away at your current speed and fly straight and level behind a bandit trying to shoot him,  there is very little force necessary to aim the plane.  Thus our in-built force sensing and memory system operates near its sensitivity limit and has little information to work with.  A tail- heavy trim in the same situation is feeding a good deal of force into your sensory system. Fine-tuning this input to achieve the desired effect is much easier. I've re-thought my trimming technique following the blue angels doctrine and the results are mind-blowing, especially when it comes to long range kill shots.

 

As an example, I am now able to kill AAA guns from 3KM away using the 50 mm cannon on the ME410.

Edited December 9, 2022 by JG27_PapaFly

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Interesting, i do prefer flying WW2 AC tail heavy, and do push elevator for desire attitude. This way I'm constantly using pressure. Diving control is much better also. This came natural to me because I use to  WW1 planse which are tail heavy in general. 

Edited December 9, 2022 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[ShamrockOneFive]

3 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

Thanks for that Shamrock. The cheapest from the Oz distributer is the WWII Combat for $255 aud. No go due to RL issues and a very casual attitude toward flight simming right now. Maybe down the track sometime if I get enthused again and rework my setup. Not a priority tbh but appreciate the suggestion.

Totally understand! Good luck and maybe some point down the road it will make more sense.

[Lusekofte]

3 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

Thanks for that Shamrock. The cheapest from the Oz distributer is the WWII Combat for $255 aud. No go due to RL issues and a very casual attitude toward flight simming right now. Maybe down the track sometime if I get enthused again and rework my setup. Not a priority tbh but appreciate the suggestion.

You cannot stay enthused by any sim alone in the long run. I always used Clod , DCS and msfs as a surrogate. 
I cannot imagine just using either one of them alone and spend money just for the one. 
This is why I have two sets of controls for two houses and it contain both yoke and stick and collective. I have a hard time getting room enough just to sit down. 
If you invest in new gear. Be sure it meets your requirements and are in a range of durability. But never go there with only one sim in mind. 
You know what game hardware most sold used in the world? With motion platforms and the lot. Racing and it is sold by those getting hung up in one racing brand. It take month not years getting fed up with one

[BlitzPig_EL]

I've been using the same CH HOTAS set that I purchased way back in the early years of original IL2.  I'd love to get one of the modern Hall effect 

sticks from Virpil or VKB, etc, but these things take up so much real estate on the desktop that I just can't make it happen.  If someone came up with a modern stick with the same footprint and height as the CH Fighter Stick, or even a Hall effect conversion for the CH, I'd be all over it.

Edited December 9, 2022 by BlitzPig_EL

[firdimigdi]

20 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

or even a Hall effect conversion for the CH

 

I knew I'd seen that mentioned in the DCS forum:

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/214485-ch-products-upgrades

[BlitzPig_EL]

Wow!

 

Thanks for this info!!!

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I've been using the same CH HOTAS set that I purchased way back in the early years of original IL2.  I'd love to get one of the modern Hall effect 

sticks from Virpil or VKB, etc, but these things take up so much real estate on the desktop that I just can't make it happen.  If someone came up with a modern stick with the same footprint and height as the CH Fighter Stick, or even a Hall effect conversion for the CH, I'd be all over it.

The VKB Gladiator NXT EVO suits your criteria.

[RyanR]

6 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

IMO the superiority of neutral trim is up to debate.

I learned recently that the pilots of the blue angels demonstration team trim their planes tail heavy at all times during the show. This is specifically done to improve the accuracy of their stick input.

 

The  thing about muscle memory is this: humans are better at memorizing the force necessary for a specific reaction, compared to memorizing stick positions. That's why the F-16 stick is a force sensing device with minimal displacement.  Now, if you've trimmed all stick forces away at your current speed and fly straight and level behind a bandit trying to shoot him,  there is very little force necessary to aim the plane.  Thus our in-built force sensing and memory system operates near its sensitivity limit and has little information to work with.  A tail- heavy trim in the same situation is feeding a good deal of force into your sensory system. Fine-tuning this input to achieve the desired effect is much easier. I've re-thought my trimming technique following the blue angels doctrine and the results are mind-blowing, especially when it comes to long range kill shots.

 

 

I got to agree. You need to trim, but trimming tail heavy is what I do as well. A truly neutral trim leaves your joystick in that nebulous position where it's not hitting any of the springs, so you have *no* feel. Plus, it's just plain weird when you're bouncing into different springs when trying to stay level. 

 

Are the high-end sticks better with the "spring" feeling than the mid-range Thrustmaster stuff? I gotta upgrade someday, but there's not room for much more than the T.16000 (meh) and rudders (sticky).

 

-Ryan

[Gambit21]

2 minutes ago, RyanR said:

 

 

I got to agree. You need to trim, but trimming tail heavy is what I do as well. A truly neutral trim leaves your joystick in that nebulous position where it's not hitting any of the springs, so you have *no* feel. Plus, it's just plain weird when you're bouncing into different springs when trying to stay level. 

 

 

Thereby negating the whole point of trim.
You just need a better stick - I don’t have this issue. (VKB Gladiator)

I highly recommend this unit.

 

In fact I never had this issue even with my old Cyborg stick 20+ years ago because it had a single vertical spring.

 

 

[Airborne506]

+1 for the gladiator it’s a great stick, for sure isn’t the most expensive out there, and made a huge difference for me (previous was Logitech extreme 3d) and I don’t do MP pretty much just career. Made the game a much more enjoyable experience. As did trackir but that’s a different kettle of fish. 

[ST_Catchov]

9 hours ago, Lusekofte said:

You cannot stay enthused by any sim alone in the long run

 

Burnout. 3 years is about my limit before I need a break and prioritise other things not gaming related. That's where I am right now. It's been a consistent trend. Once that 3 year mark is reached, whammo, the fire goes out.

[RyanR]

On 12/9/2022 at 11:52 AM, Gambit21 said:

 

Thereby negating the whole point of trim.
You just need a better stick - I don’t have this issue. (VKB Gladiator)

I highly recommend this unit.

 

In fact I never had this issue even with my old Cyborg stick 20+ years ago because it had a single vertical spring.

 

 

 

On 12/9/2022 at 12:18 PM, Airborne506 said:

+1 for the gladiator it’s a great stick, for sure isn’t the most expensive out there, and made a huge difference for me (previous was Logitech extreme 3d) and I don’t do MP pretty much just career. Made the game a much more enjoyable experience. As did trackir but that’s a different kettle of fish. 

 

 

Thanks, guys! Not sure how that flew past my radar! Very neat products. Love the triggers on the WWII stick! The throttle even has the spiffy Luftwaffe prop pitch toggle!

 

I stumbled into the Thrustmaster stuff after being frustrated with Logitech a zillion years ago. Looks like they absorbed Saitek in the 15 years that I'd been out of simming.

 

-Ryan

[Gambit21]

25 minutes ago, RyanR said:

 

 

 

Thanks, guys! Not sure how that flew past my radar! Very neat products. Love the triggers on the WWII stick! The throttle even has the spiffy Luftwaffe prop pitch toggle!

 

I stumbled into the Thrustmaster stuff after being frustrated with Logitech a zillion years ago. Looks like they absorbed Saitek in the 15 years that I'd been out of simming.

 

-Ryan

 

No worries...you'll be very happy with it.

 

 

[LukeFF]

29 minutes ago, RyanR said:

Thanks, guys! Not sure how that flew past my radar! Very neat products. Love the triggers on the WWII stick! The throttle even has the spiffy Luftwaffe prop pitch toggle!

 

I don't have the throttle, but the stick is really good. The metal trigger flips up and down like the real thing. 

[BlitzPig_EL]

You guys are talking me into a Gladiator EXP EVO.  I hope you enjoy spending my money.  

 

I think I'll get the "Space" grip though, because more buttons are more buttons.

 

I just dread the thought of re-assigning all those control inputs, but I'm sure when done it will make my old CH stick feel like a dinosaur.

[LukeFF]

1 minute ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

You guys are talking me into a Gladiator EXP EVO.  I hope you enjoy spending my money.  

 

I think I'll get the "Space" grip though, because more buttons are more buttons.

 

I just dread the thought of re-assigning all those control inputs, but I'm sure when done it will make my old CH stick feel like a dinosaur.

 

The Space grip is actually a very choice for flight sims. With so many buttons on it, you can map a lot of commands. Not to mention, I think one of the hats can be toggled between analog axis and "normal" hat mode. Very, very useful. ??

[BlitzPig_EL]

Yes, the Premium grip has a mini stick that toggles between modes, and it also comes with a spare hat if you want to install that in it's place.