Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
BlackSix

Fw 190 A-6 for the BoBP career

Recommended Posts

Please, check my info:

 

1) JG 26

Donald Caldwell The JG26 War Diary Volume 2:

Untitled-1.jpg.c2017b8a727890463ef06e58f0b31c82.jpg

I./JG 26 and II./JG 26 could have Fw 190 A-6 until early or mid October 1944

 

2) JG 11

https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg11.html

III./JG 11 could have Fw 190 A-6 until early October 1944

 

3) What about I./JG 2, I./JG 11, IV./JG 54 and II./JG 6?

Looks like they had only A-7/A-8/A-9 in Autumn 1944.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@BlackSix

I/ JG2

The 1st group of Jagdgeschwader 2 was in Conches at the beginning of 1944, the 2nd squadron in St. Andréde-l'Eure. In January 1944, the entire group moved to Aix les Milles in southern France. On February 20, 1944, the group then moved to Piacenza in Italy. Since the place was already occupied by the 1st and 2nd / battle squadrons 4, the group had to move to Castiglione del Lago on February 25th. Here the group was subordinated to Pilot 2. The group flew missions over the Allied landing head at Anzio and Nettuno. After moving to Diavolo on March 26th, the group returned to Aix les Milles on April 8th. On May 12, 1944, the group moved to Cormeilles-en-Vexin in northeastern France to be used both to protect the French coast and to defend the Reich against the air. After the start of the Allied invasion of Normandy, the transfer to Creil followed on June 7, 1944, in order to intervene in the fighting in Normandy from here. After heavy fighting and considerable losses, the group was transferred to Husum on July 13, 1944, to be gathered and refreshed here. For this purpose, Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-8 / R2 and A-8 / R6 were added to group 48. Relocation to St. Trond followed in August in order to be used again against the Allied Air Force. On September 4, 1944, the group moved to Mezhausen, where they stayed until the end of the year.

 

II/ JG 6

The II. Group of Jagdgeschwader 6 was created in July 1944 when the II. / Destroyer Wing 26 was renamed Königsberg-Devau. The pilots were retrained on the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 and the group was equipped with the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-8. Although equipped with the new Focke Wulf-190 A-8 single-seaters, the only briefly trained and therefore inexperienced pilots on this aircraft could not survive the Allied forces and suffered high losses during their missions. Already on August 22, 1944, the 2nd group moved to the Reims area, but was almost wiped out within a few days. The group lost 49 planes, 22 of them due to enemy action. At the end of August 1944, the remnants of the group moved to Bonn-Hangelar. In September 1944 the relocation to Eudenbach followed, in October to Hagenau and in December 1944 to Quakenbrück. From November 1944 the group received the first Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-9. From December 16, 1944, the group took part in the Ardennes offensive. In 1944, the group lost 130 aircraft, 60 of which were due to enemy action.

 

 

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Jagdgeschwader/Inhalt.htm

 

The book could help you, unfortunately I only have over the eastern front

 

51xIOvbD-EL.jpg

Edited by namhee2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, BlackSix said:

Please, check my info:

 

1) JG 26

Donald Caldwell The JG26 War Diary Volume 2:

Untitled-1.jpg.c2017b8a727890463ef06e58f0b31c82.jpg

I./JG 26 and II./JG 26 could have Fw 190 A-6 until early or mid October 1944

 

2) JG 11

https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg11.html

III./JG 11 could have Fw 190 A-6 until early October 1944

 

3) What about I./JG 2, I./JG 11, IV./JG 54 and II./JG 6?

Looks like they had only A-7/A-8/A-9 in Autumn 1944.

 

I would go with Michael Holm to answer the question whether or not there were any A6 planes present in 9/44 in the west. https://www.ww2.dk/

 

To be honest it is very doubtfull to find many of them still present in 9/44. Aside the odd plane in a stabsschwarm most were either faded out or lost in Q1/44. Remember the A6 is a 1943 plane and first defense of the reich units flew it from 6/43 onwards.

 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, sevenless said:

...

To be honest it is very doubtfull to find many of them still present in 9/44. Aside the odd plane in a stabsschwarm most were either faded out or lost in Q1/44. Remember the A6 is a 1943 plane and first defense of the reich units flew it from 6/43 onwards.

 

Bingo! This is why I was surprised the decision was made to go with the A-6 vs A-7.  With the knowledge that Pips (JG 26's CO) flew over the invasion point in a Fw 190A-7. :nea:

Anyway I./JG 26, II./JG 26 & Stab/JG 26 in Oct '44 would have had a mix of A-8s and A-9s in about even distribution.

Edited by JG7_X-Man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Besides the JG units, NSGr.20 also had the G-3 variant of the A-6 in its inventory throughout the timeframe of Bodenplatte.

 

10 hours ago, BlackSix said:

I./JG 26 and II./JG 26 could have Fw 190 A-6 until early or mid October 1944

 

The last I'm seeing of A-6s in I./JG 26 is August 1944, per ww2.dk. I would go with that date.

 

As for II./JG 26, the same site shows the last A-6s were out of service by the end of July 1944. Again, I would go with that date.

 

10 hours ago, BlackSix said:

What about I./JG 2, I./JG 11, IV./JG 54 and II./JG 6?

Looks like they had only A-7/A-8/A-9 in Autumn 1944.

 

Yes, that's right.

Edited by LukeFF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, the site https://www.ww2.dk/ contains initial and not always reliable information on the basing and armament of units. This site http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de has already more reliable data, which coincides with serious research.

In this case, I trust this book by Donald Caldwell more that I./JG 26 and II./JG 26 had A-6s on September 30.

 

About John Weal - he has written many books in the Osprey series, but unfortunately they also have many inaccuracies...

 

That is why I am asking this question here, after checking all the sources that have been available to me, in the hope that you have more serious and deep books that I do not know about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

Unfortunately, the site https://www.ww2.dk/ contains initial and not always reliable information on the basing and armament of units. This site http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de has already more reliable data, which coincides with serious research.

In this case, I trust this book by Donald Caldwell more that I./JG 26 and II./JG 26 had A-6s on September 30.

 

About John Weal - he has written many books in the Osprey series, but unfortunately they also have many inaccuracies...

 

That is why I am asking this question here, after checking all the sources that have been available to me, in the hope that you have more serious and deep books that I do not know about.

 

Blacksix, I also have Caldwell´s diary. Maybe one of the best books on a fighter wing apart from Barbas JG 52 diary. I skipped through it, and found that they lost their last A6 on 08/08/44 Ernst Schade flying Black 8 of 2nd/JG 26 (see table at page 317). I glanced through the book until 12/44, but after that 08/08/44 date all losses given by Caldwell in various tables are either A7/A8 or A9 planes. So I might have missed the table showing A6 being still in use with I./JG 26 or II./JG 26 on 30th September, but I only had a quick glance. Anyhow an A6 plane in 9/44 is a real oddball on the western front in a fighter wing at that date. Not so as a G3 config in a fighter-bomber unit however.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Blacksix, I also have Caldwell´s diary. Maybe one of the best books on a fighter wing apart from Barbas JG 52 diary. I skipped through it, and found that they lost their last A6 on 08/08/44 Ernst Schade flying Black 8 of 2nd/JG 26 (see table at page 317). I glanced through the book until 12/44, but after that 08/08/44 date all losses given by Caldwell in various tables are either A7/A8 or A9 planes. So I might have missed the table showing A6 being still in use with I./JG 26 or II./JG 26 on 30th September, but I only had a quick glance. Anyhow an A6 plane in 9/44 is a real oddball on the western front in a fighter wing at that date.

This table is located on page 484, Vol 2. I guess they may not have lost these aircraft after August, but they continued to have them in service.

 

I understand that this is an outdated modification for the fall of 1944, but we will soon have this aircraft and until BoN comes out, I would really like to fit A-6 in the BOBP career so that users can use it in this game mode.

 

36 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Not so as a G3 config in a fighter-bomber unit however.

Yes, I forgot about that, thanks. We have III./KG 51 armed with Fw 190 A-8/F-8 and G-3 in BoBP career. If G-3 modification is made (I can't promise it now), we will add it to the BoBP career.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

This table is located on page 484, Vol 2. I guess they may not have lost these aircraft after August, but they continued to have them in service.

 

I understand that this is an outdated modification for the fall of 1944, but we will soon have this aircraft and until BoN comes out, I would really like to fit A-6 in the BOBP career so that users can use it in this game mode.

 

Thanks. Yes I see. Could well be possible that some few numbers made it into fall.

 

Absolutely agree. The more options the player gets the better. Within historical reason, this is a game after all. I myself am a big fan of having units in BoBP which flew over the map area 44/45 although their airfields are slightly off the map area (IV./JG 26 by example or Ju 88 and He 111 equiped units). All that enhances the gameplay experience, which is IMHO more important than some bean picking airfield accuracy.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a numbers big data guy - and my rule of thumb is this:

When analyzing data, you want the data set with the most detail.

 

In the above case:  Michael Holm's data is clearly broken out by aircraft type. With Donald Caldwell The JG26 War Diary Volume 2 data, all the Fw 190As  in inventory (probably) are lumped into one big number.

 

However, with that said - a late '44 Career Campaign with A-6s would be considered "Semi Historic" at best. The data term would be "directionally correct" - which I hate!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, BlackSix said:

This table is located on page 484, Vol 2. I guess they may not have lost these aircraft after August, but they continued to have them in service.

 

I understand that this is an outdated modification for the fall of 1944, but we will soon have this aircraft and until BoN comes out, I would really like to fit A-6 in the BOBP career so that users can use it in this game mode.

 

I had a look at this table as well, and yes, I agree that September 1944 should be the last month they show up in both I. and II. Gruppen. But, past that date, IMO it doesn't make sense to keep them around. September / October 1944 is when you see the Germans really "clean out" older airframes, either through attrition or sending them back to the factory for overhaul.

 

An interesting note about that table is the column at the right, called "Limited Duty". It might be that those few A-6s still around were used for training / familiarization flights and not so much for frontline combat. But, that is just speculation - since they are in the list of planes available, I would include them for I./JG 26 and II./JG 26 up to the end of September 1944.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2nd chapter in the BoBP career starts on Oct 2, 1944 and from that date A-6s will no longer be available for JG 26. I think this is a good and compromise solution.

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BlackSix said:

2nd chapter in the BoBP career starts on Oct 2, 1944 and from that date A-6s will no longer be available for JG 26. I think this is a good and compromise solution.

 

I think so, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, the final question about Fw 190 A-6s is their presence in the III./JG 11.

I've only this book and there is no such info about modifications.

 

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Jagdgeschwader/Inhalt.htm  - says nothing about the A-6

Spoiler

Zu Beginn des Jahres 1944 lag die III. Gruppe in Oldenburg. Von den 34 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G waren 21 einsatzbereit. Die Gruppe wurde weiterhin zur Reichsluftverteidigung eingesetzt und schulte im Januar 1944 auf die Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A um. Am 13. Mai 1944 verlegte die Gruppe nach Reinsehlen. Nach Beginn der alliierten Invasion verblieb die Gruppe in Deutschland. Im Juni 1944 wurde der Gruppe die 2. / Jagdgeschwader 52 unterstellt und noch im gleichen Monat in 12. Staffel umbenannt. Am 24. Juni 1944 verlegte die Gruppe an die Ostfront nach Dukodowo bei Minsk. Hier wurde sie dem Jagdabschnittsführer 6 unterstellt. Von hier aus flog die Gruppe Jagd- und Jagdbombereinsätze über Bobruisk und Witebsk. Auf Grund des russischen Vormarsches mußte die Gruppe am 3. Juli 1944 nach Karmelawa, 12 km nordöstlich von Kowno, verlegen. Nach dem Verlust Wilnas am 13. Juli 1944 mußte die Gruppe am gleichen Tag nach Zamocz-Mokre, etwa 50 km südöstlich von Lublin verlegen. Wenige Tage später mußte die Gruppe erneut vor den anrückenden russischen Spitzen fliehen und verlegte nach Deblin und von dort noch im Juli 1944 weiter nach Radom. Am 1. August 1944 folgte die Verlegung der Gruppe nach Jürgenfelde. Ab diesem Zeitpunkt unterstand die Gruppe dem Jafü Ostpreussen. Im August 1944 wurde die Gruppe auf vier Staffeln verstärkt:
Stab III. Gruppe blieb Stab III. Gruppe
7. Staffel wurde 10. Staffel
8. Staffel wurde 11. Staffel
9. Staffel blieb 9. Staffel
12. Staffel neu aus der 2. / Jagdgeschwader 52
Am 15. August 1944 folgte die nächste Verlegung, dieses mal nach Nemaksciai bei Kursenai in Litauen. Am 2. September 1944 folgte die Rückverlegung der Gruppe ins Reichsgebiet nach Riesa. Während ihres Einsatzes im Osten hatte die Gruppe rund 125 Luftsiege erringen können. Dabei hatte sie 12 gefallenen bzw. vermisste und 11 verwundete Flugzeugführer zu beklagen. In Riesa-Canitz wurde die Gruppe kurzzeitig aufgefrischt. Am 18. September 1944 verlegte die Gruppe dann nach ihrer Auffrischung zum Einsatz nach Achmer, wo sie zur Reichsluftverteidigung eingesetzt wurde. Am 6. Oktober 1944 folgte die Rückverlegung der Gruppe nach Riesa-Leutewitz. Mitte Oktober 1944 verlegte die Gruppe dann nach Hustedt, um hier aufgefrischt zu werden. Ausgestattet wurde die Gruppe wieder mit der Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-8. Die zugeführten Flugzeugführer waren junge Flugschüler ohne Erfahrung und mit wenig Ausbildung. Mitte Dezember 1944 endete die ruhige Zeit für die Gruppe. Am 17. Dezember 1944 verlegte sie in Vorbereitung auf die Ardennen-Offensive nach Gross-Ostheim. Noch am gleichen Tag flog die Gruppe von hier aus ihren ersten Einsatz im Rahmen der Ardennen-Offensive. Bis zum Jahresende hatte die Gruppe 14 gefallene und 5 verwundete Flugzeugführer sowie den Verlust von 23 Maschinen zu beklagen. .

 

https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg11.html - shows 4 Fw 190 A-6 in September 1944.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Its for Single player, i think its good to try to give him ability to play with Fw-190A6 as long as posible, so if data on ww2.dk pages shows even one Fw-190A6 was present in squadrons, it can be set so player can be that single Fw-190A6 and others are just AI Fw-190A8s he dont have.

When you play on Allied side your fighting vs AI Fw-190A8s mostly if encountering that squadron it that time period.

To me this is good option to give players more missions in airplane he have and to be historical as data from there shows they had few of them still in September.

Edited by CountZero

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, CountZero said:

Its for Single player, so if by any chance player have only BoN but not BoBp i think its good to try to give him ability to play with Fw-190A6 as long as posible

No, it's impossible, player has to buy BoN and BoBP to play A-6 in the BoBP career. BoBP only owners will see AI A-6s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BlackSix said:

Ok, the final question about Fw 190 A-6s is their presence in the III./JG 11.

I've only this book and there is no such info about modifications.

 

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Jagdgeschwader/Inhalt.htm  - says nothing about the A-6

  Reveal hidden contents

Zu Beginn des Jahres 1944 lag die III. Gruppe in Oldenburg. Von den 34 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G waren 21 einsatzbereit. Die Gruppe wurde weiterhin zur Reichsluftverteidigung eingesetzt und schulte im Januar 1944 auf die Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A um. Am 13. Mai 1944 verlegte die Gruppe nach Reinsehlen. Nach Beginn der alliierten Invasion verblieb die Gruppe in Deutschland. Im Juni 1944 wurde der Gruppe die 2. / Jagdgeschwader 52 unterstellt und noch im gleichen Monat in 12. Staffel umbenannt. Am 24. Juni 1944 verlegte die Gruppe an die Ostfront nach Dukodowo bei Minsk. Hier wurde sie dem Jagdabschnittsführer 6 unterstellt. Von hier aus flog die Gruppe Jagd- und Jagdbombereinsätze über Bobruisk und Witebsk. Auf Grund des russischen Vormarsches mußte die Gruppe am 3. Juli 1944 nach Karmelawa, 12 km nordöstlich von Kowno, verlegen. Nach dem Verlust Wilnas am 13. Juli 1944 mußte die Gruppe am gleichen Tag nach Zamocz-Mokre, etwa 50 km südöstlich von Lublin verlegen. Wenige Tage später mußte die Gruppe erneut vor den anrückenden russischen Spitzen fliehen und verlegte nach Deblin und von dort noch im Juli 1944 weiter nach Radom. Am 1. August 1944 folgte die Verlegung der Gruppe nach Jürgenfelde. Ab diesem Zeitpunkt unterstand die Gruppe dem Jafü Ostpreussen. Im August 1944 wurde die Gruppe auf vier Staffeln verstärkt:
Stab III. Gruppe blieb Stab III. Gruppe
7. Staffel wurde 10. Staffel
8. Staffel wurde 11. Staffel
9. Staffel blieb 9. Staffel
12. Staffel neu aus der 2. / Jagdgeschwader 52
Am 15. August 1944 folgte die nächste Verlegung, dieses mal nach Nemaksciai bei Kursenai in Litauen. Am 2. September 1944 folgte die Rückverlegung der Gruppe ins Reichsgebiet nach Riesa. Während ihres Einsatzes im Osten hatte die Gruppe rund 125 Luftsiege erringen können. Dabei hatte sie 12 gefallenen bzw. vermisste und 11 verwundete Flugzeugführer zu beklagen. In Riesa-Canitz wurde die Gruppe kurzzeitig aufgefrischt. Am 18. September 1944 verlegte die Gruppe dann nach ihrer Auffrischung zum Einsatz nach Achmer, wo sie zur Reichsluftverteidigung eingesetzt wurde. Am 6. Oktober 1944 folgte die Rückverlegung der Gruppe nach Riesa-Leutewitz. Mitte Oktober 1944 verlegte die Gruppe dann nach Hustedt, um hier aufgefrischt zu werden. Ausgestattet wurde die Gruppe wieder mit der Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-8. Die zugeführten Flugzeugführer waren junge Flugschüler ohne Erfahrung und mit wenig Ausbildung. Mitte Dezember 1944 endete die ruhige Zeit für die Gruppe. Am 17. Dezember 1944 verlegte sie in Vorbereitung auf die Ardennen-Offensive nach Gross-Ostheim. Noch am gleichen Tag flog die Gruppe von hier aus ihren ersten Einsatz im Rahmen der Ardennen-Offensive. Bis zum Jahresende hatte die Gruppe 14 gefallene und 5 verwundete Flugzeugführer sowie den Verlust von 23 Maschinen zu beklagen. .

 

https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg11.html - shows 4 Fw 190 A-6 in September 1944.

 

12./JG 11 (former 2./JG 52) was refitted with 190s in Reinsehlen from 16/6/44 - 25/6/44. Highly unlikely that they received overaged A6 crates. I would go with ww2.dk on this matter.

 

I scanned and posted  the relevant pages of the JG 52 diary here:

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I read it, thanks!

I agree that 12./JG 11 cound't have old A-6 after refitted, but 9., 10. (ex 7.) and 11. (ex 8.) Staffeln could keep old A-6s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

No, it's impossible, player has to buy BoN and BoBP to play A-6 in the BoBP career. BoBP only owners will see AI A-6s.

Yes thats why i edited that part out shortly after post, i remenbered that you even would not be able to use bobp map that you would need.
Looking trough pages i noticed they had also Fw-190A5 in september if i nderstand it corectly

https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg26.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/2/2020 at 7:04 AM, CountZero said:

Yes thats why i edited that part out shortly after post, i remenbered that you even would not be able to use bobp map that you would need.
Looking trough pages i noticed they had also Fw-190A5 in september if i nderstand it corectly

https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg26.html

 

If you look at that closely, you see that the 1 Fw 190A-5 you see in September 1944, but none on hand until back in April, which was 1 on had too LOL. If I had to guess, that aircraft was used for training rookie pilots.

 

The last time II./JG 26 had more than 4 A-5s on hand was January '44 (5 aircraft).

 

Again, why couldn't the developers give us the A-7 which was more prevalent for the period?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

Again, why couldn't the developers give us the A-7 which was more prevalent for the period?

 

That's not the point of this discussion. If you want to discuss this further, then please do so in another topic. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

That's not the point of this discussion. If you want to discuss this further, then please do so in another topic. 

Copy that!

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...