AI Wingmen in ground attacks missions....

[RyanR]

I've noticed these "problems" whether in a P-47 or Bf-110.

 

1.) There's no radio command to get your wingmen to jettison stores if the situation on the way to the target gets too hot.

 

2.) Often, it's a bear just to get the AI to drop bombs in the target area at all. Even with the radio command to engage the nearest ground target, they just won't use those bombs. Consequently, you peel off the target to head home, and half the planes still have 250kg/500lb bombs.

 

I flew the same mission 3 times: Bomb supply dump in BoM with Bf-110's. First time, eight P-40's come in range. Everybody peels off and engages them with bombs on. Sigh.... Restart. Second time, we go in low. I force everyone to "do as I do" with the radio command. This works. We keep on trucking into target, the escort deals with the P-40's. All is good. I managed to get shot up good over the target, but we flattened it pretty good. I limped back across the front to friendly territory, bailed out, but somehow wound up "killed". Time number three, I used the same trick to keep my wingmen with me, we fly a little bit north to avoid the P-40's entirely. Over the target, it's now a bear to get anyone to drop their bombs. Everyone is going through the motions. I'm trying both "revert to our mission" and the "attack nearest ground target" radio commands. Meanwhile, the AAA is just shredding everyone, including the escorts. Finally, we get the "mission completed" and we're getting out of there..... but 3-4 planes still have all their bombs.

 

The thing is that when these missions work, they're really fun compared to just "doing fighters". You get to blow something up, and when the defenders arrive, you can mix it up with them in an "underdog" of a plane.

 

-Ryan

 

 

 

 

[Traffic]

I've noticed it too in every campaign or quick mission. It's been happening for a while. I'm in Typhoons now and 4 or so always come back loaded. They literally fly in circles and do nothing while AA has easy targets. Something changed and I'm not sure what. It would cool to be able to control them. 

 

So, your thoughts were exactly mine. I actually just jumped on here to see if anyone had mentioned anything about it. 

[Wilhelm_Heidkamp]

I agree.

[Yogiflight]

It works when you are not flying as flightleader, so my guess is, you did not hit the point, which activates the ground attack. Did you hear your pilot call out the game activated order to search for targets ( sorry, I can't remember how it is in English language)? If you hit the point, about 10 kilometers ahead of the target, it gets activated by the game and the ground attack routine of the AI starts. You can also give this command via radio comm (not the one to attack nearest ground target). If it works, AI will fly for the correct point to start its attack routine.

[Noisemaker]

16 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

It works when you are not flying as flightleader, so my guess is, you did not hit the point, which activates the ground attack. Did you hear your pilot call out the game activated order to search for targets ( sorry, I can't remember how it is in English language)? If you hit the point, about 10 kilometers ahead of the target, it gets activated by the game and the ground attack routine of the AI starts. You can also give this command via radio comm (not the one to attack nearest ground target). If it works, AI will fly for the correct point to start its attack routine.

This happens even if you've reached the IP.   What I noticed is that the wingmen stop dropping ordnance after you, as flight leader, has hit the target, fulfilling the mission objective (Even if it doesn't pop up right away).  I reported it in the bug section with mission files and suggest the others who are having this issue to do the same.

[Winkysmith]

40 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

You can also give this command via radio comm (not the one to attack nearest ground target).

Do you mean the “patrol and engage ground targets” (or perhaps it’s just “patrol for ground targets”)?

[cellinsky]

I noticed the same behavior when flying the Steelbirds campagne. You fly as a flight-leader. It  was much better in Hellhawks, where you fly as a wingman. What is the best approach when ground-pounding as a flight-leader? I like to "snake in" and not using the official waypoints.

[Sandinourcoffee6]

It would be good if we had an actual explanation of what each radio command does and how to use them ( nobody really seems to know )

if I want my wingmen to attack a ground target what radio commands to use ?

it’s all very confusing,perhaps someone could make a video on how it all works,how the AI interact with radio commands

I think it’s all about flying in a set pattern,if you fly out of sync everything goes haphazard,you may get the message target to faraway.

so I do come to the conclusion if you want to bomb something,you really need to keep in formation with your wingmen,if you are flying as leader get near your target and give your orders then.

what we all want is for all planes get in quick drop bombs or rockets and get out quickly,that would be realistic

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, Winkysmith said:

Do you mean the “patrol and engage ground targets” (or perhaps it’s just “patrol for ground targets”)?

Exactly

 

1 hour ago, Noisemaker said:

This happens even if you've reached the IP. 

So even after you heard the game triggered command? That is weird. It is some time since I was flying a ground attack as flightleader.

1 hour ago, Noisemaker said:

What I noticed is that the wingmen stop dropping ordnance after you, as flight leader, has hit the target, fulfilling the mission objective

This happens if you are flightleader or not. My 110 flight regularely returns with some bombs.

What is absolutely annoying is, when you fly 200km to bomb a supply depot 70km into enemy territory and everything the AI bombs is the AAA, without touching the depot at all and some of your squadmates return with a bomb under the fuselage.

I reported that wrong behaviour (if you get ordered to bomb a depot, you are ordered to bomb a depot. It is as easy as that!) and it was changed, so the AI bombed the targets they were ordered to. Maybe half a year later it was changed back to the old way, the AI attacking Flak instead of the target.

[Props]

For me it depends on the mission, map, and plane. On the Kuban map flying Yaks I don't see this much, but flying the P-51 on the Rheinland map I see it consistently when attacking airfields and bridges where my wingman never drop on the bridge or facilities and then get into dogfights with all their ordnance still attached, in fact they never drop their wing attachments for any dogfight. One or two might go after an AAA emplacement or two, but that's it. They happily go after trucks, artillery emplacements, and trains.

 

Occasionally in AQMB they want to break formation on the way to target to go chase some enemy bombers and I have to tell them to rejoin formation once or twice but they do comply. They do this regardless of whether we are on escort, or ground attack mission profiles. "Do like me" sometimes helps to get them on target, but not always.

 

The positive side of this is that while they're mixing it up with the bad guys I can usually focus on my attack runs unmolested, and complete the mission, drop my expended rocket tubes and then join the air fight. Of course if it's an airfield attack it means most of our escort and my GAT flight are pretty much dead or have runaway by then and I find myself disengaging rather quickly followed by a hectic running fight back to friendly lines with up to a dozen enemy aircraft all looking to kill me since there's no one else around to shoot at.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Yep, I started a similar complaint thread a little while ago, serious work needs to be done for AI all around, including behavior during strike missions.

 

- attacking AAA and ignoring the main target like the train or the bridge

 

- not engaging interceptors even when ordered to, flying straight like a zombie until shot down.

 

- hovering forever above the target zone even if the mission is completed until whats left of AAA shoot them all down.

 

- unable to jettison loadouts when engaged by interceptors. 

 

Clearly, the AI is totally bamboozled when engaged by enemies near the main target, or when engaged by enemies when mission is completed, on the way back home. 

 

You want to fully experience the majesty of AI in a ground attack role? Start a Me262 career in BoBP and behold. There, the AI is out-IQ'd by sea cucumbers, its absolutely pathetic. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by I./JG52_Woutwocampe

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

not engaging interceptors even when ordered to, flying straight like a zombie until shot down.

I make different observations here in my Bf 110 career. I have to say, I am not the flightleader. My squadmates often start to engage interceptors without any need. We have an escort, which usually cares for the enemy fighters quite well. So the ground attack flight should stay on course to the target, if it is not attacked.

Sometimes yes, they stay on course and get shot down one after the other. But this did not happen to me lately.

 

2 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

You want to fully experience the majesty of AI in a ground attack role? Start a Me262 career in BoBP and behold. There, the AI is out-IQ'd by sea cucumbers, its absolutely pathetic. 

I was flying some ground attack missions in career mode. We flew to the target, dropped our bombs and returned to our base, always staying fast, without giving enemy fighters a chance to attack us. Exactly what I would expect of it.

 

But I am absolutely with you about the AAA attacking instead of the target, which they, according to the briefing, should attack.

Additionally the AI started again to strafe tank columns. They stopped doing this after one of the latest updates, but they are doing it again.

[Traffic]

I'd be totally cool with my flight hitting AA, but 1 or 2 actually go after targets while the remaining 6 or so fly in circles trailing me doing nothing. and then get chewed up by AA. The commands seem to do nothing, other than watch them, break formation. I give the command to attack ground targets a hundred times and nobody does anything. 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

@Yogiflight

 

Im usually squadon leader. I noticed too that when you are not the leader, its not as ragingly awful. 

 

I swear to you, in EVERY mission in my 262 career as a leader apart from 2 or 3, I was the only one to come back alive. The 3 other 262s would passively die. Always. This career is the only career I willingly deleted before it was over, it simply was an awful experience, entirely. Every single mission was the same, my 3 mates would be killed by Tempests without retaliating, and the Tempests would suddenly stop pursuing me and start their landing maneuvers so I would kill them one by one without breaking a sweat.

 

I also have a pretty nice 110 career, but again, as the leader, I sometimes get frustrated by my wingmen in ground strike missions. We got jumped by La5s the other day, 20 kms away from our target. We had a 109 escort but they were slow to react so I had no choice but to jettison loadouts and engage the La5s. I ordered my wigmen to engage but they didnt, they simply tried to follow me in my evasive maneuvers. 4 out of 5 died with their loadouts still attached. 

 

So, being the leader DEFINATELY makes the AI in ground attack missions much worse.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by I./JG52_Woutwocampe

[Yogiflight]

@I./JG52_Woutwocampestrange observations. I only had issues with the 262 in the fighter career. My squadmates sometimes destroyed one bomber, but usually only turned with the fighter escort, instead of using their speed to avoid the escort.

 

I will see how it works with the 110 as flightleader, when I am far enough in my current career. It really is weird how different situations change the behaviour of the AI. I experienced it when fighting in QMB. The AI is completely different compared to the career mode. For example I tried a few times to fight with a P-38 in a FW 190 A8. But instead of taking the fight, the P-38 simply ran away. I never experienced that kind of behaviour in career mode.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

@YogiflightDont get me wrong I love my 110 career overall, even as the leader. I'm in the early stages of Stalingrad after the entire Moscow campaign and I'm still having a blast flying it. 

[Roover]

Well.. In SP when engage by fighters on a fighter bomber run.. the squadron should jettison everything they got with no orders whatsoever to save their lifes.

 

To me this is the way it should be. Don't friggin' wait for an order, no time, jettison.. engage or try to save you life.

 

Simple and like real life.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

 

 

[Yogiflight]

8 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

@YogiflightDont get me wrong I love my 110 career overall, even as the leader. I'm in the early stages of Stalingrad after the entire Moscow campaign and I'm still having a blast flying it. 

I can absolutely understand you. The more frustrating it is to have such basic mistakes in the game, like only bombing the AAA instead of the ordered target.

 

8 hours ago, Roover said:

Well.. In SP when engage by fighters on a fighter bomber run.. the squadron should jettison everything they got with no orders whatsoever to save their lifes.

When flying fighter bombers, yes. If you are flying Bf 110 or IL-2 (two seater) with defensive armament, this would mean, bombers should jettison their bombs, too, as soon as enemy fighters approach and RTB. This is not what was done IRL. They should be flying in the correct formations (three or four ship V-formations) and defend themselves with their defensive armament, like it was in the old IL-2, when you were carrying bombs with the 110.

[RyanR]

Seems like different things happen with different targets. Last 110 mission was a river crossing attack. Everyone got two 250kg bombs. I got the bridge, the AI did get some of the surrounding targets. Still, half the flight left the target area with at least one 250kg on the bottom. No command was getting them to use it. Next time I'll put a single 1,000kg under everyone.

 

Fighter-bombers seem to be quirky since they're neither fighter nor bomber, and the AI's decision tree is confuzzled.

 

-Ryan