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MW 50 and the Bf 109 G-6 Late


LukeFF
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Currently, in career mode the Bf 109 G-6 Late is configured to always have MW 50 available, but it is not enabled by default for any mission type. Is there any time frame where it should be enabled by default? It's available up to mid-January 1945 with II./JG 11. My thought right now is to have MW 50 enabled from the start of the Rhineland campaign.

 

Thoughts?

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10 hours ago, LukeFF said:

My thought right now is to have MW 50 enabled from the start of the Rhineland campaign.

 

Thoughts?

 

According to Jean-Claude Mermet the MW-50 System for G6 machines was introduced 05/44. See page 103 of said book. He also mentions the temporary instructions for usage of MW50 for DB 605A and DB 605AS which dates to 6th May 1944 and got revised to the final form on 20th June 1944 by Daimler-Benz. So G6 late machines should have it activated accordingly in 05/44.

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StaB/Tomio_VR***

Ok for introduction in May 1944 but it doesnt mean all the G6 had it for the Battle of Normandy.

 

Does someone have an idea on how many % of them were retrofitted with MW50 system ?

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5 hours ago, StaB/Tomio_VR*** said:

Ok for introduction in May 1944 but it doesnt mean all the G6 had it for the Battle of Normandy.

 

Does someone have an idea on how many % of them were retrofitted with MW50 system ?

 

Yes, this is what I'm trying to figure out. If the majority weren't fitted with MW 50, then it's best to just leave it the way it is right now.

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On 11/17/2020 at 7:54 PM, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, this is what I'm trying to figure out. If the majority weren't fitted with MW 50, then it's best to just leave it the way it is right now.

 

I´m pretty sure you won´t find any hard data on that. A G6 can be anything in that timeframe. Old G6, fresh from factory without MW 50, with MW 50, retrofitted by Erla Antwerp, etc. I´d go with a best guess and activate it at a small percentage which increases over time (if that is possible). 10% May, 20% June, 40% July/August, 60% September, etc..., each step per month, something like that if that is feasable.

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12 hours ago, sevenless said:

I´m pretty sure you won´t find any hard data on that. A G6 can be anything in that timeframe. Old G6, fresh from factory without MW 50, with MW 50, retrofitted by Erla Antwerp, etc. I´d go with a best guess and activate it at a small percentage which increases over time (if that is possible). 10% May, 20% June, 40% July/August, 60% September, etc..., each step per month, something like that if that is feasable.

 

Thanks. There is kind of a way to have it increased over time, but the problem is that it's all or nothing - that is, all planes will have it enabled by default or they won't. So, you could have a morning mission where everyone has the MW 50 system installed, and then on the afternoon mission no one has it.

 

Like I wrote above, my thought right now is (for Normandy) have it available but not enabled by default; and then, once Rhineland begins, have it always enabled.

 

Another scenario could be to have it always be a 50/50 chance of it being enabled by default, throughout both Normandy and Rhineland. That's similar to how I have the rear gun mod set up on the 1942 version of the Il-2.

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36 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Another scenario could be to have it always be a 50/50 chance of it being enabled by default, throughout both Normandy and Rhineland. That's similar to how I have the rear gun mod set up on the 1942 version of the Il-2.

 

I think I´d go with that 50/50 option of enabling it in BoN if you talk about AI planes in career mode and 100% for BoBP. The SP player however should be able to decide for himself everytime once that option is historically introduced.

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2 hours ago, sevenless said:

I think I´d go with that 50/50 option of enabling it in BoN if you talk about AI planes in career mode and 100% for BoBP. The SP player however should be able to decide for himself everytime once that option is historically introduced.

 

Yes, the player always has that option, so long as the mod isn't grayed-out. 

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mw50.thumb.jpg.17dd015ed1bafcac07a25c8681ad07a0.jpg

 

A snippet from a PDF that Mermet's put out on the web a number of years back.

 

Not sure how many G6/U2 conversions were done specifically.

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I recall reading somewhere that the MW50 system was in short supply and it was not even fitted to all G-14 and/or many flew with the system empty due to short supply of the fluid, so not sure how many world have been retrofitted to the G-6?

 

making it default as of the Rhineland campaign would seem a good compromise.

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1 hour ago, Sgt_Joch said:

I recall reading somewhere that the MW50 system was in short supply and it was not even fitted to all G-14 and/or many flew with the system empty due to short supply of the fluid, so not sure how many world have been retrofitted to the G-6?

 

making it default as of the Rhineland campaign would seem a good compromise.

 

Thanks. My plan right now is to have it available by default for Rhineland and 50 percent chance of it being available for Normandy. 

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-=PHX=-SuperEtendard
54 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Thanks. My plan right now is to have it available by default for Rhineland and 50 percent chance of it being available for Normandy. 


sounds about right. Don't remember now when exactly Normandy campaign starts but after April 50% chance would be good.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/26/2020 at 3:51 PM, Sgt_Joch said:

I recall reading somewhere that the MW50 system was in short supply and it was not even fitted to all G-14 and/or many flew with the system empty due to short supply of the fluid, so not sure how many world have been retrofitted to the G-6?

 

making it default as of the Rhineland campaign would seem a good compromise.

 

MW 50 (Methanol-Wasser 50) was a 50-50 mixture of methanol and water, That's the one thing the Luftwaffe wasn't in short supply of for awhile. The German synthetic fuel manufacturing plants were not targeted in wide spread until the "Oil Campaign" of mid to late '44.

 

To go even deeper, it wasn't until late '44 early '45 when Mosquitos and No. 16 Sqn PR Spitfires started taking recon photos after USAAF and RAF bomb runs did the allies started really making a dent in the synthetic fuel supply with repeat low to mid level altitude attacks, usually from the B-25 and B-26 units that were usually the lesser know guys.

Edited by JG7_X-Man
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29 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

MW 50 (Methanol-Wasser 50) was a 50-50 mixture of methanol and water, That's the one thing the Luftwaffe wasn't in short supply of for awhile. The German synthetic fuel manufacturing plants were not targeted in wide spread until the "Oil Campaign" of mid to late '44.

 

 

What I had read, although I would have to track down the source, is that it was not uncommon for ACs to take off with empty MW50 tanks. 

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4 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

 

What I had read, although I would have to track down the source, is that it was not uncommon for ACs to take off with empty MW50 tanks. 

 @Sgt_Joch As you have proof that ACs took-off on missions with out MW50 and I have proof that MW50 was not in short supply until early mid '45. We are left with only the obvious:

  • The Luftwaffe limited MW50 to mission when it was needed for various reasons other than supply.

Two things that come to my mind is the wear and tear MW 50 has on engines parts and with the German retreats. The guys without planes (i.e. mechanics) usually got let behind and thus the Luftwaffe not only lost pilots but skilled workers that keep their planes serviceable.

 

However, I am sure there were cases where a shortage was an issue as logistics would be more of a factor than lack of MW50.

 

Just an educated guess - I could be way off base LOL

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VO101Kurfurst
On 11/26/2020 at 9:51 PM, Sgt_Joch said:

I recall reading somewhere that the MW50 system was in short supply and it was not even fitted to all G-14 and/or many flew with the system empty due to short supply of the fluid, so not sure how many world have been retrofitted to the G-6?

 

Close that book and never open again.

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Quote

Donald Caldwell wrote of the FW 190 D-9’s operational debut in his The JG 26 War Diary Volume Two 1943-1945 (pages 388 – 399):

17 December: The Second Gruppe pilots returned to the front and their new base at Nördhorn-Clausheide in seventy-four Fw 190D-9s, their numbers bolstered by twenty brand-new pilots. The pilot’s opinions of the “long-nosed Dora”, or Dora-9, as it was variously nicknamed, were mixed. The new model was intended to correct the Fw 190’s most glaring weakness, its poor high altitude performance. What came out of Kurt Tank’s shop was a compromise. Tank did not like the liquid-cooled Jumo 213A engine, but it was the best choice available. The long in-line engine had to be balanced by a lengthened rear fuselage to maintain the proper center of gravity, making the Fw 190D four feet longer than the Fw 190A. The new airplane lacked the high turn rate and incredible rate of roll of its close-coupled radial-engined predecessor. It was a bit faster, however, with a maximum speed of 680 km/h (422 mph) at 6600 meters (21,650 feet).Its 2240 horespower with methanol-water injection (MW 50) gave it an excellent acceleration in combat situations. It also climbed and dived more rapidly than the Fw 190A, and so proved well suited to the dive-and-zoom ambush tactics favored by the Schlageter pilots. Many of the early models were not equipped with tanks for methanol, which was in very short supply in any event. At low altitude, the top speed and acceleration of these examples were inferior to those of Allied fighters. Hans Hartigs recalled that only one of the first batch of Dora-9s received by the First Gruppe had methanol-water injection, and the rest had a top speed of only 590 km/h (360 mph).

 

FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials (wwiiaircraftperformance.org)

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Yes, production of MW 50 may have been reduced in 'late '44 significantly. However, to say that aircraft were manufactured without MW50 tanks because of a shortage is just not true nor does it make sense.

That statement is akin to someone saying "Toilet paper was in short supply in Nov 2020 due to COVID-19, so home builders stop installing paper rollers in bathrooms" :rofl:

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2 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

However, to say that aircraft were manufactured without MW50 tanks because of a shortage is just not true.

You have to have stuff at the location where they were used. Just because there's some stock of something somewhere doesn't necessarily translate in immediate availability. The Germans were notoriously bad in allocating ressources, as each Gauleiter liked to be a little king. Thieves and looters are bad at sharing their spoils.

 

But I would doubt methanol was in short supply. In fact, it was a cerntral intermediate in the IG Farben process of synthesizing aircraft fuels. the entire porcess was in fact based on producing methanol and from there it evolved into making B4 and later C3 fuel. IG Farben succeeded in recycling isobutylalcohol and processing it into isooctane as well as Oppanol (polyisobutylen) that was used to adjust viscosity of mineral oils.

 

Thus I'd go as far as saying that it was absolutely impossible that methanol was "not there". It was, and lots of it. But it well not have been made available to some for various reasons.

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32 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

Yes, production of MW 50 may have been reduced in 'late '44 significantly. However, to say that aircraft were manufactured without MW50 tanks because of a shortage is just not true nor does it make sense.

 

 

Do your own research.

 

Many ACs were built without MW50, even G-14s:

 

Quote

In the "Baulosaufteilung Me 109 G lt. Programm v. 18.8.44" compiled at Regensburg on 4 Sept. 44, it stated that of the 2403 G14s being built, 835 would be G-14s, 200 would be G-14s without MW 50, and 1368 would be 109 G14 ASs.

 

What is a 109 G14 without MW 50? - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (12oclockhigh.net)

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10 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

You have to have stuff at the location where they were used. Just because there's some stock of something somewhere doesn't necessarily translate in immediate availability. The Germans were notoriously bad in allocating ressources, as each Gauleiter liked to be a little king. Thieves and looters are bad at sharing their spoils. I guess you didn't see the part were I mentioned "LOGISTICAL" issues

 

But I would doubt methanol was in short supply. In fact, it was a cerntral intermediate in the IG Farben process of synthesizing aircraft fuels. the entire porcess was in fact based on producing methanol and from there it evolved into making B4 and later C3 fuel. IG Farben succeeded in recycling isobutylalcohol and processing it into isooctane as well as Oppanol (polyisobutylen) that was used to adjust viscosity of mineral oils. Uh? methanol synthesis via direct CO2 hydrogenation - which is why the hydrogenation plants were hit hard.

 

Thus I'd go as far as saying that it was absolutely impossible that methanol was "not there". It was, and lots of it. But it well not have been made available to some for various reasons. I said during the time frame the conversation was based MW50 was not in short supply. I believe the G-6 was mentioned, that was early '44. 

 

5 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

 

Do your own research.

 

Many ACs were built without MW50, even G-14s:

 

 

What is a 109 G14 without MW 50? - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (12oclockhigh.net)

 

I have - and I disagree with yours!

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2 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

Uh? methanol synthesis via direct CO2 hydrogenation - which is why the hydrogenation plants were hit hard.

That is not really how they did it.

 

The IG Farben process started from coal. After the gasification process they used hydrogenation, followed cleaning and compression to get crude, distillation of which yield water, methanol and alcohol(s) as well as a fraction of Isobutylalcohol. (IIRC 16%).

 

Of course it was a good idea to hit hydrogenation plants, it struck the IG process at is very base and restricted almost all synthetic compounds available.

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This is from the same thread. G14s were produced late in 44 and in 45 without MW50 tanks:

 

Quote

Well, certainly those G-14s without MW 50 were built, especially by Erla, as proved by this document from Magg. Mario Bellagambi's (CO of 5s Sq. of 2° Gr. C. ANR) notebook, reporting the listing of Bf 109s of his unit and clearly indicating next to each one with MW 50 the abbreviation "met." for "metanolo" (methanol)...

It can be verified that all the G-14s of the listing belonging to the 4643xx and 4644xx batches were devoid of methanol injection. The same applies on a later listing with new arrivals (the complete document is included in our latest book on the ANR C&M published by Classic).

So, if the "Baulosaufteilung" report them as "G-14s without MW 50", why consider them differently?

 

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - View Single Post - What is a 109 G14 without MW 50? (12oclockhigh.net)

 

26 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

I said during the time frame the conversation was based MW50 was not in short supply. I believe the G-6 was mentioned, that was early '44.

 

Well if the MW50 was in "very short supply" when production ramped up and there was not even enough to instal on production 109 G-14s and FW-190 D9's which were supposed to have them as standard equipment, it stands to reason that there would have been very few available to retrofit to older G-6s which was the whole point of this thread to begin with.

 

As it was, in late 44-45, the LW had more new G14's and K4's in stock than there were pilots available, based on the production/loss figures, so there would have been no need for a whole scale retro fitting of G6's with MW50 equipment.

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Bremspropeller
1 hour ago, Sgt_Joch said:

Many of the early models were not equipped with tanks for methanol, which was in very short supply in any event.

 

There isn't a dedicated MW50 tank per sé in the Dora.

It's just the internal 115l Reichweitenbehälter, which on the early 1900PS Doras (no MW50 system fitted at all*), would most probably just be filled with regular B4 gas.

 

___

* e.g. Hans Dortenmann's aircraft

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47 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

I guess you didn't see the part were I mentioned "LOGISTICAL" issues

I was trying to make your point as well and I realize I have been confusing about that.

 

The Germans were indeed rather flexible in getting their production batches out of the factory. Brems gave a good example of that. They even constantly reduced standards of what a "completed aircraft" actually consists of. One thing that is certain, is that they couldn't make everything they would have liked to make and in consequence had to cut corners somewhere.

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59 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

I was trying to make your point as well and I realize I have been confusing about that.

 

The Germans were indeed rather flexible in getting their production batches out of the factory. Brems gave a good example of that. They even constantly reduced standards of what a "completed aircraft" actually consists of. One thing that is certain, is that they couldn't make everything they would have liked to make and in consequence had to cut corners somewhere.

100% agree with you. 

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

There isn't a dedicated MW50 tank per sé in the Dora.

It's just the internal 115l Reichweitenbehälter, which on the early 1900PS Doras (no MW50 system fitted at all*), would most probably just be filled with regular B4 gas.

 

___

* e.g. Hans Dortenmann's aircraft

 BINGO! Just because an aircraft didn't have a MW50 tank doesn't mean it was because of short supply. That's all I am saying! 

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Bremspropeller
19 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

BINGO! Just because an aircraft didn't have a MW50 tank doesn't mean it was because of short supply. That's all I am saying! 

 

Just to make things clear to the casual reader: There is no "MW50 tank" on any Fw 190.

They just used the 115l rear "Reichweitenbehälter" on the MW50 equipped airframes. That Reichweitenbehälter had been installed in the Fw 190A-8 already and was supposed to stretch the Anton's range on internal gas.

 

Aircraft that didn't have MW50 at all (like the 1900PS "Sondernotleistung" early Doras, which it seems weren't converted to MW50 later on), just used the tank with normal fuel, giving them additional range on internal fuel.

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Further Dividends From the Oil Attack

The attack on the synthetic oil plants was also found to have cost Germany its synthetic nitrogen and methanol supply and a considerable part of its rubber supply.

Germany, like other industrial countries, relied on synthesis for its supply of nitrogen and the synthetic oil plants were by far the largest producers. Sixty percent of the nitrogen production and 40 percent of the methanol production came from two synthetic plants. Monthly output of synthetic nitrogen in early 1944, before the synthetic plants were attacked, was about 75,000 tons. It had been reduced by the end of the year to about 20,000 tons.

 

Nitrogen, besides being indispensable for explosives, is heavily used in German agriculture. Allocation for the 1943-44 crop year was 54 percent of the total supply; allocation for 1944-45 was first planned at 25 percent and later eliminated altogether. Nitrogen for munitions was maintained by reducing the allocation to agriculture, but by the end of 1944 this cushion had been substantially exhausted. The supply of explosives then declined with the reduction in supply of nitrogen. It became necessary to fill shells with a mixture of explosives and non-explosive rock salt extender. There was a general shortage of ammunition on all fronts at the end of the war. There was an equally serious shortage of flak ammunition; units manning flak guns were instructed not to fire on planes unless they were attacking the installations which the guns were specifically designated to protect and unless "they were sure of hitting the planes!"

 

It is of some interest that a few weeks before the close of hostilities the Germans reallocated nitrogen to agriculture at the expense of ammunition. This was the result, according to Production Minister Speer, of an independent decision of his own that the war was lost and the next year's crop should be protected.

Methanol production, necessary among other things for TNT, hexogen and other high explosives, was as severely affected as nitrogen production. Allocations to the principal consumers was heavily cut, and eventually the production of hexogen was abandoned. The loss of methanol coupled with the reduction in nitrogen was followed by a precipitate decline in production of explosives.

 

The synthetic rubber industry also suffered from the attack on oil. Official German records on raw material supplies show that stockpiles of rubber were small at the beginning of the war -- at the most sufficient for only two or three months' consumption. Imports through the blockade were unimportant. The supply came from four synthetic plants, one of which was a small pilot plant; and two additional plants were under construction during the war. One of the major plants, located at Huels, was attacked as a primary target by the Eighth Air Force in June 1943 and closed for a month; it required three months to get back to 72 percent of capacity and seven months to get back to full production. However, it operated on gas from synthetic oil plants in the Ruhr; when these were knocked out in the summer of 1944, production was again reduced substantially. Production at Schkopau, the largest of the synthetic rubber plants, was lost because it was dependent on hydrogen from Leuna. Investigation of the two remaining plants revealed that production was largely eliminated because of attacks on oil plants of which they were a part. By the end of 1944 over-all statistics for the industry show that production of synthetic rubber had been reduced to 2,000 tons a month or about one-sixth the wartime peak. Had the war continued, Germany's rubber position would have become critical. No indication was found, however, that the rubber shortage had become a limiting factor on German war production or the movement of the German army before the war ended.

 

Except for oil and associated nitrogen, methanol, and rubber production, no parts of the German chemical industry were a priority target of the Combined Bomber Offensive.

 

United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Summary Report (European War) (anesi.com)

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19 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Just to make things clear to the casual reader: There is no "MW50 tank" on any Fw 190.

They just used the 115l rear "Reichweitenbehälter" on the MW50 equipped airframes. That Reichweitenbehälter had been installed in the Fw 190A-8 already and was supposed to stretch the Anton's range on internal gas.

 

Aircraft that didn't have MW50 at all (like the 1900PS "Sondernotleistung" early Doras, which it seems weren't converted to MW50 later on), just used the tank with normal fuel, giving them additional range on internal fuel.

 

@Sgt_Joch Meaning this was not a true statement:

Quote

 

Donald Caldwell wrote of the FW 190 D-9’s operational debut in his The JG 26 War Diary Volume Two 1943-1945 (pages 388 – 399):

.... Many of the early models[Fw 190-D9] were not equipped with tanks for methanol, which was in very short supply in any event.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

@Sgt_Joch Meaning this was not a true statement:

 

Many of the early models were not equipped with tanks for methanol, which was in very short supply in any event. 

 

what? of course it is, that is taken directly from JG 26 war diary, first hand account from German pilots, they would know what was going on much better than you.

 

As I said before do your own research, it is not my fault if you choose to show your lack of knowledge of what you are talking about to everyone here.

 

Methanol was in very short supply from mid-44 onwards. USSBS has a whole chapter just on that. Methanol was a priority target and production and stocks fell drastically throughout 1944, especially after mid 44.

 

Oil Division, Methanol (wwiiaircraftperformance.org)

 

you seem to be missing the point that based on Bremspropeller explanantion, what was in "very short supply" was obviously the Methanol.

Edited by Sgt_Joch
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4 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

 

what? of course it is, that is taken directly from JG 26 war diary, first hand account from German pilots, they would know what was going on much better than you.

 

As I said before do your own research, it is not my fault if you choose to show your lack of knowledge of what you are talking about to everyone here.

 

Methanol was in very short supply from mid-44 onwards. USSBS has a whole chapter just on that. Methanol was a priority target and production and stocks fell drastically throughout 1944, especially after mid 44.

 

Oil Division, Methanol (wwiiaircraftperformance.org)

 

LOL I I like how you use the term "lack of knowledge". 

 

Caldwell simple said "MW50 was in short supply! In late '44", which is a correct statement (note: I said that already, before you did). This is called INFERENCE.

You then IMPLIED his statement incorrectly by trying to correlate that either aircraft taking-off without MW50  or not built with MW50 tanks was due to a shortage of MW50.

 

Your logic is akin to saying several late war Spits were built with "clipped wings" because there was a aluminum shortage in the UK. Thus, the Mosquito was also built out of wood for this same reason. Which is not a true statement!

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well again:

 

 1. There was a shortage of MW50 equipment, many G14s were built without MW50 equipement, as shown from documents listed above.

 

2. Many D9s flew without MW50 as shown from documents listed above.

 

3. There was a "very short supply" of Methanol from mid 44, as shown from documents listed above.

 

I am not sure why you have such a problem understanding what are basic facts.

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41Sqn_Skipper
1 hour ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

@Sgt_Joch Meaning this was not a true statement:

 

 

Actually the statement is still true. They "were not equipped with tanks for methanol", but they were equipped with tanks for fuel ;) 

Edited by 41Sqn_Skipper
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Bremspropeller
2 hours ago, Sgt_Joch said:

what? of course it is, that is taken directly from JG 26 war diary, first hand account from German pilots, they would know what was going on much better than you.

 

I'm not sure about that. Pilots seem to be rather ambiguous about their crates - most of them not knowing any details about the airplanes at all. There wasn't any real transition-training for the Doras. Pilots just learned the RPMs for different rating-steps and that's it. I'd be surprised if any of them knew the difference between the 1900PS version, the initial field-rigged MW50 version (Oldenburg System) or the definitive, factory-installed MW50 version.

 

There's a nice pilot-comment of Karl-Heinz Ossenkopp, flying a "Sorau built" Dora with "much better finish" than other birds in the unit, overtaking Karl Borris' aircraft and leaving it in the dust.

Now, this could have been for a plethora of reasons, like MW50 vs 1900PS or really just a better surface-finish, maybe something similar to an engine gap-seal or maybe no ETC (which I don't think).

 

In any case, I wouldn't trust Caldwell too much regarding information on the Dora. There's very little physical evidence for the airplane "turning worse" or "having a reduced roll rate" over the Anton, yet he quotes the pilots saying so (despite other pilots disagreeing) and people quote him, taking it for the word of god.

The same is true for the less than accurate expression about "missing MW50 tanks".

 

 

 

Edited by Bremspropeller
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48 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

The same is true for the less than accurate expression about "missing MW50 tanks".

 

 

its not just Caldwell, Dietmar Herrman also details the operational rollout of the D9 and also details that many did not have a functioning MW50 system:

 

Quote

Hermann noted the following points regarding the Fw 190D-9's operational history:

The first thirty production aircraft were delivered to the unit (III./JG 54) at the beginning of October 1944.

[...]In September 1944 an equipment kit was installed which raised boost pressure and increased the Jumo 213 A's emergency output from 1,750 to 1,900 h.p. The installation was carried out on-site by Junker's Tecnical Field Service (TAM). This increased emergency power could be used at altitudes to 5000 meters. At the same time, use of takeoff power (1,750 h.p.) was extended to 30 min., while authorization was given to use combat power (1,620 h.p.) without restriction.

 

The Junkers technical field service visited III./JG 54 monthly. In October the number of Fw 190 D-9s on strength with the Gruppe rose to 68. Of these, 53 had been converted to 1,900 h.p. and one was delivered by Focke-Wulf with the MW 50 system. The remaining 14 were in the process of being converted and completion was imminent.

 

[...]In its November report, Junkers noted that all the aircraft of the three new Gruppe were being converted to 1,900 h.p. and that the work was significantly more difficult at frontline airfields where there were no hangers.

 

By the end of December 1944 there were 183 Fw 190's in operation with the increased performance modification, and 60 more had been delivered with the MW 50 system and were at the point of entering service. *

*  Dietmar Hermann, Focke-Wulf Fw 190 "Long Nose", (Schiffer, Atglen, PA, 2003)

 

FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials (wwiiaircraftperformance.org)

 

again according to Herrman, the tank was supposed to be used for MW50 only:

 

Quote

 In production aircraft it was planned that the MW 50 system could be used to draw fuel or methanol/water from the 115-liter tank. On account of delivery difficulties, however, it was decided to use the tank with methanol-water only, and this was dubbed the "Oldenburg System" (see III./JG 54). This system was installed in production aircraft beginning in November 1944.

 

FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials (wwiiaircraftperformance.org)

 

 

Edited by Sgt_Joch
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VO101Kurfurst
2 hours ago, Sgt_Joch said:

 

well again:

 

1. There was a shortage of MW50 equipment, many G14s were built without MW50 equipement, as shown from documents listed above.

2. Many D9s flew without MW50 as shown from documents listed above.

3. There was a "very short supply" of Methanol from mid 44, as shown from documents listed above.

 

I am not sure why you have such a problem understanding what are basic facts.

 

Nope.

 

1. A Small batch of cc. 200 G-14s that were intended to be training aircraft for the LW were completed without the MW 50 system, simply because it was superfluous for the task. From mid-1944, off the top of my head, the Germans produced around 9000-1000 Bf 109s with MW 50 system, yet there was an odd batch in this that didnt have the system, obviously because there was a shortage of cheap aluminium tanks with 1/3 of the capacity than the droptanks they throw away in the hundreds every day. Riiight. The whole MW system is made up by the most primitive of installations - a light alloy tank, filled with water, and two set of tubes to and from the supercharger. That's it. Its basically the same system as the drop tank on the 109, except, you do not drop it in every sortie, and you do not fill it with fuel, but with a water mixture.

 

2. Indeed. That is simply because the MW 50 system and the earlier fuel injection boosting system was not present originally in the 190D, but it was a later retrofit.

 

3. There was never a short supply of methanol. Methanol was a simple base stock for the ammunition industry first and foremost, and there was never a shortage of ammunition either. Compared to the requirements of the ammunition industry, the LW would require minuscule amount of methanol supply (assuming a totally unrealistic scenario of 1000 fighter sorties a day, with every single fighter having 5 mins of boosted flight at 180 liter boosting liquid per hour, half of that being methanol, i.e. 1000 x ((180/60)x5) x 0,5, would work out menthanol requirements at 7,5 tons per day for the entire LW fighter force, or 225 tons in a month. The real number was likely a fraction of that because planes seldom used boosting outside true emergency situations. 

 

That is of course completely disregarding the fact that there was no 'methanol boost' in any of these fighters - it was a water injection. There is a 'W' in MW 50 for a reason, because it is actually injecting water into the supercharger, and alcohol is largely just an antifreezing agent. Methanol is greatas such an agent because it is a cheap and readily available industrial base product in abundance, plus its a poisonous type of alcohol, which comes in handy when you have loads of young soldiers around. The German MW 50 boosting manuals are clear on how to create the mixture (mix 49.5% water, 49.5% methanol, 1% lubrication oil), and also that if methanol is not available for any reason, less methanol could be used in the mixture (MW 30), or ethanol could be used as a substitute (EW 50, EW 30), or even you can just use pure tap water. It works just the same, you just have to be careful not to find a large block of ice in your tank in a cold morning. Water is a substance in the most abundance on Earth. 70% of Earth is water. 70% of you is water. And as for EW 50, is also commonly marketed today as 'vodka', although it no longer comes with Schutzöl 39 flavouring. Well, the fa the cheap ones still do. 

 

Now as for Caldwell's book, it's Caldwells book.  Not the actual JG 26 War Diary, its a book. its just called as such, because it sells, and because it is partly based, amongst other things, on the actual KTB, but - surprise surprise - it was actually written and researched by a chap named Caldwell. Unless you insist that the actual wartime JG 26's war diary had accurate information on the names, serial numbers of shot-down Allied aircraft, fro example. Caldwell's book is great for everyday accounts, but it is hardly reliable on technical matters.

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Bremspropeller

You're mixing up a lot of issues here.

 

1) How can there be a functioning system, when the system isn't installed?

The first Doras were equipped with an overboost-system, increasing engine-power by 150PS. It had absolutely nothing to do with MW50.

 

2) MW50 (at first by the mentioned Oldenburg System mod and later by a changed factory-installation*) only became available in November.

Lt. Ossenkop mentions that his aircraft, delivered on 24 December 1944 was one of the few equipped with the MW50 system**  (as opposed to the 1900PS boost increase). That has nothing in common with any percieved lack of availability of methanol.

He also mentions seeing 605kph on the ASI, on the deck at single-digit negative degrees centigrade (MW50 engaged) on a flight between Christmas and Bodenplatte. That was the flight where he overtook Borris and was afterwards asked if he was keen on handing-over his aircraft. Which he naturally declined.

 

3) I think there was a switch or lever that would decide on the routing if the internals of the 115l tank - either into the fuel-injectors, or into the manifold. But I haven't seen any documentation on this. That way, the 115l tank could be filled either by MW50 or by B4 fuel. Since usung the tank with B4 fuel would rob the airplane of it's WEP, it probably was never used in the field.

 

Lastly, the methanol wasn't actually necessary, as the water did most of the job.

 

@ Kurfy:

Do you have any indication that MW50 was filled once and then not de-tanked, unless being used up?

There's a good chance that the MW would not be tapped into for several dozen flights, so naturally the stocks would also not be depleted with each flight, as not every flight would use it. It's not like GM, which would gas-out in a short period of time and it should be quite stable and happy flopping around in the tank, not being used for quite a while. Just applying some basic common sense...

 

___

*The Oldenburg System used supercharger-air to feed the MW50 from the 115l tank into the induction system The later MW50 system used a mechanical pump and offered greater performance.

** It is not clear whether this was an Oldenburg mod, or not. Ossenkop mentions his aircraft was a Sorau-buiilt 210... Werknummer and mentions it was "black 8".

On 17 April 1945 a "black 8" - Werknummer 210968 - was lost, when Uffz Karl Fröb crashed into Lake Schwerin. Fröb was Ossenkop's wingman on that mission. Ossenkop states his aircraft was lost during a bombing in early March. He flew a different than his usual aircraft on 17 April, stating his aircraft was broken that day. Ossenkop himself was shot down and captured that same day, not too long after Fröb crashed into Lake Schwerin. He might have mixed up a couple of things and the aircraft Fröb crashed in on that day might have been Ossenkop's "black 8". The Werknummer fits for an aircraft built in November 1944 and thus highly probably at least had the Oldenburg System installed.

Edited by Bremspropeller
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VO101Kurfurst
18 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

@ Kurfy:

Do you have any indication that MW50 was filled once and then not de-tanked, unless being used up?

There's a good chance that the MW would not be tapped into for several dozen flights, so naturally the stocks would also not be depleted with each flight, as not every flight would use it. It's not like GM, which would gas-out in a short period of time and it should be quite stable and happy flopping around in the tank, not being used for quite a while. Just applying some basic common sense.

 

I glanced over the 109K MW system manual (Teil 7B) I can't find any reference that it would need to be de-tanked periodically. It has some maintenance instructions, but those just describe some basics and warnings, like to to check and preferably replace the spark plugs after 25-30 hours, check the oil viscosity periodically (as oil will be 'watered up'), tank C-3 once you have set up the plane for MW operation (B4 only if C3 is unavailable), be sure you dry up to area around the supercharger if you have tested the system, because it can flood electronics etc.

 

There is not a word about emptying the MW tank periodically, however.

 

Obviously the tank would have to be emptied if it would be removed or prior to being used as an auxiliary fuel tank, but like you said, it's just common sense. It's just a big aluminium tank, filled with a water - methanol mixture. Methanol itself is not particularly harmful, corrosive, nor it would evaporate very fast like GM-1.

 

Plus as you can see, in practice the groundcrew did not care much and generously tanked up with MW 50, even on delivery flights. Hey, the manual says tank 75 liters (probably the maintain proper Centre of Gravity), but who cares, boss says fill the tank, then we fill the tank until it starts pouring out from it.

 

735FC341-EB08-4F22-9B24-8231DD542627.jpeg.7a7f48fe38edf8d9f28003d6ce9ec31d.jpeg

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4 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

the Germans produced around 9000-1000 Bf 109s with MW 50 system,

 

Typo?

 

4 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

3. There was never a short supply of methanol. Methanol was a simple base stock for the ammunition industry first and foremost, and there was never a shortage of ammunition either.

 

Methanol production, necessary among other things for TNT, hexogen and other high explosives, was as severely affected as nitrogen production.

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  • 1 month later...

Methanol was a so called "Sparstoff", meaning it was limited enough in quantity to remind people to save its use and to not waste it unnecessarily.

Another, more drastic term is "Mangelstoff", which means that there is a critical shortage of the respective material. Tungsten for example for most of the war was a Mangelstoff.

 

See also the Bf109G-14s MW-50 instruction card:

https://stephentaylorhistorian.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/bf-109g-14.pdf

 

Does not seem like the MW-50 tank had to be emptied intermittently. In fact it says on the last page under "Maintenance after flight" to refill the tank. The other points cover the spark plugs, MW-filter and oil check. There is nothing regarding maintenance of the MW tank itself.

Edited by Karaya
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