Question about the flight model

[BalticDude]

I heard a while ago that when Flying Circus released, they simplified the flight model so the sim was more accessible to those newer players and those who don't play Rise of Flight, as well as being easier to fly in VR. Is this true or are the flight models exactly the same from Rise of Flight? My friend says he definitely can tell a difference with the flight models and prefers Rise of Flight. Can someone clear this up for me? Thanks.

[LukeFF]

10 hours ago, BalticDude said:

they simplified the flight model so the sim was more accessible to those newer players and those who don't play Rise of Flight, as well as being easier to fly in VR.

 

Entirely untrue.

[ST_Catchov]

I agree with Luke. The Se5a still sucks.

[Patricks]

8 minutes ago, ST_Catchov said:

I agree with Luke. The Se5a still sucks.

 

Explain "sucks" with some specific details please.

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

Also non existent force feedback on Gotha's elevator controls.

[BalticDude]

20 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Entirely untrue.

I'd like to hear that from the developers. Lots of people will defend any product for any number of reasons.

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, BalticDude said:

I'd like to hear that from the developers. Lots of people will defend any product for any number of reasons.

 

It was explained repeatedly by the developers, when FC was announced, that the flight models would be essentially the same as they were in RoF. This whole bit about them being made easier for VR users and new players is patent nonsense.

[Zooropa_Fly]

I believe the FM's were at least initially 'ported' over from RoF.

There is certainly a difference in the feel of flying any plane in both games, which is likely due to the different game engines.

The way I was describing it at the time was that the 'air' felt a bit thicker in FC - the planes didn't feel as 'loose' to handle.

Comparisons are probably of little use now.. and it's ok to still prefer Rof !

 

S!

[BMA_Hellbender]

On 8/23/2022 at 5:48 PM, J5_Klugermann said:

Also non existent force feedback on Gotha's elevator controls.

 

Force feedback is also incorrect on Sopwith Triplane elevator controls when on the ground.

[US103_Baer]

22 hours ago, BalticDude said:

I'd like to hear that from the developers. Lots of people will defend any product for any number of reasons.

The guys are right Baltic.

The devs did state exactly what they were doing. You can find it if you search long enough. 

Then, as Zoop says, FC uses a different game engine which, taken overall, 'seems' to increase the effect of airflow over surfaces.

 

One of the results of this that I've noticed is an increase in drag, especially with higher angles of attack. Most planes will therfore lose energy quicker when pulling the stick back hard and when zooming up after attacks.

Of course it affects some planes more than others and many have questioned that particular disparity! However because of this 'faster loss of energy' I think FC is actually harder to fly well PvP than RoF and is probably more accurate.

This won't be so noticeable in single player as the ai don't push you to the edge of your plane's envelope. 

[No.23_Starling]

On 8/23/2022 at 4:12 AM, Patricks said:

 

Explain "sucks" with some specific details please.

There’s a couple of long threads on this. It is currently one of the most broken DMs after the Dolphin, DXII, and Dva, and it suffers from an energy loss issue in zoom and turn. We think this is from the compromise in the FM developed in RoF where AnP and the devs tried to match the data the best they could. It seems they nailed the dive and level top speed at the expense of sustained turn and zoom, and used some experimental specification only found in the odd actual SE5. In contrast the Dva has the 10 year old FM which enables it to pull full deflection, prop hang like a DVII, and keep energy fairly well (if you can keep the wings on). In RoF you had the Albis out turning a lot of Entente scouts contrary to both the data and eyewitness accounts, when IRL it was a famed energy fighter.

 

Just fixing the wings as they have done for the CL2 will be a huge step forward.

[BraveSirRobin]

On 8/23/2022 at 11:36 PM, BalticDude said:

I'd like to hear that from the developers. Lots of people will defend any product for any number of reasons.

  
People saying “it’s the same as RoF” are not defending the game.  A lot of them actually want flight model revisions to just about every aircraft in the game.  Of course they’ll want more revisions after that, and then again after that…. But that’s a different problem.  In any case, the FC FMs are the same as the RoF FMs as they were prior to the RoF FM revision that everyone demanded but now hates.  Is that clear?

[No.23_Starling]

9 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

  
People saying “it’s the same as RoF” are not defending the game.  A lot of them actually want flight model revisions to just about every aircraft in the game.  Of course they’ll want more revisions after that, and then again after that…. But that’s a different problem.  In any case, the FC FMs are the same as the RoF FMs as they were prior to the RoF FM revision that everyone demanded but now hates.  Is that clear?

Did someone drain the swamp? It appears again. Is he summoned by some recitation in a mirror?

[BraveSirRobin]

16 minutes ago, US103_Rummell said:

Did someone drain the swamp? It appears again. Is he summoned by some recitation in a mirror?

What are you talking about?

Edited August 26, 2022 by BraveSirRobin

[ST_Catchov]

16 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

In contrast the Dva has the 10 year old FM which enables it to pull full deflection, prop hang like a DVII, and keep energy fairly well

 

 And I thought it was just because Zoo was a skillful pilot taunting me (in my camel) by prancing around with his vertical upward spirals and barrel rolls while I seethed below knowing one lucky shot would knock my wings off.

 

S!

 

Edit

 

Strike this from the records please Mister Smith. It is pure conjecture. We don't do that here. Rummy is just having a bad day.

[No.23_Starling]

5 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

 And I thought it was just because Zoo was a skillful pilot taunting me (in my camel) by prancing around with his vertical upward spirals and barrel rolls while I seethed below knowing one lucky shot would knock my wings off.

 

S!

 

 

Strike this from the records please Mister Smith. It is pure conjecture. We don't do that here. Rummy is just having a bad day.

I don’t think I’m being cynical, it’s pretty much what has been said and done all along. The Tripe and Camel rollback though was a positive step 

[MisterSmith]

12 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

Strike this from the records please Mister Smith. It is pure conjecture. We don't do that here. Rummy is just having a bad day.

 

It was coming anyway.

 

Smith

 

[TheSaxman]

On 8/23/2022 at 3:03 AM, ST_Catchov said:

I agree with Luke. The Se5a still sucks.

Meanwhile the Nieuport pilots be like...

 

[CockpitSlammer]

I find flying circus unplayably finicky and ROF on the other hand I love flight model. Then again, I was playing ROF heavily 3+ years ago, now it might be different for all I know.

[=EAustral=Topeka]

I don't know what difference there is between the FM of FC and RoF, in what they are similar is in the AI, both sims ruined by a lobotomized AI

[=IRFC=Gascan]

Try some MP, then. A player will be much more of a challenge than any AI. I basically only use the AI for gunnery practice. Don't fly alone, though. Hop on discord and fly with a buddy who can help keep an eye out. Expect to get your butt kicked at first, since many players have had plenty of time to learn. Despite the challenges, MP produces experiences that no AI can get close to. Sunday is the busiest day for the Jasta 5 FlugPark, but it also gets decent numbers randomly through the week.

[SharpeXB]

On 8/24/2022 at 2:42 AM, LukeFF said:

It was explained repeatedly by the developers, when FC was announced, that the flight models would be essentially the same as they were in RoF.

I can’t recall the explanation. Does FC use the “classic” FM from RoF or the new one that was introduced at the end of RoFs development?

[ST_Catchov]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I can’t recall the explanation. Does FC use the “classic” FM from RoF or the new one that was introduced at the end of RoFs development?

 

It's the "new one" (whereupon we appeared to get an underpowered 150hp Se5 in lieu of the 200hp Se5a Viper we should have got according to in-game specs). ?

 

On 8/25/2022 at 3:53 PM, US103_Rummell said:

it suffers from an energy loss issue in zoom and turn. We think this is from the compromise in the FM developed in RoF where AnP and the devs tried to match the data the best they could. It seems they nailed the dive and level top speed at the expense of sustained turn and zoom, and used some experimental specification only found in the odd actual SE5.

 

[SharpeXB]

18 minutes ago, ST_Catchov said:

It's the "new one"

That’s too bad ?

[No.23_Starling]

10 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

It's the "new one" (whereupon we appeared to get an underpowered 150hp Se5 in lieu of the 200hp Se5a Viper we should have got according to in-game specs). ?

 

 

The RoF FM for the SE5a was a weird compromise where they got the speed right and fixed the glass engine issue but borked other elements like energy regain and turn. 
 

You’ve then the bigger issue that the Dva and Diiia FMs weren’t updated and remained good turners but too slow. 
 

The resulting mess was an energy fighter that can’t zoom, and a turn fighter that’s can’t turn with the rotaries.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

21 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I can’t recall the explanation. Does FC use the “classic” FM from RoF or the new one that was introduced at the end of RoFs development?

They use FM before December 2014 patch, AnPertovich said the patch  was a mistake. But they deside to switch after they released Dr.1 and Spad 13. So Dr.1 is underpowered, Spad 13 is fine because it was not chenged in December patch.

[US103_Baer]

Think I'm gonna put a copy of the 2011 SE5a FM update post from AnPetrovich in the new RoF forum here.

Fascinating for which metrics he targeted, the new data he added, what he had to do to achieve the targets, and what we can imply about other plane FMs from that. 

 

[ST_Catchov]

1 hour ago, US103_Baer said:

Think I'm gonna put a copy of the 2011 SE5a FM update post from AnPetrovich in the new RoF forum here.

 

Don't think, do it. At first I was enthused that he was going to rectify the 'glass engine' .... and then down the rabbit-hole he went. Like the FC 'crystal wings' fix all he had to do was fix the 'glass engine' without overcomplicating things and re-doing the entire FM with (imo) suspect data and dubious complex mathematical calculations. 

 

He's a smart guy, no doubt, but in this case, he got it wrong and refused to back down. I'm still hopeful the new team will revisit it, slender as that may be.

 

 

[No.23_Starling]

9 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

Don't think, do it. At first I was enthused that he was going to rectify the 'glass engine' .... and then down the rabbit-hole he went. Like the FC 'crystal wings' fix all he had to do was fix the 'glass engine' without overcomplicating things and re-doing the entire FM with (imo) suspect data and dubious complex mathematical calculations. 

 

He's a smart guy, no doubt, but in this case, he got it wrong and refused to back down. I'm still hopeful the new team will revisit it, slender as that may be.

 

 

He used a lot of surviving data for aspects that were recorded like speed and climb, but there simply wasn’t data recorded for turn or roll rate. On the former of the two the best source for modelled performance is @Holtzauge’s recent book.

 

It also didn’t take into account the impact on performance vs the other old FMs, turning it into a pure BnZ plane that performed like a slightly tired SPAD in a zoom.  

Edited October 20, 2023 by US103_Rummell

[Holtzauge]

1 hour ago, US103_Rummell said:

He used a lot of surviving data for aspects that were recorded like speed and climb, but there simply wasn’t data recorded for turn or roll rate. On the former of the two the best source for modelled performance is @Holtzauge’s recent book.

 

It also didn’t take into account the impact on performance vs the other old FMs, turning it into a pure BnZ plane that performed like a slightly tired SPAD in a zoom.  

 

Yes, while there is historical data out there so that speed and climb rate can be tuned, the situation is quite different for turn rates: The only historical WW1 era data on turns that I know off and that has any meaningful numbers, is the WW1 German report I cite in my book: TB 41, "Der wagerechte Kurvenflug des Flugzeuges", by Heinrich Kann, and which I used to tune my simulations too. And this report suggests much longer turn times for all in-game aircraft. Especially at higher altitudes. However, the S.E.5a is an exception, and it should IMHO turn much better than it does in-game. Getting into the details here would take too long, but as I have said before, the developers already have a copy of my book which explains all this in detail, and if they have any questions, I will be quite happy to answer them.

 

PS @US103_Baer: Please post or link the S.E.5a FM update data you mentioned: I think I may have seen it before, but any new info on how/why the S.E.5a  is modeled at it is, is always welcome!

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Holtzauge

[ST_Catchov]

4 hours ago, Holtzauge said:

However, the S.E.5a is an exception, and it should IMHO turn much better than it does in-game

 

Not to mention ....

 

5 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

turning it into a pure BnZ plane that performed like a slightly tired SPAD in a zoom.

 

Anyway Holtzy, I hope your book is selling well allowing you to retire in comfort and finally learn the accordion. You deserve it.

 

 

 

 

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

13 hours ago, Holtzauge said:

PS @US103_Baer: Please post or link the S.E.5a FM update data you mentioned: I think I may have seen it before, but any new info on how/why the S.E.5a  is modeled at it is, is always welcome!

 

That was on ROF forum, if I recall AnPertovich also posted same FM revision details on N17 . I read that old ROF forum would be taken offline. 

 

Update, just checked it's down:(

Edited October 21, 2023 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Holtzauge]

9 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

Not to mention ....

 

 

Anyway Holtzy, I hope your book is selling well allowing you to retire in comfort and finally learn the accordion. You deserve it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My dear chap: The accordion is a far to merry instrument for what we are dealing with here. My thoughts are more in line with this:

Götterdämmerung: Das Tod und Trauermarch der FM’s ins Das Flugzeugsimulationsprogram  Der Fliegende Circus.

 

 

52 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

That was on ROF forum, if I recall AnPertovich also posted same FM revision details on N17 . I read that old ROF forum would be taken offline. 

 

Update, just checked it's down:(

 

Too bad. Hopefully someone has saved it, or it can be found in the Wayback Machine or similar.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Holtzauge

[ST_Catchov]

18 minutes ago, Holtzauge said:

Götterdammerung: Das Tod und Trauermarch der FM’s in das Flugzeugsimulationsprogram  der Fliegende Circus.

 

Yep, It's a bit like that innit Holtzy. 

 

Here's a bit of nostalgia for anyone interested in our discontent. One of many, and yet ..... here we are.

 

 

 

[US103_Baer]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:58 AM, Holtzauge said:

PS @US103_Baer: Please post or link the S.E.5a FM update data you mentioned: I think I may have seen it before, but any new info on how/why the S.E.5a  is modeled at it is, is always welcome!

 

Here you go guys.