Player AAA - A toothless Tiger? (GAZ&Co online)

[Monostripezebra]

I just got the GAZ MM.. and while I only got a day, it allready feels like it is an absolute dog. So lets talk AAA gameplay online, not GAZ vs AI, but player vs players were the beef is at..

 

how do you fare and what are ways to make it work better?

 

Things to note:

Obligatory link to Requiems Tutorial

and the pointer that with "win+C" keys you can open the gunshields (which matters in trying to be a little less vulnerable even in direct head-to-head shooting matches)

 

Situational assesment:

In my perception, any groundbased AAA is always at a disadvantage: Spotting ground units is fairly easy, generally in Il2... and specifically once your position is given away (by firing shots or getting shot at)- At this point you can not substancially move away, but rather everyone in the area knows you are there and even if vis contact is lost, can scan the limited area easily from a standoff distance until they see you.. meaning people can tag-team you or otherwise chose the time of engagement to your disadvantage, somewhat (depending on air cover) while your attention is cluttered by air and ground stuff and avoiding invisible objects, checking for tanks behind you etc..

 

But this general issue is even worse in the GAZ, because A) it is very fragile and even players who "don´t-give-a-frick"-style go in head to head and get really close can outgun you (Hello there, General BF-110..and yeah, I can shoot AI ones down easy, but competent players eat GAZ for breakfast) and out-tank the return fire.. because B) it is a very unstable gun plattform, even with stabilizer (default key G, also known as "immobilizer" because no more driving) on with a low fire rate and often poor damage potential (couple of hits needed).. and even head-to-head it is much much harder to get hits with the GAZ then it is to put guns on target on a fast plane.. and even not direct hits of 20mm explosive shells with area damage will take out crew.

 

Overall, really adjusting the sights in an online environment for the target appears to be really hard, as you usually don´t have time.. there is no quick-mission style  nice settup of aircraft who come in.. and only head in your direction.. or ones which come in via a clear engagement profiles but a rather constant swarmed and you have the workload of switching from comander (with best view which one is going hot and becoming a threat or target) to gunner and moving the gun with repeated-mouse dragging (white GUI circle jumps back once on boundary, so new mouse drag)  slowing rotation (control setups may differ, but the mouse GUI definately costs you oversight and time)

 

 

Is the ASSISt a BUG?

I also noted, that apparently you can not turn off some auto-assist features like angle of bow dial in switching back on constantly.. and constantly entering values, even with no clear target close

Overall, it is also unclear to me what target it is actually referencing.. in a multitarget environment. and so your gunsight will change while you aim at one target coming in.. making corrections by tracer even harder.

 

Truth be told, subjectivly it feels like shoot more planes down in normal tanks who at least pack a punch and shoot where you aim then in the GAZ MM. Ok, that maybe me.. but so far, I have not really seen anyone online doing a stellar job in them and on the plane end of things, I got them all times so far without any major issues, especially as fast aircraft with lots of gunpower and area-effect weapons like the P-38

Edited May 17, 2021 by Monostripezebra

[BraveSirRobin]

Yeah, you're pretty vulnerable in the GAZ.  But it's still fun.

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, Monostripezebra said:

I just got the GAZ MM.. and while I only got a day, it allready feels like it is an absolute dog.

Good… good… You get a sense of why any AAA gunner thinks twice of kicking down that pedal to fire away and giving up his (camouflaged) position. And regarding that, most guns require a lot if work to move, not like our GAZ. Also, you see now why you always place more than one gun. (At least if it is aircraft that you are worried about.)

 

The only issue I have with that gun is its very poor firing rate. Also the aiming sight I find not practical. How „easy“ it is to enter correct values is well made obvious in the game, especially when you have to do the work of two people alone and nobody on a telemeter. The firing rate hurts the gun, because the way you shoot is to let the plane fly through your volley. (Diagonal reference lines help that.) If successful, a low firing rate means few hits. The GAZ makes it very obvious that just hosing down a target is difficult if you have no reference of where the bullets actually hit at distance of the aircraft.

 

I like the GAZ, it‘s a great addon to the game, both technical and in terms of gameplay.

 

Edit: As this gun is probably meant to track while firing, the aiming assist should probably require some sort of target designator. The gunner must have a way to tell his buddies what plane to aim for, else the whole show is a moot exercise. And it is not nice if sights are switched while pointing the gun where there are severa aircraft and aiming reference switches. Also always getting 100% correct sighting presets is hardly realistic, but a decent should produce reasonable settings. In the game, laser precision on their part would probably be the only tolerable option though…

 

So yes, a target designator like pressing a key and the aircraft in your sights receives a visual cue (of some sort) and then sighting is set upon that specific aircraft. I think that would really help this gun. You actually had a crew then. At least we don‘t have to press reload after each clip.

 

Until then, setting some elevation and just trying to get the planes fly though your volley is the only thing that really produces results in my hands. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by ZachariasX

[Hanu]

6 hours ago, Monostripezebra said:

I have not really seen anyone online doing a stellar job in them

 

Agreed, but as a reality check: you have to take note that AAA's function is mostly to fire barrage to protect their other military assets.

 

If you compare how many AAA pieces were produced and how many aircraft were produced it is more than obvious that there were no AA-aces hanging around. For many reasons for sure, but planes would have ran out quickly in every airforce if every artillery piece could have claimed even one aircraft.

That being said, it is still fun like BraveSirRobin pointed out.

[Monostripezebra]

5 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

 why any AAA gunner thinks twice of kicking down that pedal to fire away and giving up his (camouflaged) position.

 

while holding fire until you have a really good shot is essential as GAZ player, camouflage does not really exist as gameplay mechanic. Once can try hiding in woods, but that renders you useless, as even the invisible top branches of trees stop your rounds (ie: no field of fire). Hiding in villages by posing as part of a building complex works somewhat better  (better field of fire and mostly only found by planes with dedicated search).

 

but that also negates the gameplay intent:

 

essentially the problem, that aircraft that know what they are doing will very onesidedly engage tank pushs, especially the more late-war the scenario (faster speeds, better and more weapons) and the idea of giving some sort of protection by the player AAA vehicles to player driven tanks only applies to some "gun only" slow threads like Henschel 129 or Stukas (or soviet U2s) which are in a low engagement profile with slower speeds and some factor 10ish more vulnerable, if at all. Gameplaywise, those attacks are less of a balance issue though, because people who do take that risks of a slow gun stuka instead of a 500Kg bomb with the Bf110 (or a u2 or late Il2 instead of dive bombing in a Pe2) are a ton less likely to even get to the engagement..  While I personally find those fights with slow gun or rocket fighters against tank more fun and more balanced, they are significantly less likely to be a player choice given much more efficent options.. rendering the AAA vehicles quite obsolete as means of making player vs player aircraft on tank encounters less onesided.

 

I kind of expect the german AAA to be more efficent though (more stable halftrack gun plattform, higher rate of fire.. more straight shooting, recoilwise), but that is so far still open. 

 

5 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

 

Also the aiming sight I find not practical. How „easy“ it is to enter correct values is well made obvious in the game, especially when you have to do the work of two people alone and nobody on a telemeter. The firing rate hurts the gun, because the way you shoot is to let the plane fly through your volley. (Diagonal reference lines help that.) If successful, a low firing rate means few hits. The GAZ makes it very obvious that just hosing down a target is difficult if you have no reference of where the bullets actually hit at distance of the aircraft.

 

I like the GAZ, it‘s a great addon to the game, both technical and in terms of gameplay.

 

Edit: As this gun is probably meant to track while firing, the aiming assist should probably require some sort of target designator. The gunner must have a way to tell his buddies what plane to aim for, else the whole show is a moot exercise. And it is not nice if sights are switched while pointing the gun where there are severa aircraft and aiming reference switches. Also always getting 100% correct sighting presets is hardly realistic, but a decent should produce reasonable settings. In the game, laser precision on their part would probably be the only tolerable option though…

 

So yes, a target designator like pressing a key and the aircraft in your sights receives a visual cue (of some sort) and then sighting is set upon that specific aircraft. I think that would really help this gun. You actually had a crew then. At least we don‘t have to press reload after each clip.

 

Until then, setting some elevation and just trying to get the planes fly though your volley is the only thing that really produces results in my hands. 

 

I agree here.. the GAZ is fun, but a mechanic to either completly turn off the aim-assisting parameter input into the sight or/and having that manually assigned to a target by the player much rather then what the logic things you are shooting at would mean a significant usability improvement for player AAA.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hanu said:

 

Agreed, but as a reality check: you have to take note that AAA's function is mostly to fire barrage to protect their other military assets.

 

If you compare how many AAA pieces were produced and how many aircraft were produced it is more than obvious that there were no AA-aces hanging around. For many reasons for sure, but planes would have ran out quickly in every airforce if every artillery piece could have claimed even one aircraft.

That being said, it is still fun like BraveSirRobin pointed out.

 

While you are mostly right (but there where flak aces, so to speak) the particular gameplay problem here is "armored vehicle escort" not static gun emplacement. Reasons for which the germans actually specifically developed things like Möbelwagen, "Wirbelwind", "Ostwind" AAA-Tanks with more resilience to direct fire and area effect splinters of bombs... and the mobility to keep up with tanks.. 

The allies came to exact the same conclusions and had similar things developed , despite the western allies not really needing them anymore at the normandy invasion (for example no crusader AA was ever used against aircraft) while I think on the russian side the corresponding ZSU came to late.

 

 

THESE things which would gameplaywise also be needed for the same task (mobility, resilience and firepower), hence why I would argue that it would have been better to implement things that have those aspects, as gameplay wise the GAZ online has little more then collectors value (as kill marking for aircraft players.)

Edited May 17, 2021 by Monostripezebra

[super-truite]

I am not that useful when I play the Gaz, but it is fun to play. 
The only times when are useful is when:
1) I distract attack planes from our heavy tanks (because they cannot do a slow pass on the column like before without dealing with me first)
2) when I team up with a light/medium tank to go hunt some cats. The suppression effect is horrible when you are inside a Tiger and getting shot at by a Gaz. This allows the t34s and M4A2 to close the distance to get the kill.

Regarding kills, I win my duels with a plane once every 5-6 sorties  or so , so do not mind your K/D ratio  when in a gaz. It takes a while for planes to come back so it is not so bad all in all.

[Monostripezebra]

Considering that one of the close-in deficiencies of the GAZ is the fire rate (its problem is less engaging planes at distance between 1-2000m, where it is doing more ok) and that the german AAA will not have that problem, I think it could really make sense to have the allready-in-game machine gun armament as a balance:

 

GAZ AAA MAXIM - Machine gun variant as good weapon mod?

 

It is less leathal due to caliber and less anti-tank, but the high volume of fire and damage chances provide much better deterent for repeated low and close runs.. (judging from flying against these AI models, but the should be much easier to aim for players, too) and thus will be a better close-in escort protection for tanks (albeit limited by the slow off-road speed, through terrain).

 

IE: having the GAZ with an MG variant would be a relative low-effort cost effective means of balancing the game play a bit better

[LachenKrieg]

On 5/16/2021 at 9:55 PM, Monostripezebra said:

I just got the GAZ MM.. and while I only got a day, it allready feels like it is an absolute dog. So lets talk AAA gameplay online, not GAZ vs AI, but player vs players were the beef is at..

 

how do you fare and what are ways to make it work better?

 

Things to note:

Obligatory link to Requiems Tutorial

and the pointer that with "win+C" keys you can open the gunshields (which matters in trying to be a little less vulnerable even in direct head-to-head shooting matches)

 

Situational assesment:

In my perception, any groundbased AAA is always at a disadvantage: Spotting ground units is fairly easy, generally in Il2... and specifically once your position is given away (by firing shots or getting shot at)- At this point you can not substancially move away, but rather everyone in the area knows you are there and even if vis contact is lost, can scan the limited area easily from a standoff distance until they see you.. meaning people can tag-team you or otherwise chose the time of engagement to your disadvantage, somewhat (depending on air cover) while your attention is cluttered by air and ground stuff and avoiding invisible objects, checking for tanks behind you etc..

 

But this general issue is even worse in the GAZ, because A) it is very fragile and even players who "don´t-give-a-frick"-style go in head to head and get really close can outgun you (Hello there, General BF-110..and yeah, I can shoot AI ones down easy, but competent players eat GAZ for breakfast) and out-tank the return fire.. because B) it is a very unstable gun plattform, even with stabilizer (default key G, also known as "immobilizer" because no more driving) on with a low fire rate and often poor damage potential (couple of hits needed).. and even head-to-head it is much much harder to get hits with the GAZ then it is to put guns on target on a fast plane.. and even not direct hits of 20mm explosive shells with area damage will take out crew.

 

Overall, really adjusting the sights in an online environment for the target appears to be really hard, as you usually don´t have time.. there is no quick-mission style  nice settup of aircraft who come in.. and only head in your direction.. or ones which come in via a clear engagement profiles but a rather constant swarmed and you have the workload of switching from comander (with best view which one is going hot and becoming a threat or target) to gunner and moving the gun with repeated-mouse dragging (white GUI circle jumps back once on boundary, so new mouse drag)  slowing rotation (control setups may differ, but the mouse GUI definately costs you oversight and time)

 

 

Is the ASSISt a BUG?

I also noted, that apparently you can not turn off some auto-assist features like angle of bow dial in switching back on constantly.. and constantly entering values, even with no clear target close

Overall, it is also unclear to me what target it is actually referencing.. in a multitarget environment. and so your gunsight will change while you aim at one target coming in.. making corrections by tracer even harder.

 

Truth be told, subjectivly it feels like shoot more planes down in normal tanks who at least pack a punch and shoot where you aim then in the GAZ MM. Ok, that maybe me.. but so far, I have not really seen anyone online doing a stellar job in them and on the plane end of things, I got them all times so far without any major issues, especially as fast aircraft with lots of gunpower and area-effect weapons like the P-38

 

[ZachariasX]

I love Requiems videos. But it would be great having an original maual regarding mission doctrine and rules of procedure of these AAA guns. I mean the GAZ is made so well that now in game we basically face (some of) the same problems (but not all) that people back then also faced. The rules of procedure usually are insightful on how to make best use of these things as much as it tells you about the people operating them.

[LachenKrieg]

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

I love Requiems videos. But it would be great having an original maual regarding mission doctrine and rules of procedure of these AAA guns. I mean the GAZ is made so well that now in game we basically face (some of) the same problems (but not all) that people back then also faced. The rules of procedure usually are insightful on how to make best use of these things as much as it tells you about the people operating them.

It's not only made well, it is probably the best modeled vehicle in the Great Battle Series SIM to date. If this is the level of quality we can expect from collector vehicles, then I can't see how the concept won't work. My only concern now is that they set the bar so damn high with the GAZ, I hope I am not disappointed with its soon to arrive German counterpart.

 

It is kinda nice to see how the IL2 GBS is slowly pulling it all together. What use to be a WWII flight simulator is now well on its way to becoming a WWII combined arms simulator, and I like it! I see the AAA collector vehicles as being more than just a step to bridge the divide between air and ground assets. I see them also as a major step forward in promoting team game play, and one that is sure to enrich the multi-player experience. Now ground forces can not only ask for support from air assets to reach their objective, they can actually defend against them, which makes sense because that's the way it was.

 

Considering all the efforts put into modeling multi-crew vehicles/planes, it would be nice to see the community latch on to that style of game play, and utilize the SIM's full potential. This could only help improve the multi-player experience and encourage the IL2 Dev team to continue making the SIM more real IMO. 

 

But the moral of the story here seems to be, if you want to see the Tiger's teeth, I guess you just need to learn how to make him smile.

 

 

[JG27_Steini]

2 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

Considering all the efforts put into modeling multi-crew vehicles/planes, it would be nice to see the community latch on to that style of game play, and utilize the SIM's full potential. This could only help improve the multi-player experience and encourage the IL2 Dev team to continue making the SIM more real IMO. 

 

 

 

We need more special vehicles like the GAZ, light weight recon vehicles, artiellery, fast light tanks and many more. This is the way it would attrack many peoples.

[M3Grant]

We have artillery, it just isn't implemented well. The Su-122 and Su-152 are both self propelled artillery.

[LachenKrieg]

5 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

 

We need more special vehicles like the GAZ, light weight recon vehicles, artiellery, fast light tanks and many more. This is the way it would attrack many peoples.

I agree, there is a lot that they could add to attract more people. TBH, my favorite tank at the moment is the PzIII, and I would love to see an AI infantry element with a decent light tank selection added.

[Monostripezebra]

On 5/17/2021 at 3:55 AM, Monostripezebra said:

(...)

how do you fare and what are ways to make it work better?

 

Things to note:

Obligatory link to Requiems Tutorial

(..)

 

14 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

 

 

Did you just want to embedd that video again or did you miss that I had that specifically pointed out first post?

[LachenKrieg]

Oops my bad. Sorry I didn't see the first post, but the video is so good, might be worth a second viewing just to help get the swing of it.

[LukeFF]

On 5/16/2021 at 6:55 PM, Monostripezebra said:

Is the ASSISt a BUG?

I also noted, that apparently you can not turn off some auto-assist features like angle of bow dial in switching back on constantly.. and constantly entering values, even with no clear target close

 

No, not a bug - it looks like you are driving the truck on Autopilot, which means every time you tell the vehicle to turn to the left or the right, it's also going to adjust the target aspect angle value.

[Monostripezebra]

On 5/19/2021 at 10:01 AM, LukeFF said:

 

No, not a bug - it looks like you are driving the truck on Autopilot, which means every time you tell the vehicle to turn to the left or the right, it's also going to adjust the target aspect angle value.

 

It is online.. on a server where you can´t use autopilot. there is no way to turn it off. Try it.

 

I don´t even have an autopilot key assigned.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Monostripezebra

[unreasonable]

Just now, Monostripezebra said:

 

It is online.. on a server where you can´t use autopilot. there is no way to turn it off. Try it.

 

I don´t even have an autopilot key assigned.

 

Maybe that is why you cannot turn it off?  

On 5/18/2021 at 6:23 PM, ZachariasX said:

I love Requiems videos. But it would be great having an original maual regarding mission doctrine and rules of procedure of these AAA guns. I mean the GAZ is made so well that now in game we basically face (some of) the same problems (but not all) that people back then also faced. The rules of procedure usually are insightful on how to make best use of these things as much as it tells you about the people operating them.

 

There is an online 40mm Bofors M1 (AA) manual - mostly assembly, maintenance, operation etc but with some instructions on how to use the sight system. I have no idea how this would convert to the GAZ. It does not have mission doctrine as such: I expect that was "Set up ASAP where ordered and fire at anything in range...."   

 

http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/boforstm252

 

 

 

 

[Monostripezebra]

1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

 

Maybe that is why you cannot turn it off?

 

 

negative.. I set autopilot keys and tested it in quickmission at different realism settings... they do not appear have any effect on that mechanism

[Monostripezebra]

Some other fun (minor, not really gameplay relevant) bugs:

 

 

[Avimimus]

5 hours ago, Monostripezebra said:

Some other fun (minor, not really gameplay relevant) bugs:

 

Ghost Train!!!!

On 5/17/2021 at 12:47 AM, ZachariasX said:

The only issue I have with that gun is its very poor firing rate.

 

So you wouldn't prefer a 37mm? More like 4x20mm?

[Monostripezebra]

5 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

"The only issue I have with that gun is its very poor firing rate. "

 

So you wouldn't prefer a 37mm? More like 4x20mm?

 

I may be guilty of a bit "hypothetical" speak here... as the german AAA is not even released yet, but due to the parameters I really expect the firerate to be a MP balancing issue.

 

The reason is, that game situations are always a bit peculiar and artifical. Unlike the real world with thousands of people, layered defense systems etc.. the player AAA will always be kinda far-and-between in most scenarios (ie: more people playing aircraft and some more tanks) and gameplay wise, the place where they really make a difference is the more close in-defence of player tanks to thward very powerfull close-in attack.  As opposed to a more ranged slow-firing deterent (which the gaz can do, but once people realize how pinata-esque it is, you just drive over it in your 110, especially due to explosve ammo area effects... together with how gameplay works (time is a major factor due to server session, long tank travel times..) it means you can have tanks with AAA component very quickly seperated from that..

 

Now in the real world ther would also be soldiers and small arms fire or mgs to make that more hazardous, but in game there will be not. IE: for those kind of tasks, firerate is king.. and there is also a timeframe difference. The GAZ is fun and relatively balanced against planes in the 300ish KpH range, stukas, Il2.. Ju52 suffer a bit.. and biplanes of Flying Circus as I tested, are kind of overmatched (but very fun)... But late war scenarios see the GAZ as almost useless.. I mean, there is a reason the germans went to the Vierlingsflack etc.. you need a lot of lead with heavy impact, nothing else will cut it, the later the war scenario.  So it is not big secret that the german AAA vehicle will be very likely much better suited for where player AAA as gameplay meta matters (despite beeing no vierling). It is just logical. I know it offends the "oh muh, realism" faction, but gameplay is not real world and the elements chosen from the real world need to reflect that. Hence why I think the 4-MG GAZ may actually be a cost efficent try towards better balance. (under multiplayer aspects.. don´t get me wrong, the GAZ definately is very beautiful and has collectors value.. but it falls relative short in some gameplay aspects and that WILL become more apparent once the german AAA is released. Trust me, I´m a Zebra.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Monostripezebra

[ZachariasX]

11 hours ago, Avimimus said:

So you wouldn't prefer a 37mm? More like 4x20mm?

I would very much prefer a 4x 20 mm or a 37 mm.

 

The 37 mm gives me a considerably greater firing range, although the gun suffers from everything that makes the GAZ a "not good" AAA gun.

 

The 4x20 mm is far, far better due to the rate of fire. It can do 40 rounds where the GAZ does about 4, meaning one Flakvierling gives you 10 GAZ guns. It is as simple as that.

 

But also the German 20 mm gun is suboptimal. It has a gunsight that makes sense in 1935 or that makes sense on a 37 mm gun for the simple reason that the target has to be *steady* in range for a certain time to make proper ajustments on these "exact" gunsights.

 

In 1935, an attacker spent 20 seconds in the range of a 20 mm AAA gun before his bomb detonates on the AAA gunner. In 1945, this time decreased to 10 seconds. If you take 4 seconds to set up your aim and 4 seconds between bomb release and *kaboom*, then in 1935, you have 12 seconds to dispose of your enemy.

 

In 1935, the GAZ gives you ~50 rounds

The 20 mm gives you~100 rounds. The 4x 20 mm gives you ~400 rounds.

 

In 1945, the GAZ gives you 10 (!) rounds and the Oerlikon gives you 20 rounds, or 80 for the Flakvierling.

In this expample, adjusting the gunsight in 1945 cut your argument down to 20% of what it could have been.

 

As the 37 mm gun can shoot 4 km, even in 1945 the target will spend more than 10 seconds in a situation where you can actually fire at him, not 2 seconds.

 

You can see how the GAZ gunsight is working very much against its own gun under any but the very controlled circumstances.

 

I guess this is why this kind of gunsight was ditched (at least in the Swiss Army) in favor of a way more crude but effective arrangement. While you can compensate for transverse ane elevation, it basically changed to a center dot that has diagonal lines:

 

 

You just put your forehead against the headrest of the gunsight an align the bead to the center of the sight. You can correct for distance, but that is about most you need and for practical purposes any aircarft will be around 1 km from you. Else it is getting too far or if it is closer you are dead.

 

The arrangement also existed as lines on a glass plate (plexi I guess):

 

 

But I wouldn't want to aim with that when it's raining for obvious reasons.

 

The idea here is that you place the projected tracectory of the BöFei on a diagoinal line across the center at a distace that makes him pass through your volley (kick the pedal, 10 rounds go per barrel) at the intersection point where both your bullets and the aircraft. This range is gauged very much by eyeball and gut feeling, but the longer you can make your salvo the more you can put your string of bullets ahead of him that is still long enough to make him pass through it if unsure about giving lead. The higher the rate of fire in your gun the more times he will be hit.

 

if he tranverses at 30 m/s, your 10 rounds will be spaced 3 m each, meaning you can in principle strike an aircraft 3 times. You can see how quickly the GAZ gets useless, as the rounds are spaced almost at the lenght of an aircraft, menaing you get something like half a *good* hit.

 

Bottom line is, for guns to be used with anything aircraft, fire rate is king. It trumps everything.

 

For the purpose of the game, the GAZ is awesome and great fun. But this mainly due to we gamers are not using weapons as you conveniently would use them in the real world. We gamers go out there to hunt and with open intention to shoot down / blow up stuff. The AAA gun does primarily something other than just shooting down aircraft. It mainly denies operation of aircraft withing its effective range. That computer players are Kamikazes with endless supply of life man material negates this very central aspect of AAA coverage. However, we are free to drive your AAA gun where you can expect to shoot down stuff, defense is not a topic, as you quickly realize how many of such gund you need to deter a computer player.

 

Our in game GAZ is in fact a very ineffective weapon in the real world. It is better than nothing, but not much better. Why? AAA emplacements are complex affairs. They utmost rely on functioning communication. The gunner must know well in advance if there be problems closing in. An attack on an unexpecting gunner crew takes far less long that making a gun ready to fire. In our came with voice coms, we have communication in a way they could never dream of beck then. Establishing good and robust communication makes even the lightest of all AAA weapons (like the Stinger MANPAD) a cumbersome affair. But that one is sure handy if you just hand some to troops and tell them "if you don't like it, shoot it!". THEN that thing is bloody effective.

[LukeFF]

...so, in other words, the usage of the GAZ gun truck in MP is just further proof that online flight and ground combat simming only bears the most fleeting resemblance to reality.  

[JG1_Wittmann]

I haven't tried the Russian  GAZ AA,  haven't gotten it either after seeing some of the performance reviews.   It seems like it's actual role  is to be a gimmick.  It's not really effective vs AC on MP servers  due to a slow rate of fire, and very low Ammo count,  according to many others that have used it.    The 20mm for the Germans, with a single gun,  "may" prove  to be slightly better vs ground attackers.   At the end of the day,  I feel that is what a large % of the players are  looking at.   

 

I do not understand the logic behind either of these  guns, unless they are simply trial balloons.  There are multi gun arrangements available in game that would be much more effective.  The German Flakvierling,  the US  M16  with the Quad 50's  ,  probably even the GAZ with the 4 30 cals.   I think a problem  is that it seems like the Russians maybe  did not develop a multi-barrel, effective  self propelled AA  carriage.   Germany  had the quad 20 truck,  Whirblewind, among others.  The ammo amounts  carried  was  a lot higher than 140 or so.    I'm sure the M16  carried thousands of rounds as well. 

 

Controlled by AI  this 72k or  single 20  truck may do ok  .   The  flakvierling  is a very devastating  weapon vs lower level AC.    I ran a test mission flying some bombers, etc  over a couple.  AC did not fare very well.   I should rerun that mission if I can find it using the M16  vs some bf110's,  ju88's  190, 109 etc to see how they perform

 

I would say to the devs  that  let's get over the trinkety, non-effective AA  and give us a player use-able  Multi Gun  platform  so some impact on ground attack can be had by  people on the ground.  FlakVierling,  and M16 to start.  Some non-selfpropelled, towable versions as well.   Know you know the GAZ AA  blows when you see allied ground players  saying they get more AC kills with the 50 on a sherman  than they can or do with the GAZ.  It really  seems to be a very under-whelming AA platform, and not real successful in stopping or reducing ground attack AC.  I guess the question is,  were either of those 2 results ever an objective ? 

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

...so, in other words, the usage of the GAZ gun truck in MP is just further proof that online flight and ground combat simming only bears the most fleeting resemblance to reality.  

In the sense that the GAZ makes AAA gunnery fun, that's a yes.

 

[Monostripezebra]

10 hours ago, LukeFF said:

...so, in other words, the usage of the GAZ gun truck in MP is just further proof that online flight and ground combat simming only bears the most fleeting resemblance to reality.  

 

Well, I guess only somewhat ignorant people would oversee that a game situation with mechanics like limited player numbers, limited server time, how and where are the players spawned in in relation to each other, what else goes from player action (that the mission maker can only herd like cats and not even numbers per side are a given)... is allways full of game mechanics by default.. no sim label or "realism fetish" can or will ever change that. It would be absurd to think that, appart from the whole famous "dying is undermodeled, however" aspect.

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

Controlled by AI  this 72k or  single 20  truck may do ok  .   The  flakvierling  is a very devastating  weapon vs lower level AC.    I ran a test mission flying some bombers, etc  over a couple.  AC did not fare very well.   I should rerun that mission if I can find it using the M16  vs some bf110's,  ju88's  190, 109 etc to see how they perform

 

(...) saying they get more AC kills with the 50 on a sherman  than they can or do with the GAZ.  It really  seems to be a very under-whelming AA platform, and not real successful in stopping or reducing ground attack AC.  I guess the question is,  were either of those 2 results ever an objective ? 

 

you can not really compare AI performance and player performance. AI hits difficult shots much more reliable but fails at other tasks and it has perfect awareness of who is there and what side he/she/it is on. Identifying highflying planes alone with only a few pixels is a really hard task and players are surprisable.. but on the plus side they should know when there is a friendly between them and the target (current AI does simply fire without hesitation for any friends)

 

WW2 airwar has like several stages.. Like I said in the beginning, ground based AAA has some disadvantages (especially location based), but for certain game mechanics a player controled AAA (once you have tanks) absolutely has its role.. especially that of escorting player tanks. And the example of tanks actually fighting back like Shermans with their 50ies is very fun for both sides... However, the gameplay varies very much with what era we look at and late war with predominatly very fast fighter bombers and a gameworld where experienced players can see and ID tanks from 3-4 KM up any low firerate, lowishly impact AAA is toast.

 

The GAZ, while really a high quality model and in many ways a cool, fun product is very much outdated against even early war fighters, I killed quite a bit of them on a more quick action server to test it.. and with a bit more tactics then going frontally gun vs gun it is very much onesided.

 

However agains slower and low planes like groundattackers in the 200-300km/h region it can be very fun fights for both sides (a lot less onesided).. but the GAZ also has a very very challenging gunsight... but overall settings with planes like gun-stukas vs GAZ can be very fun.

 

Here is an unstaged MP example of how it looks getting some realistic GAZ shots (finnish Dynamic War server, german GAZ because both sides have them).. with only damage to the groundpounding Il2: you can see me struggle with the lead on the gunsight and the hits only coming when the aspect angle runs throuh 0 in the bank. A less weird gunsight like a simple iron sight and high firerate would have ment the Il2 would have been toast, probably.

 

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

In the sense that the GAZ makes AAA gunnery fun, that's a yes.

 

 

While I personally think that statement is true, fun online outside of quick action servers may be very limited for the assumed standard player, though.. and that is why don´t see many GAZes. You spent ages before you even have planes close to get a shot, and that are often too far out things.. so you can spend many play sessions without even getting to shoot at planes and if you do, the halfaway competent players who watch for GAZ tracers can then simply stand off and find you from a stand off distance and then just drive over you.. dive down, fire from some 1000m away and let the explosive ammo area effect do its thing... bomb blast. It really does not take much to kill a GAZ, especially in a fast plane.

 

That does not mean the GAZ is unfun.. on the contrary, I love it.. but for non-masochists it requires a setting where it is placed in an adequate context (ie: predominantly lower speed aircraft that need to be lower flying) to be somewhat of a credible opposition and less pinata. In a 44 or 45 setting on a more "realistically" focused server taking the GAZ is very pointless if you care for your V-lifes, Kills or even just hits on target and will, compared to what other players in planes etc. experience be placing you in a very different pace of action and usefullness (should you care for any "mission goals" on the server)

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Monostripezebra

[LachenKrieg]

On 5/23/2021 at 9:10 PM, Monostripezebra said:

 

I may be guilty of a bit "hypothetical" speak here... as the german AAA is not even released yet, but due to the parameters I really expect the firerate to be a MP balancing issue.

 

The reason is, that game situations are always a bit peculiar and artifical. Unlike the real world with thousands of people, layered defense systems etc.. the player AAA will always be kinda far-and-between in most scenarios (ie: more people playing aircraft and some more tanks) and gameplay wise, the place where they really make a difference is the more close in-defence of player tanks to thward very powerfull close-in attack.  As opposed to a more ranged slow-firing deterent (which the gaz can do, but once people realize how pinata-esque it is, you just drive over it in your 110, especially due to explosve ammo area effects... together with how gameplay works (time is a major factor due to server session, long tank travel times..) it means you can have tanks with AAA component very quickly seperated from that..

 

Now in the real world ther would also be soldiers and small arms fire or mgs to make that more hazardous, but in game there will be not. IE: for those kind of tasks, firerate is king.. and there is also a timeframe difference. The GAZ is fun and relatively balanced against planes in the 300ish KpH range, stukas, Il2.. Ju52 suffer a bit.. and biplanes of Flying Circus as I tested, are kind of overmatched (but very fun)... But late war scenarios see the GAZ as almost useless.. I mean, there is a reason the germans went to the Vierlingsflack etc.. you need a lot of lead with heavy impact, nothing else will cut it, the later the war scenario.  So it is not big secret that the german AAA vehicle will be very likely much better suited for where player AAA as gameplay meta matters (despite beeing no vierling). It is just logical. I know it offends the "oh muh, realism" faction, but gameplay is not real world and the elements chosen from the real world need to reflect that. Hence why I think the 4-MG GAZ may actually be a cost efficent try towards better balance. (under multiplayer aspects.. don´t get me wrong, the GAZ definately is very beautiful and has collectors value.. but it falls relative short in some gameplay aspects and that WILL become more apparent once the german AAA is released. Trust me, I´m a Zebra.

 

9 hours ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

I haven't tried the Russian  GAZ AA,  haven't gotten it either after seeing some of the performance reviews.   It seems like it's actual role  is to be a gimmick.  It's not really effective vs AC on MP servers  due to a slow rate of fire, and very low Ammo count,  according to many others that have used it.    The 20mm for the Germans, with a single gun,  "may" prove  to be slightly better vs ground attackers.   At the end of the day,  I feel that is what a large % of the players are  looking at.   

 

I do not understand the logic behind either of these  guns, unless they are simply trial balloons.  There are multi gun arrangements available in game that would be much more effective.  The German Flakvierling,  the US  M16  with the Quad 50's  ,  probably even the GAZ with the 4 30 cals.   I think a problem  is that it seems like the Russians maybe  did not develop a multi-barrel, effective  self propelled AA  carriage.   Germany  had the quad 20 truck,  Whirblewind, among others.  The ammo amounts  carried  was  a lot higher than 140 or so.    I'm sure the M16  carried thousands of rounds as well. 

 

Controlled by AI  this 72k or  single 20  truck may do ok  .   The  flakvierling  is a very devastating  weapon vs lower level AC.    I ran a test mission flying some bombers, etc  over a couple.  AC did not fare very well.   I should rerun that mission if I can find it using the M16  vs some bf110's,  ju88's  190, 109 etc to see how they perform

 

I would say to the devs  that  let's get over the trinkety, non-effective AA  and give us a player use-able  Multi Gun  platform  so some impact on ground attack can be had by  people on the ground.  FlakVierling,  and M16 to start.  Some non-selfpropelled, towable versions as well.   Know you know the GAZ AA  blows when you see allied ground players  saying they get more AC kills with the 50 on a sherman  than they can or do with the GAZ.  It really  seems to be a very under-whelming AA platform, and not real successful in stopping or reducing ground attack AC.  I guess the question is,  were either of those 2 results ever an objective ? 

 

29 minutes ago, Monostripezebra said:

 

Well, I guess only somewhat ignorant people would oversee that a game situation with mechanics like limited player numbers, limited server time, how and where are the players spawned in in relation to each other, what else goes from player action (that the mission maker can only herd like cats and not even numbers per side are a given)... is allways full of game mechanics by default.. no sim label or "realism fetish" can or will ever change that. It would be absurd to think that, appart from the whole famous "dying is undermodeled, however" aspect.

 

 

 

 

 

you can not really compare AI performance and player performance. AI hits difficult shots much more reliable but fails at other tasks and it has perfect awareness of who is there and what side he/she/it is on. Identifying highflying planes alone with only a few pixels is a really hard task and players are surprisable.. but on the plus side they should know when there is a friendly between them and the target (current AI does simply fire without hesitation for any friends)

 

WW2 airwar has like several stages.. Like I said in the beginning, ground based AAA has some disadvantages (especially location based), but for certain game mechanics a player controled AAA (once you have tanks) absolutely has its role.. especially that of escorting player tanks. And the example of tanks actually fighting back like Shermans with their 50ies is very fun for both sides... However, the gameplay varies very much with what era we look at and late war with predominatly very fast fighter bombers and a gameworld where experienced players can see and ID tanks from 3-4 KM up any low firerate, lowishly impact AAA is toast.

 

The GAZ, while really a high quality model and in many ways a cool, fun product is very much outdated against even early war fighters, I killed quite a bit of them on a more quick action server to test it.. and with a bit more tactics then going frontally gun vs gun it is very much onesided.

 

However agains slower and low planes like groundattackers in the 200-300km/h region it can be very fun fights for both sides (a lot less onesided).. but the GAZ also has a very very challenging gunsight... but overall settings with planes like gun-stukas vs GAZ can be very fun.

 

Here is an unstaged MP example of how it looks getting some realistic GAZ shots (finnish Dynamic War server, german GAZ because both sides have them).. with only damage to the groundpounding Il2: you can see me struggle with the lead on the gunsight and the hits only coming when the aspect angle runs throuh 0 in the bank. A less weird gunsight like a simple iron sight and high firerate would have ment the Il2 would have been toast, probably.

 

 

 

 

 

 

While I personally think that statement is true, fun online outside of quick action servers may be very limited for the assumed standard player, though.. and that is why don´t see many GAZes. You spent ages before you even have planes close to get a shot, and that are often too far out things.. so you can spend many play sessions without even getting to shoot at planes and if you do, the halfaway competent players who watch for GAZ tracers can then simply stand off and find you from a stand off distance and then just drive over you.. dive down, fire from some 1000m away and let the explosive ammo area effect do its thing... bomb blast. It really does not take much to kill a GAZ, especially in a fast plane.

 

That does not mean the GAZ is unfun.. on the contrary, I love it.. but for non-masochists it requires a setting where it is placed in an adequate context (ie: predominantly lower speed aircraft that need to be lower flying) to be somewhat of a credible opposition and less pinata. In a 44 or 45 setting on a more "realistically" focused server taking the GAZ is very pointless if you care for your V-lifes, Kills or even just hits on target and will, compared to what other players in planes etc. experience be placing you in a very different pace of action and usefullness (should you care for any "mission goals" on the server)

 

Couple points worth mentioning, but before I do I just wanted to say MonoSZ, I am really enjoying reading your posts and appreciate your comments as a pilot willing to mix it up with tanks once in awhile. So thank you for all the interesting reading material.

 

Regarding the GAZ itself, the ROF I believe is modeled correctly and is what it is. The fact that the whirblewind has a higher ROF with a wider spread is a mute point, because the pilot you are trying to target isn't up against a Whirblewind. We should be encouraging the Devs to make the SIM more real and less arcade, not the other way around.

 

The point is not to be able to shoot all the planes out of the sky, that would be counterintuitive to IL2's mission and would likely cause a major uproar from the pilot's side of things.

 

We should remember that a single GAZ does not make a team. Both sides have the possibility to have pilots, tankers, and AAA snipers. If your team has 10 players, you might want 3 pilots, 5 tanks, and 2 AAA's to reach your objective. Remember, AAA's will be more effective in groups of at least 2, especially when dealing with faster planes. And if you are escorting a group of tanks, you should eventually get some business from the opposing team in terms of being able to pull the trigger. 

 

Learning to use the AAA gun sight efficiently is no small task. The video we both linked might make it look easy, but as you can see for yourself, it's not. It will take most a considerable amount of time to achieve that level, but it might be worthwhile considering that as part of the fun.

 

There will be differences between the Russian and German AAA for sure, just like there are differences between the PzIV and the Sherman. But isn't that part of what makes this such a great SIM? MP game play should be about coordinated team work where the strength of a team does not boil down to who has the Tiger tank. The Devs should be focused on making things as real as possible, and forget about balancing the gun:armor performance for the sake of game play like when a Sherman penetrates a Tiger frontally regardless of the distance. IMO, having the server hosts balance the missions with number and type is the better way to go.

 

Regarding your video, I think it is a perfect example of how effective the GAZ is. You peppered him real good with only a couple of hits, and it looks like he had enough and bugged out. You maybe didn't get any points on the server, but keep at it and you will start racking up the points I am sure.

 

And finally, these are the first collector vehicles to be announced, and there is nothing saying that they will be the last. So it is possible that we see more potent versions of AAA shooters.

 

 

[LukeFF]

Goodness, guys, it's just a big gun mounted on the back of a flatbed truck. ? Just enjoy it for what it is - if you get some kills with it, great! If not, it's not the end of the world. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by LukeFF

[ZachariasX]

6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Goodness, guys, it's just a big gun mounted on the back of a flatbed truck. ? Just enjoy it for what it is - if you get some kills with it, great! If not, it's not the end of the world. 

 

With that, I think you are selling modules like the GAZ much below their value. Same as tanks are not just big guns on tracks, you are supposed to use them in a certain way to complete a mission. Aiming and firing is just a part of that, regardless whether it is the most exciting thing you can do with them or not. In order to fire, you have to get in a good position to do so.

 

While for the time being, there is indeed little to do with the flak trucks. In the end, they are a specific weapon system of theor own. And same as tank can have missions, you can have missions for that.

 

As everyone can find out by him or herself that light AAA is an inherently frustrating affair for the simple reason that all aircraft are out of range and you have nothing to do, unless you place yourself on the target but then you die because targets tend to get bombed. Bottom line is you are dead, and you have been no good to anyone. But this is our AAA lot now for the time being.

 

But this is a game. You are supposed to achieve something besides just shooting. There must be a mission. Let me give you  examples of what would be required to "play AAA defense", not just hsing away pointlessly.

 

The GAZ can be used as a defense for a convoi. You need more than one gun. You need to orchestrate the movements of the AAA trucks and the convoi:

 

For this you require a minimal mission planner. In this mission planner, you must be able to have to both see the assigned convoi and you must be able to place a given number of AAA vehicles along with that convoi and know the destination point(s).

 

You need to have an elevation map of the area. Planning your mission is half the work. (Actually, it is 99% of the work.) It must be an elevation map because you need to know where are favorable places to put up your guns. They should have both a good field of fire, yet they should not be too obvious to aircraft. You can then assign individual positions of the convoi on destination.

 

"Gaming" is on when either the convoi along with the interspersed AAA trucks is attacked or/and when the convoi is at destination, doing what it does. But usually you reach a place where ground troops receive supplys, hence the trucks and materiel remain there for some time. Planes can attack there as well, and then it is when good planning pays off.

 

You have assigned specific places for the guns around that location and with some teamwork you greatly improve your score, as you know where the planes will go to drop their weapons, you can preset your aiming sights.

 

Losses happen and I think it would be a great feature if one could toggle between manning any of the AAA trucks of your unit. This way you can select one that is closest to aircraft and you have something to fire at, instead of just watching the other dudes fire. The range of the gun is so short, the war is taking place mostly outside your range. But if you can switch to the truck that is "over there", you're back in the game.

 

And no, you don't get to be an ace among AAA gunners. You don't even get a score. You can guess why that is like that.

 

But requirements for the game would be:

 

- Simple mission editor to select vehicles and waypoints on a given map. (Yes, you effectively play mission designer here. The mission designer of the whole map has to consider this.)

- Ability to toggle between AAA trucks of your unit

- Communication menu: "Get ready, enemy inbound from XXX", "Pack up and back in the convoi", "Pack up and group at my position", "Proceed to position 1/2/3/... (as defined in ME)"

 

Like this you can create big fat flak traps. They would be great in MP servers. If you can command a convoi of 20 trucks as bait (or take some barges for that), then set up your artillery positions, you can make life very miserable for adventurous aircraft.

 

For the purpose of an MP server, you should be able to spawn place your bait if it is things like barges, but AAA trucks and other trucks should be spawned very close by their intended positions, so one still has some driving to do. But with a dozen AAA trucks, you are in business. As single truck, you are a victim.

 

It comes down to the winning criteria of the AAA gunner being "Was the objective successfully defended or not?" It is not "I shot two!"

 

 

[JG1_Wittmann]

I got the gaz  aa   yesterday, primarily so I could do some testing  on it  vs the  other  AA guns,  specifically the single 20 german, m16-4/50's    and the flakvierling.  

So far,   I have some raw  video needing clipped  of the gaz  and the m16   firing  at identical tgts.  

3AC,   1 ju87,   1  bf110g,  1 ju88.    3 M16's   or gaz trucks.    3 shemans, 1 behind each AA  and 1 single player sherman to view.    The results,  low AI ,   were  the M16's   were able to leave all 3 AC streaming,  or smoking,   but able to continue  to bomb the tanks or the AA truck itself then the tank.    The gaz   took out all 3  AC,  set all 3 on fire, and caused catastrophic  airframe damage.    I'll continue to run some more tests  and post some short vids  when I can.

 

One interesting  thing that has come out of my testing,   is  what seems  to be  a glaring  flaw, mentioned many times before,  of the 30 and 20mm  mine rounds,  underperforming, especially the 30mm.   Now this Gaz  with a couple of hits  demolished all 3 AC,  which is interesting.   To get this level of destruction   I myself can only replicate  what I saw  using an A8    with the twin 30's mounted.    The 30mm mine round   had 6 to 7 times  the  explosive in each round as the 25mm russian round.

Another interesting thing,    the german 20mm mine round  had,    in reality,     30%  more explosive amount per round than the gaz  25mm.    I have never seen this level of destruction from 1 or 2, or 3, or more  20mm hits,      So  the GAZ  may have well  produced another good reason to more accurately  depict the mine rounds, both 20 and 30mm

 

My initial thoughts  on the use of the gun  it seems to be very hard to hit anything not flying directly over you,  and even then  a hit is not guaranteed.   It may well be hindered by some automatic  sight adjusting happening as others have mentioned.   If I was to ever use this  online,  it would be from cover,   probably a shot in the side,  and definitely  not any kind of shot at 1k, or more.  Like hundreds of meters,  500 prob being tops.   rof is just too low  for longer ranges.

[LachenKrieg]

14 minutes ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

I got the gaz  aa   yesterday, primarily so I could do some testing  on it  vs the  other  AA guns,  specifically the single 20 german, m16-4/50's    and the flakvierling.  

So far,   I have some raw  video needing clipped  of the gaz  and the m16   firing  at identical tgts.  

3AC,   1 ju87,   1  bf110g,  1 ju88.    3 M16's   or gaz trucks.    3 shemans, 1 behind each AA  and 1 single player sherman to view.    The results,  low AI ,   were  the M16's   were able to leave all 3 AC streaming,  or smoking,   but able to continue  to bomb the tanks or the AA truck itself then the tank.    The gaz   took out all 3  AC,  set all 3 on fire, and caused catastrophic  airframe damage.    I'll continue to run some more tests  and post some short vids  when I can.

 

One interesting  thing that has come out of my testing,   is  what seems  to be  a glaring  flaw, mentioned many times before,  of the 30 and 20mm  mine rounds,  underperforming, especially the 30mm.   Now this Gaz  with a couple of hits  demolished all 3 AC,  which is interesting.   To get this level of destruction   I myself can only replicate  what I saw  using an A8    with the twin 30's mounted.    The 30mm mine round   had 6 to 7 times  the  explosive in each round as the 25mm russian round.

Another interesting thing,    the german 20mm mine round  had,    in reality,     30%  more explosive amount per round than the gaz  25mm.    I have never seen this level of destruction from 1 or 2, or 3, or more  20mm hits,      So  the GAZ  may have well  produced another good reason to more accurately  depict the mine rounds, both 20 and 30mm

 

My initial thoughts  on the use of the gun  it seems to be very hard to hit anything not flying directly over you,  and even then  a hit is not guaranteed.   It may well be hindered by some automatic  sight adjusting happening as others have mentioned.   If I was to ever use this  online,  it would be from cover,   probably a shot in the side,  and definitely  not any kind of shot at 1k, or more.  Like hundreds of meters,  500 prob being tops.   rof is just too low  for longer ranges.

I myself haven't been spending a lot of time practicing up on my AAA sniping, but TBH, I've been on this forum more then I have been in-game lately. I totally plan on  getting better with the AAA trucks though, and think if you can bring a high AAA skill level to the MP servers, you will be in high demand. I also think that your accepted range will increase as you improve. 1000m should be very doable for someone that has the hang of it. And don't forget, if you stick to the group you are escorting and nothing comes within range, then they are not attacking your group, and that is one way they could lose. 

 

Good luck and have fun.

[LukeFF]

@ZachariasX: my point exactly - players are going to get out of these weapons what people put into them, i.e., mission planning, team coordination, etc. It's really no different than any other MP game that I've played over the years, whether it be Arma, Red Orchestra, etc.

 

At the same time, I've always found it a bit humorous how some people spend so much time writing these mini-dissertations about this or that instead of just enjoying the game/sim for what it is. This isn't a NATO wargaming exercise or a recreation of us defending the approaches to Moscow or Stalingrad. In other words, it's fine to take one's gaming time seriously, but sometimes taking things too seriously takes all the fun out of the experience.

Edited May 25, 2021 by LukeFF

[LachenKrieg]

21 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

@ZachariasX: my point exactly - players are going to get out of these weapons what people put into them, i.e., mission planning, team coordination, etc. It's really no different than any other MP game that I've played over the years, whether it be Arma, Red Orchestra, etc.

 

At the same time, I've always found it a bit humorous how some people spend so much time writing these mini-dissertations about this or that instead of just enjoying the game/sim for what it is. This isn't a NATO wargaming exercise or a recreation of us defending the approaches to Moscow or Stalingrad. In other words, it's fine to take one's gaming time seriously, but sometimes taking things too seriously takes all the fun out of the experience.

I couldn't agree more @LukeFF, the main point here being IL2 is what we do to recreate. And the end result of that is supposed to be to have fun. Personally, I am really glad that I found this community, and thoroughly enjoy the Dev team and this franchise. High quality WWII simulation.

 

But I have to say, the GAZ is more then just a thing of beauty. Aside from the incredible detail that has gone into this project so far, these vehicles require a very high level of skill to get them to work properly. Anyone wanting to prove themselves in a challenge has the perfect opportunity to do it with the AAA trucks. If you think working a tank by yourself is busy, try making it happen in the GAZ. You will have to put the time in to earn your stripes in the GAZ, but I quess if your having fun, that's what counts.

[Monostripezebra]

On 5/25/2021 at 7:17 AM, LukeFF said:

Just enjoy it for what it is - if you get some kills with it, great! If not, it's not the end of the world. 

 

No game is the "end of the world", in the end it is just about fun.. but the right balancing and gameplay mechanics are tools for creating fun, so where is the harm in reporting issues like that AAA side tank gameplay still has some clunkyness that could be smoothed? Is that the end of the world for you?

 

 

On 5/25/2021 at 11:55 PM, LukeFF said:

 

 

At the same time, I've always found it a bit humorous how some people spend so much time writing these mini-dissertations about this or that instead of just enjoying the game/sim for what it is. (..)

 

In other words, it's fine to take one's gaming time seriously, but sometimes taking things too seriously takes all the fun out of the experience.

 

I´ve certainly spent more time playing and testing the GAZ.. singleplayer, online in quick action servers as well as in more time consuming slower paced ones... and you are the FIRST to ever accuse me of taking the game to serious, normally I get the opposite complaints..

 

 

So just out of curiosity, Luke, how much time have you actually tried to have fun in the GAZ online or offline.. so as for fun or as tester? And what are your experiences in it? I don´t think I have ever seen you online, ever...  and I wonder a bit if you actually talk about yourself when you say playing more the forum game then the game itself takes the fun out of things, but what do I know, I mean, I got numerically barely 10% (if the number under the profile pic left on each post is to be believed) of your forum post count on mine... So I really wish you find the time to actually more enjoy playing the game game, then off course you´ll see I am right in the forum game as much as I am bad in the game game, as always ;=P

 

that was just jokingly.. so really, how do you fare in it and what things you use to make it work for you, I mean we all agree that the GAZ is super nice and fun quality wise.. but getting it to work as AA is not easy, so please, lets get back to that side: how to make that thing work better in its "true" job?

Edited May 27, 2021 by Monostripezebra

[LachenKrieg]

Love the videos, especially the one you left in the "Screenshots and Videos" forum. Definitely a lighter side to the GAZ.

[ZachariasX]

12 hours ago, LukeFF said:

@ZachariasX: my point exactly - players are going to get out of these weapons what people put into them, i.e., mission planning, team coordination, etc. It's really no different than any other MP game that I've played over the years, whether it be Arma, Red Orchestra, etc.

 

At the same time, I've always found it a bit humorous how some people spend so much time writing these mini-dissertations about this or that instead of just enjoying the game/sim for what it is. This isn't a NATO wargaming exercise or a recreation of us defending the approaches to Moscow or Stalingrad. In other words, it's fine to take one's gaming time seriously, but sometimes taking things too seriously takes all the fun out of the experience.

I don't really mind detailed exposés as long as people are good in describing their points. I think we are good here. And in case of the GAZ I think it is really beneficial, because much of the use you can have from this toy is not trivial to grasp. If you decide to pack up your AAA gun and go hunting aircraft, then you are just one thing very dead very soon.

 

I have asked for official rules of procedures as in real life, you can make even much less of these toys and you do so at much greater expense. If you are aware of how the weapon is used, then you have an idea on how to best use it in game. The fact that we have a much different environment in the game than we have in real life certainly alters useful protocols to some extent. We see that how planes are used and what kind of planes are popular and what "famous" plane is not popular.

 

The GAZ would need very little added gaming controls, only such as they are present in most 3D shooters since more then one decade. But If you have no idea how such weapons were used to effect, you cannot make use of it in a meaningful way. Just think of what gameplay in TC coul be like if you could bring along your air defense. It is stupid playing TC with all these aircraft available in game and not include them in your missions. But then you'd need the GAZ etc. You'd need to be able to plan your advance, how you'd need to setup your defense perimeter and cover those, etc. This is helluva grand game. Right now, TC is playing CS:GO in 1/128th speed. It is daft "just ading a verhicle" when you don't expand the scope of the game.

 

When talking about what the game could be, then detailed writeups can be very illuminating.

 

The GAZ is a fantastic addon, and I think the whole game series will benefit tremendously from it. It is indeed a big step toward a combined arms simulation.

[LukeFF]

10 hours ago, Monostripezebra said:

So just out of curiosity, Luke, how much time have you actually tried to have fun in the GAZ online or offline.. so as for fun or as tester? I don´t think I have ever seen you online, ever...  and I wonder a bit if you actually talk about yourself when you say playing more the forum game then the game itself takes the fun out of things, but what do I know, I mean, I got numerically barely 10% (if the number under the profile pic left on each post is to be believed) of your forum post count on mine... So I really wish you find the time to actually more enjoy playing the game game, then off course you´ll see I am right in the forum game as much as I am bad in the game game, as always ;=P

 

Not that anyone cares, but I typically devote 3 or 4 nights a week to playing IL2, which is outside of the time I commit to beta testing, researching and writing documentation for the game, helping out certain forum members with instructional videos, etc. - oh, and I also beta test for an entirely different game title as well.

 

And with that, I'm done with this ridiculous conversation.

[Monostripezebra]

4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Not that anyone cares, but I typically devote 3 or 4 nights a week to playing IL2, which is outside of the time I commit to beta testing, researching and writing documentation for the game, helping out certain forum members with instructional videos, etc. - oh, and I also beta test for an entirely different game title as well.

 

And with that, I'm done with this ridiculous conversation.

 

Hey man, no hard feelings.. but I think you mistook me there. I am not looking for any justifications on what you you do with your time.. or how involved in gaming you are..  I was just specifically asking about the GAZ. And your experience in it. And while I sincerely hope you enjoy as much gametime as you get.. my interest was sincerely only the GAZ.

 

Because that was kind of the question here:

On 5/17/2021 at 3:55 AM, Monostripezebra said:

how do you fare and what are ways to make it work better?

 

like, how to perform better in it.. tips and tricks to make it more fun in an multiplayer environment. You know something substanical and helpfull for those who want to play the GAZ beyond just re-iterating the requiem tutorial link. And when you say I spend too much time writing forum and not enough enjoying playing, I thought maybe you could contribute on that topic rather from your game experience which probably is more interesting then what you think my forum-to-ingame-time ration is. That is, if you have any experience in it.

 

I just don´t think "Just enjoy it for what it is" is a technically overly helpfull advice. Thats why I was asking if there is maybe anything more on-topic technical help?

Edited May 27, 2021 by Monostripezebra

[Monostripezebra]

I can now say I have extensively tested the GAZ online.. and still think the way the auto-manual settings are linked is a major usability obstacle:

 

To quote Requiems tutorial vid  "If ASPECT is inaccurate, your shooting will be too!"

 

so out of a triplet of 3 values, the most important one is always automated.. but in a wrong way: it assumes the aircraft turns when you turn the gun...and it changes every gun movement, making the sight in quick combat useless, because to reset that back to 0, you can only reset ALL values. and it can never be switched off.

 

Experienced aircraft players know about the piñata-esque GAZ physique and WILL charge you frontally down your throat (ie 30min setting) but when you re-set the gunsight to that, your distance setting, the important one is gone, too.

 

In reality, it seems that dial is disconnectable via a footpedal, at least that is how the re-set is animated in our GAZ.. so the GAZ would definately benefit from beeing able to pedal "aspect auto mode" off..

 

It really is painfully useless as single vehicle in MP and while it is fun, to have a 3 GAZ battery, that is at least somewhat of a minor nuisance.. it means essentially 3 players are doing mostly nothing for most of the time, which in a time-limited server environment is kinda an automatic contribution to the other sides progress.

 

It is however pretty effective in urban environments against early (non-heavy) german tanks and with roads can be used as tank destroyer somewhat..