Tip: Destroying german heavy tanks

[super-truite]

I just discovered recently that heavy tanks can be easily disabled using HE rounds. I guess most of you know it, but since I never saw it written on the forum and I only see complaints about the invincibility of German heavies, here it is ...
Just shoot near the gun : for panther you need to hit rather close to the gun, for Tiger and Ferdinand you need less precision.
Once the gun is disabled, you can try to destroy a track and then close up for the kill.
With this, you can attack frontally Tigers using a t34 or a M4A2 ! 
If on top of that you team up with other tanks, it is even easier

Edited July 15, 2022 by super-truite

[moustache]

yes, it is even sometimes possible to kill it only with HE: when pulling on the turret, the hull ceiling sometimes seems to give way

 

on the other hand, the su 122 and 152 seem "immunized" from the deactivation of its gun by HE shells (even when faced with an elephant...)

Edited July 15, 2022 by moustache

[super-truite]

22 minutes ago, moustache said:

yes, it is even sometimes possible to kill it only with HE: when pulling on the turret, the hull ceiling sometimes seems to give way

 

on the other hand, the su 122 and 152 seem "immunized" from the deactivation of its gun by HE shells (even when faced with an elephant...)

yes I destroyed a Tiger with only sherman HE Shells, so it seems possible. I did not understand what was hit though

regarding 122s and 152s we can anyway destroy them easily with APHE

[moustache]

33 minutes ago, super-truite said:

yes I destroyed a Tiger with only sherman HE Shells, so it seems possible. I did not understand what was hit though

overpressure system, a bit like in WT?

[SCG_SchleiferGER]

This is 110% a bug. We did a test on that. Turns out if you shoot the Tiger in the back (the hull lower back even), you damage the gun on the other end if the vehicle. Tiger has a severe glass barrel symdrome.

Edited August 24, 2022 by SCG_SchleiferGER

[super-truite]

if it gets damaged from behind it must be a bug indeed. But from the front it might be plausible. Did someone find some sources about the effectiveness of HE rounds to damage tank guns ? I guess that due to the length they can be easily bent but I do not know if this is achievable with 75 mm HE rounds.

[Lofte]

48 minutes ago, super-truite said:

if it gets damaged from behind it must be a bug indeed. But from the front it might be plausible. Did someone find some sources about the effectiveness of HE rounds to damage tank guns ? I guess that due to the length they can be easily bent but I do not know if this is achievable with 75 mm HE rounds.

About HE - no, but there's some small data about weapon damage. It only shows us that such thing as "gun damage" obiously existed and was not too rare...

 

[SCG_SchleiferGER]

On 7/15/2022 at 11:38 AM, moustache said:

overpressure system, a bit like in WT?

The floor of the hull sponsons are thin enough for HE to burst through. Works with almost any vehicle.

[SCG_judgedeath3]

4 hours ago, super-truite said:

I guess that due to the length they can be easily bent but I do not know if this is achievable with 75 mm HE rounds.

I have never read any book from allied side in ww2 where they used HE shells to take out main guns on german tanks on purpose, but maybe someone here has and feel free to add to it.
Most cases I know of it was done with AP rounds.
But from the swedish book el alamein:

Grant and Shermans found HE to not work well against main gun frontally but could damage optics and recoil springs unless a perfect shot that lands inside the gun barrel, it wouldnt damage the tiger gun, but they found that using AP ammo and shoting underneath the hull and with some luck it would bounch upwards and inside the tank from underneath, which one can read in other books from D-day and onwards.

From my books on barbarossa german crews in 1941 tried to take out the KV-1s main gun but AP nor HE could do it from the front and they went on the side where its easier to penetrate the gun barrel and damage it, from the front it was said to be very rare, AP could however block the turret ring causing a jam if lucky.
Same pictures as in the book from AP shells if the info is correct:


 

[LachenKrieg]

3 hours ago, Lofte said:

About HE - no, but there's some small data about weapon damage. It only shows us that such thing as "gun damage" obiously existed and was not too rare...

 

Going by the numbers, it looks to be about 4%. My guess would be that they would mostly be caused by penetrating hits either into the turret, or the gun barrel itself.

 

 

20 minutes ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

I have never read any book from allied side in ww2 where they used HE shells to take out main guns on german tanks on purpose, but maybe someone here has and feel free to add to it.
Most cases I know of it was done with AP rounds.
But from the swedish book el alamein:

Grant and Shermans found HE to not work well against main gun frontally but could damage optics and recoil springs unless a perfect shot that lands inside the gun barrel, it wouldnt damage the tiger gun, but they found that using AP ammo and shoting underneath the hull and with some luck it would bounch upwards and inside the tank from underneath, which one can read in other books from D-day and onwards.

From my books on barbarossa german crews in 1941 tried to take out the KV-1s main gun but AP nor HE could do it from the front and they went on the side where its easier to penetrate the gun barrel and damage it, from the front it was said to be very rare, AP could however block the turret ring causing a jam if lucky.
Same pictures as in the book from AP shells if the info is correct:


 

At the start of Barbarossa, the only thing Germany had that could pen a KV tank was the 88 mm Flak gun. My guess is the information your citing about German crews in 1941 is a reference to that fact. It wouldn't be until the Tiger arrived that the situation would change.

 

You have two beautiful examples of external damage pictured though. Not likely that the two images are from the same battle, but the top image shows what is likely a 5 cm shot, while the one below shows damage from an 88. In both cases though, the gun is inoperative.

 

Its interesting to note in the top picture where we see a T34 going in the opposite direction when it was knocked out. It reminds me of the confusion that followed in the battle of Brody. The Germans were outnumbered by about 5:1 in tanks, with nothing bigger than a 5 cm gun, and nothing that could penetrate a KV, and yet they still defeated them. The Germans took a real beating, but air superiority and better command and control of ground forces tipped the balance in their favor, knocking the 8th mech corps out of operation.

[TIGRE88]

 

don't worry this bug will be fixed in 10 years, it's very fast 

 

Sorry if i forgot someone, i couldn't put all the pictures 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by TIGRE88

[SCG_Neun]

On 7/24/2022 at 10:54 AM, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

I have never read any book from allied side in ww2 where they used HE shells to take out main guns on german tanks on purpose, but maybe someone here has and feel free to add to it.
Most cases I know of it was done with AP rounds.
But from the swedish book el alamein:

Grant and Shermans found HE to not work well against main gun frontally but could damage optics and recoil springs unless a perfect shot that lands inside the gun barrel, it wouldnt damage the tiger gun, but they found that using AP ammo and shoting underneath the hull and with some luck it would bounch upwards and inside the tank from underneath, which one can read in other books from D-day and onwards.

From my books on barbarossa german crews in 1941 tried to take out the KV-1s main gun but AP nor HE could do it from the front and they went on the side where its easier to penetrate the gun barrel and damage it, from the front it was said to be very rare, AP could however block the turret ring causing a jam if lucky.
Same pictures as in the book from AP shells if the info is correct:


 

Sergey, where's that roll of duct tape?

[Thad]

Neun..... I'm afraid we used it all up after the last battle.  ?

[LachenKrieg]

@TIGRE88....

[Regingrave-]

We've checked out on HE shells damage, outside the issue with the damage coming to the gun from hits on the back of the turret, HE damage to the barrels seem to be fine.

Long barrels of Tiger, Panther and Ferdinand are not mechanically weaker than the barrels of other tanks, they just happen to be longer and thinner thus having more probablility to be hit and penetrated by HE shell fragment.

 

15.07.2022 в 11:42, moustache сказал:

on the other hand, the su 122 and 152 seem "immunized" from the deactivation of its gun by HE shells (even when faced with an elephant...)

Their barrels are not invulnerable, howitzers just happen to have thicker barrels than cannons, thus having enough durability against HE shells.

[LachenKrieg]

I really appreciate all the recent communications coming from the team, I mean I would really like to get  back to Tank Crew and I see this as a big step in that direction for me.

 

But I have a question/comment regarding HE damage. I would have thought that most of the damage caused by HE shells would result from strikes on the turret that land on or very close to the portion of the gun barrel protruding from the mantlet. So I wouldn't have thought the barrels length to be a major contributor. In that regard, the Tiger/Panther gun barrel smaller diameter would represent a smaller target than the larger diameter barrel of an SU-122/152.

 

But my concern would revolve more around the frequency and extent of this type of damage. Does anyone have actual stats for the number of German guns that were knocked out with HE shells? Because in a game like this, once the mechanic is implemented it could mean it happens with nearly every engagement.

[TIGRE88]

On 8/11/2022 at 3:28 PM, LachenKrieg said:

I really appreciate all the recent communications coming from the team, I mean I would really like to get  back to Tank Crew and I see this as a big step in that direction for me.

 

But I have a question/comment regarding HE damage. I would have thought that most of the damage caused by HE shells would result from strikes on the turret that land on or very close to the portion of the gun barrel protruding from the mantlet. So I wouldn't have thought the barrels length to be a major contributor. In that regard, the Tiger/Panther gun barrel smaller diameter would represent a smaller target than the larger diameter barrel of an SU-122/152.

 

But my concern would revolve more around the frequency and extent of this type of damage. Does anyone have actual stats for the number of German guns that were knocked out with HE shells? Because in a game like this, once the mechanic is implemented it could mean it happens with nearly every engagement.

 

it seems to me that the fact a single HE shell is enough to systematically destroy the barrel of a tank like the TIGER  is exaggerated ... especially that the thick area of the barrel at the base of the gun is thick armor ... it is not a hollow barrel .. even if it has big diameter 

 

in fact half the length of the tiger barrel looks thick and the other half thinner  

 

given the distance at which the thinnest part of the barrel would be facing a HE shell explosion, the fragments of the HE would tend to slide along the barrel without big damage 

 

during WW2 they should have been content to use HE to destroy the guns in 1 shot instead of trying to attack the heavy tanks from the flank with armor piercing shells.   

 

out of subject but yesterday I had the gun neutralized by an enemy machine-gun shooting ! 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by TIGRE88

[Nblg_Magni]

Video tutorial for the first post of this thread

 

 

 

[TIGRE88]

i give you a mission test :  "shot test HE" , the 6 TIGER are disabled by one single HE shot .. 

 there is Clint Eastwood shooting.... ?

 

If it was so easy to take out a tank with a single HE shell, then all tanks would take out each other in 1 hit, why waste time trying to puncture armor?

1 single tank could be the guard at the entrance to a village.. 1 single shot, bam, neutralized.. no one enters.. honestly I don't believe it

Shot test HE.zip

 

another test :  1 T34 neutralize 6 sherman with 1 HE per tank.  

shot test HE T34.zip

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by TIGRE88

[SCG_SchleiferGER]

For Tiger from the front:

 

Shoot turret mg or optics ports. Can work with Sherman APHE up to about 500m. For Soviet APHE you need 200 or closer I guess. Soviet APCR at close range to the same spot is very likely to destroy the gun. Soviet guns are easier to aim also, because the gunsight is very close to the gun with almost no horizontal and no vertical offset.

Edited August 12, 2022 by SCG_SchleiferGER

[LachenKrieg]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:25 AM, Regingrave said:

We've checked out on HE shells damage, outside the issue with the damage coming to the gun from hits on the back of the turret, HE damage to the barrels seem to be fine.

Long barrels of Tiger, Panther and Ferdinand are not mechanically weaker than the barrels of other tanks, they just happen to be longer and thinner thus having more probablility to be hit and penetrated by HE shell fragment.

 

Their barrels are not invulnerable, howitzers just happen to have thicker barrels than cannons, thus having enough durability against HE shells.

I have tried to google a reference to your claim that German gun barrels were thinner than other tanks, but couldn't find anything. The Tiger tank's barrel consisted of an inner and outer sleeve. Highly unlikely that it would be penetrated by an HE fragment.

 

Certainly if you compare the ammunition fired in the various guns, the German ammunition often used a lot more charge than their Allied counterparts, so I doubt Germany was using thinner walled barrels than their Allied counterparts.

 

But I would love to see a reference documenting HE shells from a Sherman tank penetrating the gun barrel on a Tiger tank. The video linked above by @Nblg_Magni demonstrates just how out of touch Tank Crew is in terms of armored fighting vehicle simulations. 

 

The report by @Lofte above doesn't specify the type of damage so this could include gun malfunctions of any kind, but certainly we have all seen images of AP penetrations to both German and Allied gun barrels so this would no doubt make up a good portion of the 4%.

 

I have never seen an image of an HE fragment penetrating a gun barrel though, but would appreciate if you could provide any references you have.

Edited August 12, 2022 by LachenKrieg

[Arditi]

the damage of the HE shells in the cannons is exaggerated, so the game is broken, with a single HE hit you knock out a tiger or panther, not a lucky hit that may be perfectly possible or accumulation of damage by several hits, otherwise the first or second hit damages the barrel automatically.

[E69_geramos109]

It is overdone. I am having a lot of fun in the game playing t34 and disabling tanks with He shots. There is no tracer so you do not reveal your position. It is cracy that now the AT Round in the servers is the HE ahahaha. When playing german is very frustrating, you just got one shotted gun out and if tracks by by for 10 min so better get other tank. 

It is surprising to me hearing that HE damage is good from a dev. I hope this bug will be fixed because multiplayer is becoming annoying and unplayable experience. 

[TIGRE88]

the unrealistic HE is  finally fixed... now you can neutralize a cannon with two HE shots instead of just one .... ???...............? 

[JG27_Steini]

49 minutes ago, Eeafanas said:

I do not understand.
HOW HOW do you manage to disable guns with HE. I have NEVER succeeded in destroying the Pz-IV / V and VI gun.  
Share the secret to your success.  I also want to publicly humiliate the wunderwaffe on a cheap T-34-76.

 

How do you know that you never disabled the gun? Your comments are always so biased that no one can talk to you seriously. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by JG27_Steini

[SCG_SchleiferGER]

1 hour ago, Eeafanas said:

I do not understand.
HOW HOW do you manage to disable guns with HE. I have NEVER succeeded in destroying the Pz-IV / V and VI gun.  
Share the secret to your success.  I also want to publicly humiliate the wunderwaffe on a cheap T-34-76.

Ehm...just load HE, shoot and hit the target? Before the patch you could damage and disable the Pz. VI's gun by shooting at the back lower hull while the Pz. VI's gun was pointed to the front.

 

If you do not want to play the guessing game on what you did to the enemy tank I suggest you just tab into the enemy radio, then you get all the damage report messages you could possibly need. I think it was windows-key + c to cycle between the enemy and friendly radios.

Edited September 8, 2022 by SCG_SchleiferGER

[JG27_Steini]

2 hours ago, Eeafanas said:

Because after 2-3 hits on the tower of the above tanks, an armor-piercing projectile flew in response to me, which undermined the ammo rack.  I will definitely provide the track and screen recording later.

In my post above, there was a sincere interest in the method of destroying tank guns.  No prejudice, only severe constructive.

 

In addition, perhaps this is due to the fact that I use Google translator, since my native language is Russian.

And as you know, Google translator always translates messages in a business-like manner of communication, if you use translation from Russian into English or vice versa.

 

If it is an translation problem, then i do apologize ?

[TIGRE88]

I suggest you to play only in single player... at least AI tanks are more logical and realistic than humans, because AI tanks use armor-piercing shells, they know that the HE can not neutralize a gun so easily ...

it is paradoxical, an AI that is more realistic than a human.

but whose fault is it? the one who decided that the HE could neutralize a gun in a not credible way... 

 

???   

[TIGRE88]

4 hours ago, Eeafanas said:

Tank Crew community

 

…the most intelligent and resourceful, as for me.

wrong ... : it is : the game seller.  

[TIGRE88]

5 minutes ago, Eeafanas said:

What?

 

it is indeed the seller of the game who decided during his "free time"  to modify the HE and to make the game not realistic?     "free time"  hahaha what a joke....  ?

after for the question of logic and intelligence ... it's another question ...  

 

i think there must be some translation problems... you translate from english to russian and i translate from french to english.... and in the end we must understand from russian to french... without forgetting the fact that i'm half kamikaz... i come from a country where there are a lot of killings and explosions ?

[LachenKrieg]

On 9/8/2022 at 7:13 AM, TIGRE88 said:

the unrealistic HE is  finally fixed... now you can neutralize a cannon with two HE shots instead of just one .... ???...............? 

So if this is now considered fixed, then I remain extremely disappointed. Oh well, I guess it is what it is!

 

28. Ballistics: ricochet tendency has been reduced somewhat.

43. The damage of the gun barrels base on Pz.III, Pz.IV and Pz.VI is calculated correctly when it is hit by fragments.

[TIGRE88]

13 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

So if this is now considered fixed, then I remain extremely disappointed. Oh well, I guess it is what it is!

 

28. Ballistics: ricochet tendency has been reduced somewhat.

43. The damage of the gun barrels base on Pz.III, Pz.IV and Pz.VI is calculated correctly when it is hit by fragments.

 

yesterday I had the gun of my Tiger tank neutralized in one shot by a light armored M8............