Dynamic Campaign

[zdog0331]

This community has been wanting some form of dynamic campaign for a fairly long time now.  Many of us remember back to the days of falcon 4.0 and have reveled at the Idea of flying something like that again.  22 years have passed and so far we have yet to have anything like it to come our since then.

 

However, I do believe that we as the community may be able to come out with something like this for Il2.  We have a variety of people in this community who have created all sorts of 3^rd party tools ranging from PWCG to even server-side resource management server plugins that we have seen in the case of Coconuts server.  Looking at all of the different resources that have been produced for this game, It seems to me that It may be possible to combine these tools into a proper dynamic campaign revolving around tank crew.   

 

I have been toying around with this idea for a while now working through the what to do and how to do it.  Over these months I believe I have a way, but unfortunately I do not have many of the necessary skills (programing in particular) to actually execute on this, so I felt that I should share this with everyone in the community and see what comes of this.  This project will require 3 different parts.  Turn based strategy, Resource management, and Mission design. 

 

Turn based strategy:

The turn-based strategy will require and AI and potentially a system that allows the player to interact with it.  How this will work will be through the map screen.  The map will be divided into squares each with a number listing its resources.  A player will be allowed to move resources over 1 square at a time barring acceptations EX: rivers and train stations (will be explained later).  Each square has a maximum number of total units which is based off of the terrain of that square.  A forest for example will not be able to have as many resources as a city or train station.  This is to help out create proper defensive lines and also set up strategic points that can be defended easier while also giving targets to Aircraft which will have their own mechanics.

 

Airports will have their own system.  Airports allow for planes to be stored and are points which can attack any squire within their radius. There will be 2 plane options being bombers/attackers and fighters. 

 

Bombers will have the option to attack any square within their range.  They will have a dice roll which determines how much damage they do and how much damage they take.  This is modified by factors including Anti-Aircraft guns, and whether or not they are near a fighter sweep which leads into fighters.

 

Fighters can either be set to defend the bombers or sweep a certain area.  Fighter sweeps will protect that area from enemy bombers while when set to defend they will reduce the modifiers enemy fighters get against your bombers.

 

Each rendition of tank missions will include a version with friendly bombers (with and without fighter escort), enemy bombers (with and without escort), And fighter sweeps for each side.

 

All battles in this mode are controlled through dice rolls with the exception of battles being fought by the player which is determined by whether or not the player succeeded and losses will be calculated based off of actual losses (if possible).  If not possible the loosing side will loose 100% of its units and there will be a dice roll to determine the loss of friendly units.

 

Each tile can divert resources vertically, horizontally, or diagonally.  When delivering troops to friendly territory, this simply adds the troops to their territory.  In the case of enemy, it becomes listed as an attack and modifiers are set for the rolls.  When you delicate resources, numbers are not modified until the end turn option is enabled at which all battles are calculated then all troop movement to friendly territory is delicate.

 

Battles in this game are calculated similarly to Risk.  You get a dice roll for each unit that is committed and each loss counts as a loss.  Once all the enemy units are destroyed, the rest of the delicate units enter that territory without impediment.  If an area is set to be attacked by aircraft, the aircraft bomber damage is calculated first and then the ground troops are calculated.  Empty tiles are treated as friendly territory by all factions and can be entered without impediment.

 

 

Resource management:

Resource management will be a background track of the number of resources available to each team.  Given the usage of tank crew This will most likely be measured by available planes and tanks each getting reinforced for each side once every month.  These numbers can be listed as even or be based off of the date to simulate the actual progression of the war behind the battlefield.  This will also be modified by attacking train stations behind the front line which will limit the number of units that can be transferred from one train station to the other.

 

Each tile is limited in the amount of resources that it can hold and for fought battles will have each side include separate options for large medium and small number of units which will be based off of the size of the tile.  Some blocks such as cities may have extra sizes above large.

 

Each side has 2 dedicate HQ areas.  1 area is a staging area for ground troops which will be the closest rail station to the edge of the map.  The other area is an airport which will be the one closest to the edge of the map.  Ever month this is where the reinforcements arrive and will be delivered to the proper sections of the battlefield manually.  If either of the HQs are at maximum capacity the player will be notified that resources have been diverted to another battle and will not receive any more resources from that spot.

 

Mission design:

This campaign is designed for tank crew and will require lots and lots of missions for it to work properly.  Each tile has a small medium and large value for its size and attacks will need to be calculated to be possible for each of the 8 sides of the square (both faces and corners).

 

This is what will take the longest time as the maps are massive and will require custom missions for each sector.  The map that I believe will be the easiest to do is the new tank crew map and that one has 100 different sectors which each will need to have 8 different attack zones with 3 sizes for each along with 3 different sizes for the defending team.  Not to mention there needs to be options for each of the 6 variations for having aircraft in the battle.  This is a massive undertaking and each battle for quality will need to be tested repeatedly due to the current limitations of the AI.

 

Conclusion:  This is a massive undertaking, but I think in the end it would be a worth while venture.  This will likely take multiple years worth of work.  The largest amount will be the mission making by a large margin.  Knowing what I know I completely understand why the developers decided to stick with scripted campaigns for tank crew and I honestly do not think that it is worth it for them to work on this due to the amount of resources it would take.  But I think we as a larger community can put in effort towards a common goal that many of us would like to see implemented.  If the system works well for tank crew, We could even work at setting up something for Planes as well.  However I think that the biggest part of this would be ground vehicles and potentially infantry if that does make it into the game.  Any help with this will be much appreciated.  I know that my skillset is limited and I do not have what it takes to do the backend or front end work for the program nor do I have the time to get all 14400 missions made (obviously a large portion of this will be presets getting smushed together so more like 2000 worth of work).  But I think we can at least start it and enjoy the map as we keep on adding on to it.  It may take years, but I think we can all agree that this may be worth it.

[JG7_X-Man]

Personally I don't like the idea of what-if scenarios nor anything remotely concerning alternative history accuracy. Especially when it comes to WW II.

Germany went to bed with the right-wing nationalistic ideas of a man one evening in 1933 and woke up the next day 12 years later with a very bad case of the clap. There is no alternative outcome for those who lost their lives on both sides and not to mention the innocent - ALL FOR WHAT EXACTLY?

 

Also, I am not sure the IL-2 GB community necessary wants a TAW type campaign for on-line or offline plays.

 

What I think is needed is a tool like Paul Lowngrin's Dynamic Campaign Generator that allows for users to easily create their own dynamic campaigns which can be historically or non historically accurate.

Edited November 24, 2020 by JG7_X-Man

[Gambit21]

8 hours ago, zdog0331 said:

  Over these months I believe I have a way, but unfortunately I do not have many of the necessary skills (programing in particular) to actually execute on this,

 

OK,  basically here is what you  just said.

 

"I have a way to build an aircraft that runs on apple juice and will fly at mach 10 and fire all of it's ordinance accurately without human intervention, has VTOL capability and the pilot would never have to pee while flying it. However I lack the necessary skills (design, an aviation background/engineering, fabrication, aerodynamics, avionics, fluid mechanics, jet propulsion, biomechanical interfacing and farming) and knowledge to actually execute it. 

 

Not trying to pick on you, and I hope you'll forgive my tongue being firmly implanted in cheek here. However you haven't found "a way" to do anything, you've simply presented a list of ideas and if game development were that easy then we'd have everything by now.

 

 

 

 

[AndyJWest]

Yeah, what Gambit said.

 

Every so often, someone makes a post on a programming forum somewhere saying they have a brilliant idea for a AAA game which will earn millions, and if someone will write it for them, they will give them a percentage of the profits. This seems to be much the same, only without the cut.

 

People who create specific stuff for the community do so because that is what they are interested in, and not because someone else thinks that ' multiple years worth of work' are worth putting into a project in order to achieve something that a single individual so far (not capable of doing any of it) thinks 'may be worth it'. Volunteer for yourself, not on behalf of other people.

[zdog0331]

10 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

OK,  basically here is what you  just said.

 

"I have a way to build an aircraft that runs on apple juice and will fly at mach 10 and fire all of it's ordinance accurately without human intervention, has VTOL capability and the pilot would never have to pee while flying it. However I lack the necessary skills (design, an aviation background/engineering, fabrication, aerodynamics, avionics, fluid mechanics, jet propulsion, biomechanical interfacing and farming) and knowledge to actually execute it. 

 

Not trying to pick on you, and I hope you'll forgive my tongue being firmly implanted in cheek here. However you haven't found "a way" to do anything, you've simply presented a list of ideas and if game development were that easy then we'd have everything by now.

 

 

 

 

 

Well received.  I do not think these things are easy at all what so ever.  In fact the mission making alone would be horrifically time consuming.  I am currently working on the mission making side by myself.  Merely putting it out there to see if anyone else would be interested in helping out.  If so then I will probably create a dedicated forum with the missions and files that are available to people and anyone who wishes to help can contribute to it.  This obviously is a hobby.  I will say that Main reason I believe it doable for a programmer is because I have designed something that would work.  Unfortunately it is electrical based using a series of limit switches pneumatic pistons, Relay switches, and buttons.  I actually made it for a high school project where I made the game risk using nothing but electrical parts.  We were supposed to use an Arduino set, but our Arduino board was messed up so I used physical electricidal parts.  And I think it could be applied here.  But that is the logic side of things, not the coding side.  And I don't know how to translate.

 

But if you aren't interested then you aren't interested.  I am mostly propping to see how many are interested since I seem to see people begging for a dynamic campaign or wishing for a more in depth tank crew campaign and I simply wish to see who is interested.  Most likely will be worked on through the forums with a share drive if I do get people interested.  But people may not be interested in which case I will simply release the missions I am making as just individual missions.

[Sketch]

Gambit is a little too blunt sometimes, but he's a great guy in my opinion. Look, I've seen this a lot in my career. You'll only get people to follow your idea if you either have a lot of money, or you've already built most of the project and you just need that last 20% or so. 

 

This is why you see the same video games year after year, it's because the guys with the money want a good return on their investment. And the guys of the money are the ones who say, "Do my idea and I'll pay you." 

 

On the flip side, you have guys like the developers of Among Us, Stardew Valley, Onward, and more, who built the project all on their own sometimes without knowing all pieces to make a great game. As an example, concernedApe, the developer of Stardew Valley, didn't know the art side of the house and struggled with it while making Stardew Valley. 

 

Maybe, if you had a design document, and a bunch of mission assets already built, and maybe some of the programming logic built out too. Of course you may struggle with that portion because it's new to you, but this is where you could ask for help, instead of just a blank slate without any commitment behind it.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Sketch

[Gambit21]

4 hours ago, zdog0331 said:

 

But if you aren't interested then you aren't interested.  I am mostly propping to see how many are interested since I seem to see people begging for a dynamic campaign or wishing for a more in depth tank crew campaign and I simply wish to see who is interested.  Most likely will be worked on through the forums with a share drive if I do get people interested.  But people may not be interested in which case I will simply release the missions I am making as just individual missions.

 

You're clearly no dummy.

I have my own sort of ‘dynamic’ highly randomized mission functionality that I’m continuing to build/improve. However it’s scope is necessarily limited to the task at hand (Mosquito night ops)

 

Basically the entire campaign is a single mission file - which at its core is the same general sort of approach that the current career uses. However unlike the devs who have to cover everything, I have the luxury of taking a narrower scope/higher detail  approach.

 

A lot is possible with the editor but to accomplish much of what is needed for your idea, these things are beyond the editor - you need to code.

[Raptor341]

Love the idea - I'm looking forward to what DCS does with their dynamic campaign engine. Personally, it is the update I'm most excited for.

[zdog0331]

15 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

You're clearly no dummy.

I have my own sort of ‘dynamic’ highly randomized mission functionality that I’m continuing to build/improve. However it’s scope is necessarily limited to the task at hand (Mosquito night ops)

 

Basically the entire campaign is a single mission file - which at its core is the same general sort of approach that the current career uses. However unlike the devs who have to cover everything, I have the luxury of taking a narrower scope/higher detail  approach.

 

A lot is possible with the editor but to accomplish much of what is needed for your idea, these things are beyond the editor - you need to code.

Yea a narrow scope does make things a lot simpler.  What I want to do is very ambitious.  Perhaps too abitious.  I am starting the missions at certain points on the map so that something can be playable quicker.  I mean most of the work is going to be creating the missions.  So if I have the missions then I can start going over the 3rd party code to act as the turn based strategy side of things.

 

Although the turn based strategy is a bit of a dream and I probably can get by with simply putting missions in order to create more of a career feeling mode.  But once I got the list of missions, there is a lot that can be done.

[sniperton]

On 11/24/2020 at 5:23 AM, JG7_X-Man said:

What I think is needed is a tool like Paul Lowngrin's Dynamic Campaign Generator that allows for users to easily create their own dynamic campaigns which can be historically or non historically accurate.

What @zdog0331outlined here resembles in several ways the background logic and working of Lowengrin's DCG for Il-2 1946.

 

One important difference is that Lowengrin, instead of dice-rolls, could rely on actual combat results of AI units all over the map, because the AI was not that resource-hungry in the old title, and consequently a large portion of the map could be populated with AI units fighting all the time during the mission (planes strafing supply convoys, bombers attacking supply depots, artillery shelling troops concentrations, tanks occupying positions, etc, etc). All losses could be simply read out from the game logs and could be factored in before the next mission was generated. This is not possible in Il-2 GB.

 

Anyway, PWCG already has some dynamic elements, so I'm sure it already has a basic type of strategic AI working in the background. And if PWCG can generate a variety of missions according to some set preferences/parameters, I don't see why it could not dynamically change those parameters over time according to a strategic plan with randomized probability factors, all based on a user-customizable template map as Lowengrin's DCG did.

 

We can only hope that @PatrickAWlsonshows interest in some of these ideas and finds the time to implement a few.

 

For anyone interested, I attach Tailspin's old guide to DCG; it's rather technical, but gives you an idea how the illusion of a dynamically evolving strategic war can be created on mission-level.

dcg_campaign_info_v321.zip

[Gambit21]

There’s editior logic, and there’s source code. Patrick uses code to manipulate the editor logic rather than working in the editor itself as we do. This is not however to be confused with coding behavior in the actual game code - which we don’t have access to. The ideas above mostly require the latter.

[sniperton]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

There’s editior logic, and there’s source code. Patrick uses code to manipulate the editor logic rather than working in the editor itself as we do. This is not however to be confused with coding behavior in the actual game code - which we don’t have access to. The ideas above mostly require the latter.

Not at all.

 

One creates a mission either manually by scripting via the editor (as you do), or by generating the mission script from code (as Patrick does).

Once the mission is created, the mission script is interpreted by the game engine which re-creates the mission according to the parameters you have set.

Here we have nothing to do with how the game engine ("the actual game code") interprets the script. We can take the source code "as is"; it just reads and executes your commands with some randomness.

 

On the other hand, if you create a mission script from code (as Patrick does), you can use templates and variables instead of static values to create any mission purely by changing the actual value of those variables from code.

Now if you change those variables from mission to mission according to previous mission results and a "background strategic plan", you can create a sequence of missions where each mission is built upon the previous one. The code that creates the next mission (I called it "strategic AI") can follow a user-defined plan with some randomness while also factoring in previous mission results.

 

I don't say it would be a milk run, but with PWCG Patrick has already created a programming environment that could be enhanced to that effect.

 

[Gambit21]

Hmm...I see what you’re saying (I think) but there are still elements that require access to the game code it seems. 

[sniperton]

5 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Hmm...I see what you’re saying (I think) but there are still elements that require access to the game code it seems. 

English is my 3rd language, so please forgive me for not having been clear enough. But believe me, access to the game code is really not required here (as long as the game code interprets your mission commands in the same way).

You're very good at creating individual missions, Gambit, but a truly "dynamic" campaign rests in Pat's hands. If I were skilled enough in Java, I would have volunteered happily. Anyway, Tailspin's old guide to DCG is worth reading for anyone looking for inspiration.

Edited November 26, 2020 by sniperton

[Gambit21]

27 minutes ago, sniperton said:

English is my 3rd language, so please forgive me for not having been clear enough. But believe me, access to the game code is really not required here (as long as the game code interprets your mission commands in the same way).

You're very good at creating individual missions, Gambit, but a truly "dynamic" campaign rests in Pat's hands. If I were skilled enough in Java, I would have volunteered happily. Anyway, Tailspin's old guide to DCG is worth reading for anyone looking for inspiration.

 

Well you type better than many people who have English as their 1st language, so no worries my friend.

I have no interest in creating anything truly dynamic, simulating this via scripting is more immersive anyway IMHO. I'm just talking about ideas vs what can actually be pulled off outside of the actual game code. My opinion on this may be due to my interpretation of the above ideas vs his, or yours.

[zdog0331]

On 11/25/2020 at 9:04 AM, sniperton said:

What @zdog0331outlined here resembles in several ways the background logic and working of Lowengrin's DCG for Il-2 1946.

 

One important difference is that Lowengrin, instead of dice-rolls, could rely on actual combat results of AI units all over the map, because the AI was not that resource-hungry in the old title, and consequently a large portion of the map could be populated with AI units fighting all the time during the mission (planes strafing supply convoys, bombers attacking supply depots, artillery shelling troops concentrations, tanks occupying positions, etc, etc). All losses could be simply read out from the game logs and could be factored in before the next mission was generated. This is not possible in Il-2 GB.

 

Anyway, PWCG already has some dynamic elements, so I'm sure it already has a basic type of strategic AI working in the background. And if PWCG can generate a variety of missions according to some set preferences/parameters, I don't see why it could not dynamically change those parameters over time according to a strategic plan with randomized probability factors, all based on a user-customizable template map as Lowengrin's DCG did.

 

We can only hope that @PatrickAWlsonshows interest in some of these ideas and finds the time to implement a few.

 

For anyone interested, I attach Tailspin's old guide to DCG; it's rather technical, but gives you an idea how the illusion of a dynamically evolving strategic war can be created on mission-level.

dcg_campaign_info_v321.zip 145.94 kB · 1 download

Reason I was thinking of dice rolls is because this is for tank crew and rendering the entire line would involve hundreds and hundreds of units and be unplayable due to the lag.  Not to mention creating a dynamic line that changes in the  mission is much more difficult than fighting 1 battle.  

 

I will say that I do not think this requires in game code at all.  For the most part this simply works a lot like PWCG where the game is outside of IL2 and the logic of that program determins which mission you fight in.  The missions are all pre generated and its about selecting the right mission.  And then it is either a success or a failure which results in territory gained or lost.

[Jaegermeister]

On 11/23/2020 at 4:52 PM, zdog0331 said:

Looking at all of the different resources that have been produced for this game, It seems to me that It may be possible to combine these tools into a proper dynamic campaign revolving around tank crew.   

 

Each rendition of tank missions will include a version with friendly bombers (with and without fighter escort), enemy bombers (with and without escort), And fighter sweeps for each side.

 

Mission design:

This campaign is designed for tank crew and will require lots and lots of missions for it to work properly.  Each tile has a small medium and large value for its size and attacks will need to be calculated to be possible for each of the 8 sides of the square (both faces and corners).

 

This is what will take the longest time as the maps are massive and will require custom missions for each sector.  The map that I believe will be the easiest to do is the new tank crew map and that one has 100 different sectors which each will need to have 8 different attack zones with 3 sizes for each along with 3 different sizes for the defending team.  Not to mention there needs to be options for each of the 6 variations for having aircraft in the battle.  This is a massive undertaking and each battle for quality will need to be tested repeatedly due to the current limitations of the AI.

 

 

Not to be a party pooper or anything, but there are some major flaws in your plan. Have you made any missions in Tank Crew?

 

The first problem is that there is a very small portion of the map that you can use for making missions in Tank Crew. The map is designed for missions to be made in this area...

 

 

That's 4 map squares you have to work with. Why you might ask? Because that's the only area on the only map where tanks can interact with scenery. Anywhere else, objects do not allow the tanks to run over them and the vehicles get stuck or get damaged by running into haystacks, wooden carts, bicycles and the like. 

 

Try it, you'll see. I know, because I'm that guy who sent in the bug reports and had the Devs explain not so patiently that no, the objects are not bugged because they are only designed to behave correctly in those 4 map squares. Everyone should know that, but they don't. It's explained in the Dev Diary if you look back close enough. The rest of the map is just there so there is enough airspace to have planes flying around to interact with ground objects.

 

I could get into the issue of this is not a dice game or how long it's going to take you to make Tank Crew missions, but there is no real need. 1 Tank mission will take you at least a week of work if you start now. Just sayin'....   

 

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Jaegermeister

[zdog0331]

On 12/12/2020 at 8:41 AM, Jaegermeister said:

 

Not to be a party pooper or anything, but there are some major flaws in your plan. Have you made any missions in Tank Crew?

 

The first problem is that there is a very small portion of the map that you can use for making missions in Tank Crew. The map is designed for missions to be made in this area...

 

 

That's 4 map squares you have to work with. Why you might ask? Because that's the only area on the only map where tanks can interact with scenery. Anywhere else, objects do not allow the tanks to run over them and the vehicles get stuck or get damaged by running into haystacks, wooden carts, bicycles and the like. 

 

Try it, you'll see. I know, because I'm that guy who sent in the bug reports and had the Devs explain not so patiently that no, the objects are not bugged because they are only designed to behave correctly in those 4 map squares. Everyone should know that, but they don't. It's explained in the Dev Diary if you look back close enough. The rest of the map is just there so there is enough airspace to have planes flying around to interact with ground objects.

 

I could get into the issue of this is not a dice game or how long it's going to take you to make Tank Crew missions, but there is no real need. 1 Tank mission will take you at least a week of work if you start now. Just sayin'....   

 

 

Well.  I guess I will not be using the tank crew map then.  I mostly have been making missions on the stalingrad map.  I wonder why they would do the outer scenery in this map differently than what they did in the other maps.  I mean in the other maps, you just phase through some things like fences.  Either way I like making tank missions and have a fair amount of presets that I tend to use and adjust for the map which allows me to make a mission a day if I really work at it.  But I haven't been working on this project yet since I have been still working on my map wide stalingrad mission seeing if I can optimize a mission to be map wide.  Its been involving some jank, but it seems to be going well so far, though I am only 20% of the way finished.

[Thad]

Salutations,

 

Firstly, IL2 is primarily a flight simulator. As such, its' initial maps did NOT have much ground detail because such close up scenery interaction detail wasn't needed or required.

 

Secondly, enter the Tank Crew module of the game. The developers realized that the normal flight centric maps were lacking in ground detail and scenery destructibility. That is why they created the Prokhorovka map that included a portion with increased detail. This is admirable from our development team.... not a reason for complaint. 

 

Finally, Tank Crew vehicles can operate on the original maps... but the increase in ground details and scenery interactivity will  obviously not be present.  

[Tonester]

If only a dynamic campaign like the one EAW had were possible...in fact i would love to see a modern version of EAW right down to the music,UI and briefings....id gladly pay handsomely for that...ahhh the memories that menu music brings...they were fun times way back then

 

[Gambit21]

On 12/21/2020 at 10:02 PM, Tonester said:

If only a dynamic campaign like the one EAW had were possible...in fact i would love to see a modern version of EAW right down to the music,UI and briefings....id gladly pay handsomely for that...ahhh the memories that menu music brings...they were fun times way back then

 

 

EAW set standards that still have not been even equaled in some ways with regard to immersion...however the campaign was not dynamic.

[PB0_Roll]

But it was not static either, was it ?

 

Playing the campaign twice would not result in playing same missions in same order ?

Edited January 6, 2021 by KGM_Roll
clarification

[Gambit21]

5 hours ago, KGM_Roll said:

But it was not static either, was it ?

 

Playing the campaign twice would not result in playing same missions in same order ?

 

Probably not, but I can't say for sure. It's been too long.

[PB0_Roll]

I remember missions as different (yet similar, but that is to be expected for a dynamic campaign) every run, but indeed it's been some time.