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Possibilities of a late war eastern front module


Eisenfaustus
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The idea of this topic is to discuss what options for a late war eastern front module could be.

I am aware that many would prefer a different theatre altogether (PTO and MTO most prominently). So the question of this discussion is not wether a late war Eastern Front module would be better or worse than other possible modules but rather:

 

What options would make a late war eastern front module fun to play?

 

I‘ll start by giving my thoughts about a possible planeset because from that a time frame can be deducted from which in turn a location might offer. 
 

Planeset 

 

Because the module has to be worthwhile in it‘s own right even for people who don’t own any previous modules I personally think that a 4+1 vs 4+1 planeset including at least 2 single seat fighter per side makes the most sense. Furthermore I guess that from an economic point of view more than one multi crew and one two seater per side would not be cost efficient. 
That said I‘ll start with the harder side as late war Luftwaffe is already quite fleshed out. 

Axis single seaters: The last remaining variants that were issued in quantity to justify their inclusion in a standard edition would be a Bf 109 G10 and a Fw 190 A9. While I absolutely understand all those who say we have enough 109s and 190s already (I agree basically) I think that there are still enough who would actually enjoy the sweet spot between a G14 and a K4 or an Anton on steroids. 
Nevertheless these choice dictates that the career starts earliest in November 44.  
 

Axis two seater: I think here a Ju 87 D5 would be an excellent option. Although no match for soviet fighters an strafing Stuka would be fun - and it’s an iconic plane that soldiered on until war’s end. 
 

Axis Multi crew: Here I’d go for a Do 217. The Ju 188 would historically be as valid yet it’s closer to a ju 88 making the Do 217 the more unique plane for longtime customers.

 

Axis collector: Here I’d choose the Ta 152 H1. No significance but I just would like to fly one BoX quality and such a module would be the only to justify its virtual existence. Another viable option might be a He 162. 

 

Soviet single seaters: I‘d pick a Yak 3 as it‘s a little more iconic then the Yak 9U with similar performance. La 7 would be my second pick being the first air cooled Lavochkin to become part of a Standard edition. 
 

Soviet two seater: Here I‘d personally pick an arrow winged IL2 M3. This flesh out the aircraft that gives this great sim its name. Yet an IL10 might be technically the more interesting plane. 
 

Soviet multi crew: The Tu2 seems to be the most important soviet medium bomber of that period although I might be wrong on this. 
 

Soviet collector: I think the most fitting single seater here would actually be the Yak 9U since the P63 saw no action on the Eastern front. Or did I miss another Lend and Lease fighter not yet covered in BoN or BoBp?

 

Location: Given the time dictated by the German fighters I think Berlin might be a sensible choice. A famous engagement that basically ended the war in Europe. Also the best chance to include a Ta152 with at least a little historical accuracy 😄. However from a historical and tactical point of view Hungary should offer a better background. 
 

What do you think?

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Meh. I kinda like the idea of the soviet late war fighters (and possibly the Tu-2), but the rest doesn't really tingle me at all.

 

I think everybody knows my preferences by now 😅

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Very high propability. 2nd likely scenario would be 1943 Med including Tunisia, Sicily and southern Italy. I however favor Eastfront. That is what this game is all about. Tactical air war, CAS, etc. And in the east there is still the whole timeframe of 1943-1945 to fill with modules when the VVS turned the table on the nazis. Would love to have at least 2 more modules of eastfront fun and an additional very early Barbarossa module including I-153s, Hs-123s, Ju-87-Bs, early Yak-1, early LaGG-3, SB-2 etc.

Edited by sevenless
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Tu-2 is my white whale, I need it in something and would pay the full $80 for one of those alone

 

I think you kinda have to soothe the stubborn Western-only people a bit with an aircraft you can use in the West, too. Maybe a lend-lease bomber? I'm not sure if A-20Gs were still on the Eastern frontlines in late '44 but that's a plane the Soviets flew a lot of

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25 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

Tu-2 is my white whale, I need it in something and would pay the full $80 for one of those alone

 

I think you kinda have to soothe the stubborn Western-only people a bit with an aircraft you can use in the West, too. Maybe a lend-lease bomber? I'm not sure if A-20Gs were still on the Eastern frontlines in late '44 but that's a plane the Soviets flew a lot of

You mean those same Western only people who bought BoS, BoM and BoK? Those selfish bastages? 

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Hungary -44 would be the dream. I'm Hungary for a Yak -3.... Geddit?? And LA7 for Allied Collector.

 

Given that no more than 15 TA-152's were operational at any time, though, and that many already released Axis single seaters will be useable in this scenario (fuel shortages are not modelled...), maybe change things up a bit and give the Axis a Storch, or other light duties / obvs plane & develop that area of gameplay a bit - then they'd have something capable of matching the PO-2... 

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Personally, the only way I'd be interested in it is if they can throw in some fun Lend-Lease stuff. A-20G, a P-39 with less anemic engine timers, hell maybe even a later model P-40 (although that probably wouldn't do well in a late war scenario,) and this time give us the option of American bomb loadouts so we can use them on the West front maps properly!

 

GTotta admit though,P-63 is something I really really want to fly in the sim. Close to Mustang Performance, but with P-39 quirks and the giant cannon. Sounds like a ton of fun! shame it apparently never saw much service in the European theater. I'd almost argue for it to be added anyway as a collector just to make the planeset more interesting.

 

Overall though, I'd much rather see Italy 1943 over this. Bring on the Pasta Planes!

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I'd prefer: a Ju-188 to a Do-217... the Do-217 has been withdrawn by the end of 1944 with plans for 1945 being to only operate the Ju-88/188/388. It might also be easier to research. The Do-217 has an advantage in having a larger internal bomb load, and larger bomb load overall, whereas the Ju-188 has more defensive firepower.

 

If we were getting a Do-217, I'd also recommend an E-4... they were still in service in some strength when the Do-217 was withdrawn, and they'd also be useful in 1942 and 1943 (as well as 1944). They are also very similar in performance overall, albeit with worse visibility and a stronger forward firing armament for anti-ship work.

 

I'd also prefer a He-162 to a Ta-152H... it is less focussed on high altitude performance and if BMW hadn't run into as much trouble developing the engine then there could've be a substantial number operational before the end of the war (instead of just a handful of combat sorties). It'd be really interesting to see what it is like at this level of fidelity - and it also is suited to the altitudes we fly at (where the Ta-152H would struggle).

 

As for the Tu-2, it isn't as numerically important as the Pe-2 (which still outnumbered it in production) and lacked the range of the Il-4, but it is the fastest and most powerful tactical day bomber - and it'd be really neat to see it. So I'd prefer it to a late model Pe-2 (or even the Il-4 in spite of the fact that the Il-4 is a viable target for the Ju-88C and would be a good addition someday).

 

  

2 hours ago, Diggun said:

Given that no more than 15 TA-152's were operational at any time, though, and that many already released Axis single seaters will be useable in this scenario (fuel shortages are not modelled...), maybe change things up a bit and give the Axis a Storch, or other light duties / obvs plane & develop that area of gameplay a bit - then they'd have something capable of matching the PO-2... 

 

Your argument makes sense - but I find the desperation and elegance of the He-162 a bit too appealing. I also think having one flashy 'secret project' is commercially useful - especially if balanced with something more exotic for those of us who've gotten over the need for flashiness and want something unique and new as an experience.

 

But I basically agree with something exotic like an Fi-156 artillery spotter (although that might best go in its own DLC with a U-2VS artillery spotter etc.) Having advanced artillery spotting gameplay added eventually also synergises well with Flying Circus.

 

P.S. I'd like a Ju-87D5 - although I think even the night bombing units were being withdrawn by '45? I suppose if we include '44 as well though it'd make sense. But it is a candidate for an aircraft that doesn't 'fit'.

Edited by Avimimus
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2 potentional aircraft that could be considered are the A20G and the Ar196.

Both aircraft would provide new gameplay, A20G used torpedo's and the Ar196 is an floatplane that can even be launced from cruisers.

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20 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

I'd prefer: a Ju-188 to a Do-217... the Do-217 has been withdrawn by the end of 1944 with plans for 1945 being to only operate the Ju-88/188/388.

Apart from that, as @Eisenfaustusmentioned in his OP, the Ju 188 is quite close to the Ju 88, which would make it much more likely to be implemented. I doubt the Devs would make two completely new bombers. Although the Tu-2 does look pretty similar to the Pe-2 as well. Looks like its larger brother.

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11 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Apart from that, as @Eisenfaustusmentioned in his OP, the Ju 188 is quite close to the Ju 88, which would make it much more likely to be implemented. I doubt the Devs would make two completely new bombers. However the Tu-2 does look pretty similar to the Pe-2 as well. Looks like its larger brother.

 

The Ju-188 has a lot of components from the Ju-88, and the surviving Ju-388 might be useful for some components too (as it is a 188 derivative). With the 188 one gets a new cockpit and an upgrade in defensive armament (Anything from 1xMG131 and 1xMG81 to 2xMG151 and 2xMG131 ...compared to 3xMG15 and 1xMG81 for the Ju-88).

 

The Do-217 upgrades the bomb-load substantially (1000kg over the Ju-88/188, and much of that internal) but its armament maxes out at 2xMG131 (in comparison the Ju-188 could carry another two flexible 20mm cannons in addition to its two heavy machine guns - albeit the forward 20mm cannon was usually removed and thus probably shouldn't count). Having two dorsal turrets - one with a heavy machine gun and one with a high velocity 20mm cannon is a n attraction though.

 

The Tu-2 though is completely different from the Pe-2 - an unrelated design with new engines, structure, everything really...

 

 

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1 minute ago, Avimimus said:

compared to 3xMG15 and 1xMG81 for the Ju-88).

You mean 5xMG81 (to be more precisely 3xMG81 and 1xMG81Z) for the Ju88 A4, we have in game.

 

4 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

The Tu-2 though is completely different from the Pe-2 - an unrelated design with new engines, structure, everything really...

But it looks very similar to the Pe-2. In 1946 I always had to go very close to recognize it as Tu-2.

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4 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

What options would make a late war eastern front module fun to play?

 

 

What do you think?

Ground war, ground war, and ground war, including infantry and horse drawn columns.  The single biggest hole in the eastern front maps, cause there sure as hell ain't no B-17 hopes there.

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12 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

You mean 5xMG81 (to be more precisely 3xMG81 and 1xMG81Z) for the Ju88 A4, we have in game.

 

Ah! Yes, thanks! MG81 vs. MG81Z! I hadn't caught that. Still thinking in terms of the older Il-2. The difference isn't that substantial in firepower though (other than having to reload manually with the MG15).

 

12 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

But it looks very similar to the Pe-2. In 1946 I always had to go very close to recognize it as Tu-2.

 

The thicker rear fuselage, huge radial engines, and second dorsal gunner didn't stand out? Trust me - they're completely different beasts (and would be to fly).

 

3 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Ground war, ground war, and ground war, including infantry and horse drawn columns. 

 

Yes, horses and infantry would be nice features - particularly horses (for depicting realistic late-war columns)

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More Wunderwaffen.  Nazi flying saucers.   Die Glocke.  Subterranean Antarctic bases.  Hitler on a Tyrannosaurus Rex!

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Speaking as a primarily offline player, the only late war scenarios that remained static enough to include a some what lengthy career mode are:

  • Leningrad/Karelia: October 1943 (?) - September 1944
  • Crimea/Odessa: October 1943 - May 1944
  • Courland/East Prussia - August 1944 - May 1945
  • Budapest/Lake Balaton: October 1944 - March 1945
  • Oder-Berlin: January - May 1945
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29 minutes ago, l_commando said:

 

  • Oder-Berlin: January - May 1945

 

They will add a healthy portion of what is now poland to it. I guess Vistula-Oder Operation will be the core. Those last 2 weeks from 16th april at Seelow Heights until capitulation of Berlin at 2nd May will deliver the title for the module.

 

On a front nearly 1,000 miles wide, over 2.2 million Soviet soldiers, 6,400 tanks and assault guns, and 5,000 aircraft attacked westward into Poland in one of history's largest battles.

 

We already had this topic

 

 

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18 minutes ago, l_commando said:

Speaking as a primarily offline player, the only late war scenarios that remained static enough to include a some what lengthy career mode are:

  • Leningrad/Karelia: October 1943 (?) - September 1944
  • Crimea/Odessa: October 1943 - May 1944
  • Courland/East Prussia - August 1944 - May 1945
  • Budapest/Lake Balaton: October 1944 - March 1945
  • Oder-Berlin: January - May 1945

 

I wonder if it'd be possible to do a 1944-1945 scenario (Fw-190A9/Bf-109G10)

...and also do a Leningrad/Karelia scenario that covered a larger 1941-1944 timeframe (allowing the use of the Fw-190A4/Bf-109G1 as the new German fighters for that module)?

 

Alternatively one could go:

-Fw-190A9/Ta-152/He-162 for 1944-1945

-Bf-109E3/Fw-190A4/Bf-109G10 for Leningrad (to capture a larger time span for that scenario).

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5 hours ago, sevenless said:

Very high propability. 2nd likely scenario would be 1943 Med including Tunisia, Sicily and southern Italy.

 I'd really like this theater for nothing more than to have a dedicated maritime patrol career on. I love the Eastern Front, but maritime raiding in Kuban can be underwhelming and BoN focuses too much on the channel for any Atlantic option.


MTO, focused on Sicily/Malta/Tunisia, would be absolutely perfect for raids on shipping, whether as Allied or Axis. Really hoping we get to see it.

27 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

They will add a healthy portion of what is now poland to it. I guess Vistula-Oder Operation will be the core. Those last 2 weeks from 16th april at Seelow Heights until capitulation of Berlin at 2nd May will deliver the title for the module.

 

On a front nearly 1,000 miles wide, over 2.2 million Soviet soldiers, 6,400 tanks and assault guns, and 5,000 aircraft attacked westward into Poland in one of history's largest battles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps. The only issue is Berlin is an absolutely massive, sprawling metropolis far beyond the capabilities of the engine. They could Moscowize it and make it low-res and out of bounds, but Berlin itself is out of the quetsion.

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6 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Location: Given the time dictated by the German fighters I think Berlin might be a sensible choice. A famous engagement that basically ended the war in Europe. Also the best chance to include a Ta152 with at least a little historical accuracy 😄. However from a historical and tactical point of view Hungary should offer a better background.

 

Herein is the problem with a late-war Eastern Front DLC:

 

If you pick a more visually interesting landscape for the setting, in this case Hungary being the best candidate, then you eliminate the possibility of including more novel fighters like the Ta-152 and He-162.

 

Thus you have a potentially better map with a duller plane lineup. I don't see a way of making 5 German planes that will be compelling from a marketing/novelty perspective, without adding something high-performance and rare. Yes, a Storch would be fun to fly, but A) would it make a good career in 1945? and B) would it be an incentive to buy the whole DLC? Doubtful on both fronts.

 

By contrast, if the map is centered around Berlin, we can have the high-end German planes, but the map will be quite dull because Berlin itself can't be mapped. So it will more or less be a flat and featureless map like several other Eastern Euro ones we already have.

 

6 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Axis two seater: I think here a Ju 87 D5 would be an excellent option. Although no match for soviet fighters an strafing Stuka would be fun - and it’s an iconic plane that soldiered on until war’s end. 

 

I mostly agree with your list, except for this. I think the Stuka at this stage of the war is a non-entity. The Fw-190 had more or less replaced it by '45. It would also be very boring from a marketing perspective.

 

To make the DLC more exciting, I think it's necessary to include both the Ta-152 and the He-162. I don't care how much whining goes on about unicorns. It's either that or the inevitable whining from too many 'samey' German planes to ones we already have.

 

There will be whining no matter what the devs decide. But at least rare German planes might increase the sales potential of the DLC. Which is ultimately more important than personal tastes.

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2 minutes ago, Duce_de_Zoop said:

Perhaps. The only issue is Berlin is an absolutely massive, sprawling metropolis far beyond the capabilities of the engine. They could Moscowize it and make it low-res and out of bounds, but Berlin itself is out of the quetsion.

 

Remains to be seen. Moscow was released when? 2016? We have made some good progress since then both with the game engine and the end-user hardware.

 

11 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

There will be whining no matter what the devs decide. But at least rare German planes might increase the sales potential of the DLC. Which is ultimately more important than personal tastes.

 

That is absolutely true. The setting needs to appeal to their installed base and needs to have the potential to attract new customers. Some "fanciness" with regard to "rarely" sim-modeled planes helps for sure.

 

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15 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

Herein is the problem with a late-war Eastern Front DLC:

 

If you pick a more visually interesting landscape for the setting, in this case Hungary being the best candidate, then you eliminate the possibility of including more novel fighters like the Ta-152 and He-162.

 

I've been to Hungary, it's not as interesting a landscape as Italy.

Italy also offers us a wide variety of new and interesting aircraft...

Don't forget the new cloud effects!

Vesuvius 1944!

 

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22 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

I've been to Hungary, it's not as interesting a landscape as Italy.

Italy also offers us a wide variety of new and interesting aircraft...

And that is before we even start to think of their gorgeous food... Hmmmm. Il2 Battaglia della cucina. 🍕🍷

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41 minutes ago, ROCKET_KNUT said:

And that is before we even start to think of their gorgeous food... Hmmmm. Il2 Battaglia della cucina. 🍕🍷

Whoa, no one said anything about cuisine.  There the Hungarians can pretty much match the Italians.  The food there is divine, if lesser known than the Italian.

 

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They don't have to do a late war eastern front scenario in order to round out the German s/e planeset. Just add the planes that were present at Normandy and Bodenplatte already, but were not included...109G6/AS, G14/AS, 109G-10 along with FW190A-9 and F-9. There are a ton of planes left that could be done, both early and late war, both Allied and Axis - with the maps we already have...early P-38s and P-47s as well are much needed. Also the British Meteor...

 

You need Berlin for the Russian birds, not the German ones.

 

The exception to our current maps would be the Me-163 Comet...it would be a real shame from a technology standpoint not to have that aircraft added to the sim. The 163 from a research standpoint may have been the most important of any, employing high speed/rocket power/swept wings/lifting body research that was used so much post war. And it would be a frikkin blast to fly.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

The exception to our current maps would be the Me-163 Comet...it would be a real shame from a technology standpoint not to have that aircraft added to the sim. The 163 from a research standpoint may have been the most important of any, employing high speed/rocket power/swept wings/lifting body research that was used so much post war. And it would be a frikkin blast to fly.

 

We don't have a target for it though... so we might as well have one of the tailless research gliders!

 

4 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

They don't have to do a late war eastern front scenario in order to round out the German s/e planeset. Just add the planes that were present at Normandy and Bodenplatte already, but were not included...109G6/AS, G14/AS, 109G-10 along with FW190A-9 and F-9. There are a ton of planes left that could be done, both early and late war, both Allied and Axis - with the maps we already have...early P-38s and P-47s as well are much needed. Also the British Meteor...

 

Yes, they could add the Bf-109 G-10, AS, and FW-190A-9 without doing an Eastern European battle - but the axis needs something to fly in an '45 East module - hence these last variants need to be saved for release with it. At least that is the general opinion.

 

1 hour ago, Noisemaker said:

I've been to Hungary, it's not as interesting a landscape as Italy.

Italy also offers us a wide variety of new and interesting aircraft...

Don't forget the new cloud effects!

Vesuvius 1944!

 

I'm not picking a fight with the Hungarians 😄 I will say that 1944 Italy allows for more Axis fighters (i.e. Italian fighters)... but I'd save it for release alongside "Flying Circus V: Isonzo & the Adriatic"

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1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

Late war Eastern as a flight sim would not interest me.  But Barbarossa 41 might. 

This. 

 Odessa map. I-153, i-16, DB-3F, TB-3,  BF-109E3/4, IAR-80/81, Machi c200,  He-112.

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10 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

This franchise barely survived the early war east front modules that they’ve already done. Another early war east front module will kill it.

That had nothing to do with the plane set. There were other decisions back then that chased away a lot of players.

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[F.Circus]FrangibleCover
9 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

However from a historical and tactical point of view Hungary should offer a better background. 

 

 

What do you think?

I did a lot of looking at Hungary and couldn't quite make it stick together. It's a cool map, a fun campaign and includes some wonderful Weirds like the Me 210C (the one that wasn't trying to kill you) and the Czechoslovak Fighter Aviation Regiment sent to support the Slovak Uprising with La-5FNs, but neither Yak-9U nor La-7 actually turned up (okay there were a few La-7s right at the end), you get no Tu-2s and I couldn't conclusively evidence Fw 190A-9s either. The introduction of the Bf 109G-10 is about halfway through the time period of the module so for it to be playable without any other modules you have to have another Bf 109G-6 variant, which I'm not sure people will go for.  The RHuAF is interesting but it can only come up with one unique aircraft that's not a trainer. Sadly I think Hungary is just a square peg.

 

4 hours ago, l_commando said:

Speaking as a primarily offline player, the only late war scenarios that remained static enough to include a some what lengthy career mode are:

  • Leningrad/Karelia: October 1943 (?) - September 1944
  • Crimea/Odessa: October 1943 - May 1944
  • Courland/East Prussia - August 1944 - May 1945
  • Budapest/Lake Balaton: October 1944 - March 1945
  • Oder-Berlin: January - May 1945

First and Second Jassy-Kishinev with the operational pause between them? That's April - August 1944, which is workable for a module.

 

3 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

They will add a healthy portion of what is now poland to it. I guess Vistula-Oder Operation will be the core. Those last 2 weeks from 16th april at Seelow Heights until capitulation of Berlin at 2nd May will deliver the title for the module.

 

On a front nearly 1,000 miles wide, over 2.2 million Soviet soldiers, 6,400 tanks and assault guns, and 5,000 aircraft attacked westward into Poland in one of history's largest battles.

Vistula-Oder is far, far too big for a module. You need to have sufficient depth in your map to have airbases miles behind the start line of an offensive for the attackers at the start and to have airbases miles behind the end line of an offensive for the defenders at the end. V-O was so insanely quick that if you start the map at Warsaw and make it the largest one that Il-2 has had yet, you'll still run off the far end in about ten days. Better to do the last few days of V-O (apparently something of a Happy Time for the remainder of the Luftwaffe because the RKKA had outrun the VVS and had very limited air cover), the stop on the Oder, a bit of the battle for Stettin perhaps and then the final offensive, the fall of Berlin and the surrender of Nazi Germany. That's about two months, but it's iconic and you get every aircraft going.

 

2 hours ago, Noisemaker said:

I've been to Hungary, it's not as interesting a landscape as Italy.

The Hungary map would be pretty decent I think, a good part of the Carpathian basin with large mountains, cities, lakes, plains, little runways tucked into valleys, oil wells... It doesn't have the mountainous centrepiece that an Italian module will inevitably have, but it's got its attractions. Besides, people whine about Stalingrad Summer being monotonous brown, they should see Italy. The map really isn't the issue.

Edited by [F.Circus]FrangibleCover
remembered about Tu-2s, or their absence
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38 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

That had nothing to do with the plane set. There were other decisions back then that chased away a lot of players.


Yeah, I’m sure it was a totally random decision to go with late war super planes to try to save the franchise.

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