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Developer Diary 263 - Discussion


AnPetrovich
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Well thankfully not everybody has that attitude, otherwise we'd all still be living in caves. 

 

 

And that makes me think of this. 

 

 

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TheBlackPenguin
19 hours ago, daliborsky said:

no, old jet trainers in ex Yugoslavia :) The machine guns and "hud" were same as in P-47 :)

Nice!

 :).

8 hours ago, Elem said:

But it does. It's been said many times, even in this DD.

 

But, I have a life and didn't get to read through every single message....Thank you letting me know :).

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Su-27_dot_Com

What if the skill level of the pilot is used to influence the pilot's G tolerance? For example, an Ace would be more tolerant to the G effects than a Rookie.

 

Just a thought...

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On 10/17/2020 at 9:04 PM, Freycinet said:

I can see that the developers have decided to not follow my idea of all players sending in their BMI data for a personalised physical pilot profile. It is very unfair that all sorts of blubbery couch potatos will have the same G-tolerance as a perfect physical specimen such as myself. Oh well, I  guess I will just have to go back to European Air War....

 

/s  😉

I remember reading some years ago that shorter, slightly overweight and older men made better Stuka plots, can't remember where I read it. I should be great in a Stuka.........

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I read through all the notes, looking forward to trying out the new model. 

 

Reading about the fatigue indicator - small triangle that changes size based on pilot condition.

 

I wish the indication was done more with sound. I know there is sound as you enter high g turns, pilot huffs. If there was any kind of breathing sounds indicating the pilot is starting to get fatigued, to pulling g's, then recovery, etc, fully recovered, no breathing type of thing. Some volume adjustment for the effect, or ability to turn it on/off assuming not everyone would like that. 

 

But without being able to feel fatigue in a simulator. I think sound indicators might feel more natural than just the symbol. 

 

Just my 2 cents.  

 

Thanks for the hard work... 

Edited by WWDriftwood
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Could do less hearing or even having a version of tunnel vision that is blurry instead of darkness. Have darkness for g lock. Blurry/diminished vision in the "periphery" to simulate fatigue.

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We're all tired of 2020 at this point surely, why would we need to model fatigue??? I get enough of that IRL!
 

/kidding, but only barely

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  • Han unpinned this topic

Love this game and I know I speak for many when I say thank you for all the development work that IL-2 has put into this gorgeous flight sim.  I just wanted to add, respectfully, that the FC community is suffering silently (or at least quietly) with lack of FC specific updates and general improvements that are really needed to sustain interest from the veteran players and add new ones to the hobby.  Seeing fewer and fewer pilots on the FC server is heartbreaking to the passionate FC pilots and discourages new pilots from coming back.  Would you guys please help  by updating the damage model and addressing the other needed fixes sometime soon?  Much much appreciated.  Brian

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  • 2 weeks later...
x13aceofspades13

Ok, so this is my input on this, I would like a more advanced G force model, however this one is far too harsh, I can understand the pilot becoming fatigued, but it's kind of ridiculous when you are going in maybe a 3G turn and barley pulling back on the stick and the pilot is starting to pass out... I can understand the pilot becoming less and less tolerant of G forces as time goes on, but this is way too much!

There are instances also when chasing AI airplanes and they are twisting and turning around while you have been flying in a straight line for some time, you get on their tail and go into a turn following them... you start to black out and they just keep turning, then you are a sitting duck because any turn or maneuver after that and your pilot is barley maintaining consciousness.

Yes I would like a more realistic G force model, but this one is way too extreme, if people want to experience the effects of a less experienced pilot... maybe the player should have options of that, I have played flight sims where you could adjust how well your pilot deals with G forces, maybe that should be added, so if you want to fly with a pilot that blacks out after a single engagement and then going into a 3G turn, sure... you have that option!

On 10/22/2020 at 12:34 PM, WWDriftwood said:

I read through all the notes, looking forward to trying out the new model. 

 

Reading about the fatigue indicator - small triangle that changes size based on pilot condition.

 

I wish the indication was done more with sound. I know there is sound as you enter high g turns, pilot huffs. If there was any kind of breathing sounds indicating the pilot is starting to get fatigued, to pulling g's, then recovery, etc, fully recovered, no breathing type of thing. Some volume adjustment for the effect, or ability to turn it on/off assuming not everyone would like that. 

 

But without being able to feel fatigue in a simulator. I think sound indicators might feel more natural than just the symbol. 

 

Just my 2 cents.  

 

Thanks for the hard work... 


This is another issue I have, I don't know how fatigued the pilot is, even after he gets done with his heavy breathing it seems like it just takes a single hard turn at maybe 5G and all of a sudden for every turn or maneuver after that he is about to pass out under any sort of turn... I just think the G force model should be turned down a bit. If I was in the cockpit sure... I would probably be passing out too, but that's because I am not a experienced pilot who has flown hundreds if not thousands of missions...

I like most of the changes made, I just think the fatigue factor could be turned back a lot... or have it so the pilot recovers a little better.

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24 minutes ago, x13aceofspades13 said:

Ok, so this is my input on this, I would like a more advanced G force model, however this one is far too harsh, I can understand the pilot becoming fatigued, but it's kind of ridiculous when you are going in maybe a 3G turn and barley pulling back on the stick and the pilot is starting to pass out... I can understand the pilot becoming less and less tolerant of G forces as time goes on, but this is way too much!

There are instances also when chasing AI airplanes and they are twisting and turning around while you have been flying in a straight line for some time, you get on their tail and go into a turn following them... you start to black out and they just keep turning, then you are a sitting duck because any turn or maneuver after that and your pilot is barley maintaining consciousness.

Yes I would like a more realistic G force model, but this one is way too extreme, if people want to experience the effects of a less experienced pilot... maybe the player should have options of that, I have played flight sims where you could adjust how well your pilot deals with G forces, maybe that should be added, so if you want to fly with a pilot that blacks out after a single engagement and then going into a 3G turn, sure... you have that option!


This is another issue I have, I don't know how fatigued the pilot is, even after he gets done with his heavy breathing it seems like it just takes a single hard turn at maybe 5G and all of a sudden for every turn or maneuver after that he is about to pass out under any sort of turn... I just think the G force model should be turned down a bit. If I was in the cockpit sure... I would probably be passing out too, but that's because I am not a experienced pilot who has flown hundreds if not thousands of missions...

I like most of the changes made, I just think the fatigue factor could be turned back a lot... or have it so the pilot recovers a little better.

You base this on data, your personal experience flying real planes pulling high Gs and aerobatics? or just a personal opinion about the G forces?

Lots of work have gone into the new G forces modelling with lots of data , studies, and tests including real pilots input.

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Go back and read their original stated modeling goals, now do the G warm up as prescribed before you get into combat, your body needs to warm up and adjust to the loads, or your going to experience exactly the sorts of trouble your describing.

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x13aceofspades13
8 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Go back and read their original stated modeling goals, now do the G warm up as prescribed before you get into combat, your body needs to warm up and adjust to the loads, or your going to experience exactly the sorts of trouble your describing.

I have done a G warm up as described, the issue I am having is that I can after warmed up pursue a single plane successfully, and shoot it down, give my pilot time to rest so that he isn't exhausted, and then go after the next target, after the next target my pilots breathing has slowed significantly, to my understanding the breathing mechanic they have is a indicator of how fatigued the pilot is right?

The next target has been chased by another AI plane, and has twisted and tangled around and should itself be fatigued... I go to pursue that target, and in a turning circle that is nowhere near the G load that would normally cause my pilot to start to black out, but it does, and quickly my pilot is fatigued again... a slightly aggressive turn that's probably 3 at most 4Gs for short moments is quickly wearing my pilot out, a slow steady turn... but the AI airplane i am chancing isn't fatigued at all despite the fact it spent the last couple of minutes throwing itself into loops and spins and rolls, and while I am now struggling to maintain consciousness in a turn where I have just the slightest back pressure on the stick, the target I was pursuing is now taring on my tail...

So I have given my pilot time to warm up, I have done all that, the issue is the other enemy AI airplanes don't seem to get fatigued at all... what am I doing wrong?

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Mitthrawnuruodo
21 minutes ago, x13aceofspades13 said:

after the next target my pilots breathing has slowed significantly, to my understanding the breathing mechanic they have is a indicator of how fatigued the pilot is right?

 

Yes, but the breathing settles down well before the pilot has fully recovered, so it's not a precise indication. Recovery continues for quite a long time (as shown by the HUD fatigue indicator, if enabled). You are likely still fatigued throughout the fight unless you have a break between encounters with separate groups of enemies.

 

If you are convinced that the AI behaviour is out of line, try to record a mission for further analysis.

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x13aceofspades13
9 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

Yes, but the breathing settles down well before the pilot has fully recovered, so it's not a precise indication. Recovery continues for quite a long time (as shown by the HUD fatigue indicator, if enabled). You are likely still fatigued throughout the fight unless you have a break between encounters with separate groups of enemies.

 

If you are convinced that the AI behaviour is out of line, try to record a mission for further analysis.

I can attempt to record a mission, perhaps I should cave and enable the heads up display to see how long it takes for the pilot to recover as suggested... I just hate the HUD, I just like using the instruments in the cockpit and my studied knowledge to fly, don't like the HUD.

 

The other part of that is I did further testing last night, and intentionally engaged and shot down 3 ME-109s in quick mission with the simplified physiology enabled to see what would happen.

 

All three airplanes I shot down had shown no signs of fatigue, they themselves had no time to recover, and the only reason I wasn't blacking out was because of simplified physiology.

 

Also important to note that in some instances I experience this issue, Immediately after the engagement I always steady the airplane out and put it into constant power to give the engine time to cool, in this instance the pilot also appears to be recovering...

 

In one instance i did this, throttled back and went into a steady 2,000fpm rate of climb, my turns were gentle and slow and i would softly bank left and right and look around to spot enemies... by the time I spotted one my breathing animation (might i add was breaking up) had slowed significantly.... 

 

I then went into the direction of the enemy plane who was being pursued by two of my wing men, he was flying quite aggressively... I had been flying in quite a docile manner for quite some time now, in fact my pilots breathing had stopped to a steady breath in and out... for a long time... what could have been 5 minutes easily, I went to a steady turn that was hardly aggressive at all, my pilot began breathing heavy Immediately... the enemy plane spotted me and disengaged the other planes and came after me...

 

soon enough in just steady turns I was beginning to lose consciousness, the plane I was chasing was after all that time fighting quite aggressively seemed un phased... he easily out turned me simply because i could now only perform light turns without blacking out. 

Edited by x13aceofspades13
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I think the change in physiology is great now! that's how I imagined it. you go through stages of unconsciousness before you become unconscious, instead of falling into blackout too quickly. I can understand this kind of physiology. the maneuvering behavior and the sound of the draft when you pull the elevator, just great. I am very satisfied now. it is still a mystery to me why people kept laughing at me with laugh smiles before this change, because of my views. if my views would have been so wrong, the game would not have been changed accordingly. some of them still have to learn how to treat people who think differently with respect. it is sad but true.

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Based on this

 

https://goflightmedicine.com/agsm/

 

 

Quote

G-tolerance is influenced by several variables:  heart-to-brain distance, muscle strength, rate of G onset, anti-G suit effectiveness, and positioning.

 

Quote

Rate of G-onset is just as important as absolute number of G’s.  Slower G-onset allow for increased cardiac compensation reflexes. Studies performed in the 1940?s and 1950?s by the U.S. DoD found that without any strain or G-suit, G-LOC occurred at an average of 5.4 G’s at 1 G/sec rate) and 4.5 G’s at 2 G/sec rate.

 

I have a question:

 

After reading the Diary post for this thread , I don't see Rate of G-onset discussed as part of the new model., Just fatigue and time at certain g loads.

 

Is it part of the new model? (not a criticism just a query, as it can impact how we fly in game)

Edited by =RS=Stix_09
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Mitthrawnuruodo
5 minutes ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

After reading the Diary post for this thread , I don't see Rate of G-onset discussed as part of the new model., Just fatigue and time at certain g loads.

 

Is it part of the new model? 

 

Yes, the effects will vary to some extent based on the acceleration profile.

 

Within DD #263, the cardiovascular response is mentioned.

 

Quote

Warming up effect

 

Also, thanks to the improved calculation of vascular response, the new model has a “warming up” effect. It is when the first short maneuver at high +Gs is tolerated worse than the subsequent ones. It is also related to the compensatory response of the cardiovascular system, which needs time to “warm up” in order to maintain sufficient blood pressure in the head.

 

Quote

If the Gs are not pulled abruptly, but are rather gradually increased over 5 to 7 seconds, then such a temporary "crisis" of vision can be avoided. This is exactly what is implemented in the new model more clearly than in the current one.

 

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@Mitthrawnuruodo

 

Not quite what i was asking Ie different rate g onset leading to of g lock in shorter times, depending on rate the G is applied.

 

That's to do with tolerance buildup to g-loc on subsequent events and vision loss effects.

 

However I think I have found the answer in this post.(which is what developers have used)

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/64918-g-resistance-of-the-virtual-pilot-opinions-and-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=994334

 

This is a later study and contradicts https://goflightmedicine.com/agsm/

 

REF:
https://extremephysiolmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2046-7648-2-19

 

Quote

Results

The two new G-LOC curves differed significantly from previous curves in temporal characteristics and key aspects underlying neurologic response to acceleration. The new acceleration onset rate curve reveals that for onset rates ≥ 1.0 G/s, G-LOC will occur in a mean time of 9.10 s and is independent of the onset rate. The new +Gz-level curve demonstrates that G-LOC will occur in a mean time of 9.65 s for rapid onset rate exposures to +Gz levels ≥ +7 Gz. The minimum +Gz-level threshold tolerance was defined as +4.7 Gz. When +Gz onset rates are gradual, ≤ 0.2 G/s, G-LOC occurs in a mean time of 74.41 s. G-LOC did not occur earlier than 5 s for any acceleration exposure.

 

Edited by =RS=Stix_09
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  • 3 weeks later...

I just found something very interesting! 

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/wright-field-fw190d-9.pdf

 

image.png.db15e7e56bc867150cc76f1512a32ffe.png

I guess the these pilots didn't know that was to assist in handling high high turns. This leads me to believe USAAF pilots (these were test pilots so they should know...) didn't know that much about preventing G-LOC.

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  • 4 months later...
sturmkraehe

Very interesting discussion and data here! 

 

As far as I understand, different sources of data on g-load sustain has been collected.

 

A quick question: Is there some info in the data linked to body size and its influence on g-load sustain and the fact that post-war people tended to become larger?

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