Changes and tweaks to career mode

[csThor]

By the time of the air bridge there was little left of II./SchG 1 and they were as far back as Rostov (and outside the map). It wasn't before the Kuban battles in spring/summer 1943 that the Hs 129 really switched to anti-tank ops (with the exception of 13.(Pz)/JG 51 but they operated at Rzhev before being deployed to Millerovo to bolster II./SchG 1 for a while in December 1942).

Edited February 13, 2022 by csThor

[Alexmarine]

17 hours ago, csThor said:

The document Eisenfaustus linked in his January 19 post is a goldmine with regards to how the Luftwaffe conceptualized the employment of Schlachtflieger and what kind of targets they're supposed to attack, where to operate and how to attack (pages 45 to 52 of the document). 

 

I tried to check it out but my german isn't really good (should try to scan it with Google)... Anything about favoured bomb load for target type?

 

Also, MG151/20 and 30mm cannons only for the Kuban career time frame? Wouldn't mind it along a better mission rotation as from the documents showed by Thor and Yogi

[csThor]

Nope, sine bomb types are always a question of what's available. In general SC and SD types from 10 to 250 kg were the bread & butter types, 500 kg were much rarer. 

 

Even for bombers and D-model Stukas anything above 500kg bombs were considered "special" and were used only when really needed and/or ordered by the Fliegerkorps or the Luftflotte.

[Yogiflight]

38 minutes ago, csThor said:

By the time of the air bridge there was little left of II./SchG 1 and they were as far back as Rostov (and outside the map). It wasn't before the Kuban battles in spring/summer 1943 that the Hs 129 really switched to anti-tank ops (with the exception of 13.(Pz)/JG 51 but they operated at Rzhev before being deployed to Millerovo to bolster II./SchG 1 for a while in December 1942).

Ok, I understand. I was only going after what the game gives. The history of the 4./SchG 1 tells it was there until end of december. But if this was not the case, then I am with you, that the MK 101 should be introduced with BOK.

[Alexmarine]

31 minutes ago, csThor said:

Nope, sine bomb types are always a question of what's available. In general SC and SD types from 10 to 250 kg were the bread & butter types, 500 kg were much rarer. 

 

Even for bombers and D-model Stukas anything above 500kg bombs were considered "special" and were used only when really needed and/or ordered by the Fliegerkorps or the Luftflotte.

 

I exactly wanted to know how common was the 250+wing small bombs (or Small bombs+ wing small bombs) compared to the single 500kg load and if it was some type of target on which the single big bomb was preferred.  But I guess it's too situation dependent ?

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, Alexmarine said:

 

I exactly wanted to know how common was the 250+wing small bombs (or Small bombs+ wing small bombs) compared to the single 500kg load and if it was some type of target on which the single big bomb was preferred.  But I guess it's too situation dependent ?

For which aircraft?

[Alexmarine]

5 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

For which aircraft?

 

SG's FW190Fs (F3/F8)

[csThor]

For the Fw 190s the medium centerline bomb (of various types, there were a lot more than just an SC 250 - think AB 250 with different submunitions) plus the four smaller bombs under the wings was pretty common, far more common than a single 500 kg bomb. Remember the Schlachtflieger were supposed to target the forces of the enemy than the infrastructure the enemy used to fight the war (that, conceptually, was the job of the bombers in Luftwaffe thinking). That's also why the Fw 190s used the AB and submunition loadouts so often after they became available - they allowed for greater coverage and required less precision.

 

Edit: Except over Kuban. In the "Steel Birds" campaign BlackSix has limited the player to the centerline rack as the wing-rack modification was not yet available at this time (it came to the front with Kursk).

Edited February 13, 2022 by csThor

[LukeFF]

8 hours ago, csThor said:

Personally, given the limitations of the game and the ground objects we have, artillery should rank highest followed by frontlines and then columns. Personally I'd rather see the "attack armor column" and "attack vehicle column" removed entirely and replaced by either "Armed recon" or "Traffic interdiction" with different briefings and without mentioning what the player will encounter. It was rare for the Schlachtflieger to know exactly what to expect traffic-wise. They were mostly told to attack enemy movements on the roads between A and B and be done with it.

 

Secondly I think river crossings and railway junctions aren't exactly the Hs 129 would attack since both usually entailed serious AA defenses and the Henschels were told to avoid those. Those make a lot more sense for Bf 109 Es and Fw 190s (and the allied ground-pounders later on).

 

Ok, I'll eliminate the river crossing and railway junction attack missions.

 

As for armed recon - yes, this is the mission type for which I'm most eagerly awaiting (it's listed in the mission editor). Not only would it work here, but also of course for Allied fighter-bomber careers it's an absolutely essential mission type to have. Anyways, as it stands right now, armor column and vehicle column attack missions are a stand-in until armed recon missions are finally added.

[csThor]

Yes and no. Armed recon for Schlachtflieger was a specified mission type to be flown by small groups at first light every day of ops (if tactical recon was unavailable). The more common and IMO more important mission type would be "Traffic interdiction" since that can contain vehicles on roads (including armored formations), trains and even ships on rivers and canals. The mission would specify an area in between two geographic points (how large depends on the type of aircraft and the timeframe) and then have the flight "patrol" it for enemy ground movements. The mission goal would be about establishing a "presence" over the specified area for a certain time with destroyed vehicles/tanks/trains/barges as a secondary thing in the mission logic.

 

One could call it armed recon, of course (I think it would fit Allied terminology this way), but as I said the Luftwaffe specified exactly what "Armed Recon" was supposed to be (and when it was to be flown).

 

EDIT: Just realized that this mission type would also be essential for the coming Ju 88 C-6 on the Eastern Front since this "traffic interdiction" (focused on railways) was its primary job within the Eisenbahnstaffeln of the KGs.

Edited February 13, 2022 by csThor

[Alexmarine]

2 hours ago, csThor said:

For the Fw 190s the medium centerline bomb (of various types, there were a lot more than just an SC 250 - think AB 250 with different submunitions) plus the four smaller bombs under the wings was pretty common, far more common than a single 500 kg bomb. Remember the Schlachtflieger were supposed to target the forces of the enemy than the infrastructure the enemy used to fight the war (that, conceptually, was the job of the bombers in Luftwaffe thinking). That's also why the Fw 190s used the AB and submunition loadouts so often after they became available - they allowed for greater coverage and required less precision.

 

Edit: Except over Kuban. In the "Steel Birds" campaign BlackSix has limited the player to the centerline rack as the wing-rack modification was not yet available at this time (it came to the front with Kursk).

 

Of course I wasn't referring to the AB bombs given that we still don't have them in game atm.

 

Tbf, the rationale for just a single 500kg bombs in my mind was more for the limited time they had over target to avoid strong AA or enemy fighters cover (especially towards the war end) than for demolition purposes: so get in, drop a single bomb (though I see usually the AB500 as a single bomb load more than the SC500) and get out ASAP. 

This would also make sense in the more heavier use of cluster bombs towards the war end as they are a weapon that fit well with single passes thanks to bomblets saturation of a targeted area...

 

In any case, I hope @LukeFF is still annoying the devs with asking for AB-cluster bombs now and then 

[Eisenfaustus]

19 minutes ago, Alexmarine said:

 

Of course I wasn't referring to the AB bombs given that we still don't have them in game atm.

 

Tbf, the rationale for just a single 500kg bombs in my mind was more for the limited time they had over target to avoid strong AA or enemy fighters cover (especially towards the war end) than for demolition purposes: so get in, drop a single bomb (though I see usually the AB500 as a single bomb load more than the SC500) and get out ASAP. 

This would also make sense in the more heavier use of cluster bombs towards the war end as they are a weapon that fit well with single passes thanks to bomblets saturation of a targeted area...

 

In any case, I hope @LukeFF is still annoying the devs with asking for AB-cluster bombs now and then 

Did Fw 190s with 1x250 and 4x50 payload do several bomb runs? Stukas with the same payload seem to have thrown everything at once - so maybe Schlachtflieger did the same and additional attack runs were guns only?

[Alexmarine]

16 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Did Fw 190s with 1x250 and 4x50 payload do several bomb runs? Stukas with the same payload seem to have thrown everything at once - so maybe Schlachtflieger did the same and additional attack runs were guns only?

 

But, at least in game, we can't drop everything at once with neither plane. We need at least 2 or 3 presses which is enough delay to miss with the last bombs released (with the Stuka is even worse given that as soon as you give the first press the autorecovery system will kick in, meaning that the following bombs will get way off your original aim point)

 

This reminds me that we still miss an emergency release command on planes that had one...

Edited February 13, 2022 by Alexmarine

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Alexmarine said:

But, at least in game, we can't drop everything at once with neither plane. We need at least 2 or 3 presses which is enough delay to miss with the last bombs released (with the Stuka is even worse given that as soon as you give the first press the autorecovery system will kick in, meaning that the following bombs will get way off your original aim point)

 

You can drop all bombs at once with the 190 F-8 / G-8 modification.

 

2 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Did Fw 190s with 1x250 and 4x50 payload do several bomb runs? Stukas with the same payload seem to have thrown everything at once - so maybe Schlachtflieger did the same and additional attack runs were guns only?

 

At least in III./KG 51 / NSGr. 20, they would make multiple passes at the target.

5 hours ago, csThor said:

Yes and no. Armed recon for Schlachtflieger was a specified mission type to be flown by small groups at first light every day of ops (if tactical recon was unavailable). The more common and IMO more important mission type would be "Traffic interdiction" since that can contain vehicles on roads (including armored formations), trains and even ships on rivers and canals. The mission would specify an area in between two geographic points (how large depends on the type of aircraft and the timeframe) and then have the flight "patrol" it for enemy ground movements. The mission goal would be about establishing a "presence" over the specified area for a certain time with destroyed vehicles/tanks/trains/barges as a secondary thing in the mission logic.

 

One could call it armed recon, of course (I think it would fit Allied terminology this way), but as I said the Luftwaffe specified exactly what "Armed Recon" was supposed to be (and when it was to be flown).

 

EDIT: Just realized that this mission type would also be essential for the coming Ju 88 C-6 on the Eastern Front since this "traffic interdiction" (focused on railways) was its primary job within the Eisenbahnstaffeln of the KGs.

 

Got it. Well, for now, this is the next best thing. ? Whenever armed recon / interdiction missions are added, it's an easy update to the files. It's definitely a mission type that can be used by pretty much all countries in career mode, in one form or another. 

[Alexmarine]

13 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

You can drop all bombs at once with the 190 F-8 / G-8 modification.

 

You mean centerline+wing (both pairs)? All together? Guess I kinda messed up my controls somewhere... I will get it another look (btw, same for the Stuka and the A5 modification or nothing on that front?)

 

13 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

At least in III./KG 51 / NSGr. 20, they would make multiple passes at the target.

 

Wouldn't have expected the night attack units to do multiple passes... Guess that even in spite of increasing night fighter presence on the continent it was safe enough to get more time on target than daylight operations...

Edited February 13, 2022 by Alexmarine

[LukeFF]

Oh, one other thing: I completed my exhaustive research of Jan Horn's book on KG 51, which included compiling a list of all missions flown by the 3 units during the Normandy and Rhineland career mode phases. The result in the next update should be an entirely overhauled mission set and updated airfield assignments (now based on the movement of particular Staffeln, in particular 3./KG 51 and 6./KG 51 for I. and II. Gruppe (which will extend to Normandy for I./KG 51. 

1 minute ago, Alexmarine said:

You mean centerline+wing (both pairs)? All together? Guess I kinda messed up my controls somewhere... I will get it another look (btw, same for the Stuka and the A5 modification or nothing on that front?)

 

Stuka and the A-5 I don't think so, but for the F-8 and G-8, yes. It's the bomb release mode command (drop single, drop all, or drop all with a short delay between each bomb release). 

4 minutes ago, Alexmarine said:

Wouldn't have expected the night attack units to do multiple passes... Guess that even in spite of increasing night fighter presence on the continent it was safe enough to get more time on target than daylight operations...

 

Yes, on rare occasions the flak coverage was light, so in those occasions they would make multiple passes. Often, that last pass was a strafing run on AAA. 

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, Alexmarine said:

Tbf, the rationale for just a single 500kg bombs in my mind was more for the limited time they had over target to avoid strong AA or enemy fighters cover (especially towards the war end) than for demolition purposes: so get in, drop a single bomb (though I see usually the AB500 as a single bomb load more than the SC500) and get out ASAP. 

In the document Eisenfaustus posted it is said, that Schlachtflieger were to fly escort themselves, with one flight attacking the target and the other flight covering them. After the first flight dropped its bombs, it took over the escort role, while the second flight attacked the target.

Another interesting thing was that Bf 110s usually didn't have a fighter escort, except they attacked targets, more than 30km behind the frontline.

 

 

[LukeFF]

Here's an interesting one - 4 passes on the target! Of course, apparently flak was nonexistent, but this wasn't the only time this happened:

 

Against targets in the Deurne incursion area, 22.3 km east-northeast of Eindhoven, fighter-bombers of III./KG 51 [on 28 October 1944] are again ordered in. With one AB 500/SD 1 drop canister under each fuselage and two SD 50 demolition bombs and two C 50 incendiary bombs under each wing, they take off at 17:56 with Fhr. Schulte-Vennbur in “Red 7” and Fhr. Maahs in "Red 1" from Hangelar. Since no anti-aircraft defenses are detected above the target, the FW 190s attack the targets in a glide attack from 500- to 1000-m altitude. AB 500/SD 1s are dropped on the first approach, followed by 50-kg bouncing bombs on the second approach. The pilots can observe the detonations. On the third attack, the incendiary bombs are dropped and a fourth time the fighter-bombers attack the targets with aircraft weapons. At about 18:51, the German planes land again at Hangelar.

 

Another one, that occurred very shortly after the above mission - this time with flak present:

 

A second sortie is ordered for all three staffeln of III./KG 51 for the late evening hours. The target is the village of Deurne, 21.75 km east-northeast of Eindhoven, and flak positions in and around this village. Oblt., Erich Ottowitz, 7./KG 51, takes off in his FW 190 F-8 "White 6" (Werk-Nr. 583 248) as one of the first at 21:57 for this second attack from Hangelar. Four minutes later Fhr. Schulte-Vennbur takes off in "Red 7" from the same spot. The FW 190s are loaded with one SC 500 Trialen explosive bomb under the fuselage and two SC 50 explosive bombs as well as two LC 50 illuminating bombs. Above the target, the FW 190s are fired upon by light flak. In the first approach, the pilots drop the 500 kg bomb in a glide attack from 1,200 m to 500 m altitude. In the second approach, the two 50-kg explosive bombs and the flare bombs are dropped. The pilots observe detonations. In the third approach, the flak positions are attacked with the aircraft’s weapons. After that, the fighter-bombers head for home.

Edited February 14, 2022 by LukeFF

[Alexmarine]

8 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 or drop all with a short delay between each bomb release). 

 

I fear that I was using this setting with a long delay interval as set by the bomb control panel, probably that's why I was under the impression I was dropping the bombs by single presses really slowly... Guess it doesn't help that I tend to fly with techochat off for immersion (wouldn't mind some future update for more customisations of the messages, so we can choose to keep some while taking off others)

 

I definitely need to find a good comprehensive book on the WW2 Schlachtflieger units that isn't just an Osprey small volume, or autobiographies...

 

5 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Here's an interesting one - 4 passes on the target!

 

snips

 

Definitely shows that under good condition the weapons employment was divided between multiple passes to maximise precision and pressure on the ground targets, perfectly in line with what I have heard about the Hs123 units breaking up the allied counter attack at Arras in 1940 (with even more strafing passes even)

 

Btw, if I can ask here without adding a new thread or resurrecting my old thread about KG units in the Normandy career: apart from the KG Ju-88 units and the two KG51 units (both the Me410 and the FW190 one), any other night attack unit (NSGr.) or daylight attack unit (SG) planned for Normandy? Unless I am mistaken I don't think SG units operated on the invasion front, with strike getting taken care off now and then by the JG units when needed, just wanted to be sure 

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

You can drop all bombs at once with the 190 F-8 / G-8 modification.

Are you sure? I only found the selection to drop the fuselage bomb first, in the middle, or at last.

 

EDIT: OK, I found it. It is the command Bomb Drop Delay Mode.

         You can drop all bombs at once with the Stuka, when you have the SC250 bombs under the wings. It doesn't work with the SD70s. Here it is the Bomb Release Mode command.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Yogiflight

[Calos_01]

41 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Are you sure? I only found the selection to drop the fuselage bomb first, in the middle, or at last.

 

Just try LCtrl+B (default), I hope I remembering  this right.

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Alexmarine said:

Btw, if I can ask here without adding a new thread or resurrecting my old thread about KG units in the Normandy career: apart from the KG Ju-88 units and the two KG51 units (both the Me410 and the FW190 one), any other night attack unit (NSGr.) or daylight attack unit (SG) planned for Normandy? Unless I am mistaken I don't think SG units operated on the invasion front, with strike getting taken care off now and then by the JG units when needed, just wanted to be sure. 

 

I think that's it. Part of SG 4 was also there, but they were based south of and off the map. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by LukeFF

[Alexmarine]

6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

I think that's it. Part of SG 4 was also there, but they were based south of and off the map. 

 

Thanks 

 

9 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

You can drop all bombs at once with the Stuka, when you have the SC250 bombs under the wings. It doesn't work with the SD70s. 

 

Yeah, it's the SD70s I was interested in... Was there really no command at all to drop all together? Guess it was really SOP to run multiple bomb runs then ?

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, Alexmarine said:

Yeah, it's the SD70s I was interested in... Was there really no command at all to drop all together? Guess it was really SOP to run multiple bomb runs then ?

No, sorry, not for the SD70s. The other side is, does it really make sense to drop them at the same spot, you drop your SC250/500? I always drop them directly after the fuselage bomb, while recovering of the dive. This way they impact with a small distance to the big bomb. You just have to look to which direction you exit your dive, so there is another target, whenever possible.

[LukeFF]

So, I've gone through and overhauled the Schlacht and Zerstörer mission sets, all the way from Moscow to Rhineland. Aside from the Hs 129 units on the Kuban map (which are already restricted as much as is currently possible to only anti-tank missions), all of these units should have much improved mission sets for the next update.

 

I also realized that SC 50s and SD 70s have been significantly under-utilized up to this point by Fw 190s and Bf 109s. That's in direct contrast both to official documents recommending what sort of bombs should be used against particular target types, and from after-action reports. Going forward, 109s will use SC 50s / SD 70s on vehicle attack missions, while Fw 190s will see an increased usage of these same bomb types on this mission type.

[easterling77]

Thank you for all the work of updating and improving - it's much appreciated?

[Ram399]

On 2/10/2022 at 2:16 AM, Ram399 said:

Now if only I could workout why the AI pilots aren't getting any high-level awards again.

Alright so I've been working on figuring this out myself by digging around in the files and re-running the same few career days as a means of trial and error.

I can say now with almost absolute certainty that the issue of AI pilots not being awarded medals lies in how they have their kills recorded by the game- which is to say that any kills scored on autoresolved missions which are not flown with the player do not count towards the overall award score.

I've been able to determine this by adjusting the 15awards file, and when moved to lower kill values the awards are given out in a way that matches how many in-game kills a given pilot has- though this creates some jarring discrepancies as I have a pilot with "39" total kills- 30 of which were in game, being given an award while a different pilot with "70" total kills seems to have around only 25 in game and as such is not granted the award.

As such the real problem clearly lies outside the 13/14/15awards file and in wherever it is that the game counts the score for the awards instead.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to locate wherever it is that this counting happens- though I know it has been fixed in the past, as in build 4.003 everything worked fine before it regressed to its current state in 4.005.

So, at least currently, I've semi-resolved the issue for myself by adjusting the "Successful Missions" parameter (as this is counted properly whether the player was present or not) for the awards to roughly match the amount of flights it takes to reach the correct thresholds but this is a tenuous jury-rigged fix at best.

So does anyone know where the bit of code for counting the kills is?

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, Ram399 said:

I can say now with almost absolute certainty that the issue of AI pilots not being awarded medals lies in how they have their kills recorded by the game- which is to say that any kills scored on autoresolved missions which are not flown with the player do not count towards the overall award score.

I've been able to determine this by adjusting the 15awards file, and when moved to lower kill values the awards are given out in a way that matches how many in-game kills a given pilot has- though this creates some jarring discrepancies as I have a pilot with "39" total kills- 30 of which were in game, being given an award while a different pilot with "70" total kills seems to have around only 25 in game and as such is not granted the award.

As such the real problem clearly lies outside the 13/14/15awards file and in wherever it is that the game counts the score for the awards instead.
Unfortunately, I have not been able to locate wherever it is that this counting happens- though I know it has been fixed in the past, as in build 4.003 everything worked fine before it regressed to its current state in 4.005.

So, at least currently, I've semi-resolved the issue for myself by adjusting the "Successful Missions" parameter (as this is counted properly whether the player was present or not) for the awards to roughly match the amount of flights it takes to reach the correct thresholds but this is a tenuous jury-rigged fix at best.

 

Yes, this is the case, and it's something I've reported to the developers. As for the code for this stuff, I think that is something that can be fixed only by them.

 

By the way, 13/14/15, etc mean the following:

 

13: Moscow

14: Stalingrad

15: Kuban

18: Rhineland

 

The 13-15 files are identical, since they of course all deal with the Eastern Front. Whatever number ends up being assigned to Normandy will have an identical file to the 18awards one.

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

Yes, this is the case, and it's something I've reported to the developers. As for the code for this stuff, I think that is something that can be fixed only by them.

It might also be the reason why the AI needs that long to get promoted, when only the player flights are counting.

[Alexmarine]

@LukeFF when was the last update to Stuka careers (daylight one, BoS and BoK)? Feel like going for a career on them but if there are still issues (wasn't there an issue with them not diving correctly?) I will probably wait for an update and go for the Hs-129 careers that are due to be updated next patch in the meanwhile.

 

[Yogiflight]

Hi Luke,

When flying the Me 262 for the I./KG 51, based at Rheine, you takeoff from the runway 150/330°. But the runway 60/240° is longer, which would make sense to use it with bombload. I always need the complete runway to get it off the ground. And the wind usually is blowing from eastern directions (which I honestly wonder about, as in Germany we usually have westwind)

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, Alexmarine said:

@LukeFF when was the last update to Stuka careers (daylight one, BoS and BoK)? Feel like going for a career on them but if there are still issues (wasn't there an issue with them not diving correctly?) I will probably wait for an update and go for the Hs-129 careers that are due to be updated next patch in the meanwhile.

 

 

It's been a long time since I made any changes to Ju 87 careers, but the one thing I do know that was globally changed with all dive-bombing aircraft is that they now fly at 1500 meters. From what I was told, this is an AI issue with the way they are told to dive-bomb; if the altitude was set above 1500 meters, they would glide down to that altitude before initiating their diving attack.

 

3 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Hi Luke,

When flying the Me 262 for the I./KG 51, based at Rheine, you takeoff from the runway 150/330°. But the runway 60/240° is longer, which would make sense to use it with bombload. I always need the complete runway to get it off the ground. And the wind usually is blowing from eastern directions (which I honestly wonder about, as in Germany we usually have westwind)

 

Yes, this is another one of those things I asked about - it has to do with the sheer number of airfields on the Rhineland map and the fact that the takeoff/landing templates aren't fully complete at this time. Hopefully with some time it will be fixed, as it affects all airfields on that map.

[Alexmarine]

22 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

It's been a long time since I made any changes to Ju 87 careers, but the one thing I do know that was globally changed with all dive-bombing aircraft is that they now fly at 1500 meters. From what I was told, this is an AI issue with the way they are told to dive-bomb; if the altitude was set above 1500 meters, they would glide down to that altitude before initiating their diving attack.

 

Thanks, guess I'll skip doing a Stuka career for the moment then... Hope the issue with the AI gets solved soon 

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, Alexmarine said:

 

Thanks, guess I'll skip doing a Stuka career for the moment then... Hope the issue with the AI gets solved soon 

I was starting a Stuks career some time ago. I had to search a bit, but on the Stalingrad map you can get Stuka careers at the old mission altitudes (usually 3000m). I have not seen any Stukas not diving, but, like in other bombing careers (Bf 110 for example) you will always have Stukas not dropping their bombs. In my opinion this is, because the AI pilot knows that the aircraft flying in front of him, will hit the target. And as AI only attacks ground targets to destroy them, he will not drop his bombs at a target, which will already be destroyed before his own bombs will hit it. This fixation on the targets the game gives, is one thing which makes ground attacks unrealistic. IRL no ground attack aircraft would have returned to base from the target with bombs. The Me 262 career shows how it should be. One attack run, both bombs dropped. What know has to be changed is, that they fly to attack a ground troop concentration, but instead attack the AA defense. This doesn't make even a bit of sense.

What developers should understand is air forces are there to support the ground troops. Everything they do is only for this goal.

[easterling77]

Questions about B 25 behaviour

 

Hello fellow Pilots 

I'm not sure if this is the proper topic - if not please correct me.

 

I'm currently flying a P38 career with the 401st FS and yesterday evening I was assigned to escort some Mitchells on their bombing Mission.

On the way back I flew direct to the 9shift bomberformation to check their speed because I was very curious about how slowly they went - by lining up with them I noticed from my own IAS, that they only went about 180 mph - a quick run through the internet states the standard crusing speed lies about 230 mph - so is this an A.I. or a missions issue?

 

And by  lining up I noticed this with the outmost right....

 

 

and the outmost left plane

 

 

they both flew the whole way back with bombays open.

 

I've checked their bombays  - they had dropped their ordonance at the target, so why did they flew with open and empty bombays back to base ?

 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by easterling77

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, easterling77 said:

Questions about B 25 behaviour

 

Hello fellow Pilots 

I'm not sure if this is the proper topic - if not please correct me.

 

I'm currently flying a P38 career with the 401st FS and yesterday evening I was assigned to escort some Mitchells on their bombing Mission.

On the way back I flew direct to the 9shift bomberformation to check their speed because I was very curious about how slowly they went - by lining up with them I noticed from my own IAS, that they only went about 180 mph - a quick run through the internet states the standard crusing speed lies about 230 mph - so is this an A.I. or a missions issue?

 

And by  lining up I noticed this with the outmost right....

 

 

and the outmost left plane

 

 

they both flew the whole way back with bombays open.

 

I've checked their bombays  - they had dropped their ordonance at the target, so why did they flew with open and empty bombays back to base ?

 

I'd make a report about this in the Technical Issues part of the forum - it looks like it is either an AI and/or a mission design issue.

[easterling77]

Ok thank you

 

I will do so?

 

[csThor]

Ok, Houston we may have a problem. 

 

I just finished a bunch of Moscow missions and my unit lost nine (!!!!!) pilots in three interception missions versus Pe-2 and Il-2. It seems as if the interceptors are always focusing entirely on the bombers/attackers and totally ignore the escorts. This may be somewhat realistic for green units (like much of the VVS in 1941 and 1942 or the Luftwaffe over Germany in 1944/45) but not all the time. I also found this to be true when I was escorting Bf 110s - I shot down four P-40s (plus two by my wingmen) on this mission and they barely reacted to me. Is the focus of the interceptors an issue with their mission settings (like priority for the bombers set to "high")?

 

Secondly after losing five pilots in two missions the unit should be raken off ops for a few days as a rule to be rebuild with new pilots and to receive new a/c. Just saying.

 

EDIT: We do have a problem. I just lost the tenth pilot in one day on yet another intercept. Sorry, but his is BULLSHIT! Even the AI is not that inept, there is a serious configuration issue here. And apart from that: It seems that campaigns are pointless until the devs fix the issues that the new clouds have brought along. A solid cloud layer 2k thick with bombers flying in their middle? They couldn't find their own asses without sophisticated radio/radar guidance but that stuff wasn't available to the VVS in October 1941. Sorry to say ... right now I am utterly disappointed.

Edited February 19, 2022 by csThor

[Ram399]

2 hours ago, csThor said:

after losing five pilots in two missions the unit should be raken off ops for a few days as a rule to be rebuild with new pilots and to receive new a/c.

If your squadron gets to a low enough point in men and aircraft it will be taken off of ops for a short period to recuperate- but when I say low I mean practically annihilated. 
As is if ops got sidelined after every instance of medium to high casualties then the vast majority of players would be flying for a day, recuperating for several, and then flying for another single day again. 

At least currently the AI's propensity to get completely slaughtered in certain engagements can only be counteracted by the player knowing when they need to intervene through experience.  You are correct that the AI on intercept missions will usually tunnel vision straight onto the bombers/attack aircraft they are targeting- but you can counteract this in a couple of ways. 

The first and easiest one is if you are the flight lead and can order the "Engage Nearest Air Target" command, this will break their focus on the target flight and allow them to defend themselves against the fighters, but this will of course allow something like bombers to escape.
(In Kuban I often use this tactic to destroy the escort before pursuing the bombers and re-intercepting them on their return trip, makes for a Turkey Shoot almost every time)

Spoiler

The second and more time sensitive way is, if you are not the flight lead, then your only goal at the beginning of the fight should be to make a single high speed pass on the target formation which destroys at least one aircraft, and then zoom climb for as much altitude you can manage.  By immediately destroying one of the target aircraft the mission parameters should be counted as fulfilled, and your AI wingmen will eventually break off from the bombers once they realize its time to go home and there's enemy fighters around.  In the meantime you play boom and zoom top cover, bouncing anything that fires red tracers until they sort it out.

It is kind of annoying to have to deal with, but the AI has always been a work in progress and hopefully we'll get something of a self-preservation update before too long on this front.

Though to be honest, at the moment all I really want in terms of AI is something like an "Engage with Extreme Prejudice" command which allows the AI to ignore their mission parameters entirely and act more like one of the friendly cover flights encountered around the map.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Ram399

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, Ram399 said:

If your squadron gets to a low enough point in men and aircraft it will be taken off of ops for a short period to recuperate- but when I say low I mean practically annihilated. 

I saw an AI mission done by one aircraft, instead of four or six.

 

4 hours ago, csThor said:

It seems as if the interceptors are always focusing entirely on the bombers/attackers and totally ignore the escorts.

 

2 hours ago, Ram399 said:

You are correct that the AI on intercept missions will usually tunnel vision straight onto the bombers/attack aircraft they are targeting

Well, my observation is, I can focus on the bombers/ground attack aircrafts, because my squadmates usually almost every time only attack the escort fighters. It is very rare, that one of them attacks a bomber or a ground attack aircraft.

Maybe the difference in our observations is in our own behaviour. Maybe the AI reacts to how we approach the enemy planes. Or it has to do with the aircrafts/time we fly.

 

EDIT: Another observation I always make is, the enemy fighters are always attacking from above. No matter if we are intercepting bombers or ground attack aircrafts, we always approach at the altitude of the aircrafts we intercept, while the escort fighters are, of course, flying higher. You would never intercept in such a stupid way, IRL.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Yogiflight