Q and A with the team

[LachenKrieg]

On 10/18/2022 at 3:10 PM, No_Face said:

Oh okay, no, I'm not surprised. I just think ShampooActual's comments are the perfect example of why we should be wary of veteran testimonials and how it can be misleading to rely solely on them to make claims.

 

Here ShampooActual thinks he was killed by a Sherman head-on shot at 500m. I think he is talking about the October 15, 2022 game on FVP where he first thought he was killed by a Churchill. If we are talking about that game and if the Tiger's number on ShampooActual is 911, then he is wrong.

 

And that's very interesting because for him, the ballistics are wrong because of this death and that's the message I'm trying to get across "Be careful, before you question this or that, make sure you've made the right observations and have the right information".

 

For the "veteran" side, his message shows that someone can think they are telling the truth honestly, without any ulterior motive, but still be wrong.
That's why veteran testimonials should be taken with a grain of salt. Their testimonies bring elements but one must always try to cross-check them with other sources to confirm them.

 

The data alone, those of the engineers, are not necessarily more valuable because it is well known that there can be differences between theory and practice.

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes, on the forum, some people take ONE element to make a generalization and that's why there is a "conflict" with the developers.

 

I'm not saying that bugs are impossible and that everything works perfectly. I'm just saying that we shouldn't get carried away and assert this or that on a weak basis.

 

Sometimes the devs announce certain things and they are right not to deny it, they have more data than us. Sometimes users are right when they say there is a problem with something, usually they can prove it with several sources.

 

So you have to understand the devs when they say "Without videos, without files, we can't take your word for it, especially when on our side, our tests don't show anything abnormal".

@No_Face, again thanks for your insights, but I have to point out that you are comparing apples with oranges here. And if you want me to be completely honest, the example your giving comes across as looking almost scripted to me. I am not saying that it is, and I have never used the recording feature during MP game play so I can't say I know how it works. I have to assume you were spectating Shampoo's game play without him knowing, and you just had the intuition to know exactly what you were looking for in a match where Shampoo would ID the wrong tank to give you the perfect example of how player perceptions about game mechanics can be wrong.

 

Well okay, going with the story, so you were following Shampoo's game play and noticed he mistakes the tank that shot him, and from what direction he was hit. In Shampoo's defense, confusing the direction of incoming rounds is an easy mistake to make from inside the armored compartment of a tank, especially when rounds are coming from multiple directions. 

 

But this example has nothing to do with the concerns raised by myself and others regarding the gun/armor model.

 

To be an apples to apples comparison, the guy in the Sherman would have had to fire several penetrating rounds into the side of the Tiger with no effect. The Tiger would then realize where he is being hit from, rotate his hull and one tap the Sherman back to spawn. What your pointing out is the guy in the Tiger tank didn't realize the guy in the Sherman tank was there. In all the other concerns that were raised, the tank being shot at, and the tank doing the shooting are well known.

 

In your example, you simply accept that the round fired into the Tiger's side caused it to blow up, and this led you to automatically accept that everything seems to be working as it should be. And I think this is reasonable because like you said, the Sherman could penetrate the Tiger's side. But in a video where a Sherman continues to drive around and shoot after being penetrated several times by guns that could easily penetrate it, it is explained as being related to the angle, net code, or wrong player perception?

 

To give yet another example, compare the circumstances between what you stated with the concerns raised by other members. You said you knocked out a Sherman in a Pz IIIL from 1000 m, while others linked videos showing Sherman tanks being hit at near point-blank range but can continue to fight. To fully grasp the point being made here, compare a screenshot of an in-game Sherman at 1000 m to a screenshot of the Sherman tank at point blank range. How much does knowing the Sherman's weak spots come into play at 1000 m? And why do visible penetration marks in vital spots on a tank not matter?

 

I want to be very clear in my post here. I want Tank Crew to succeed. I bought Tank Crew to help it succeed. My current understanding based on comments from team members is that there have been updates/changes made to TC, and that it is time for me to get back to TC and the AFV simulator I so enjoyed. I will be able to reinstall TC some time over the next week, and really look forward to reporting good things here. 

 

But I also think your advice to be wary of veteran testimonials, and that we should be careful to make sure we have all the right information before we question things is an excellent suggestion. I also think it should be equally applied to the entire community, including yourself.

[No_Face]

12 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

@No_FaceAnd if you want me to be completely honest, the example your giving comes across as looking almost scripted to me.

In my arms my friend, you too are convinced that the earth is flat. ?

No seriously, the game took place on the 15th of October, you created this topic on the 17th and it still crossed your mind that this was all a plot.

 

If I recorded this part, it has absolutely nothing to do with @ShampooActual, it has to do, indirectly with @SCG_judgedeath3. Indeed, with the DDs talking about the upcoming Churchill release, I started reading the forum again, including the part about TC, and SCG_judgedeath3 had posted a video of his second Tank Ace Challenge. I had done one after his first one and I liked it. So he made me want to get back into the game in order to do this challenge too. SCG_judgedeath3 did it with a Pz III M, so I decided to try to do it with a Pz III L (without success for the moment).

 

Flight recorders, as I explained to @moustache, only record the present, not the past. Since I can't see the future, I can't know if I will succeed in this challenge so as soon as I join the server, I automatically start the flight recorder, just in case. This way I can make a video and prove the honesty of the challenge success by showing my appearance in game, as well as my return to base at the end of the challenge.
By the way, in my first video, when I select the replay, you can see that there are several recordings of this game.

 

In the game, I was close to the Churchill that shot at ShampooActual, but I didn't see the action because my commander was dead. Nevertheless, I managed to locate the action so when ShampooActual mentioned this fight I knew I probably had the recording of it. I also have a screenshot of the chat at the time of ShampooActual's death, the time is indicated in the chat, so I could easily locate the event and by watching the replay I understood what really happened.

 

12 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

But this example has nothing to do with the concerns raised by myself and others regarding the gun/armor model.

Your question is about the reliability of the DM (I quote "Again, my question goes back to the accuracy of the DM in Tank Crew?") so of course my answer doesn't prove ALL the reliability of the DM, but it at least shows that some shots that seemed incorrect, are not.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

To be an apples to apples comparison, the guy in the Sherman would have had to fire several penetrating rounds into the side of the Tiger with no effect. The Tiger would then realize where he is being hit from, rotate his hull and one tap the Sherman back to spawn.

Why ? The sherman fired a shell penetrating the ammunition rack, it is normal (I think) that the tank explodes.

 

12 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

 But in a video where a Sherman continues to drive around and shoot after being penetrated several times by guns that could easily penetrate it, it is explained as being related to the angle, net code, or wrong player perception?

What video are you talking about?

 

12 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

 

while others linked videos showing Sherman tanks being hit at near point-blank range but can continue to fight.

What video are you talking about?

 

12 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

To fully grasp the point being made here, compare a screenshot of an in-game Sherman at 1000 m to a screenshot of the Sherman tank at point blank range. How much does knowing the Sherman's weak spots come into play at 1000 m?

A shot at 1,000m in a weak and/or vital point will have more consequences than a shot in a non weak and/or non vital point.

 

12 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

And why do visible penetration marks in vital spots on a tank not matter?

I don't know, I would need the game file for the developers to take a closer look.
They keep asking for files but nobody gives them any.

 

 

12 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

 I also think it should be equally applied to the entire community, including yourself.

Of course, and I'm perfectly okay with that.
That's why, unlike many people who complain, I bring evidence.

The other participants are free to refute it, maybe, because I am only human, did I miss something too.

 

English is not my native language, I use a translator. I hope that I have understood all of your comments and I hope that you will understand my answers.

[ShampooX]

And the worst part of that whole experience @No_Face recorded was that about 20 seconds before the engagement a German flier reported the position of the Churchill on the road.  I didn't believe him and even questioned it because I could see nothing in the trees.  While I was typing in the chat I must have driven right up on the Sherman and never even saw him.  Then the shooting started.  As you can tell by my stats I try very hard to stay alive during the campaigns on FVP and focus my play around the "live target areas" - so getting schwacked like that was very disheartening.  I was also just telling my two accompanying PZ-IV's that I thought we had a clear shot to the CP since all the PvP fighting appeared to be behind us.  We were pushing down the road hard.  That ambush was completely unexpected.

 

But that's why FVP is the best server for as close to the real thing as one can get.

 

@No_Face so is that your thing then?  Just recording the games?  I notice you have 6.5 hours on the server with no activity stats.  Thats actually kind of cool because it might be nice to have a place to go to check things out when we want to see something.  I almost never use CTRL+R.

 

Keep up the good work bro.

[No_Face]

32 minutes ago, ShampooActual said:

@No_Face so is that your thing then?  Just recording the games? 

Haha, no. What I'm looking for is PvP, I'm not a war reporter.

 

Currently, I'm playing with the Pz III L, so I have to work around it.
And going around carefully takes time.

I try to play in ambush to reduce the distances and increase my chances of destroying the opposing tanks.

 

The problem with the ambush is that when there is no one passing by, it's just boring  ?

 

If you look closely, on my 6 hours 30 there are 4 games. 2 of 30 minutes, 1 of almost 4 hours during which I made a lot of road to circumvent.

Once in ambush, there was no one (I should have chosen the other CP) and inevitably, when you drive almost 1 hour, wait for almost another hour, you don't necessarily want to move since there are no human targets nearby (i.e. I avoid getting too close to the spawns). So I just picked up a book and checked the screen from time to time.

 

For the 4th part, it was the best, I managed to approach the CP then I saw 3 enemies, (those you met on the way), 1 AA gas, 1 Sherman and 1 Churchill . But as they were a little far away, I was afraid of not being able to destroy them. So I chased them, it should have been a wonderful moment, epic BUT no, the Churchill checked its 6 o'clock and saw me (maybe warned by a plane?), I hid in the trees and the fight began. He incapacitated (but not killed (1)) me so I watched him through the small spaces (2). He seemed not to see me, that made me laugh (afterwards, I just think he must have thought that I was dead). It was finally a Sherman (another I believe) that finished me off later.

 

1 :

 

2 :

 

(Besides, it was I who warned him of the presence of the Churchill ?)

 

32 minutes ago, ShampooActual said:

I notice you have 6.5 hours on the server with no activity stats. 

I play by period. So I don't have any recent stats, but I did. (These are not extraordinary stats, but I have a few hours on the server) ?

 

Spoiler

http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/fr/tankman/15270/No_Face/?tour=46

http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/fr/tankman/15270/No_Face/?tour=43

http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/fr/tankman/15270/No_Face/?tour=42

http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/fr/tankman/15270/No_Face/?tour=41

http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/fr/tankman/15270/No_Face/?tour=40

http://stats.virtualpilots.fi:8000/fr/tankman/15270/No_Face/?tour=39

 

 

32 minutes ago, ShampooActual said:

 

Thats actually kind of cool because it might be nice to have a place to go to check things out when we want to see something.

It's funny because I thought today to create a topic where people would put their flight recorders (specifying the server) in order to allow players wishing to do so to check facts, or retrieve images for screenshots or example videos. But since it would follow the point of view of the player who recorded, we would never have a first person view of the other players (but it can still be useful).
 

Edited October 21, 2022 by No_Face

[LachenKrieg]

29 minutes ago, No_Face said:

In my arms my friend, you too are convinced that the earth is flat. ?

No seriously, the game took place on the 15th of October, you created this topic on the 17th and it still crossed your mind that this was all a plot.

 

If I recorded this part, it has absolutely nothing to do with @ShampooActual, it has to do, indirectly with @SCG_judgedeath3. Indeed, with the DDs talking about the upcoming Churchill release, I started reading the forum again, including the part about TC, and SCG_judgedeath3 had posted a video of his second Tank Ace Challenge. I had done one after his first one and I liked it. So he made me want to get back into the game in order to do this challenge too. SCG_judgedeath3 did it with a Pz III M, so I decided to try to do it with a Pz III L (without success for the moment).

 

Flight recorders, as I explained to @moustache, only record the present, not the past. Since I can't see the future, I can't know if I will succeed in this challenge so as soon as I join the server, I automatically start the flight recorder, just in case. This way I can make a video and prove the honesty of the challenge success by showing my appearance in game, as well as my return to base at the end of the challenge.
By the way, in my first video, when I select the replay, you can see that there are several recordings of this game.

 

In the game, I was close to the Churchill that shot at ShampooActual, but I didn't see the action because my commander was dead. Nevertheless, I managed to locate the action so when ShampooActual mentioned this fight I knew I probably had the recording of it. I also have a screenshot of the chat at the time of ShampooActual's death, the time is indicated in the chat, so I could easily locate the event and by watching the replay I understood what really happened.

 

Your question is about the reliability of the DM (I quote "Again, my question goes back to the accuracy of the DM in Tank Crew?") so of course my answer doesn't prove ALL the reliability of the DM, but it at least shows that some shots that seemed incorrect, are not.

 

 

 

Why ? The sherman fired a shell penetrating the ammunition rack, it is normal (I think) that the tank explodes.

 

What video are you talking about?

 

What video are you talking about?

 

A shot at 1,000m in a weak and/or vital point will have more consequences than a shot in a non weak and/or non vital point.

 

I don't know, I would need the game file for the developers to take a closer look.
They keep asking for files but nobody gives them any.

 

 

Of course, and I'm perfectly okay with that.
That's why, unlike many people who complain, I bring evidence.

The other participants are free to refute it, maybe, because I am only human, did I miss something too.

 

English is not my native language, I use a translator. I hope that I have understood all of your comments and I hope that you will understand my answers.

No sorry to disappoint, but there are no flat-earthers here!

 

Yes the recording you made predates the start of this thread, but this discussion has been carried in numerous threads for well over a year now, which predates the recording you made. I believe you even contributed to some of those discussion, but your signature indicates you have been here since 2014 so you were at least around when the various discussion took place.

 

But what I said No_face is your example looks scripted to me. I also said that I never really used the record feature in MP game play so I don't know exactly how it works, or the features it offers. Some games allow you to record just your game play. Some allow you to record other players too. Some require that other players have to first allow spectators in their settings.

 

Before answering to your post though I'm interested to know when you are on a MP server with 30 other players and you record your game session, can you go back into the recording to see what the other 30 players did? I guess I will have to try it out, because TBH I really don't know how it works in IL2.

 

But back to your post.

 

Yes its true, I reported having problems with the DM in Tank Crew as did a number of other players. I linked videos of the things I was seeing in-game, as did some of the other players. But again I will repeat, the example you gave has nothing to do with any of the issues raised about problems with the DM. 

 

I get how they might look like the same thing to you on the surface, but go back and read your own post because you aren't accomplishing what you think you are.

 

First of all, Shampoo isn't arguing about the results of the shot to the side of his Tiger. He just didn't realize the Sherman was there. No one said the Sherman couldn't penetrate the Tiger there, or that the Tiger should not have blown up. 

 

All your example is pointing out is that Shampoo didn't realize the Sherman was there. That has nothing to do with whether or not there is a bug with the DM. It might show a bug in Shampoo's situational awareness, but it has nothing to do with in-game mechanics.

 

The results from the Sherman's shot to the side of the Tiger are reasonable and to be expected. I don't believe anyone here is arguing that. On seeing your video, Shampoo himself thanked you and said he felt much better knowing what actually happened.

 

But you seem to be confusing/mixing up two separate issues. Shampoo thinking that the kill must have come from the front because he had already visualized shots from that direction is not the same thing as someone claiming there is a problem with the DM because a shot he made was incorrect. So your example does nothing to show shots that seem incorrect because the issue is about situational awareness, not the correctness of the shot/DM.

 

The answer to your question of why should have become clear by now, but I will try to explain again because of the language barrier. The example you gave is not an apples to apples comparison of the issues previously raised because it has nothing to do with in-game mechanics. Your example would be similar to the issues previously raised had the guy in the Sherman fired several penetrating rounds into the side of the Tiger with no effect. He could then post a video of the match to complain how his shots should have killed the Tiger, but did nothing. But unfortunately, your example is nothing more than a case of mistaken identity. Shampoo thought the kill shot came from the front. Shampoo's mistaken identity is not a DM issue.

 

Regarding the videos I mentioned, you would have to go back and find them for yourself, but I posted more than one. Another poster going by the name "GHAlLLIGER" or something like that also linked several videos, but I haven't seen him on the forum for some time. And among others, Tigre88 has also posted several videos.

 

In all of those videos, the question was never which tank fired the shot, it was always about a tanks ability, usually a Sherman, to keep fighting after being penetrated several times in critical places. Obviously to be the most informative, it would be much better if these reports also included the registered damage status of the tank being shot, and admittedly most of the reports did not.

 

Regarding weak points at 1000 m, the point I was trying to make was about visible detail. Weak points on a tank are usually small areas that require you to get closer to visualize. The detail and weak points in a tanks armor that you see at 200 m are likely invisible at 1000 m. When shooting a target 1000 m away with a WWII gun sight, you are more likely going to aim more for the central mass than you would aim for the drivers visor for example.     

 

So in conclusion the evidence you brought shows not only how, but why Shampoo made the honest mistake of thinking he was being hit from the front. The evidence others posted in relation to the DM showed a tank still driving around shooting after it had been penetrated several times in critical areas. I am not claiming that any of this evidence proves absolute that there is, or was a problem with the DM, at this point I'm simply trying to help you understand how the two scenarios are different. 

[No_Face]

First of all, thanks for the clarification.

 

About the videos, these are indeed the ones I had in mind. I remember at least 2 And the problem is that these videos are almost a year and a half old.

The second "problem", as other people have in another topic, is that we have never seen so many people talking about the game, when these people do not play it.

 

People playing the game today don't seem to complain about a Sherman soaking up shells.

 

It would be interesting to make a topic: "Do you think you are having problems with the Sherman (or any other tank) in terms of DM currently?", so we will see the number of people affected and we will see their nickname.

 

In your case, if I understood correctly, you will be able to play the game again in 2 weeks. I suggest that we leave it at that for the moment and then that you come back to us once you have redone a few games to tell us if the problem persists or if it seems to you to be resolved.

 

By the way, I advise you to activate the flight recorder (Left Ctrl + R), in order to be able to show us more effectively the problems you will encounter if this were to happen.
 

Just remember to delete the flight recorders from time to time, it can end up weighing heavily on the hard drive.

 

And to answer your question on this subject: Thanks to the flight recorder we can observe all the units present in the game (players and AI) since the launch of the flight recorder so if I arrive in a multiplayer game that started an hour ago and I recorded, at the time of viewing, I will only see the events since activation, not what happened before , on the other hand, I could follow any player (only in exterior view). There is no need for any authorization.

[LachenKrieg]

1 hour ago, No_Face said:

First of all, thanks for the clarification.

 

About the videos, these are indeed the ones I had in mind. I remember at least 2 And the problem is that these videos are almost a year and a half old.

The second "problem", as other people have in another topic, is that we have never seen so many people talking about the game, when these people do not play it.

 

People playing the game today don't seem to complain about a Sherman soaking up shells.

 

It would be interesting to make a topic: "Do you think you are having problems with the Sherman (or any other tank) in terms of DM currently?", so we will see the number of people affected and we will see their nickname.

 

In your case, if I understood correctly, you will be able to play the game again in 2 weeks. I suggest that we leave it at that for the moment and then that you come back to us once you have redone a few games to tell us if the problem persists or if it seems to you to be resolved.

 

By the way, I advise you to activate the flight recorder (Left Ctrl + R), in order to be able to show us more effectively the problems you will encounter if this were to happen.
 

Just remember to delete the flight recorders from time to time, it can end up weighing heavily on the hard drive.

 

And to answer your question on this subject: Thanks to the flight recorder we can observe all the units present in the game (players and AI) since the launch of the flight recorder so if I arrive in a multiplayer game that started an hour ago and I recorded, at the time of viewing, I will only see the events since activation, not what happened before , on the other hand, I could follow any player (only in exterior view). There is no need for any authorization.

Your welcome, and thank you for informing me on the flight recorder bit. I have used it in SP before, but never realized that I could actually use it to view all the other player/Ai units on the map. I thought it was just a recording of my game play, but that's very cool!

 

I do realize the amount of time that has passed, but the issues raised were never actually acknowledge to the best of my knowledge. So I'm not using TC because I don't want to, its because it became unplayable for me. If the issues I was experiencing have really been addressed, then I look forward to getting back into Tank Crew.