Spotting - do you get better at it, is it settings, or is VR spotting just bad?

[danomite]

I've been playing IL2 in VR for about 2 weeks now.  I have tweaked my graphics using multiple guides as reference, and I'm pretty happy with the settings and frame rates.  But Jesus Christ is spotting so much harder in VR compared to my 1440p track IR setup.  In track IR I never have had problems with spotting planes at reasonable distances, but in VR I virtually never spot the enemy before they spot me.  I love the immersion, but I hate that I no longer feel competitive in dogfights.  Does anybody have tips for settings in the current game environment, or is spotting in VR just plain bad?

Edited January 12, 2022 by danomite

[ITAF_Airone1989]

I use VR and I have the same spotting, just a little lower ID capacity

[BBAS_Tiki_Joe]

Depends on Graphic settings, hardware & Headset. If I have my head set set on a lower Res, with low AA like FXAA or off I can see planes all the way across the map but cannot ID them. If I have everything cranked up, HMD High Res setting, MSAA 2x-8x, It makes spotting more difficult but ID'ing better but also makes the game look a heck of a lot better. But if you have a pretty good setup, I've found that my ability to spot and ID is not worse than others in my squadron that do not fly with VR. You switched up hardware and it takes a while to reteach you brain how to use it. When I made the switch it took a while to get use to. You are seeing different tale-tale signs of planes off in the distance, your eyes are having to cover a lot more screen then they did before if that makes sense. You are not sitting 1/2 inch away from your monitor with track IR scanning every pixel like you are with VR. In VR you have a life sized giant world to scan instead of just a 27" screen if that makes sense.

 

I like to section off the sky with my eyes. Instead of just looking around for planes, make an invisible imaginary box that sections off part of the sky and spend a few seconds scanning that one section and then move on to the next until you cover the entirety of the direction you are looking. If you see something odd use VR zoom to check it out. For ID'ing, I can see what the plane is pretty far away using VR zoom but its still not as good as flat screen would be. For that, I've just gotten really good at situational awareness and the flight characteristics/sizes of all the planes in the game. I.e. what the exhaust from each plane looks like, tracer color, size, how its maneuvering, direction of travel from the front etc, blah blah, probably all stuff your already very familiar with but should rely on a lot more with VR. I feel that I'm at about 100% ID rate at anything under 1km out with VR zoom, probably drops to about 95% 1.5km out, 2km is probably around 65/70% for fighters, 80% for bombers.

 

With all that said, again, I think 90% of it is just practicing and getting used to the new hardware. It's pretty much completely changed the environment for you. Also, if you have not already look up on the forums VR necksaver so you don't pull a muscle in your neck looking behind you, its a life saver and will save your life helping check your six.

 

Best regards!

[Youtch]

Planes spotting is kind of okish in VR, nor crystal clear as with monitor, bust still doable when getting used to it

 

At which distant can you spot target on the grounds? I find those the harder to see in VR, almost requiring to be on the top of it to see it.

[danomite]

Okay, so the problem is pretty much resolved now.  Coincidentally I received a new 3080ti in the mail today, after being selected in the Newegg shuffle yesterday.  This beast of a graphics card has allowed me to turn up my render resolution to 100% (Reverb G2).  In all settings - openvr FSR, SteamVR, and in the IL2 graphics.  Without changing any other settings my spotting is suddenly 10x easier, and I maintain 80-90 FPS while playing on Finnish.  I might tweak things a bit to try to get 90 locked.

 

I won some dogfights and I lost some today.  But I didn't lose any because of planes appearing out of thin air, I lost them when I made mistakes with my flying.  Getting rid of the render upscaling made a huge difference.  My guess is that at lower resolutions planes in the distance are rendered as just a few pixels, and upscaling the image blurs those pixels.  Native resolution rendering gives me clear dots in the distance and sharp plane outlines as I start approaching.  And I can look away without worrying about being able to reacquire the target.  Really it is just like playing with Track IR on my monitor, and I couldn't be happier.

[Drum]

Exactly, since the last patch it's au naturale here, too!  ?

[Youtch]

8 hours ago, danomite said:

This beast of a graphics card has allowed me to turn up my render resolution to 100% (Reverb G2).  In all settings - openvr FSR, SteamVR, and in the IL2 graphics.  Without changing any other settings my spotting is suddenly 10x easier

What setting are you using with FSR?

[danomite]

14 hours ago, Youtch said:

What setting are you using with FSR?

"enabled": true, for image sharpening

 

"useNIS": false, because the Nvidia algorithm produces halos around objects for me

 

"renderScale": 1, to eliminate upscaling and render in full resolution

 

"sharpness": 0.7, just my preference

 

"radius": 0.7, I don't think this matters without the upscaling

 

"applyMIPBias": true, I don't find that this changes anything really

[[CPT]Crunch]

If you have the in game Sharpness filter checked on and have the FSR sharpness at .7, that's the source of your halo's.   Try NIS on with it set at .1 with the in game sharpness filter on and see how the tracking and spotting is.  The landscape sharp don't matter, it won't affect either.

[Youtch]

If you use renderscale = 1, then the only reason you are using this FSR mod is the sharpening it offers.

 

Is my understanding correct or I am missing something?

 

Is the mod sharpening algorithm so much better than in game sharpening to justify using it instead?

[shirazjohn]

A good test for spotting is to setup a qmb mission 4x4 , face to face, 10000 metres range at the same altitude. Press record then unpause the game fly straight and level then try to spot the contacts at 10000 metres , then track them and see when you can identify them.

 

You can then change your graphics settings accordingly and play back the track and see if it makes a difference. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by shirazjohn

[Youtch]

That is indeed a good idea.

 

@shirazjohn: what is your current spotting distance and ID distance with your settings?

 

Is the spotting of ground target much more challenging than air contact as well?

[shirazjohn]

20 minutes ago, Youtch said:

That is indeed a good idea.

 

@shirazjohn: what is your current spotting distance and ID distance with your settings?

 

Is the spotting of ground target much more challenging than air contact as well?

Unfortunately  spotting is not great for me as i have poor eyesight (i have distorted vision in my right eye due to a previous detached retina) but i do manage ok.

 

I think i can id air targets at about 2-3 k but for ground targets i can spot below 3000ft but above that i use the zoom function (that's assuming i know where to look from the map).

 

For me its more about target id rather than distant spotting (its no good spotting at 10k and the not being able to id when its next you), i find both fsr and nis tend to make the target pixelated which makes them easier to spot at a distance but id is more difficult. 

 

I have been using fsr/nis to give me an fps boost as i still only have a gtx1080ti but since the new cloud update there has been an increase is fps so have found i don't need it anymore and id-ing is much easier if i can get as close to 100%ss as i can.

 

I'm not one who seeks the solid 90fps i find i can get fairly smooth gameplay with 50-60fps but obviously more is better.

 

I believe blurry landscape is a help for spotting but i personally prefer sharp.

[Youtch]

Thanks for your clarification.

 

I fully agree on your comment on landscape filter. Sharpen looks much better.

[danomite]

9 hours ago, Youtch said:

If you use renderscale = 1, then the only reason you are using this FSR mod is the sharpening it offers.

 

Is my understanding correct or I am missing something?

 

Is the mod sharpening algorithm so much better than in game sharpening to justify using it instead?

 

No that's correct.  I haven't yet tried switching back from the mod to compare with and without its sharpening, but I do intend to.  It may be that I don't need the FSR mod at all.

 

12 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

If you have the in game Sharpness filter checked on and have the FSR sharpness at .7, that's the source of your halo's.   Try NIS on with it set at .1 with the in game sharpness filter on and see how the tracking and spotting is.  The landscape sharp don't matter, it won't affect either.

 

I'll give that a try.  In game I have landscape filter set to blurred, but the sharpness checkbox is selected.  I find that to help with spotting.

[[CPT]Crunch]

9 hours ago, Youtch said:

If you use renderscale = 1, then the only reason you are using this FSR mod is the sharpening it offers.

 

Is my understanding correct or I am missing something?

 

Is the mod sharpening algorithm so much better than in game sharpening to justify using it instead?

What it does give you is control over the level of sharpening, can make quite a dramatic difference.  The latest fholger lets you sharpen beyond 1.0, you can test using hot keys while in game, and it records the settings applied in a text file.  I've managed setting it up to 2.2, but it starts getting into diminished returns back to shimmering.  I like the fact you can go into a QMB and freeze a fight with a bandit at whatever distance and angles you want, and than fine tune for air contacts, slicker than snot.

[danomite]

7 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

What it does give you is control over the level of sharpening, can make quite a dramatic difference.  The latest fholger lets you sharpen beyond 1.0, you can test using hot keys while in game, and it records the settings applied in a text file.  I've managed setting it up to 2.2, but it starts getting into diminished returns back to shimmering.  I like the fact you can go into a QMB and freeze a fight with a bandit at whatever distance and angles you want, and than fine tune for air contacts, slicker than snot.

 

Do you disable the in-game sharpening when applying FSR sharpening?

[Youtch]

13 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

The latest fholger lets you sharpen beyond 1.0

You sharpen with NIS or FSR? are you also using renderscale = 1? 

[[CPT]Crunch]

Yes, never have any good come out of it with both on, it creates massive shimmer.

1 minute ago, Youtch said:

You sharpen with NIS or FSR? are you also using renderscale = 1? 

You can increase or decrease in game on the fly while flying, by use of hot keys with the latest 2.1 version.  Instructions in the readme file.

Oh, you can also shift on the fly between NIS and FSR live and compare with your own eyes.  Also set the ring for upscaling live on the fly and verify switching on the colored ring.

https://github.com/fholger/openvr_fsr/releases/tag/fsr_v2.1

And if you really want to try something to sharpen up the game, grab your openVR_api out of DCS and give it a whirl.  But it has some fps limiting issues and shadows basically don't work even worse, turn them off.

[56RAF_Roblex]

I have a 3070 and I am pretty happy with the spotting.  When I fly with person in our squad who is well known for seeing contacts nobody else can,  I often see them as well and sometimes see things he cannot. 

 

Initially my only gripe was that I was not recognising aircraft until they were quite close so I recorded a track with contacts getting closer and I tried every combination of settings, including doubling my resolution etc in SteamVR etc but nothing really made a major difference.  Eventually, just to see how bad my problem was, I watched the track back on my PC screen in 2D and realised that it was not actually any better.  It is just that with the VR being so much closer to your face and apparently bigger then you expect it to be clearer but really you get the same improvement as you would from putting your nose against the monitor i.e. not clearer just closer.

[Youtch]

It would be very interesting to know from which distance people can ID without using zoom.

 

I agree that spotting is generally good in VR, it is IDing that is more of a struggle.

[firdimigdi]

20 hours ago, Youtch said:

from which distance people can ID without using zoom

 

1. ID of Allies vs Axis at about 2.5km - apart from Pe2 and Bf110 which I need to get a bit closer or change angle to make sure if the skin color doesn't give it away.

2. ID to general model type at about 1km.

3. ID of specific model type at about 500-750m.

 

With zoom I suppose the 1st one bumps up to about 7km or so, the 2nd to about 2.5 - 3km and the last to 1.5 - 2km.

 

But it all depends highly on angle and skin colors so I imagine it's down to my IDing skills in general as well.

[Youtch]

That is impressive! All this with a G2 and withou mod?

 

I guess we will all want to know your settings now!

 

While I can spot beyond 10km, I need to be closer to ID, probably 700m for general model type, and I really close to identify the actual model type like 400m.

 

[firdimigdi]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

That is impressive! All this with a G2 and withou mod?

 

G2 at 100% (3156x3084) with FSR (not NIS) at 0.8 with 1.0 sharpening - my settings are as follows:

 

[KEY = graphics]
	3dhud = 0
	adapter = 0
	bloom_enable = 0
	canopy_ref = 0
	desktop_center = 1
	detail_rt_res = 2048
	draw_distance = 0.27400
	far_blocks = 1
	fps_counter = 1
	fps_limit = 60
	full_height = 1080
	full_width = 1920
	fullscreen = 1
	gamma = 1.00000
	grass_distance = 200.00000
	hdr_enable = 0
	land_anisotropy = 2
	land_detail = 2
	land_tex_lods = 3
	max_cache_res = 1
	max_clouds_quality = 2
	mgpu_compatible = 0
	mirrors = 2
	msaa = 0
	multisampling = 0
	or_ca = 0.00727
	or_dummy = 0
	or_enable = 1
	or_height = 2467
	or_hud_rad = 1
	or_hud_size = 0.75000
	or_ipd = 0.06098
	or_render_eye = 1
	or_sipdc = -0.15000
	or_width = 2524
	post_sharpen = 0
	preset = 2
	prop_blur_max_rpm_for_vr = 155
	rescale_target = 1.00000
	shadows_quality = 3
	ssao_enable = 0
	stereo_dof = 5.00000
	vsync = 0
	win_height = 1080
	win_width = 1920
[END]

 

As of the latest IL2 versions this allows me to play at 90Hz (and keeping sub 9ms frametimes) without reprojection in 8x8 scenarios of Bodenplatte with 1-before-overcast cloud settings on a 5900x/3080Ti.

 

I spent considerable amount of time in the model viewer on screen with the model zoomed out quite a bit and then in VR with the game paused or at very slow speed (1/32) and studying plane outlines, memorizing pixels if that helps any.

[Youtch]

Thank you very much. You have a slightly more powerfull system than mine, but i could live with slightly less FPS and it is worth for me to check.

 

Which version of FSR mod are you using? The most recent one with menu in game or the previous one? People complain that the most recent one is a shimmering feast.

 

Have you made any significant modification to your nvidia setting.

[TheSNAFU]

335th_grFirdimigda,

 

It looks like you have a frame rate limit of 60 fps on. How does that work with the g2 running at 90hz or are you running the g2 at 60hz? 

Edited January 20, 2022 by TheSNAFU

[firdimigdi]

50 minutes ago, TheSNAFU said:

335th_grFirdimigda,

 

It looks like you have a frame rate limit of 60 fps on. How does that work with the g2 running at 90hz or are you running the g2 at 60hz? 

 

It doesn't apply to VR, it only limits the framerate when I'm playing on screen.

 

  

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

Which version of FSR mod are you using? The most recent one with menu in game or the previous one? People complain that the most recent one is a shimmering feast.

 

Have you made any significant modification to your nvidia setting.

 

I use the latest FSR (2.1.1) - haven't noticed anything different in its image quality to the previous vers but I can probably test at some point to validate. No, nothing interesting in the nvidia settings, I used to run 2 pre-rendered frames for VR before 4.70x but have since reverted to "Use the 3d App settings". And since it will be asked, I do have hardware-accelerated GPU scheduling set to on but I find it makes no difference (in IL2 atleast) whether it is on or off.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by 335th_grFirdimigdi

[Youtch]

May I ask why you reverted? Is it because it is not needed any more and make no difference? Or it had some negative effect?

[firdimigdi]

The former - I found that the frametime doesn't increase any more to a point where it would help to have an extra frame pre-rendered so I just did away with it to keep it simple.

[Youtch]

1 hour ago, 335th_grFirdimigdi said:

The former - I found that the frametime doesn't increase any more to a point where it would help to have an extra frame pre-rendered so I just did away with it to keep it simple.

Understood! Thanks!

[Youtch]

@335th_grFirdimigdi: I finally, get to try and replicate completly your settings you had shared above.

I have also Texture Filtering Quality set to high performance and Anisotropic sample optimization on, which I don t know if you have or not.

 

The rest is exactly the same, and it is indeed very neat in terms of clarity for spotting other planes, thank you very much for that!

 

I just find that cockpit and land object are looking so so probably due to the blurry filter and the fact that you are not using any antiliaising.

 

Overall it looks like a total different experience from what I had so far, landscape/cockpit not looking so good, but running at 90fps and very good spotting and with almost no ghosting, which is good for dogfighting.

 

I guess it is very hard to nail the config that would be the best of both worlds, but each finetuning brings me one step closer to something beginning to be a satisfying VR experience.

 

It messed up totally my crosshair and position of my head in VR, is there anyway to reset or readjust automatically all the parameters starting with "or_"?

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Youtch

[TheSNAFU]

I adjust my head position in the cockpit by holding my view where I want to be and then press f10 to reset the default position. 

[TheSNAFU]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:22 PM, 335th_grFirdimigdi said:

 

It doesn't apply to VR, it only limits the framerate when I'm playing on screen.

 

 I wonder why then the VR Flight Sim Guy says to set it in his video on the most recent nvidia driver. That’s what led me to believe it works in vr. Though I tried it and as you said it did not work for me. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by TheSNAFU

[firdimigdi]

7 hours ago, TheSNAFU said:

 I wonder why then the VR Flight Sim Guy says to set it in his video on the most recent nvidia driver. That’s what led me to believe it works in vr. Though I tried it and as you said it did not work for me. 

 

He likely sets it in the nvidia profile of MSFS which does get affected by it. In that sim you'll be lucky to get 45fps occassionally in VR with a really high end system so if you don't like reprojection one thing you can do is cap it to your average framerate and then at least it's somewhat consistent. It's OK for general aviation and smooth flying but not very pleasant when throwing the plane around.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by 335th_grFirdimigdi

[Youtch]

12 hours ago, TheSNAFU said:

I adjust my head position in the cockpit by holding my view where I want to be and then press f10 to reset the default position. 

I found it. I was wondering if there was a way to reset it to factory settings.

[firdimigdi]

25 minutes ago, Youtch said:

I found it. I was wondering if there was a way to reset it to factory settings.

 

<installdir>\data\LuaScripts\snapviews - delete the corresponding .svc file (they're named by plane model).

[Youtch]

Excellent! Thank you.

It looks like you got your PhD in Il2!!!

 

In FSRmod I am assuming you are using FSR and not NIS correct?

 

At the end of the day i m very happy to trade slightly less sexy graphic for no ghosting of planes. I m quite happy with the outcome and have enjoyed once again dogfight.

 

The learning curve is soooo steep for VR that at some point you stop playing and enjoying and feel the only thing you are doing is finetuning of settings. This definitly requires tons of patience and frustration managememt.

 

Thanks again for your help in this process.

[firdimigdi]

1 minute ago, Youtch said:

In FSRmod I am assuming you are using FSR and not NIS correct?

 

Yes, I find it more pleasing to my eyes, somehow the sharpening filter seems to suit it better for my taste than it does NIS and since I saw no apparent difference in spotting-the-moving-pixels ability between the two I stuck with it.

[Youtch]

I didn t comment on something which happened as well when i applied your settings and made a massive difference.

 

Before my crosshair was very neat but planes behind it were blurry. Now after applying your settings, planes are neat and crosshair is blurry. As if the setting affected somehow distance for focal point. Is it possible?

 

I read that it is kind of normal for the crosshair to appear blurry and hence what i had before with a razorsharp crosshair was kind of unusual?

[firdimigdi]

No idea, I do not have this, my crosshair remains pixel-perfectly sharp (it'd drive me bonkers if it didn't), in fact I usually use the gunsight to make sure my headset is sitting correctly on my face (due to a mild asymmetry I have to yaw it slightly to get both eyes in the sweet spot).