Inaccuracies

[yui_]

I got Tank Crew quite recently and haven't played for too long yet, but I already noticed some.. very confusing things. I played a couple missions that the game states take place in July 1943, yet I encountered (in no small numbers too!) T-34-76 tanks with cupolas and three external fuel drums which are not appropriate for this time frame. I also saw (again in a mission taking place in July 1943) a Panzer IV/70, a vehicle introduced in 1944! There is also a mission during which you command a Panther tank from the 2. SS-Panzerdivision "Das Reich", the problem is that at the time when this mission apparently takes place (July 7th 1943) this unit had no Panther tanks. Apart from these more serious issues there's the fact that even tho action takes place in summer of 1943 you can still encounter large numbers of Pz IV G tanks in panzer gray.

[LukeFF]

Almost every single one of those issues are due to the way a third-party mission designer created the mission.

[yui_]

Well, they are present nonetheless. I'm just saying what I see. Also, was even the scripted campaign not made by the developers?

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, yui_ said:

Well, they are present nonetheless. I'm just saying what I see. Also, was even the scripted campaign not made by the developers?

 

What mission(s) in what scripted campaign (s) are you seeing these inaccuracies? We need more specifics. 

[Thad]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

What mission(s) in what scripted campaign (s) are you seeing these inaccuracies? We need more specifics. 

 

I suggest you not bother conversing with this guy. It's probably a waste of time.

[yui_]

10 hours ago, Thad said:

 

I suggest you not bother conversing with this guy. It's probably a waste of time.

Excuse me? May I know what makes you think that?

13 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

What mission(s) in what scripted campaign (s) are you seeing these inaccuracies? We need more specifics. 

First mission of the Soviet campaign. At the rear of the column there's a number of T-34s with the features I mentioned.

[BladeMeister]

13 hours ago, Thad said:

 

I suggest you not bother conversing with this guy. It's probably a waste of time.

After that stupid comment, I suggest you not bother conversing with this guy. It's probably a waste of time.

 

S!Blade<><

[Na-zdorovie]

there are many instances of the T34/76 with the external fuel tanks and also the cupola as added to another chassis, (info T 34/76 actually was never used by the Russians it was purely a German designation)

Edited January 2, 2022 by Na-zdorovie

[yui_]

1 hour ago, Na-zdorovie said:

there are many instances of the T34/76 with the external fuel tanks and also the cupola as added to another chassis, (info T 34/76 actually was never used by the Russians it was purely a German designation)

I'm aware, but I'm not sure how that's relevant. These features, whether installed on existing T-34s or added during production are not appropriate for July 1943.

The pistol ports on the sides of the turret (which I forgot to mention in my original post) are another feature which T-34s wouldn't have at that time.

[Yogiflight]

On 1/1/2022 at 6:22 PM, yui_ said:

I got Tank Crew quite recently and haven't played for too long yet, but I already noticed some.. very confusing things. I played a couple missions that the game states take place in July 1943, yet I encountered (in no small numbers too!) T-34-76 tanks with cupolas and three external fuel drums which are not appropriate for this time frame. I also saw (again in a mission taking place in July 1943) a Panzer IV/70, a vehicle introduced in 1944! There is also a mission during which you command a Panther tank from the 2. SS-Panzerdivision "Das Reich", the problem is that at the time when this mission apparently takes place (July 7th 1943) this unit had no Panther tanks. Apart from these more serious issues there's the fact that even tho action takes place in summer of 1943 you can still encounter large numbers of Pz IV G tanks in panzer gray.

If you have sources for those issues, you might either post them in the Bug Report section, or write a PM  @-DED-Rapidus

[MajorMagee]

It is physically possible that they were there, but I agree that they would have been a small part of the mix of types on the battlefield.

 

http://www.tankarchives.ca/2015/10/t-34-commander-cupolas.html

 

At least one Soviet unit is described as using them during Operation Citadel (96th Armoured Brigade, 375th Infantry Division, Kursk July 43).

[yui_]

33 minutes ago, MajorMagee said:

It is physically possible that they were there, but I agree that they would have been a small part of the mix of types on the battlefield.

 

http://www.tankarchives.ca/2015/10/t-34-commander-cupolas.html

 

At least one Soviet unit is described as using them during Operation Citadel (96th Armoured Brigade, 375th Infantry Division, Kursk July 43).

Funny you should mention that, I actually asked the owner of Tank Archives about T-34's cupola a couple days ago. According to Peter:

"The first T-34 tanks with commander's cupolas were due to be produced in June of 1943. Typically, tanks were shipped off in large batches several times per month and it would take about a month for a tank to arrive at the front lines after leaving the factory. It is conceivable for a few T-34 tanks with cupolas to have seen service during the Battle of Kursk, but realistically they would have been produced in late June, likely shipped out in early July, and then see battle in early August. As they say "never say never", but I would highly doubt that any T-34 with cupolas had been issued by early July."

Keep in mind this refers to the cupola. The 3 cylindrical external fuel drums and pistol ports on the sides of the turret are later features and the T-34 in the configuration shown in the screenshot I posted still isn't appropriate for July 1943.

38 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

If you have sources for those issues, you might either post them in the Bug Report section, or write a PM  @-DED-Rapidus

The issues I listed are not bugs.

Edited January 2, 2022 by yui_

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, yui_ said:

The issues I listed are not bugs.

Yes I know, but this is the section, he regularly visits. But as I mentioned, you can write him a PM, or simply adress your thoughts directly at him.

[[SN]_Reaper_]

03.01.2022 в 00:02, MajorMagee сказал:

It is physically possible that they were there, but I agree that they would have been a small part of the mix of types on the battlefield.

 

http://www.tankarchives.ca/2015/10/t-34-commander-cupolas.html

 

At least one Soviet unit is described as using them during Operation Citadel (96th Armoured Brigade, 375th Infantry Division, Kursk July 43).

 

I didn't know that State Defense Committee Resolutions (GKO)are translated into English. That's great. I will allow myself some additions. Indeed, these decrees determined the plan for military production. At the same time, for various reasons, the factories did not always fulfill the orders precisely and on time. As for the situation with the commander's cupolas, the situation with their introduction and production at different factories was as follows. I used data from Russian military historian Maxim Kolomiets' book Soviet Medium Tank T-34.

 

Some information about this situation can be found in the materials for the July 23rd 1943 meeting of the board of the People's Commissariat of the Tank Industry (NKTP) sent to the People's Commissar of the Tank Industry V.Malyshev: "Plants No. 183, Kirovsky and Uralmash did not perform in June and July
months of production of tanks with commander's cupolas, thus disrupting GKO decree No. 3531ss of June 7 this year and NKTP order No. 356s of July 6.

 

As of July 26, 1943 the situation at the tank factories was as follows.

 

No. 112 Sormovo
1 piece was assembled on the tank, the vehicle was undergoing tests;

 

No. 183 UTZ
78 vehicles with commander's cupolas were shipped;

 

UZTM (Uralmash)
delivered to the military representative 3 pieces;

 

ChKZ (Chelyabinsk Kirov Plant)
received from UZTM 20 pieces, assembled 12 pieces;

 

No. 174 Omsk
handed over machines - 1 pieces.

 

Thus only Plant No. 183 managed to deliver 78 tanks with commander's cupolas to the troops. Mass deliveries of the new tanks took place in August 1943. In the 96th Tank Brigade during the defensive phase of the Battle of Kursk Bulge there were no such tanks. Perhaps this brigade or other units received new tanks to make up for their losses, but I have no such information. The Battle of Kursk officially ended on August 23, and theoretically tanks with commander's cupolas could have taken part in the final phase of the battle, but you have to study the documents.

 

I also tried to determine which plant could produce that T-34 with the commander's cupolas, which is present in the game. Here we need to consider a combination of features: cylindrical fuel tanks, type of rollers, hull elements.

 

The introduction of the new fuel tanks was as follows.

 

ChKZ from October 10, 1942. 2 on the right and 1 on the left.

 

No.112 Sormovo from summer 1943, exact date not known. Also 2 on the right and 1 on the left.

 

No.183 UTZ from September 1943. 2 on the right and 1 on the left.

 

UZTM most likely did not have time to implement, because in September assembly of T-34 at this plant has stopped, though hulls and turrets were shipped for other plants until 1944.

 

No.174 from December 1943, later than all. One on each side.

 

Thus two factories can claim the game T-34. ChKZ and No.112. The undercarriage is the same - rubberized stamped rollers. But on the tanks of Plant No.112 the shape of the handrails is different. They are bent from a single bar, while on ChKZ tanks they are composite. But there is one detail that confuses me.

 

The rectangular hatch was replaced by a round one back in 1942 and it is strange to see it on tanks of the '43 model. 

I still think this is a tank of the ChKZ plant.

 

By the way, the pistol ports appeared already in the spring of '43, as well as the panorama of PTK at the loader. This is a drawing of the 1943 T-34 tank turret

 

I apologize if some technical terms are translated incorrectly. English is not my first language 

[SCG_Neun]

It's a question of mission design for the most part.  I wouldn't be too concerned about it as we will be seeing some additional tanks as we work our way into Normandy...post Kursk.  The neat thing, is you saw tanks so well represented within the sim that you easily recognized them for what they were, a credit to the well made tanks in this game.

[ShampooX]

well OP I think the only logical choice is to stop playing all together.  that will teach these developers to get it right next time.

[Frinik22]

Good one Jawbreaker, let's constructively tell the guy who is pointing out some inaccuracies to gently f.. himself for mentioning them. Great way to encourage open-minded discussions and debate. After all this is only the forum of a WW2 tank simulator which aims to be realistic and accurate. I mean I understand the mission designer introduced vehicles of his choice  that may have been anachronic ally placed and that's his prerogative. But it's not a crime or an assault on decency for a player to ask why and point it out? He did it in a polite and courteous manner so why should he be told to stop playing the game or dismissed as a guy not to waste time with? 

 

Really Yui, you saw a Jadgpanzer IV L70 in that mission? I wasn't even aware this vehicle existed in game. 

[Frinik22]

I can confirm. I was curious so I played the user-made campaign PanzerDivision and Lo and behold there are Jadgpanzer IV L70s in the first mission. I can only surmise that the mission designer wanted to have spgs accompanying the Tigers in the campaign and since at the time of design no Stug III Gs had been modelled or introduced into the game he had to use what was available. However I am puzzled? Where do these JP IV L70 s come from? Are they part of some of the 1944 IL2 air campaigns?

Edited January 8, 2022 by Frinik22

[SCG_Neun]

 

 

 

I'd like to see a snap shot of the Jadgpanzer IVL70 in the game.  Unless I'm overlooking something...this is a close as we have currently.  I can't find any in the mission builder. The other T34 referenced is just an AI vehicle only to give some immersion and not a player tank.  I understand some people have an eye for accuracy and I always appreciate this kind of feedback because it helps me focus on some of the specifics I tend to overlook in just playing the game.

 

Note updated to show JagdPaner IVL70 is in mission builder after all.....

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by SCG_Neun

[Alexmarine]

@SCG_Neun @Frinik22 Jagdpanzer IV were added as AI units for the Bodenplatte career, can't find the exact DD in which they were added but they have been in since fall of 2019

Adding a little more on the why the JagdPz are present in the mission: Probably the creator thought that camo wise they looked better to go with the Tigers as both have the dunkelgelb camo while the older StuG has the early grey camo, untill at least the coming StuG G will replace them of course.

 

This bring up the fact that many of the older german assets (with grey camo) definitely need a recolouring, at least, to dunkelgelb to make them correct for the 1943/45 period. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Alexmarine

[SCG_Neun]

Thanks for information Alexmarine...

[Frinik22]

BTW I am sorry I didn't take a snapshot but I am hanging trouble with that. I certainly can play the missions again and using Geforce experience I can take snapshots.

 

 

In response to NCG_Neun  sceptical comments about their presence in the mission, I am very familiar with the Jadgpanzer IV L70. I have played that vehicle in other sims and I have read a lot about it and see a few documentaries on Youtube. It's low , flat silhouette is unmistakable. To be sure I even pressed f5 at the end of the mission to get close ups of all he vehicles.I also confirm it was the L70 variant(kwk42) as the canon was without the muzzle brake at the tip which was only fitted on the L48 variant as far as I know. BTW they are also in dunkelgelb in the mission which I found  odd given that JP IVs traditionally used a tricolour camo. As I speculated I believe the author probably wanted to have spgs accompanying the Tigers and the Stug may not have been modelled or available at the time of mission design.

I tried taking a snapshot using Geforce experience however no luck. I get the must use a supported game error message. For some reason either Tank Crew is not yet on the list of game supported by Geforce Exp. or may be because I installed the game on a drive other than the C drive and thus GE does not accept it. I added the game manually to my list but ti doe s not appear on the panel which shows all my  supported games. However I found another way to verify . If you have the campaign  Panzer Division just click to start the campaign and click to play the first mission (01) .The cover image for the mission shows a Tiger in the foreground, another one in the middle and in the background you can clearly see 4 Jagdpanzer IVs L70 in dunkelgelb.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Frinik22

[Alexmarine]

1 hour ago, Frinik22 said:

BTW they are also in dunkelgelb in the mission which I found  odd given that JP IVs traditionally used a tricolour camo. 

 

Indeed doing some research I would say that given the timeframe in which they were produced the Jagdpanzer should be modelled with a 3 or even a 4 colour (if the oxide-colored base is not fully covered) camo 

[SCG_Neun]

4 hours ago, Frinik22 said:

BTW I am sorry I didn't take a snapshot but I am hanging trouble with that. I certainly can play the missions again and using Geforce experience I can take snapshots.

 

 

In response to NCG_Neun  sceptical comments about their presence in the mission, I am very familiar with the Jadgpanzer IV L70. I have played that vehicle in other sims and I have read a lot about it and see a few documentaries on Youtube. It's low , flat silhouette is unmistakable. To be sure I even pressed f5 at the end of the mission to get close ups of all he vehicles.I also confirm it was the L70 variant(kwk42) as the canon was without the muzzle brake at the tip which was only fitted on the L48 variant as far as I know. BTW they are also in dunkelgelb in the mission which I found  odd given that JP IVs traditionally used a tricolour camo. As I speculated I believe the author probably wanted to have spgs accompanying the Tigers and the Stug may not have been modelled or available at the time of mission design.

I tried taking a snapshot using Geforce experience however no luck. I get the must use a supported game error message. For some reason either Tank Crew is not yet on the list of game supported by Geforce Exp. or may be because I installed the game on a drive other than the C drive and thus GE does not accept it. I added the game manually to my list but ti doe s not appear on the panel which shows all my  supported games. However I found another way to verify . If you have the campaign  Panzer Division just click to start the campaign and click to play the first mission (01) .The cover image for the mission shows a Tiger in the foreground, another one in the middle and in the background you can clearly see 4 Jagdpanzer IVs L70 in dunkelgelb.

Sorry Frinik22...I think we were posting at the same time...and I didn't see yours when I went back in and pulled a screenshot of the Stug I posted.  I went back into the mission builder and by golly it is there. I never noticed it before.

Edited January 9, 2022 by SCG_Neun

[Frinik22]

No worries SCG_SCG☺️ no offence taken and none given!  I guess we should ask the missions creator to tell us why he decided to put JP IVs in his mission. Now that there are Stug G III it should be possible for somebody who bought the model to substitute the JP IVs with those.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Frinik22

[yui_]

On 1/3/2022 at 12:11 AM, Yogiflight said:

Yes I know, but this is the section, he regularly visits. But as I mentioned, you can write him a PM, or simply adress your thoughts directly at him.

Pardon me, I'm pretty new here and this section seemed appropriate.

 

On 1/8/2022 at 6:57 AM, Jawbreaker1-6 said:

well OP I think the only logical choice is to stop playing all together.  that will teach these developers to get it right next time.

 

Yeah, this is exactly why I had reservations about making that post... I don't really understand this kind of response. Did I come off as rude? I assure you the reason I'm pointing out those inaccuracies is only to help the devs (and mission designers) improve the game. Also, please keep in mind that at the time of writing the original post I was unaware some missions are not made by the developers.

 

On 1/4/2022 at 11:19 PM, dragon_7611 said:

 

I didn't know that State Defense Committee Resolutions (GKO)are translated into English. That's great. I will allow myself some additions. Indeed, these decrees determined the plan for military production. At the same time, for various reasons, the factories did not always fulfill the orders precisely and on time. As for the situation with the commander's cupolas, the situation with their introduction and production at different factories was as follows. I used data from Russian military historian Maxim Kolomiets' book Soviet Medium Tank T-34.

 

Some information about this situation can be found in the materials for the July 23rd 1943 meeting of the board of the People's Commissariat of the Tank Industry (NKTP) sent to the People's Commissar of the Tank Industry V.Malyshev: "Plants No. 183, Kirovsky and Uralmash did not perform in June and July
months of production of tanks with commander's cupolas, thus disrupting GKO decree No. 3531ss of June 7 this year and NKTP order No. 356s of July 6.

 

As of July 26, 1943 the situation at the tank factories was as follows.

 

No. 112 Sormovo
1 piece was assembled on the tank, the vehicle was undergoing tests;

 

No. 183 UTZ
78 vehicles with commander's cupolas were shipped;

 

UZTM (Uralmash)
delivered to the military representative 3 pieces;

 

ChKZ (Chelyabinsk Kirov Plant)
received from UZTM 20 pieces, assembled 12 pieces;

 

No. 174 Omsk
handed over machines - 1 pieces.

 

Thus only Plant No. 183 managed to deliver 78 tanks with commander's cupolas to the troops. Mass deliveries of the new tanks took place in August 1943. In the 96th Tank Brigade during the defensive phase of the Battle of Kursk Bulge there were no such tanks. Perhaps this brigade or other units received new tanks to make up for their losses, but I have no such information. The Battle of Kursk officially ended on August 23, and theoretically tanks with commander's cupolas could have taken part in the final phase of the battle, but you have to study the documents.

 

I also tried to determine which plant could produce that T-34 with the commander's cupolas, which is present in the game. Here we need to consider a combination of features: cylindrical fuel tanks, type of rollers, hull elements.

 

The introduction of the new fuel tanks was as follows.

 

ChKZ from October 10, 1942. 2 on the right and 1 on the left.

 

No.112 Sormovo from summer 1943, exact date not known. Also 2 on the right and 1 on the left.

 

No.183 UTZ from September 1943. 2 on the right and 1 on the left.

 

UZTM most likely did not have time to implement, because in September assembly of T-34 at this plant has stopped, though hulls and turrets were shipped for other plants until 1944.

 

No.174 from December 1943, later than all. One on each side.

 

Thus two factories can claim the game T-34. ChKZ and No.112. The undercarriage is the same - rubberized stamped rollers. But on the tanks of Plant No.112 the shape of the handrails is different. They are bent from a single bar, while on ChKZ tanks they are composite. But there is one detail that confuses me.

 

The rectangular hatch was replaced by a round one back in 1942 and it is strange to see it on tanks of the '43 model. 

I still think this is a tank of the ChKZ plant.

 

By the way, the pistol ports appeared already in the spring of '43, as well as the panorama of PTK at the loader. This is a drawing of the 1943 T-34 tank turret

 

I apologize if some technical terms are translated incorrectly. English is not my first language 

 

Thanks, dragon! That's very informative. Yet more proof this specific model is out of place.
The rectangular access hatch isn't the only confusing detail about this T-34, just take a look at the hull machine gun:

 

On 1/9/2022 at 5:02 PM, Alexmarine said:

 

Indeed doing some research I would say that given the timeframe in which they were produced the Jagdpanzer should be modelled with a 3 or even a 4 colour (if the oxide-colored base is not fully covered) camo 

 

I'm not sure when it comes to Panzer IV/70 but I know "red oxide camo" is a myth when it comes to Panthers and I'd imagine it's no different here. Were there specific orders in the Pz IV/70 camouflage guidelines to leave red oxide exposed? Factories followed those closely and the quality control process was enforced right up to the end of the war. Any deviation from the set vehicle camouflage finish would require a specific exemption from Heeres-Waffenamt.

Edited January 11, 2022 by yui_

[Yogiflight]

22 minutes ago, yui_ said:

Pardon me, I'm pretty new here and this section seemed appropriate.

Don't get me wrong. This is the correct section. Unfortunately you never get any answers or reactions of the developers in here. To be sure your suggestions get read by them you either have to adress it to one of them or post it in the Bug Report section. Pretty unsatisfying, TBH, but unfortunately it is the way it is. So what I wrote was not meant as an offense to you, but an information, what to do, if you like to get wrong things changed. Posting it here in this section is a good idea nevertheless, to discuss it with other players, who might have other informations about your topic, like it happened here. And don't bother stupid comments, like the one of Jawbreaker. There simply are players around, who think everything is perfect the way it is and there is no room for suggestions for improvements.

 

31 minutes ago, yui_ said:

I'm not sure when it comes to Panzer IV/70 but I know "red oxide camo" is a myth when it comes to Panthers and I'd imagine it's no different here. Were there specific orders in the Pz IV/70 camouflage guidelines to leave red oxide exposed? Factories followed those closely and the quality control process was enforced right up to the end of the war. Any deviation from the set vehicle camouflage finish would require a specific exemption from Heeres-Waffenamt.

From what I heard, the track tops were not painted to save color and therefore remained with the red anti-rust paint.

[Alexmarine]

2 hours ago, yui_ said:

 

I'm not sure when it comes to Panzer IV/70 but I know "red oxide camo" is a myth when it comes to Panthers and I'd imagine it's no different here. Were there specific orders in the Pz IV/70 camouflage guidelines to leave red oxide exposed? 

 

I admit that I don't have such definite knowledge on this particular topic, from what I infer there wasn't a specific order to leave the oxide parts exposed, only that dunkelgelb was to not be applied as a full base anymore and more as another element of the final camo pattern, possibly leading to some areas not getting covered as to save up on colours 

 

[[SN]_Reaper_]

9 часов назад, yui_ сказал:

Thanks, dragon! That's very informative. Yet more proof this specific model is out of place.
The rectangular access hatch isn't the only confusing detail about this T-34, just take a look at the hull machine gun:

 

Quite right. There are many such inconsistencies in this tank. And the machine gun, or, for example, the guide wheel.

Such rubberized wheels were put on tanks of the 1940 model. Since there are early T-34 AIs in the game, they simply took the old hull from them and put a new turret on it. I believe this was done for the purpose of unification and economy. AI vehicles are just statists, it provides the necessary entourage, although the developers need to be more careful in modeling even these units, and avoid the obvious bloopers. In general, I am impressed that in our community there are people like you, so carefully studying the history of armored vehicles