Low Level Turbulence

[HubriStick]

Hello all, first post so be gentle.

 

I'm new to the whole PC/flight sim world so I'm watching a lot of WW2 gaming videos.  I'm told that IL2 is the most realistic of the bunch but I notice that in all IL2 videos pilots are able to fly down at tree top level in sunny and breezy summer conditions yet their aircraft remain stable gun platforms.  Real world and low level the airplane would be being disturbed several degrees in pitch and even yaw every few seconds with a material effect on one's cunning plan to snipe the enemy.  

 

Are there settings in IL2 or other games that would more faithfully represent this difficulty?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

You need to turn on air turbulence during mission selection. 

 

[JG27*PapaFly]

8 hours ago, HubriStick said:

Hello all, first post so be gentle.

 

I'm new to the whole PC/flight sim world so I'm watching a lot of WW2 gaming videos.  I'm told that IL2 is the most realistic of the bunch but I notice that in all IL2 videos pilots are able to fly down at tree top level in sunny and breezy summer conditions yet their aircraft remain stable gun platforms.  Real world and low level the airplane would be being disturbed several degrees in pitch and even yaw every few seconds with a material effect on one's cunning plan to snipe the enemy.  

 

Are there settings in IL2 or other games that would more faithfully represent this difficulty?

Welcome to the forum HubriStick,

I am a glider pilot in real life and can assure you that turbulence is not always such a big factor. It very much depends on the weather conditions. In stable conditions, even a glider will fly like on rails. If turbulence is present, however, its influence on a plane's flight path depends mostly on the plane's wing loading and speed. Fast planes with high wing loading will experience less interference, and are therefore an excellent choice for strafing IRL.

 

You can switch on turbulence in-game, but the effect is unrealistic.

Edited October 26, 2021 by JG27_PapaFly

[Strewth]

Hey mate and welcome.

At least in regards to the wind speed and direction, I can tell you I notice a difference on take-off and landing if it is a cross wind. I also notice is shooting ground targets in a cross wind, the attack angle and aim must be compensated for drift.
As for actual "turbulence", it does not appear to be overly noticeable.

But the general flight dynamics appear to be a lot more realistic and unforgiving than anything else on the market at the moment, so enjoy.

P.S. You even get surprises, like lowering the flaps on approach in a Spit to find one has been shot out. That makes for a bit of fun in staying stable while trying to quickly raise remaining flap, then in for a hot landing.

I hope you enjoy it.

Cheers.

[ShamrockOneFive]

IL-2's turbulence is pretty good but it's not dynamic like the next gen stuff in Microsoft Flight Simulator where wind is simulated over geometry and up and down drafts in mountains and cities are part of the flight sim calculation. MSFS also doesn't do damage modeling so they can afford to spend some CPU cycles.

 

Still, if you're low, fast and flying in a particularly turbulent spot it will definitely affect your aim.

Edited October 26, 2021 by ShamrockOneFive

[PatrickAWlson]

13 hours ago, HubriStick said:

Hello all, first post so be gentle.

 

I'm new to the whole PC/flight sim world so I'm watching a lot of WW2 gaming videos.  I'm told that IL2 is the most realistic of the bunch but I notice that in all IL2 videos pilots are able to fly down at tree top level in sunny and breezy summer conditions yet their aircraft remain stable gun platforms.  Real world and low level the airplane would be being disturbed several degrees in pitch and even yaw every few seconds with a material effect on one's cunning plan to snipe the enemy.  

 

Are there settings in IL2 or other games that would more faithfully represent this difficulty?

 

I believe that @1PL-Husar-1Esk gave the basic answer in the first post.  There is a turbulence setting that I believe can be varied in different altitude bands.  Never played with this in QMB so I don't know if it is configurable from there, but it definitely is in the mission editor.  The value is a floating point number that specifies  the level of turbulence.  Default is zero.  Not sure what the max value is.

 

[busdriver]

15 hours ago, HubriStick said:

Real world and low level the airplane would be being disturbed several degrees in pitch and even yaw every few seconds with a material effect on one's cunning plan to snipe the enemy.

 

Way back in the Jurassic Era whilst still instructing in the RF-4 flying low and pretty fast around Texas, instructor WSOs were telling me that I wouldn't enjoy flying the F-16 at low altitude because it wasn't as stable as the Phantom. When I asked them why the F-16 performed so well in scorching heat Red Flags they had no response. Suffice to say I loved flying the F-16 low and fast. 

[Diggun]

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

I loved flying the F-16 low and fast. 

The 'wisdom' of the phantom drivers aside, surely you'd have to be some kind of monster to not enjoy this? 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Heard Stories about those crazy RF-4s cutting Power Lines and losing Rudders that Way while fully not-inverted. 

 

Anyways, the ingame Planes are at least 3 tons moving at half the Speed of Sound. 

 

To feel the Effects of Light Wind Turbulence of Ground Objects like Trees or Hangars you have to be slow, 150km/h or less and be in a really light Plane with comparatively large Surfaces, and then you still have to be also very close to these Objects, 100m or so. 

 

You can definetly model this, but it simply isn't a widespread enough phenomenon ingame to justify putting a lot of time and money into the development of such a feature that would have negligible Effect on anything except the WWI Kites. 

And those already have random Turbulence acting on them all the time so you wouldn't even notice. 

 

If you want to create an MP Mission, you will soon be able to program dynamic Weather and Wind Layers to reflect low Altitude Turbulence. 

 

Yes the Idea is good, but at this point not a priority.

 

Next year MSFS will get a proper Thermal and Gliding Model hopefully, and then it's Competition Time.

Edited October 26, 2021 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[busdriver]

1 hour ago, Diggun said:

The 'wisdom' of the phantom drivers aside, surely you'd have to be some kind of monster to not enjoy this? 

Aye laddie. ?

[ZachariasX]

18 hours ago, HubriStick said:

Real world and low level the airplane would be being disturbed several degrees in pitch and even yaw every few seconds with a material effect on one's cunning plan to snipe the enemy.  

That doesn‘t really depend on altitude, although you have more terrain induced turbulence down there. But this is minor to turbulence at altitude over mountains in case of strong winds.

 

Turbulences in sims are often overmodelled (especially in FSX) as they are more felt than seen, hence exaggerations of the effect are often popular.  But a WW2 bird (and youin them) feels these turbulences absolutely equal as you feel them in a common Cessna. Just the faster you go the rougher it feels. Same as driving a rough road slower or faster.

 

If you think the effect in the sim is a tad too little, then it is probably set right.

 

It is of note that planes of netral stability are more tiring to fly in bumpy weather as any „bump“ will make the nose point slightly off course, and the aircraft wants then to go that way and you have to correct for that. You need to keep them on a short leash, while stable aircraft like a Cessna will just plow on straight without much help. There is a fine line between controlling and over controlling. Seems that applies to F-16‘s as well @busdriver?

Edited October 26, 2021 by ZachariasX

[busdriver]

30 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

It is of note that planes of netral stability are more tiring to fly in bumpy weather as any „bump“ will make the nose point slightly off course, and the aircraft wants then to go that way and you have to correct for that. You need to keep them on a short leash, while stable aircraft like a Cessna will just plow on straight without much help. There is a fine line between controlling and over controlling. Seems that applies to F-16‘s as well @busdriver?

 

Actually the point I implied (albeit unsuccessfully) was that the F-16 was a piece of cake to fly low and fast on hot bumpy days. The Flight Control System (FLCS pronounced "flick-iss" in Viper speak) magically made the ride just as stable as the Phantom. As an aside, if you have ever watched an F-16 taxiing and noticed the horizontal stabilizers randomly moving up and down asymmetrically just a tiny bit, this is an example of the FLCS trying to dampen the bumps in the taxiway.

 

Apologies to @HubriStick for taking his thread off on a tangent. Welcome to the Forums! 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by busdriver

[AndyJWest]

31 minutes ago, busdriver said:

...if you have ever watched an F-16 taxiing and noticed the horizontal stabilizers randomly moving up and down asymmetrically just a tiny bit, this is an example of the FLCS trying to dampen the bumps in the taxiway.

 

I'm disappointed to learn that. I always assumed it was the FLCS wagging its tail in excitement because it was going out to play again. ?

[busdriver]

11 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

I'm disappointed to learn that. I always assumed it was the FLCS wagging its tail in excitement because it was going out to play again. 

 

Well played my good sir. 

[Gambit21]

I notice a lot of low-level turbulence if I eat too much salad/too quickly  - it's bad.

[Bremspropeller]

101% of my crashes are attributed to severe low-level turbulence and *achoos*.

[76IAP-Black]

What about making the low level turbulence a bit more realistic with some rattling noises inside the cockpit.
I have experienced rattling noises during flights with small airplanes, even in bigger airliners, the seats are rattling, making noises all around.

It will make the incockpit experience more lifelike in il2. Right now it sounds like a brand new car, everything is tight and perfect.

Should i open a new topic for this before it get lost here?

[Guest deleted@50488]

There is turbulence in IL-2, that as other have pointed out can be enabled in the mission screen, and I do find it better overall than for instance in DCS World.

 

I get the idea it used to be more intense in the past. Probably they tamed it to allow for begginers to better cope with it ( ? )

 

This turbulence though is not related to convection, orography or other phenomena that can induce it IRL.

 

In a somehow related topic, I don't think IL2 models wake turbulence ?

 

Future fine tuning of the sim could probably account for these variants too :-)

[Bremspropeller]

43 minutes ago, 76IAP-Black said:

What about making the low level turbulence a bit more realistic with some rattling noises inside the cockpit.
I have experienced rattling noises during flights with small airplanes, even in bigger airliners, the seats are rattling, making noises all around.

 

There are no rattling noises in a 1000hp+ airplane, wearing ear-protection.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[76IAP-Black]

32 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

There are no rattling noises in a 1000hp+ airplane, wearing ear-protection.

than we should level down the engine noise too 
Similar to the audio option in DCS 

I want rattling noise in the cabine and cockpit 

[PB0_Roll]

17 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

I believe that @1PL-Husar-1Esk gave the basic answer in the first post.  There is a turbulence setting that I believe can be varied in different altitude bands.  Never played with this in QMB so I don't know if it is configurable from there, but it definitely is in the mission editor.  The value is a floating point number that specifies  the level of turbulence.  Default is zero.  Not sure what the max value is.

 

I noticed, using your PWCG for coop, that there is plenty of turbulence in your missions tho, even a bit too much for my taste (and I'm a huge fan of low level turb in sims).

 

Turbulence IRL , in my experience, is related to either a strong wind (at very low level if flat terrain, or a slightly higher level if non flat, or even higher if hilly/montainous), or to thermal turbulence (late morning in summer, midday/afternoon in spring/autumn, rare in winter), or to a weather front, but then there is  related cloud activity.

 

When I meet strong turbulence in a cloudless sky, during a windless autumn morning, as it happens in some missions, I raise an eyebrow.

[Bremspropeller]

40 minutes ago, 76IAP-Black said:

I want rattling noise in the cabine and cockpit

 

Why? It's not realistic at all.

[Diggun]

4 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Why? It's not realistic at all.

It happened in Dunkirk, so it must be realistic...

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

There are no rattling noises in a 1000hp+ airplane, wearing ear-protection.

I always have tons of rattling in MP.

 

45 minutes ago, Diggun said:

It happened in Dunkirk, so it must be realistic...

What happens in Dunkirk stays in Dunkirk.

[unreasonable]

Just now, Diggun said:

It happened in Dunkirk, so it must be realistic...

 

That was the music sound track.

[PatrickAWlson]

2 hours ago, PB0_Roll said:

I noticed, using your PWCG for coop, that there is plenty of turbulence in your missions tho, even a bit too much for my taste (and I'm a huge fan of low level turb in sims).

 

Turbulence IRL , in my experience, is related to either a strong wind (at very low level if flat terrain, or a slightly higher level if non flat, or even higher if hilly/montainous), or to thermal turbulence (late morning in summer, midday/afternoon in spring/autumn, rare in winter), or to a weather front, but then there is  related cloud activity.

 

When I meet strong turbulence in a cloudless sky, during a windless autumn morning, as it happens in some missions, I raise an eyebrow.

 

It's a data point of 1, but the most turbulent flight that I have ever been on was on a clear blue, cloudless day.  Short flight, Boston to NY.  Probably never got much above 20K feet.  They strapped the cabin crew in for the entire flight.  We bounced all the way at all altitudes.  So honestly not sure of all of the factors that go into turbulence.

 

In PWCG I do have more turbulence on bad weather days.  It is not a calculation done independently of other factors.  This goes back to RoF, but I tone turbulence down a bit near the ground because humans and AI alike were having trouble landing.  That part is not realistic but a concession to what was the reality of the moment.  Might be different now.

[PB0_Roll]

42 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

 the most turbulent flight that I have ever been on was on a clear blue, cloudless day.  Short flight, Boston to NY.  Probably never got much above 20K feet.  They strapped the cabin crew in for the entire flight.  We bounced all the way at all altitudes.  So honestly not sure of all of the factors that go into turbulence.

 

 

Well if I'd have to bet I'd bet on a jet, this area is notoriously windy at cruise altitude.

[HubriStick]

The Spitfire in Dunkirk would have been one of the quitest airplanes in history.  If you have a quick look at the scene where it is burning on the beach you will see that it has no engine.........

[Bremspropeller]

It doesn't need an engine, as it effortlessly glides forever without one. The fire's gotta be fuelled by that same free energy source, as it certainly can't be fed by the fuel.

[BluesmanSF]

5 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Why? It's not realistic at all.

I think some rattling would be appropriate considering the materials these machines were made of. In fact most of the older Cessnas and such have quite a rattle during flight, especially during take-off, landing roll or turbulence. In fact most modern jets have at least some rattle and random noise during bumps and such.

 

just my opinion.

[Diggun]

This thread title was touching something in my lizard brain. Then I remembered it was reminding me of the Clear Air Turbulence, a spaceship in Ian M Banks' first Culture novel, Consider Phlebas.

 

A brirf googling later, and I discover that the CAT itsself seems to have been named for the title track of this jazz/rock album. 

 

 

Drugs in the 70's must have been GOOD.

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, BluesmanSF said:

I think some rattling would be appropriate considering the materials these machines were made of. In fact most of the older Cessnas and such have quite a rattle during flight, especially during take-off, landing roll or turbulence. In fact most modern jets have at least some rattle and random noise during bumps and such.

 

Tell me, where the rattling is. Make sure your speakers are turned up.

 

I have flown in this exact aircraft. There's no rattling.

And we never even reached nominal take-off power.

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[BluesmanSF]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Tell me, where the rattling is. Make sure your speakers are turned up.

 

I have flown in this exact aircraft. There's no rattling.

And we never even reached nominal take-off power.

 

I am happy you’ve gotten the chance to fly a Mustang! I didn’t notice much rattling or such coming from the airframe, I am not sure whether the air was smooth or the engine so loud, so you are absolutely right. I am saying that during my time in Cessnas and some 3000 hours in an Airbus there sure is some rattle and random noise coming from the airframe, cockpit equipment, landing gear etc. Most notably during high speeds on a runway, and usually during flight at low levels, in the effect of mechanical turbulence.

 

This must also be one of the most …peculiar things I’ve discussed in aviation =D.