The only enemy plane in the game?

[Knarley-Bob]

Trying to fly a 110 on a new career mission(s) and have the whole of the enemies planes chase ONE of the 110's. (Mine of course) The whole rest of the flight flies on unmolested to bomb the smithereens out of the either convoy or artillery pieces. On line, career mode. Last mission I flew on the deck, way off to the left of "My formation" just to have two flights of Russian planes single my plane out. What gives?

Battle of Moscow first few missions career.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The AI will focus on a human flown aircraft every time, and they will chase you through the gates of hell to get you.  It's one of the reasons that I rarely fly single player.

[BraveSirRobin]

13 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The AI will focus on a human flown aircraft every time, and they will chase you through the gates of hell to get you.  It's one of the reasons that I rarely fly single player.

That was supposedly changed several years ago.

[Knarley-Bob]

44 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The AI will focus on a human flown aircraft every time, and they will chase you through the gates of hell to get you.  It's one of the reasons that I rarely fly single player.

I didn't think I was THAT great of aviator, that the whole Luftwaffe was out to get me......

As far as single player, I have no option, my internet here is way too slow. Lucky for the on line guys huh??

[BladeMeister]

Download Pat Wilson's Campaign Generator and learn how to use that. It is some of the best Single Player content available in TGBS.

 

S!Blade<><

[ST_Catchov]

1 hour ago, Knarley-Bob said:

I didn't think I was THAT great of aviator, that the whole Luftwaffe was out to get me...

 

Oh I think you are man. Particularly since you made that remark about Goering's weight and the disproportionate size of his manhood. Unfortunately picked up by German radio. The entire Luftwaffe has now been ordered to get that Knarley-Bob guy.

 

Or in German "Holen Sie sich diesen Knarley Bob Guy! Das ist eine Bestellung. Verleugne mich nicht oder sonst ich werde deine Bälle haben! Hermann."

[Knarley-Bob]

12 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

Oh I think you are man. Particularly since you made that remark about Goering's weight and the disproportionate size of his manhood. Unfortunately picked up by German radio. The entire Luftwaffe has now been ordered to get that Knarley-Bob guy.

 

Or in German "Holen Sie sich diesen Knarley Bob Guy! Das ist eine Bestellung. Verleugne mich nicht oder sonst ich werde deine Bälle haben! Hermann."

Well, he WAS a lot thinner in WW1, and as I remember, it was REALLY cold that day at the beach.........

[AEthelraedUnraed]

On 7/31/2021 at 10:50 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

The AI will focus on a human flown aircraft every time, and they will chase you through the gates of hell to get you.  It's one of the reasons that I rarely fly single player.

Sorry, but that's just bollocks. The AI doesn't focus any more on human planes than on other AI, considering everything else is equal. If you fly very agressively, they may come for you more often since you're more likely to be the closest aircraft to your opponent, but they certainly don't focus more on you because you are human. That is also my personal experience; I flew a huge ~12 vs 12 AI dogfight yesterday, and even though I was able to get 3 kills myself (4 maybe? Can't remember exactly), there never was any German on my tail. Let alone remotely close to firing on me. For all I know, I could have been invisible.

 

On 7/31/2021 at 10:22 PM, Knarley-Bob said:

The whole rest of the flight flies on unmolested to bomb the smithereens out of the either convoy or artillery pieces. [...] I flew on the deck, way off to the left of "My formation" just to have two flights of Russian planes single my plane out.

Behaving differently from your wingmen can actually make it much more likely the AI singles you out. One of the metrics the AI uses to determine which target to attack, is how close it is. If you're flying someplace else, it's much more likely that at some point you will be the closest plane to all AI. This doesn't necessarily have to be at the beginning of the fight; if you keep dogfighting while your wingmen fly on, it's likely you will at some point be the closest one and they will gang up on you.

 

If you don't want the AI to single you out, do what the others do. If they stay in formation and continue heading for the target, stay in formation as well. If they dogfight, dogfight. If they return home, make a run for it too. Any deviant behaviour will make you liable to be ganged up on.

 

It's not completely ahistorical either. If you're flying with 4 planes and you meet a formation of 4 with one trailing way back, do you attack the planes in formation or do you gang up on the lone wolf? Exactly - the latter option is way safer and with a bit of luck you can score a kill before the remaining aircraft are able to come and help the poor bugger.

Edited August 2, 2021 by AEthelraedUnraed

[BlitzPig_EL]

All I can say is, you is wrong.  My experience is that the AI will totally ignore non player aircraft and single out the player, every time.

[Alexmarine]

Idk tbh, in bomber careers when you fly in formation with the other bombers (and in Stuka career too) the AI doesn't seem to focus on you that much if not being totally driven away by your fighter escort in some cases

[Ghost666]

8 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Sorry, but that's just bollocks. The AI doesn't focus any more on human planes than on other AI, considering everything else is equal. If you fly very agressively, they may come for you more often since you're more likely to be the closest aircraft to your opponent, but they certainly don't focus more on you because you are human. That is also my personal experience; I flew a huge ~12 vs 12 AI dogfight yesterday, and even though I was able to get 3 kills myself (4 maybe? Can't remember exactly), there never was any German on my tail. Let alone remotely close to firing on me. For all I know, I could have been invisible.

 

Behaving differently from your wingmen can actually make it much more likely the AI singles you out. One of the metrics the AI uses to determine which target to attack, is how close it is. If you're flying someplace else, it's much more likely that at some point you will be the closest plane to all AI. This doesn't necessarily have to be at the beginning of the fight; if you keep dogfighting while your wingmen fly on, it's likely you will at some point be the closest one and they will gang up on you.

 

If you don't want the AI to single you out, do what the others do. If they stay in formation and continue heading for the target, stay in formation as well. If they dogfight, dogfight. If they return home, make a run for it too. Any deviant behaviour will make you liable to be ganged up on.

 

It's not completely ahistorical either. If you're flying with 4 planes and you meet a formation of 4 with one trailing way back, do you attack the planes in formation or do you gang up on the lone wolf? Exactly - the latter option is way safer and with a bit of luck you can score a kill before the remaining aircraft are able to come and help the poor bugger.

I have to agree here. I fly only SP and find this to be the case with very few exceptions.

[PatrickAWlson]

5 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

All I can say is, you is wrong.  My experience is that the AI will totally ignore non player aircraft and single out the player, every time.

 

There is no "get the player" code in the AI.  It's the way that you fly.   The AI will pick whatever it sees as the best target.  The AI tends to be somewhat indecisive in starting the engagement.  If you are more decisive than your AI flight mates then the enemy AI will see you as the main threat and target you.

 

One thing the AI will do is get fixated.  If you present as the best target and the whole enemy flight makes that decision, they are probably sticking with it.

 

I have had very different results by not being the first one in.  Be patient and let your flight engage, then go in.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

I thought like that too a while ago. 

 

Then I decided to stick with my flight and guess what, enemies also target AI fighters now. 

 

If you leave your flight to engage 4x enemy fighters on your own, expect to have 3x enemy fighters on your ass soon enough.

 

The AI leaves much to be desired but only targeting the player no matter the circumstances is not an issue imo. You will get ganked sometimes, AI too.

[Knarley-Bob]

The 'Bandits' were coming from the NW. My flight, was at about the same altitude as them, and I was on the deck, 190 ft. way to the east of my flight. All six Bandits made a bee line for me right past/thru the formation......

Have been in a furball, was out of ammo, dropped to the deck to head home, just to have the remaining three bandits dis engage, and chase me all the way home. I got one of them, but I didn't make it home either.....

One has to figure that the computer knows where you are at all times. Ducking into the clouds, flying thru smoke, or on the deck zig zagging thru the trees seems to do no good. They are like blood hounds on the scent. I know that IJAFG (It's Just A Flippin" Game) and it seems WHAT EVER I'm flying will not out run the bad guys. It has gotten to the point on some flights, all one can do is get back across the front line and belly land so one doesn't get killed or captured. 

Waiting for your squadron to react, after they have already been jumped doesn't seem too prudent. I have a hard time watching the Bandits circle around and get in position, seems like a good way to get shot to pieces...

I wish this thread wasn't in the "Complaints" area, as I was just making an observation, and hoping to find what is the best way to deal with it.

It is what it is like I said, IJAFG....

KB

Edited August 2, 2021 by Knarley-Bob

[AEthelraedUnraed]

19 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

All I can say is, you is wrong.  My experience is that the AI will totally ignore non player aircraft and single out the player, every time.

Well, the human species is notoriously bad as an objective observer.

 

9 hours ago, Knarley-Bob said:

The 'Bandits' were coming from the NW. My flight, was at about the same altitude as them, and I was on the deck, 190 ft. way to the east of my flight. All six Bandits made a bee line for me right past/thru the formation......

As I said above, being far away from the rest of your flight does make you a very juicy target.

 

Apart from that, the only thing I can imagine is that the Attack Target MCU is target-linked to the player instead of the formation leader. Not sure what would happen then, but perhaps someone more knowlegdgeable than I (@PatrickAWlson) can provide some answers here? I think the target object should resolve to the entire formation regardless, but perhaps it doesn't?

 

9 hours ago, Knarley-Bob said:

One has to figure that the computer knows where you are at all times. Ducking into the clouds, flying thru smoke, or on the deck zig zagging thru the trees seems to do no good.

The AI doesn't, at least not more than is the case for every aircraft. Smoke indeed doesn't have any effect, but clouds should obscure you. Except that most clouds are not heavy enough to do so. If you're able to track an enemy aircraft through the clouds, expect the AI to do the same.

[PatrickAWlson]

@AEthelraedUnraed I don't know about career.  I only use attack area for ground attacks in PWCG.  For air I use an attack MCU and tell planes on a fighter mission to attack everything in the air that's on the other side.  There is no range or distance associated with it.

 

The decision of what to attack, especially in the air, is more AI than mission design.  So yes, if a player is low and alone then the AI might think he is a better target.  I know that I would.

[PatrickAWlson]

People need to understand something about the feeling that the AI is out to get them.  If this was actually in the code, it would have to be by intent.  It would require more effort than "attack the best target".   It would actually subvert logic to attack the best target.  It's not happening folks.

 

I think that I know what the real issue is: target fixation.  I saw it in a fight a couple of days ago.   The AI was tangling with another AI aircraft.  I joined the fight and the enemy AI never broke off his engagement with the friendly AI that I was coming to help.  He did not react to me.  This is what you are seeing.  The difference is that you are the one the enemy AI is fixated on.

 

I hang back and do not charge in.  I rarely feel that the AI is targeting me because usually they are not.  It's all about those first few seconds where the AI makes decisions.  If you can convince the AI that you are not the best target early on, then you won't be the preferred target for the whole fight.

[Thad]

On 7/31/2021 at 5:38 PM, Knarley-Bob said:

I didn't think I was THAT great of aviator, that the whole Luftwaffe was out to get me......

As far as single player, I have no option, my internet here is way too slow. Lucky for the on line guys huh??

 

You probably aren't but out of spite.... I forward a picture of you to Luftwaffe High Command and told them you threatened to bomb Hitler to hell. That may be why they are after you so much. 

[Gambit21]

As Pat said, there is no “get the player” code present. Now there used to be, even as of maybe 5-6 years ago. I know because I made a demo mission and sent it to Han, and they fixed the problem immediately.

 

Since then I have not seen this problem manifest with the hard-coded AI behavior. 

 

That said, the career logic hasn’t always been the best editor work, and the “Attack” command is/was sometimes attached directly to the player aircraft. I haven’t looked at a generated career mission in a few years, but my understanding is that this issue has been fixed in most careers. To be clear, it’s quite easy with the editor logic to make sure that the AI does, or does not focus on the player. 

 

I’ve always used logic that mostly prevents this, (easy to do) but I have witnessed freak occurrences where 6 enemy aircraft follow a player into a dive. Not often, (next to never) and not reproducible on a second test. Last time was maybe 18 months ago or longer during Hell Hawks testing. 

 

Anyway the salient point is, there’s no “AI problem” - only mission logic problems where this particular problem is concerned.

 

 

[Knarley-Bob]

I'm thinking that I'll just have to be more sneaky.??

 

[PatrickAWlson]

23 hours ago, Knarley-Bob said:

I'm thinking that I'll just have to be more sneaky.??

 

 

I worked for a man who flew fighters for the Navy.  He told me once that the preferred technique for evading heat seeking missiles was to tell your wingman to go full afterburner.  This is kind of like that ... go get em boys, I'm right behind you.

[Knarley-Bob]

Do what you want to my wingmen, but leave me alone!!

 

 

By the way, flew a mission, on line "Career "mode last night.

Was flying an I-16 type 21. Made a good bomb run (actually hit something) knocked down a 109, and headed home. Got 1/2 back to base on my side of the front, all by myself on that little map screen in the corner. I was the ONLY plane on that map, the small one. All of a sudden 3 bogeys appear on my six. I peddled as fast as I could, but to make a long and sad story short, never made it home. No, they don't hunt you down.......no.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Knarley-Bob

[ST_Catchov]

1 hour ago, Knarley-Bob said:

I peddled as fast as I could

 

There's your problem right there. Don't use the pedals like a pushbike. It will cause too much adverse yaw and slow you down. 

[BraveSirRobin]

Even when the AI was targeting the human player, I never saw it.  I always waited for my AI wingmen to go full afterburner and then I went after whatever took the bait.  And now that they fixed the human target problem it’s probably even easier to do that.  Just be patient.