German bombsights off?

[Primus_71 26]

Hey all,

 

I decided to go back to playing CLoD:Blitz+Tobruk, and tried my hands on some level bombing with the German bombers. I'm an old veteran of the series since the original IL2, and familiar with operating the Lotfe sight. In IL1946, I can drop my load with laser precision, but in CLoD, I tried both the JU88 series and HE111 series and in every case, bombs fall around 150 meters short on a run at 3000 meters, or a little less at lower altitude. This is with zero wind, mind you. The sight seems to be calibrated (produces an unchanging picture) for a speed of around 15% higher than actual TAS. 

 

I watched the HE111 tutorial video by Nada Sero, and his procedure is even more confusing: at 5000 meters, he dials in the IAS (not TAS) and ASL and his bombs hit at the lotfe's focus point, which is crazy.  I'm not sure if he's using vanilla CLoD or the Blitz version, though. Anyhow.  

 

So what am I missing here? Can someone please direct me to accurate and up-to-date information as to the current status of bombsight mechanization on Blitz and Tobruk? 

 

Thanks. 

 

Edit: I managed to upload a video of the issue. The following is a bomb run at zero wind, 3150ASL, 260IAS, dropping a single SD250 at Lympne. With a perfectly (almost) stable bombsight view, the bomb hits ~150 meters short.

 

 

Edited April 3 by Primus_71

[Primus_71 26]

After testing some more, my observations suggest that the bombsight is visually calibrated for TAS, i.e. you have stabilized view at TAS for a given altitude, BUT the bomb freefall trajectory is at IAS, meaning, when you have perfect solution with the bombsight on target (stabilized view), your bombs will always fall short. Game breaker for level bombing fans, really.

 

Back to BoX for me then.  

 

 

[Varrattu 22]

Hello Primus_71,

 

I refer to the tutorial <CloD He-111 Bombardierung Teil2-Bombenwurf.wmv> by NadaSero.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjKzsuDPuoM

Thanks to NadaSero!

 

In that tutorial NadaSero starts the bomb attack at about 2800m AMSL with 310km/h "Fahrt" = indicated Speed

The Lotfe7-C he sets to  2700m "Visierhöhe" 340km/h "Visiergeschwindigkeit". Last but not least he does  some small adjustments in  "bombsight mode".

Et voilà.

 

~V~

 

Enclosed please find a coresponding table from LDv. 8.5 - Bombenwurf (1940).

 

 

[Varrattu 22]

PS:

Indeed not every Pilot was qaulified for that job. Bomber training was more demanding and took longer than for fighter pilots....

 

Here

       https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/utils/lotfe7.html

you find a nice little helper.

 

Edited April 2 by Varrattu

[Primus_71 26]

When was the last time you tried using the lotfe sight? How about trying a level bombing run at 3000 m on a blue bomber and sharing a video of your results, if not so much trouble?  I'd be interested to see where your bombs fall when dropped at stabilized view.

 

Edit: Actually, browsing through the ATAG forums, I came across a post by ATAG_NakedSquirrel, which confirms my observation: 

"Bombsight: Once you're in the bomb sight simply input your IAS (Indicated air speed) and your altitude. Adjust the plane so that the bombsight is on target The bombsight will mark where the last bomb in your string is going to hit, so you want to aim slightly behind your target. You will generally want to drop your entire payload, so set your series to maximum, also you will generally want to set your distribution to 0 meter when you are flying above 3000m. The bombs have enough spread as it is, you do not need to spread them out any further. Arm your bombs, open the bomb bay, and enable bombsight automation. Unfortunately the automation is not in sync yet, so you will constantly have to lower the bombsight to keep the bombsight on target."

 

So, thank you for sharing those links. They were interesting, although irrelevant to the issue I'm describing. 

Edited April 2 by Primus_71

[[Pb]Cybermat47 1646]

2 hours ago, Primus_71 said:

After testing some more, my observations suggest that the bombsight is visually calibrated for TAS, i.e. you have stabilized view at TAS for a given altitude, BUT the bomb freefall trajectory is at IAS, meaning, when you have perfect solution with the bombsight on target (stabilized view), your bombs will always fall short. Game breaker for level bombing fans, really.

 

Back to BoX for me then.  

 

 

Interesting, I’ll let the rest of the team know about this and see if we can get a fix out.

[343KKT_Kintaro 408]

This Monday evening I flew with seven of my French-speaking friends in the DangerDogz BoB server. We were forming two flights, I was one of the escort fighter pilots: four 109s escorting four He 111s. The bombers' target was a fleet of freight ships at anchor at Dover's harbour.

 

I witnessed all of this in altitude. OBT~Mikmak was leading the He 111s and dropped his bombs over the ships. The three other He 111s immediately did the same. Three British ships sank with all hands. That was a successful bombing.

 

I see no problem with the high level bombing in this simulator, I only need to learn to do it myself!

 

 

[Primus_71 26]

1 hour ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

Interesting, I’ll let the rest of the team know about this and see if we can get a fix out.

Thank you👍

[Varrattu 22]

Hello,

with a view to TrueSky please have in mind that the Lotfe 7c neither needs IAS nor TAS.

 

All about is ground speed. Meaning the values for "Seitentriftwinkel" and "Rücktrifft (R%-Wert)" are also important.

 

~V~

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2 by Varrattu

[Plurp 95]

17 hours ago, Primus_71 said:

Hey all,

 

I decided to go back to playing CLoD:Blitz+Tobruk, and tried my hands on some level bombing with the German bombers. I'm an old veteran of the series since the original IL2, and familiar with operating the Lotfe sight. In IL1946, I can drop my load with laser precision, but in CLoD, I tried both the JU88 series and HE111 series and in every case, bombs fall around 150 meters short on a run at 3000 meters, or a little less at lower altitude. This is with zero wind, mind you. The sight seems to be calibrated (produces an unchanging picture) for a speed of around 15% higher than actual TAS. 

 

I watched the HE111 tutorial video by Nada Sero, and his procedure is even more confusing: at 5000 meters, he dials in the IAS (not TAS) and ASL and his bombs hit at the lotfe's focus point, which is crazy.  I'm not sure if he's using vanilla CLoD or the Blitz version, though. Anyhow.  

 

So what am I missing here? Can someone please direct me to accurate and up-to-date information as to the current status of bombsight mechanization on Blitz and Tobruk? 

 

Thanks. 

Just did some tests with the 88 a1 @ 3000 meters.  IAS was 320 and bombsight airspeed was 370 to keep the crosshairs on target.  4 250s and 28 50s set on salvo, hit with 1/4 beyond the crosshairs and 3/4 short of the crosshairs.  For me, the same place they have always landed.  (Just dropping the 250s or 500s, it will be off target)

 

111 H2:  8 x 250s with spread of 20 m (works great for all altitudes)  IAS of 290 and bombsight speed of 340-350 to keep it centered.  The furthest bomb hit at the crosshairs.  For me, the same place they have always landed.  (For the 32 50 kg bombs, I use a 24 m spacing with good results)

[Varrattu 22]

Hello,

 

because one of the most important factors is speed, allow me a few words concerning iL2CoD airspeed and German speed indicators ...

 

Meanwhile all of us learned that airspeed is not what it looks like. Even in iL2Cod and / or iL2DWT. The good news:

 

Fortunately in our iL2 world we still "fly" under -allow me the wording- laboratory conditions. What do I mean? iL2CoD calculates an atmosphere that we kow as "International Standard Atmosphere" == "ISA". So it is quiet easy to handle because airspeed and airspeed indicators are calibrated under ISA conditions.

 

When the iL2CoD Heinkel 111 moves through the ISA air mass, the German airspeed indicator shows us the airspeed corrected for position errors. I understand the shown speed as "Calibrated Air Speed" == "CAS".

 

Assuming the iL2CoD "True Air Speed" or "TAS" is the airspeed corrected for all mechanical, position,compressibility) and density errors this is the speed we are allowed to use when calculating ground speed for bombing ... And only when there is no wind at all, "GS" equals "TAS".

 

We may have a look on "TAS" via

< aircraft.getParameter(part.ParameterTypes.Z_VelocityTAS, int subtype) >

where

int subtype [-1] returns the time (as scalar quantity in m/s) at which the aircraft is currently moving along a certain path.

 

Within the next 24 hours I will provide a little iL2CoD single player mission, that all of you may use for further testing.

 

~V~

 

 

 

 

Edited April 3 by Varrattu

[OBT-Mikmak 552]

On 4/2/2021 at 4:16 PM, Primus_71 said:

Back to BoX for me then. 

 

Not necessarily.

 

I suggest you to start learning how to use Lotfe bomb sight (without wind in a first step):

1. For a precise bombing run, you need to know the target altitude from sea level and subtract it to your ASL.

2. Tune the sight altitude according to this altitude difference (plane ASL - target alt).

3. Tune the sight speed approximativelly to the plane indicated air speed IAS

4. When your bombsight cross is aligned with the target, turn on bombsight automatic mode.

5. Adjust the sight speed to have a stable cross on the target (up/down).

6. Open bay doors

7. Arm bombs

8. Enjoy the German precision...

 

You can come back to CloD then...

 

Yes, you can hit precisely but it is not laser precision sorry, laser guided bombs comes later in history... 😉

 

P.S. I can hit a fix cargo ship from 5000 m

Edited April 4 by OBT-Mikmak

[Primus_71 26]

14 hours ago, Plurp said:

Just did some tests with the 88 a1 @ 3000 meters.  IAS was 320 and bombsight airspeed was 370 to keep the crosshairs on target.  4 250s and 28 50s set on salvo, hit with 1/4 beyond the crosshairs and 3/4 short of the crosshairs.  For me, the same place they have always landed.  (Just dropping the 250s or 500s, it will be off target)

 

111 H2:  8 x 250s with spread of 20 m (works great for all altitudes)  IAS of 290 and bombsight speed of 340-350 to keep it centered.  The furthest bomb hit at the crosshairs.  For me, the same place they have always landed.  (For the 32 50 kg bombs, I use a 24 m spacing with good results)

Thank you for taking the time to test. I always use a spacing of 0 m, series, infinite. Perhaps my bomb settings are the culprit? I'll retrace your steps to see how I fare. 

3 hours ago, OBT-Mikmak said:

I suggest you to start learning how to use Lotfe bomb sight

🙄

[Primus_71 26]

@Plurp Can you watch and comment on this track file? I was gonna do a video but I cannot remember how to on youtube, sorry. 

HE111, SD250, single drop (to rule out spacing issues), 3100ASL, 260IAS, zero wind, perfectly stable bombsight picture, bomb hits ~150 m short of the targeted point. 

I'd be happy to hear if you notice any errors in my procedure. 

 

Thank you. 

 

 

Edit: Here's a video of my bomb run:

 

 

he111_3.rar

Edited April 3 by Primus_71

[Plurp 95]

46 minutes ago, Primus_71 said:

@Plurp Can you watch and comment on this track file? I was gonna do a video but I cannot remember how to on youtube, sorry. 

HE111, SD250, single drop (to rule out spacing issues), 3100ASL, 260IAS, zero wind, perfectly stable bombsight picture, bomb hits ~150 m short of the targeted point. 

I'd be happy to hear if you notice any errors in my procedure. 

 

Thank you. 

 

 

Edit: Here's a video of my bombrun:

 

 

he111_3.rar 331.41 kB · 1 download

Got the same result as you.  The 111 at `3k and below has been off hence the 20m spread.  I ran out of time to test more, but I will later tonight. 

 

Things to try are:  drop at least 2 or more if from 3k to get the spread involved.  Try from 5k and single drop (more accurate from up there)

 

Some side notes:  I have always used the sc bombs, sd are fragmentation bombs i believe.  If dropping less then the total number of bombs, you need to turn off bombsight auto as soon as your bombs drop as it will drop again when the bombsight reaches 0 degrees.

[Plurp 95]

11 hours ago, Primus_71 said:

@Plurp Can you watch and comment on this track file? I was gonna do a video but I cannot remember how to on youtube, sorry. 

HE111, SD250, single drop (to rule out spacing issues), 3100ASL, 260IAS, zero wind, perfectly stable bombsight picture, bomb hits ~150 m short of the targeted point. 

I'd be happy to hear if you notice any errors in my procedure. 

 

Thank you. 

 

 

Edit: Here's a video of my bomb run:

 

 

he111_3.rar 331.41 kB · 1 download

I tested some more.  Dropped 2 then 4 bombs at 3k and still fell short.  So from 3k I would only drop all 8 with a 20 meter spread for this method to work.  

 

From 5k, dropping 1 bomb, it fell short, but dropping 4 at a time hit where expected.

Edited April 4 by Plurp

[OBT-Mikmak 552]

16 hours ago, Primus_71 said:

I'd be happy to hear if you notice any errors in my procedure. 

 

Thank you.

 

First error : you didn't take into account the target altitude, Lympne altitude is 100 m from sea level, so if your altitude (ASL) is 3100 m then you have to set 3000 m in the bomb sight.

Second error: before automatic bomb drop, you continuously change bomb sight altitude instead of correcting bomb sight speed (point 5 of my previous post where the bomb sight altitude should stay fix).

Third error: thinking that you will get a laser precision with only one bomb... it is a WW2 bombing technology not a modern laser guided bomb.

[Varrattu 22]

Hello,

enclosed please find the announced little Single-Player-TestMission...

 

 

You spawn in a HE111 at about 3000AMSL 20km away from your target Hawkinge. Hawkinge ARP is marked with a red cross. Try to get your bombs as close as possible to that cross. The HUD shows true heading (TH) to target , distance / deviation (meter) to target, height above target and the plane's current groundspeed. Under Server-Info you get a report how precise your bombs exploded...

 

Good luck.

 

~V~

 

Edit 2021-04-07: enclosed please find an updated HE111-TestMission

 

 

HE111-TestMission.zip

Edited April 7 by Varrattu
HE111-TestMission Patch no.1 released

[Primus_71 26]

20 hours ago, OBT-Mikmak said:

 

First error : you didn't take into account the target altitude, Lympne altitude is 100 m from sea level, so if your altitude (ASL) is 3100 m then you have to set 3000 m in the bomb sight.

Second error: before automatic bomb drop, you continuously change bomb sight altitude instead of correcting bomb sight speed (point 5 of my previous post where the bomb sight altitude should stay fix).

Third error: thinking that you will get a laser precision with only one bomb... it is a WW2 bombing technology not a modern laser guided bomb.

Let me spell it out for you: when you have a stable picture under the crosshair, precise agl/ground speed entry is, or at least should be, irrelevant. That is the idea behind the automated bombsight: since you cannot know for sure the ground speed, the stable view aids the bombardier in getting a fix. And it is not working in CloD.  

 

For greater clarity for the cognitively-challenged: this post is not about the degree of precision of ww2 bombing tech, and how accurately it is modelled in the game. This post is about pointing out a gameplay mechanic which is not functioning as it should.    

 

On 4/4/2021 at 6:25 AM, Plurp said:

I tested some more.  Dropped 2 then 4 bombs at 3k and still fell short.  So from 3k I would only drop all 8 with a 20 meter spread for this method to work.  

 

From 5k, dropping 1 bomb, it fell short, but dropping 4 at a time hit where expected.

According to the manual, the center-point of the string of bombs should coincide with the point under the crosshair, and obviously this is not the case. I think TF needs to look at this. 

 

Thank you for testing and confirming my finding. ~S~

[Sokol1 2106]

On 4/2/2021 at 5:49 AM, Primus_71 said:

 IL1946,

 

Despite have more "leftover" of 1946 than desirable, CloD don't use the same exactly the same bombsight mechanics.

CloD use their own unfinished*, non well tuned (like most aspect of the game) mechanic's, why people that dominate their bombsight's use different technic's, and hit target.

 

If you look in the Russian section of ATAG forum will see the recipe of an  guy that hit the target consistently, and he don't consider target elevation, because he affirm that this is not modeled in game - that discuss this matter was censored in CloD section of (Russian) Sukhoi forum at CloD released. 

 

Quote

BoX

 

As stated before the level bombing implemented in this game, their goal is not make a "bombsight simulator" but simulate level bomb in a friendly way for new, casual gamer's.  

 

So, all is wrong and wright.  

 

* They loose time modeling Blenheim bombsight in 3D, but not program for work like the real, e.g. the wind triangle device at base o bombsight was modeled just as repeater of cockpit compass, way of of real thing. 

[Primus_71 26]

Edit: Nevermind, I misread your post....

Edited April 6 by Primus_71

[Varrattu 22]

Hello all,

today I released an updated mission: HE111-TestMission.zip

 

Calculations / recommendations based on D.(Luft)5205 - Leitfaden Lotfe 7C/D

 

*** Distance to target (Hawkinge) extended

*** Height above target computation reviewed

*** modified HUD

 

                       HE111                   Lotfe7c                      Lotfe7c
                           |                            |                                 |
     [TC: 270°] 265   [H: 2654m] 850   [Vg: 300km/h] 150   [Dev: 25456m]
               |                           |                             |
               |           < recommended values >      |

 

where TC = true course
             H = true height above target in meter [m]
           Vg = ground speed in kilometer per hour [km/h]

 

~V~

 

 

Edited April 7 by Varrattu