Bombs not exploding?

[Scent]

Hi all!

I was playing with the P-38 and i decided to go as a tank hunter, but i had an issue, my bombs did not explode, only one of 6, and that problem is not exclusive of the p-38, in the same match i used the P-47 and happend the same, i don´t know if i need to drop the bombs at certain speed and angle or something, so if someone can tell me how to do it right, you are welcome.

[Dragon1-1]

Either use a delay fuse or fly higher. Otherwise, there's no enough time for the bomb to arm.

[Guest deleted@134347]

in the plane load-out screen set the Bomb Timer to 5 seconds. It fits pretty much all of the use cases, except the moving targets (tanks).

[busdriver]

@Dragon1-1 gives the correct game solution. IRL the simple solution would be to release at a higher altitude regardless of the timer delay. I’ve tried to explain this to the Devs for several years. IRL if the bomb doesn’t have sufficient time of fall (TOF) to permit the mechanical fuse to arm (the arming vanes have to spin X number of revolutions), then no amount of delay will cause the weapon to detonate. Mechanically speaking fuse arming and delay fuse function are distinct.
 

The practical benefit to @Scent is that as an Allied pilot cannot “frag mort” himself, that is to damage or kill his airplane with his own bombs. A German jabo pilot can kill himself if he drops his bombs (which use electrical fuses) when too low or too slow with insufficient delay.

 

 

[RedKestrel]

8 minutes ago, busdriver said:

@Dragon1-1 gives the correct game solution. IRL the simple solution would be to release at a higher altitude regardless of the timer delay. I’ve tried to explain this to the Devs for several years. IRL if the bomb doesn’t have sufficient time of fall (TOF) to permit the mechanical fuse to arm (the arming vanes have to spin X number of revolutions), then no amount of delay will cause the weapon to detonate. Mechanically speaking fuse arming and delay fuse function are distinct.
 

The practical benefit to @Scent is that as an Allied pilot cannot “frag mort” himself, that is to damage or kill his airplane with his own bombs. A German jabo pilot can kill himself if he drops his bombs (which use electrical fuses) when too low or too slow with insufficient delay.

 

 

Historically, were there different mechanical fuses with different TOF requirements used based on the attack profile? 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

I use a 3 seconds fuse delay on FAB-100 and FAB-250. I often get 'duds'. 

 

Is it because I am dropping em too close to the ground or is it a known reliability with the FAB bombs that is modelled? I get very few duds with german SC bombs.

[Dragon1-1]

Set it to 5 seconds and you'll be fine.

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

IRL the simple solution would be to release at a higher altitude regardless of the timer delay.

Not necessarily. If you're dropping bombs with a long timer, then usually the whole point is to drop them from low altitude. Therefore, we can assume 5s+ gives us a different type of fuze, suited for low level drops. That's, presumably, why the devs didn't care much for your explanations. Allied aircraft such as the Mosquito did do that kind of delivery, so it's not exactly unrealistic, and obviously there had to be fuzes that would accommodate this technique.

[busdriver]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Set it to 5 seconds and you'll be fine.

Not necessarily. If you're dropping bombs with a long timer, then usually the whole point is to drop them from low altitude. Therefore, we can assume 5s+ gives us a different type of fuze, suited for low level drops. That's, presumably, why the devs didn't care much for your explanations. Allied aircraft such as the Mosquito did do that kind of delivery, so it's not exactly unrealistic, and obviously there had to be fuzes that would accommodate this technique.

 

Your misunderstanding is pretty common among 1GCCFPs. I actually have some RL experience dropping bombs with mechanical fuses. You are absolutely correct that Mosquitos dropped from very low altitude with delayed fusing, in fact 11 seconds was a common RAF delay setting. But you're missing the point. If a mechanical fused bomb had sufficient TOF to permit 11 seconds of delay fusing then it had enough TOF to allow that fuse to count to 1 second and detonate. The fuse must arm before a timer starts.

 

I posted these in the Tester forum a while back. The first represents the frag pattern of a US 500 and 2000 pound general purpose bombs and addresses the reason the RAF would use an 11 second delay when dropping from 100 feet. Assume the Mosquito is flying somewhere between 240 mph (352 fps) and 300 mph (440 fps). You can drop low, but you need to be able to escape the frag pattern. 

 

 

These two are from an academic text used when I went through RTU for the F-16 in 1986. 

 

 

 

And here are a couple of WWII USAAF screenshots about GP bombs and fuses.

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Historically, were there different mechanical fuses with different TOF requirements used based on the attack profile? 

 

Oops...see the charts above.

 

[Guest deleted@134347]

@busdriver, the question is if the mechanical fuses are actually modeled in the game. If they are not and it's a simple timer regardless of the fuse type then there's really no point discussing this down to the details you bring. Just set the timer to 5 seconds and be done with it.

 

You can still perform realistic bombing engagements with these arcade timers. Just set it to 'contact' or 1 second and drop them from the appropriate heights.

[busdriver]

13 minutes ago, 30speed said:

@busdriver, the question is if the mechanical fuses are actually modeled in the game. If they are not and it's a simple timer regardless of the fuse type then there's really no point discussing this down to the details you bring. Just set the timer to 5 seconds and be done with it.

 

You can still perform realistic bombing engagements with these arcade timers. Just set it to 'contact' or 1 second and drop them from the appropriate heights.

 

Perhaps. I prefer to play on the Allied side, I recognize this is an advantage, and simply select 5 seconds delay. I'll gladly take any advantage the Devs want to give me.

 

But if you fly German jabo missions where IN FACT the game models electrical fuses allowing the player to "frag mort" himself if he drops too low, then perhaps you'd be pissed to find out the Allies have a convenient safety factor advantage. If the Devs want to level the playing field, make the risk the same. But I do recognize that folks shrug their shoulders and think, "it doesn't matter." 

 

I'm not going to fall on my sword over this, the game is full of compromises. It is what it is.

[Guest deleted@134347]

23 minutes ago, busdriver said:

But if you fly German jabo missions where IN FACT the game models electrical fuses allowing the player to "frag mort" himself if he drops too low

 

I love to bomb in FW190 A8. Historically, the MV position on the bomb control cluster with Delay is set to a 0.08 seconds vs OV position without the delay. The 0.08 delay MV setting was for the purpose of  penetrating the target (bunkers?) first and explosion second. There are no other settings in the cockpit to add any additional delay, and I've read that the 13-14s delay was a field modification where the service mechanics could set it before mounting it on the aircraft. IL2 doesn't model any of it, i.e. the same multi-second timer you enjoy on the Allied side is available for the Axis on A8 and other aircraft.

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by 30speed

[Dragon1-1]

2 hours ago, busdriver said:

But you're missing the point. If a mechanical fused bomb had sufficient TOF to permit 11 seconds of delay fusing then it had enough TOF to allow that fuse to count to 1 second and detonate. The fuse must arm before a timer starts.

You're the one missing the point. Low altitude bombing uses a different kind of fuze. I know very well how a normal mechanical fuze works, but do you really thing the same devices would be used on Mosquitos bombing almost from deck and Lancasters at 30kft? Well, I don't think so. You might be able to set the latter for 11s, but there isn't much reason to do so. A fuze for Mossie-style deck runs needs to be different, because otherwise, the bombs wouldn't explode. Duh. 

 

It could be made more explicit, but the way I see it, 5s+ simply changes the fuze to a low altitude one. There's no reason to select 5s delay if you're going to drop the bombs from up high. As evidenced by great successes of the Mossie, such fuzes existed and worked. Check out Operation Jericho. They bomber the prison from 50 feet and later from 100, and the bombs did blow up pretty nicely. Whatever fuzes you were using, they had a different type, and so do we, when we pick a longer delay.

[busdriver]

11 minutes ago, 30speed said:

IL2 doesn't model any of it, i.e. the same timer you enjoy on the Allied side is available for the Axis on A8 and other aircraft.

 

You are not understanding what I have posted. Get in a 110, load it with bombs, select "contact" for the timer delay then drop from naught height. You may surprise yourself when your plane is blown apart from the blast. Try the same experiment in a P-38, select "contact" for the timer delay then drop from naught height. Make note of your dud bombs. Try explaining the different outcomes with a simple "arcade timer." 

 

6 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I know very well how a normal mechanical fuze works, but do you really thing the same devices would be used on Mosquitos bombing almost from deck and Lancasters at 30kft? Well, I don't think so.

 

We'll agree to disagree. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by busdriver

[Guest deleted@134347]

4 minutes ago, busdriver said:

select "contact" for the timer delay then drop from naught height. You may surprise yourself when your plane is blown apart from the blast. Try the same experiment in a P-38, select "contact" for the timer delay then drop from naught height. Make note of your dud bombs. Try explaining the different outcomes with a simple "arcade timer."

 

I wasn't arguing the contact part but the extra delay that's available to Axis.  I guess there's some sort of fuse modeling after all, or a simple a) german+contact=boom  b) allied + contact="boom possible only after x seconds of flight".  ?

[busdriver]

2 minutes ago, 30speed said:

I guess there's some sort of fuse modeling after all, or a simple a) german+contact=boom  b) allied + contact="boom possible only after x seconds of flight".  ?

 

Exactly.

[Guest deleted@134347]

Just now, busdriver said:

 

Exactly.

 

what makes it even more puzzling is that with P38 when the timer is set to 5 seconds there are never any duds, well, at least in my experience. I think there may be 3 variables in that formula ?  a) contact  b) flight time > 5 seconds  c) if flight time <5 seconds then check if timer=>5 seconds=boom, else=no boom.

[Dragon1-1]

There is modeling, if you set the timer to 5s or more, you get a low-altitude fuze that arms much faster after separating from the aircraft. It's not even anything fancy, it's easy to make a mechanical fuze that needs fewer turns of the arming vane. Using that without a decent delay would be dumb, so if you set it shorter, you get a normal high-altitude fuze. However, for low altitude raids, like what Mosquito did, that's what you would use on your bombs.

[busdriver]

4 minutes ago, 30speed said:

 

what makes it even more puzzling is that with P38 when the timer is set to 5 seconds there are never any duds, well, at least in my experience. I think there may be 3 variables in that formula ?  a) contact  b) flight time > 5 seconds  c) if flight time <5 seconds then check if timer=>5 seconds=boom, else=no boom.

 

Now you're getting it. There is also a speed of airplane component I found when dropping bombs from the U-2VS. Whatever number crunching they're using, parts of it are not related to RL. As you posited 5 second delay is the failsafe value.

[Guest deleted@134347]

2 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

There is modeling, if you set the timer to 5s or more, you get a low-altitude fuze that arms much faster after separating from the aircraft. It's not even anything fancy, it's easy to make a mechanical fuze that needs fewer turns of the arming vane. Using that without a decent delay would be dumb, so if you set it shorter, you get a normal high-altitude fuze. However, for low altitude raids, like what Mosquito did, that's what you would use on your bombs.

 

in P38 you can drop a bomb from 10m and if it's set to 5s delay it'll explode. What is turning where for the fuse to arm?

 

[busdriver]

4 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

There is modeling, if you set the timer to 5s or more, you get a low-altitude fuze that arms much faster after separating from the aircraft.

 

Well, you've given the Devs credit where they've not claimed any. You're making an assumption. Nothing wrong with the logic, but the Devs never suggested they're modeling different types of mechanical fuses. 

[Dragon1-1]

Well, they include the failsafe delay depending on the detonation delay (it's removed at the point where it stops being a bad idea to do so). I merely assume it's not a happy programming accident, which is a much rarer than unhappy programming accidents (bugs). Also, German bombs do not have that delay. In effect, there is a basic fuze type modeling.

[Guest deleted@134347]

11 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, they include the failsafe delay depending on the detonation delay (it's removed at the point where it stops being a bad idea to do so). I merely assume it's not a happy programming accident, which is a much rarer than unhappy programming accidents (bugs). Also, German bombs do not have that delay. In effect, there is a basic fuze type modeling.

 

fuse tech aside I think you know about the game capabilities as much as we do. The only consistency I'm able to observe is:

• the 5 seconds delay (or >5s) works on all aircraft, all bomb types, and all engagement types (diving/level/low).
• 'contact' works on Axis side when dropped from any height, no minimum
• 'contact' works on Allied if only dropped from minimum height X (however I have no idea what that X minimum is)

Edited May 18, 2021 by 30speed

[busdriver]

This screenshot is from a Tester post I made 3 years ago. The chart is from testing I did with the U-2VS

 

 

30 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, they include the failsafe delay depending on the detonation delay (it's removed at the point where it stops being a bad idea to do so).

 

That may be the case, but I doubt you can find in game a set of release parameters where an Allied pilot can "frag mort" himself. That's totally inaccurate. And to be clear, even a few Mosquito crews became "frag morts" on low level ops. I'll get tail numbers, Sqn number and mission dates for you.

[Dragon1-1]

Of course, IRL there's nothing stopping from setting 2 or 3 seconds delay on a low-alt fuze and blowing your tail to bits (and I know this happened, low alt bombing is risky business). The sim stops you, since we don't have separate fuze type and delay selection, just one combined setting, which appears to select from three different arming delay options in addition to setting the detonation delay.

 

What is not true, despite what you implied earlier, that this arming delay should apply to all Allied bombs across the board.

[busdriver]

17 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Of course, IRL there's nothing stopping from setting 2 or 3 seconds delay on a low-alt fuze and blowing your tail to bits (and I know this happened, low alt bombing is risky business).

 

We actually agree on something.

 

17 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The sim stops you, since we don't have separate fuze type and delay selection, just one combined setting,

 

The sim only stops Allied pilots from fragging themselves. The sim does NOT stop German pilots from fragging themselves. I infer that you think the sim models some sort of unspecific smart fuse choice by the "BB stackers" for the Allies and leave the Germans to adhere to more realistic delivery parameters. You apparently don't see a disconnect with this fact. 

 

24 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

What is not true, despite what you implied earlier, that this arming delay should apply to all Allied bombs across the board.

 

Absent the smart fuse choice for Allies you imply the sim makes, equitable game play would suggest making Allied fuse options consistent. I'll gladly read your references that can explain how a mechanical fuse that functions at naught height with a 5 second delay would not function with "contact" or anything up to 5 seconds.

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

I infer that you think the sim models some sort of unspecific smart fuse choice by the "BB stackers" for the Allies and leave the Germans to adhere to more realistic delivery parameters. You apparently don't see a disconnect with this fact. 

No, I don't see a disconnect that wouldn't derive from historical circumstances (and this is fine, since it's a historical sim). The Germans simply don't have a fuze that would implement a safety delay. IIRC, they didn't have one during WWII, since they used electric fuzes. Hence, they can't chose the safer option when short delays are set.

 

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

Absent the smart fuse choice for Allies you imply the sim makes, equitable game play would suggest making Allied fuse options consistent. I'll gladly read your references that can explain how a mechanical fuse that functions at naught height with a 5 second delay would not function with "contact" or anything up to 5 seconds.

It would function. We just don't get that sort of fuse when we select "contact", we get a high-altitude one. As I said, one UI element does two things in the sim. 

 

It'd hardly be the only sacrifice to realism made by Il-2 for the sake of "streamlining" and "simplicity". Why else would we have gauges that switch between tanks by themselves? Honestly, this is hardly even the biggest thing they dumbed down in such manner.

[busdriver]

45 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

No, I don't see a disconnect...

 Okay LOL. 

 

46 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It would function. We just don't get that sort of fuse when we select "contact", we get a high-altitude one...

 

If you look closely at my chart a couple of post above you will see "contact" works when dropping somewhere between 250-300 meters AGL. Not sure how you can up with the notion that is high altitude. But I have to admit your logic is creative. 

[Dragon1-1]

"High altitude" meaning "doesn't blow up when dropped on deck". Bombs don't need to fall all that far for them to arm, the delay is there to keep them from damaging the aircraft that drops them. 300m is a reasonable pull-up altitude when divebombing with contact fuzes. No need to be creative, just a little bit of common sense. 

 

Unless you can supply historical documents stating exactly how many seconds a typical Allied fuze needed to arm itself, I'm going to assume the current behavior is OK. Most likely, the documents would show you that the current situation in the sim is plausible, if somewhat constrained.