New Pico Neo4 standalone device: Pancake lenses, 2160x2160 per eye and 429€.

[BOO]

6 minutes ago, Youtch said:

I have the same specs, and G2 runs good with openxr and scaling at 75% and high settings.

Thank you  Youtch 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

1 hour ago, BOO said:

Thanks. I can get hold of a new G2 for £600 which is in my budget. My concern however is if my 5600x /3080 will run the game with appealing graphics. 
 

The pico still interests my though. Perhaps I can persuade  my lad he needs one ? 
 

 

Just wait. There's no (informed) decision you can make now.

 

Wait till we have tested it. If it's good, we'll put it in a guide how to set up step by step.

[simfan2015]

I pre-ordered the PICO 4 but I am getting cold feet !

Most PC VR questions people ask the YouTube VR 'experts' get unanswered !

+100 people have asked for testing USB-C connection, but no reviewer truly does ... they simply come up with excuses.

Asked whether it is good or not vs other headsets is always ... yes, but in fact no, maybe.

One thing is clear ... it seems the previous PICO 3 Link is better for sole PC VR use.

Reading what 56_RAF_... had to report about this is makes me wonder ... no, not even that one !

This seems to be a company targetting the Chinese market.

Oculus, whether we like Meta or not and even if hardware specs are below par in 2022 may still be the best option in general.

If software is a mess ... my experience is going to be a mess.

Software and software support makes or brakes a product.

5 years fom now China may take over the world, but not ... today it seems ? !?

Edited October 8, 2022 by simfan2015

[dburne]

PICO 4 specs are not all that impressive to me either, but I am in NA as well and not in their market audience anyway. Reverb G2 and Quest 2 are well known tried and true entities.  I mean seriously no one even has a PICO 4 yet.

[simfan2015]

@dburne ... If they have it, they better send it back immediately ? ... OMG ...

Chinese QA or ... cr*p ?

 

ByteDance-backed PICO Recalls PICO 4 Packages ...

https://pandaily.com/bytedance-backed-pico-recalls-pico-4-packages/

[simfan2015]

The Arpara 5K Tethered Vr Headset makes even the latest PICO 4 headset look like being from the stone age ! ...

Unfortunately I can not find it anywhere (locally) in Europe ...

https://www.arparaland.com/

 

Hoping now for the intro of the Quest ... 3 or maybe that small new HTC VR headset !?

Edited October 8, 2022 by simfan2015

[dburne]

9 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

The Arpara 5K Tethered Vr Headset makes even the latest PICO 4 headset look like being from the stone age ! ...

Unfortunately I can not find it anywhere (locally) in Europe ...

https://www.arparaland.com/

 

Hoping now for the intro of the Quest ... 3 or maybe that small new HTC VR headset !?

 

I thought I heard they went belly up but can't say for sure.

[chiliwili69]

On 10/6/2022 at 11:51 PM, dburne said:

Personally I just don't see it being much better than Reverb G2 but who knows

 

Personally these are the advantages that I expect over the G2 based on what I read:

 

- Better edge-to-edge clarity (This was one the three key reasons to discard the G2 over the Index. More here)

- Better FOV (table above, even better vertical FOV than Index)

- Less GPU demand (although they have same resolution the pancake lenses need less internal supersampling

- Less weight at front --> better confort for long sessions

- Less glare or good rays (although this is something not affecting to me a lot)

- Able to run at 72 Hz (still to see how it works, the G2 can also run at 60 Hz, but some people reported issues)

 

On the other hand I expect a big drawback on the Pico 4, it is the quality of the compressed image even using the USB-C cable. This alone can neutralize all the pros above.

Another detail is the lack of proper audio in the Pico 4 and the lack of 3.5mm jack.

Since this is really personal my only option is to test it myself and decide.

 

Why Pico doesn´t produce a variant of the Pico 4 but without battery, XR2 and with display port!!. It could be even cheaper!.

[dburne]

3 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

Why Pico doesn´t produce a variant of the Pico 4 but without battery, XR2 and with display port!!. It could be even cheaper!.

 

Probably can thank Meta for that, more of a race to the bottom really. Which is fine to an extent as it makes it more affordable for more folks. 

I personally do not get it - but I will never be a stand alone VR enthusiast. And I got a very nice GPU with three display ports available and I intend to use them for native PC-VR as long as there are headsets offered for that.

[simfan2015]

40 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

Why Pico doesn´t produce a variant of the Pico 4 but without battery, XR2 and with display port!!. It could be even cheaper!.

Hold your horses !

 

A better consumer PICO is reportedly coming before the end of 2022 : 

The Neo 4 pro game/play edition.

https://www.roadtovr.com/pico-4-pro-enterprise-eye-tracking-face/

 

Whether it will come to the US and/or Europe is not yet clear though.

 

I now quote from the texts " ...

Yesterday in the release stream for neo 4 they also announced the pro game/play edition for December for 3799/3999

(preorder price i guess ~550/580€).

Images are in a r/virtualreality from a burried post from yesterday.

DownloadVR podcast also mentioned 4 pro will only exist as 4 enterprise in western market ..."

 

[dburne]

1 hour ago, simfan2015 said:

Hold your horses !

 

A better consumer PICO is reportedly coming before the end of 2022 : 

The Neo 4 pro game/play edition.

https://www.roadtovr.com/pico-4-pro-enterprise-eye-tracking-face/

 

Whether it will come to the US and/or Europe is not yet clear though.

 

I now quote from the texts " ...

Yesterday in the release stream for neo 4 they also announced the pro game/play edition for December for 3799/3999

(preorder price i guess ~550/580€).

Images are in a r/virtualreality from a burried post from yesterday.

DownloadVR podcast also mentioned 4 pro will only exist as 4 enterprise in western market ..."

 

 

 

Taken from that article:

 

Quote

Aside from eye and face-tracking, it appears the Pico 4 Pro will be essentially the same hardware otherwise, including a Snapdragon XR2 processor, 2,160 × 2,160 (4.7MP) per-eye resolution, and pancake lenses with a claimed 105° field-of-view.

 

Seems primary difference is addition of eye and face tracking, still (sadly) primarily a stand alone headset powered by the XR-2 chip. And it is being touted more as an Enterprise headset than a consumer. Probably to compete with the upcoming Quest Pro. For flight sims I do not see this being an advantage at all over the consumer headset. Unless they work in foveated rendering with the eye tracking which I highly doubt. Not even sure Quest Pro will.

Edited October 8, 2022 by dburne

[simfan2015]

31 minutes ago, dburne said:

foveated rendering with the eye tracking

Would be supported.

In any case, I will cancel my pre-order and wait for better to come.

I just also pre-ordered the IL-2 Churchill ... and that I will not cancel.

This tank will be great in ... VR !!!

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Dynamic foveated rendering with eye tracking would not be supported by IL-2 (or another flight simulation). The benefit of the Pro over the normal version is zero from what I can tell (unless it magically gets a DP which I doubt). We're primarily an IL-2 community, but of course you can play different games with it which could support it. Here you find a list of games for it: https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/nvidia-vrss-2-dynamic-foveated-rendering-no-assembly-required/ to which you can certainly add BoneLab as well now.

 

P.S. The XR-2 chip is necessary because it can take on decompression very well. What I really miss though would be WiFi 6E support. Why stay with WiFi 6, and not go all the way..? 

Edited October 8, 2022 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[dburne]

Actually eye tracking with foveated rendering does work with MSFS 2020 with the Open XR runtime. The developer of Open XR Toolkit ( MS employee) added it though. Now if we could just get more flight sims using Open XR runtime.

Edited October 8, 2022 by dburne

[simfan2015]

I learned from you guys here that the rather big hp reverb g2 is, unfortunately, still the way to go for flight sims. If only any thethered vr headset would be as small as the HTC flow! 

Maybe that rumoured new HTC headset, but that will probably only be targeting AR and not SteamVR !? 

 Because I too would only play SteamVR capable sims, Quest type all in one headsets are rather useless... if not for their smaller sizes. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by simfan2015

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

11 hours ago, dburne said:

Actually eye tracking with foveated rendering does work with MSFS 2020 with the Open XR runtime. The developer of Open XR Toolkit ( MS employee) added it though. Now if we could just get more flight sims using Open XR runtime.

Yes of course, we know that one Flight Sim does it, but not in IL-2 BoS nor CloD nor in DCS nor XPlane nor Xyz.?

 

One request to you: It would be appropriate if a reply is seen in context to the topic and not probed for vectors of attack, be it intentional or unintentional. I'd rather take part in a vivid chat in which I don't need to watch my back all the time, and close any gaps in an armor wrapped around every post. 

3 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

I learned from you guys here that the rather big hp reverb g2 is, unfortunately, still the way to go for flight sims. If only any thethered vr headset would be as small as the HTC flow! 

Maybe that rumoured new HTC headset, but that will probably only be targeting AR and not SteamVR !? 

 Because I too would only play SteamVR capable sims, Quest type all in one headsets are rather useless... if not for their smaller sizes. 

No no, you didn't learn anything yet! Virtually everyone here mentioned one way or the other that we cannot assess the situation realistically yet.

 

But if you want to really buy an as-new G2 and you're in Europe, send me a PM for details. ? ?

Edited October 9, 2022 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[simfan2015]

SCG that is very tempting, but I didn't get a g2 because people here complaining about the size, weight, sweath and especially the cables. 

I am on the sideline but am going to jump in too as soon as some small, yet high end solution is introduced.

I will wait for reviews of il-2 and dcs flightsims with the pico 4, but I no longer will hold my breath! 

[dburne]

3 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

SCG that is very tempting, but I didn't get a g2 because people here complaining about the size, weight, sweath and especially the cables. 

I am on the sideline but am going to jump in too as soon as some small, yet high end solution is introduced.

I will wait for reviews of il-2 and dcs flightsims with the pico 4, but I no longer will hold my breath! 

 

Of the headsets I have I found the Reverb G2 to be about the smallest I think. 

[simfan2015]

The discomfort of this is probably the main reason VR is still not mainstream. But all this may soon change with oled pancake lenses and faster processors 

.. Fingers crossed. 

Dburne, what were you planning to buy instead of your G2? 

Edited October 9, 2022 by simfan2015

[dburne]

10 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

The discomfort of this is probably the main reason VR is still not mainstream. But all this may soon change with oled pancake lenses and faster processors 

.. Fingers crossed. 

Dburne, what were you planning to buy instead of your G2? 

 

My VR progression history:

Rift - Rift S - Quest - Index - Reverb G2 - Vive Pro 2 - Varjo Aero.

 

Probably of all the above as they came stock the Reverb G2 was the most comfortable for me. The only one I regretted getting was the Quest - ended up giving it to my granddaughter. I upgraded both the Vive Pro 2 and Aero with a Studio Form comfort strap which really helped them.  I absolutely love my Aero and is only headset I use now but bang for the buck  - Reverb G2 wins hands down imho. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by dburne

[BOO]

For a lot of us flat earthers, it’s really to make that leap of faith into VR when virtually everything we read and hear is “it’s the best BUT…”

 

In the case of the G2 it’s the Fov and sweet spot.

 

I’m imagining something akin to peering out of a snorkel, being very aware of the edges and having something akin to the effect that tv shows pull when the camera is giving dogs/aliens/vampires viewpoint when it comes to the sweet spot. 

 

From actual experience of making that VR journey, how much of an issue is it in reality?

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by BOO

[dburne]

5 minutes ago, BOO said:

For a lot of us flat earthers, it’s really to make that leap of faith into VR when virtually everything we read and hear is “it’s the best BUT…”

 

In the case of the G2 it’s the Fov and sweet spot.

 

I’m imagining something akin to peering out of a snorkel, being very aware of the edges and having something akin to the effect that tv shows pull when the camera is giving dogs/aliens/vampires viewpoint when it comes to the sweet spot. 

 

From actual experience of making that VR journey, how much of an issue is it in reality?

 

 

This is going to be a very personal thing. For some folks that would really bother them and for others not so much.

I am in the latter, when I put my VR headset on and begin the day's flying session I literally escape reality and live in that virtual world. And I find myself constantly amazed by it really. I don't think about the FOV as I move my head around and marvel at the world outside of my canopy. Sure yes I wish my Aero and other headsets had a wider FOV but it was not something I thought much about when actually using the headset. I have an Index which probably outside of Pimax has the best FOV offered, but I would use first the Reverb G2, then Vive Pro 2 and now the Aero over my Index totally for the much better picture clarity. 

 

I am retired and spend a bunch of hours in VR with flight sims on practically a daily basis - kind of sidelined here short term as am recovering from spinal surgery but will be back at it here soon now thank goodness. But normally I spend many hours every week in VR with flight sims.

 

Unfortunately the only way to know for sure is to actually try it. If one is an Amazon Prime member that is a no brainer as you can try the headset and return if you do not like it. Assuming it is a headset you can get from Amazon not all are offered there. I guess some European countries have laws to that effect as well. 

[BOO]

Thanks Don for taking the time to reply.  I think you are right. It is a case of thinking too much instead of trying one. At the end of the day I can get sucked into a screen sat in the middle of a room with family and dogs doing what family and dogs do. If that doesn’t break immersion I don’t know why I worry! 

[simfan2015]

@Dburne ... wow the Aero, but that is about 2500 EUR !?

I'm sure you will enjoy that one though !

Thank You so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences !

[dburne]

4 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

@Dburne ... wow the Aero, but that is about 2500 EUR !?

I'm sure you will enjoy that one though !

Thank You so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences !

 

You are most welcome!

Yeah I have been running it since late Jan. and absolutely love it.  Whether it is worth the cost though is debatable. I have no regrets getting it but certainly would not recommend for a first VR headset.

Edited October 9, 2022 by dburne

[simfan2015]

@dburne. Since I have never even seen / tried VR is my life I would indeed test things with a cheaper VR headset.

Maybe I can't even stand it at all and ... then have to hand it to the kids.

I have had a good look on the Web regarding the Aero and ... WOW !

[simfan2015]

I just learned that the USB ports of the ASUS motherboards (I have an ASUS Z690 Hero) are possibly incompatible with the HP Reverb G2 !

That closes the door on a very tempting offer !

It used to be the case with previous Gen ASUS mobos, but I have not found information regarding HP Revebr compatibility with the the 2021 ASUS Z690 series. 

 

BTW I have had problems already with the 'advanced' USB 4 /thunderbold capable Mobo ports of the Z690 Hero motherboard

... FWIW the USB ports of my Z690 Hero tend to be slower than those of another 8 year old HP PC ! 

Edited October 9, 2022 by simfan2015

[WIS-Redcoat]

22 hours ago, simfan2015 said:

I learned from you guys here that the rather big hp reverb g2 is, unfortunately, still the way to go for flight sims. If only any thethered vr headset would be as small as the HTC flow! 

Maybe that rumoured new HTC headset, but that will probably only be targeting AR and not SteamVR !? 

 Because I too would only play SteamVR capable sims, Quest type all in one headsets are rather useless... if not for their smaller sizes. 

I suggest you buy it with confidence.  Is it perfect?  No, but none of them are perfect.

 

The G2 is light as a feather and fantastic resolution for the money.  If flight sim enthusiasts here are dogging it,  I would examine what they assert to value and it will normally be some unique metric that they expound to be critical for them.  These are the HTC guys and people still using index and pimax.  It’s pretty universally clear that the best over-all sim headset today is the G2 and unfortunately I don’t see that changing in the near term.

 

It will not be the pico, that I assure you.

  

 

P.S.  I have a ASUS 690 and I didn’t seem to have any issues, but that was back in January.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by WIS-Redcoat

[Youtch]

We just need to wait for a reverb G3 with pancake lenses to tackle the issue of the small sweet spot.

[simfan2015]

Thank you all for the valuable information !

It is clear to me now that there is no perfect solution yet.

What I personally think of all this is that PC VR will never become mainstream as long as it 

 can't be plug-and-play.

The Sony PS VR2 will hopefully allow easy VR play, but buying a PS5 for .. IL-2 is of course a no-go !

(and BTW the PS5 is sold out over here, as always)

Edited October 10, 2022 by simfan2015

[Bando]

15 minutes ago, simfan2015 said:

Thank you all for the valuable information !

It is clear to me now that there is no perfect solution yet.

What I personally think of all this is that PC VR will never become mainstream as long as it 

 can't be plug-and-play.

The perfect solution will never exist with so many people/wishes.
About the plug and play part: Purchased a Reverb G2 about 4-5 weeks ago and had it up and running (IL2 in VR) in less then half an hour.
After downloading some more stuff and some great "how to's" I installed openXr for WMR, necksaver and voice attack, ditching the need for SteamVR, (although that was not hard to install either).

I will never go back to a flatscreen for flightsims!
You're totally right in the device not being P&P, but it was not hard to do at all for me, and I am no PC guru at all.

I hope you'll jump on that VR wagon as well. It's great!

[BOO]

Well it appears that part of my brain that for the longest time resisted VR has finally been convinced that flight sims are simply no longer frustrating enough. So VR is going to become a thing for me one way or another. 

 

So...looking around the forums it appears Open XR is a "thing" - one thing I notice on some set up vidos was the need for Steam users to install both steam and the game on the operating system drive. Cant say Im fan of that but there we go.

 

If it is the case, I presume that I can set up a symlink to the game folder and, ultimately keep the game on a separate drive?

[simfan2015]

"Purchased a Reverb G2 about 4-5 weeks ago and had it up and running (IL2 in VR) in less then half an hour."

That sounds promising !!!

If I look at the PICO 4 youtube vids though people sure do not seem to be able to accomplished this in 30 " !

I don't need standalone VR gaming, only PC VR (IL-2, DCS, Assetto Corsa), so in that regard too the HP Reverb G2 does seem the perfect choice, and not ... the PICO 4.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by simfan2015

[dburne]

32 minutes ago, BOO said:

Well it appears that part of my brain that for the longest time resisted VR has finally been convinced that flight sims are simply no longer frustrating enough. So VR is going to become a thing for me one way or another. 

 

So...looking around the forums it appears Open XR is a "thing" - one thing I notice on some set up vidos was the need for Steam users to install both steam and the game on the operating system drive. Cant say Im fan of that but there we go.

 

If it is the case, I presume that I can set up a symlink to the game folder and, ultimately keep the game on a separate drive?

 

You only need Steam installed to get Steam VR. No need to run Steam after initial setup for Steam VR.

I continue to use Steam VR for both IL-2 and DCS and never launch Steam. I just like the simplicity of the Steam VR interface.

I would suggest new users start out the same and get used to it before migrating to Open XR mod with the Open XR Toolkit. Lot more stuff to learn with the Toolkit to run in Open XR. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by dburne

[dburne]

On 10/8/2022 at 1:19 PM, chiliwili69 said:

 

Personally these are the advantages that I expect over the G2 based on what I read:

 

- Better edge-to-edge clarity (This was one the three key reasons to discard the G2 over the Index. More here)

- Better FOV (table above, even better vertical FOV than Index)

- Less GPU demand (although they have same resolution the pancake lenses need less internal supersampling

- Less weight at front --> better confort for long sessions

- Less glare or good rays (although this is something not affecting to me a lot)

- Able to run at 72 Hz (still to see how it works, the G2 can also run at 60 Hz, but some people reported issues)

 

On the other hand I expect a big drawback on the Pico 4, it is the quality of the compressed image even using the USB-C cable. This alone can neutralize all the pros above.

Another detail is the lack of proper audio in the Pico 4 and the lack of 3.5mm jack.

Since this is really personal my only option is to test it myself and decide.

 

Why Pico doesn´t produce a variant of the Pico 4 but without battery, XR2 and with display port!!. It could be even cheaper!.

 

@chiliwili69

 

If you decide to stick with your Index longer after trying the Pico you can always get in on the Kickstarter for a wireless adapter from Nofio if that is a big thing for you:

https://www.roadtovr.com/valve-index-nofio-transmitter-kickstarter/

[chiliwili69]

4 hours ago, dburne said:

If you decide to stick with your Index longer after trying the Pico you can always get in on the Kickstarter for a wireless adapter from Nofio if that is a big thing for you:

 

Thank you Don for the note.

But going wireless with the Index is something I never considered since for a seated experience the cable doesn´t bother me.

IL-2 is the only game I play when I can afford 2-3 hours of my time, no other games really.

I still need to see with my eyes the quality of the compressed image of the Pico 4 , using all options (cable/wireless, Stream Assitant/Virtual Desktop, etc).

PD:I hope you recover soon from your surgery and enjoy your VR flights again.

[simfan2015]

The more I read and see about the PICO 4 the more I am convinced it is simply not ... ready, in any way.

It is very obvious why we don't see any vid about wired SteamVR connection ... it is not yet available in those PICO 4 DEMO units of the early 'reviewers'.

Reading that it would cost 10-20 percent of the graphics cards to compress the images makes me even more think

 true wired PC VR solutions, like the HP Recerb G2 of course are most probably still the way to go for now for flightsim VR.

  

[chiliwili69]

 

[dburne]

1 hour ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

Thank you Don for the note.

But going wireless with the Index is something I never considered since for a seated experience the cable doesn´t bother me.

IL-2 is the only game I play when I can afford 2-3 hours of my time, no other games really.

I still need to see with my eyes the quality of the compressed image of the Pico 4 , using all options (cable/wireless, Stream Assitant/Virtual Desktop, etc).

PD:I hope you recover soon from your surgery and enjoy your VR flights again.

 

Thanks much! It is a long slow process but I get better with each passing day. Hopefully I can get back to enjoying my flight sims again here soon.

 

 

15 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

 

Wow watching that video I would probably pick the more well established Quest 2 myself.

Edited October 10, 2022 by dburne

[Customizer171]

On 10/10/2022 at 10:37 AM, Youtch said:

We just need to wait for a reverb G3 with pancake lenses to tackle the issue of the small sweet spot.

 

To me, it made a big difference when I installed the inserts from VrOptician. Before I was very disappointed by the small sweetspot, but now, that is not an issue anymore ?