SCG_Fenris_Wolf Posted October 27, 2020 Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) Hmm that correlates pretty tight with the performance difference in VR in which the Intels are massively better performing. But, we need more data to be sure. Quite a good indication though.. there is some bottleneck somewhere in the AMD lineup. Maybe it's really that. Thank you for running the test. The question is: If the bottleneck got found, could IL-2's developers remove it? Edited October 27, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf 2
Jaws2002 Posted October 27, 2020 Author Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) I think it's about the added latency when the main thread is jumping to anorher CCX. And it has to send the data from the cache to the main memory, over the slowish infinity fabric. Zen3 is supposed to greatly reduce the latency in the cpu, by clustering eight cores under shared cache. There's a good chance that in gaming the main thread will never leave the fastest CCX. Other improvements in single core performance will come from 200-300 MHz faster boost clock, 200Mhz faster infinity fabric and the ability to use 4000MHz memory effectively. Add all this on top of the 20% IPC gain and i think Zen3 should dominate the gaming side. Obviously, software built on crappy old code could still not take advantage of all this power, but i don't buy computer hardware for ten years old software. The old, performance cripling code that VR is using is one of the reasons I didn't get in VR yet. I may try that benchmark over thw weekend. Don't expect it to run faster than 3900x. I have to put my computer back together first. A Coolermaster 1200W, Platinum certified PSU died and killed my motherboard. I got the motherboard back from Gigabyte and replaced the PSU for a Corsair AX 1000W Titanium certified. Edited October 27, 2020 by Jaws2002
SCG_Fenris_Wolf Posted October 27, 2020 Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) You say it, but you also don't say it.. yeah, old code, but that's not "VR"... Only IL-2 - and to some extend DCS - although the latter are improving - suffer from that issue. VR games in general don't, these are the two use cases that are problematic. For me and many others, who field well clocking Intel CPUs, the question is only this: Do IL-2 (and maybe DCS) run better on the new Zen3 than on our Intel CPUs? My current CPU is not throttling in any other VR game or general game. None. Edited October 27, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
Jaws2002 Posted October 27, 2020 Author Posted October 27, 2020 We'll find out soon. There are plenty Il-2 VR players who will try it. I'll wait for reviews and benchmarks and if it's really fast i may just swap my cpu for a zen3 and overclock my memory to 4000Mhz to complete the package.
SCG_Fenris_Wolf Posted October 27, 2020 Posted October 27, 2020 42 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said: We'll find out soon. There are plenty Il-2 VR players who will try it. I'll wait for reviews and benchmarks and if it's really fast i may just swap my cpu for a zen3 and overclock my memory to 4000Mhz to complete the package. Same here
Jaws2002 Posted October 27, 2020 Author Posted October 27, 2020 (edited) Cool tweet from hardware unboxed: Hardware Unboxed (@HardwareUnboxed) Tweeted: Currently benchmarking the upcoming Ryzen 5000 series processors when it dawned on me that I've been able to test all these Ryzen processors in a single test system using the same motherboard. Meanwhile I need three Intel test systems to cover CPUs released in the same period. https://t.co/wRS8LO2vsT https://twitter.com/HardwareUnboxed/status/1320889479037554688?s=20 Edited October 27, 2020 by Jaws2002
IckyATLAS Posted October 27, 2020 Posted October 27, 2020 18 hours ago, robbiec said: Zen3 will be the last on the AM4 platform. Hold off if you can to the backend of 21 till AM5 arrives. ?
robbiec Posted October 28, 2020 Posted October 28, 2020 20 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said: Hmm that correlates pretty tight with the performance difference in VR in which the Intels are massively better performing. But, we need more data to be sure. Quite a good indication though.. there is some bottleneck somewhere in the AMD lineup. Maybe it's really that. Thank you for running the test. The question is: If the bottleneck got found, could IL-2's developers remove it? Pretty big disparity for sure. I'll have a look at tuning one of the Cores and try and bring back figures at different speeds. The API test has shown 4499 as the speed on the core used so I'll turn off PBO and rerun at 3800, 3900, etc and see if we can extrapolate the API IPC for AMD. My memory is set at 3600-16-17-17-36 with Infinity Fabric set at 1/2 or 1800Mhz. I've seen it boost to 4.6+ previously so while not massively tuned up, it's not running default either 1
Voyager Posted October 28, 2020 Posted October 28, 2020 On 10/27/2020 at 7:42 AM, robbiec said: I have a 3900X and it scored 1 925 137 topping out at 4499Mhz - Quite a ways off your i7 I was getting about 2 278 275 on my 3800X at a reported 4.45Ghz, but the 3800X is a single CCX chip, unlike the 3900. 3DMark API Overhead Results: Are API Draw calls the limiting factor for VR performance? - Virtual Reality and VR Controllers - IL-2 Sturmovik Forumhttps://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/66124-3dmark-api-overhead-results-are-api-draw-calls-the-limiting-factor-for-vr-performance/ On 10/27/2020 at 8:07 AM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said: [...] The question is: If the bottleneck got found, could IL-2's developers remove it? If this is the bottleneck, it looks like it is intrinsic to Dx11, rather than being Il-2 specific. Remember DCS and FS2020 are both seeing this same sort of difference, and they are both on completely unrelated engines. I think the only big similarities are both are DX11 Flight sims.
Gambit21 Posted October 29, 2020 Posted October 29, 2020 Well it's on. MSI MEG X570 on order. Ryzen 5000 CPU to follow when available. Gotta work out memory and of course the GPU which likely will be AMD. 1
chiliwili69 Posted October 29, 2020 Posted October 29, 2020 On 10/22/2020 at 7:18 PM, HunDread said: Few days ago I did not see any AMD CPUs on top of this chart now the 5600X quite considerably beats the intels. EDIT: adding link: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html There is only 2 samples for that score, it is still early but looks promising. If finally this is true that cheap will be perfect for IL-2. On 10/26/2020 at 11:26 PM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said: the PassMark CPU ST score is a "false" benchmark. That benchmark is a bit missleading. I was asking them in the past what tests were included in the page and they told me that they didn´t consider the overclocked tests!!. (ie beyond the Turbo freq of each CPU). So, all Intel K processor with freqs beyond turbo were not fraily treated since most of people use them beyond turbo freq. But lately it seems that Passmark changed that criteria since I can see now that they include baselines with freqs beyond Turbo. Passmark could report the data better, I already told them. They could just report a ST Mark versus frequency for each CPU, but they don´t want to do it. Or it is not easy to measure. On 10/27/2020 at 2:07 PM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said: there is some bottleneck somewhere in the AMD lineup. Maybe it's really that. When running the Remagen Tests we saw that R9 3900X and R9 3950X where having good ST Mark numbers but they were performing worse for an IL-2 CPU test in monitor. We were wondering if if the bottleneck was the NB frequency which was considerabily lower than Intel line. So a good ST Mark results doens´t translate directly in a better IL-2 (either monitor or VR). 1
HunDread Posted October 29, 2020 Posted October 29, 2020 What does this mean in AMD CPU specifications?
E69_Qpassa_VR Posted October 29, 2020 Posted October 29, 2020 1 hour ago, HunDread said: What does this mean in AMD CPU specifications? AMD and INTEL officially supports memory up to some speed in this case 3200, but you will be able to find in stores memories with 4000+. All comes down to your mother board, which will have a limited support in the BIOS for the RAM speed. I think by Intel my processor officially supports up to 2666 but I am running 3200 memories at 3600 (overclocked)
HunDread Posted October 29, 2020 Posted October 29, 2020 41 minutes ago, E69_Qpassa_VR said: AMD and INTEL officially supports memory up to some speed in this case 3200, but you will be able to find in stores memories with 4000+. All comes down to your mother board, which will have a limited support in the BIOS for the RAM speed. I think by Intel my processor officially supports up to 2666 but I am running 3200 memories at 3600 (overclocked) Thanks Qpassa. Wondering why they put it this way in their specs when they actually support more than 3200. Kind of goes along the lines of "do not dry your cat in the microvawe oven" safety notice?
Jaws2002 Posted October 29, 2020 Author Posted October 29, 2020 4 hours ago, HunDread said: What does this mean in AMD CPU specifications? Both intel and amd "officially suport" lower specs memory than what you ca run. DDR4 comes from the factory at those speeds, but they run just fine at much higher speed. Most of this high speed memory kits you see out there are factory overclocked kits and run perfectly fine. When you plug them in your system first time, you'll see them run at that low speed. But they all come with factory high boost settings that you can enable in Bios with one click. Go un Bios, click on XMP and you are all set. My Gskill 3600MHz kit is actually 2666MHz Samsung B Die, factort overclocked by Gskill to 3600MHz. It runs perfectly fine at this speed and i'm going to try to overclock it to 4000MHz if i get a zen3 CPU. 11 hours ago, Gambit21 said: Gotta work out memory and of course the GPU which likely will be AMD. All the leaks are saying the memory sweet spot for Zen 3 is 4000MHz. I think the infinity fabric on zen3 runs at 2000MHz, 200MHz faster than Zen2. 1
Jaws2002 Posted October 30, 2020 Author Posted October 30, 2020 More benchmarks and performance leaks. ? This time from SISoftware, for the 5600x and 5800x. https://videocardz.com/newz/sisoftware-release-early-ryzen-7-5800x-and-ryzen-5-5600x-reviews "According to the tests performed by SiSoftware, the 6-core Zen3 CPU is 15% to 40% faster than Zen2 CPU (Ryzen 5 3600X), while the 8-core 5800X is 25 to 40% faster than 3700X. The developer claims that the Ryzen 5 5600X was even able to overtake 8-core Intel i9-9900K processors, which is described as a massive win. When it comes to Ryzen 7 5800X, SiSoftware puts its this way: the 8-core Zen3 CPU performs like a 12-core Zen2 CPU (such as Ryzen 9 3900X), leaving 10900K uncompetitive."
LLv34_Flanker Posted October 30, 2020 Posted October 30, 2020 S! AMD was in a tight spot after the Bulldozer CPU. Lisa Su pointed out how AMD had to re-think their business etc. A risk that now pays off with very good products being delivered for the consumer. AMD has been using same AM4 CPU socket succesfully for quite a while and it has made upgrades pretty easy and straightforward. Only now after Zen3 there will be a change to a new socket, with Zen4 and AM5. PCIe 5.0, DDR5 and all that. Intel, and also nVidia, now has a very competent opponent. Hopefully it brings new innovations to all camps. Both Intel and nVidia can not just sit there twiddling thumbs anymore, neither can AMD.
robbiec Posted October 30, 2020 Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) Link to the Sissoft Sandra site directly. Some interesting AVX scores @SCG_Fenris_Wolf Sissoft preview I had another look at the API test - http://www.3dmark.com/aot/380657 Edited October 31, 2020 by robbiec Fix link
SCG_Fenris_Wolf Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) Robbiec, the website doesn't exist. Could you take a look at the link and edit to fix it please It would be very interesting! edit: referring to the first link, which is broken! The 3dmark link works but correlates to AMD CPUs' terrible performance with IL-2 Great Battles in VR. It's a Zen2 though. Hoping for Zen3 Edited October 31, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
robbiec Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 They had 3 separate links last night but converged to 1 of them. Link fixed. Apologies for confusion. 1
Voyager Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 @robbiec What's striking is your 3900 is getting only 1.9m calls, while my 3800 is getting 2.2m: http://www.3dmark.com/aot/378472 That is even though your chip is hitting 4.67Ghz during the test while mine is only holding 4.45Ghz I wonder what it would take to get the 3DMark folks to let this data be seachable? Right now it sucks that we have to post direct links to specific results.
Jaws2002 Posted October 31, 2020 Author Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) I got my PC running again yesterday. I tried this test a few times. top run: DirectX 11 Multi-threaded draw calls per second 5 005 310 DirectX 11 Single-threaded draw calls per second 2 423 634 DirectX 12 draw calls per second 32 232 561 Vulkan draw calls per second 33 066 126 https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/52377954? one more. https://www.3dmark.com/aot/380684 I also ran the Cinebench R20 just for kicks. Edited October 31, 2020 by Jaws2002 1
Gambit21 Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) I have 32gb of 3600 ddr4 on the way for the new Ryzen. (5900x) I’m thinking I might be better off returning and getting 16gb of 4000 instead. (32gb of 40000 isn’t an option right now) Edited October 31, 2020 by Gambit21
Mitthrawnuruodo Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Gambit21 said: I have 32gb of 3600 ddr4 on the way for the new Ryzen. (5900x) I’m thinking I might be better off returning and getting 16gb of 4000 instead. If you're looking for the best performance, timings are also important. Memory frequency alone does not tell the whole story. That said, I haven't seen a detailed analysis of memory scaling on the new CPUs yet, so it's hard to predict the ideal configuration. Edited October 31, 2020 by Mitthrawnuruodo
Jaws2002 Posted October 31, 2020 Author Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) BTW. I just downloaded and installed a very cool overclocking and undervolting tool for Ryzen 3000 CPUs. It takes some work to prepare the computer for it, but in the end it works great. It tests, overclocks and undervolts the CPU by CCX, instead of the whole thing and in the end it finds the best balance of power/ performance for each CCX. It's more useful for bigger zen2 CPUs, with more chiplets. 3900x, 3950x, and the new Threadrippers get a good boost in performance. It's called ClockTuner for Ryzen (CTR by 1USMUS). You can get it at Guru3d. https://www.guru3d.com/files-details/clocktuner-for-ryzen-download.html If you want to try it, make sure you read the guide: https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/clocktuner-for-ryzen-ctr-guide-download,1.html https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/clocktuner-for-ryzen-v1-1-ctr-guide-by-1usmus,1.html and a video about this tool: Edited October 31, 2020 by Jaws2002
Gambit21 Posted November 1, 2020 Posted November 1, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said: If you're looking for the best performance, timings are also important. Memory frequency alone does not tell the whole story. That said, I haven't seen a detailed analysis of memory scaling on the new CPUs yet, so it's hard to predict the ideal configuration. I'm having a hell of a time finding 16 Gigs of 3600 or 4000 memory that I know will work with the 5000 CPU's and my (on the way) MSI X570 Meg Unify board. QVL on MSI's site is of marginal help as the 5000 processors are not listed yet. Likely I'm sending the 32Gigs of cl18 RAM back when it arrives, and I guess I'll have to just sit back and wait a bit. Trying to get everything here before things go nuts again and shipping times increase drastically....you know it's coming. https://www.newegg.com/corsair-16gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820236575?Item=N82E16820236575 Best I can do so far. Looking at CL16 3600 options right now from G.Skill Might roll the dice and get one of those on the way. Edited November 1, 2020 by Gambit21
Jaws2002 Posted November 1, 2020 Author Posted November 1, 2020 This is the one i got last year: https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-288-pin-ddr4-sdram/p/N82E16820232860?&quicklink=true Back then Gskill released the Neo line, that was optimized for Ryzen. IF the new Ryzens can reliably run 4000MHz memory, probably Gskill may do another Neo line, for the new CPUs. But you are right. With the second lockdown looming, you don't know how the supply chain may work. 1
robbiec Posted November 1, 2020 Posted November 1, 2020 @Jaws2002 you can probably tempt your Neos into running @ 4000 easily enough. B-Die is B-Die, you just won't have the auto XMP setup. I'm running Team Group 8Pack 3200C14 but they also run at 3600 C14-15-15-31 (only found out last night :)) while trying to figure out why my API score is so low compared to you.
Jaws2002 Posted November 1, 2020 Author Posted November 1, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, robbiec said: @Jaws2002 you can probably tempt your Neos into running @ 4000 easily enough. B-Die is B-Die, you just won't have the auto XMP setup. I'm running Team Group 8Pack 3200C14 but they also run at 3600 C14-15-15-31 (only found out last night :)) while trying to figure out why my API score is so low compared to you. I'll definitely try to bring it to 4000MHz. The latency will take a hit, because the 2x16 GB kits always have higher latency than 4x8 GB kits, but are easier to overclock. If i swap my CPU I'll try it. If not, it would be pointless. If i overclock it, I could make a new XMP profile for it, using the Ryzen DRAM calculator. About my api overhead test. The 3950x was pretty well binned. That's why it was released six months after the rest of the chips, so they can collect the good cores for it. Even so, when i used the tool above to overclock and undervolt it, the tests showed that my chip is in the "bronze' quality. The quality of the silicone produced by TSMC increased dramatically. If you get a 3950 produced in the last two months, you are getting much higher quality silicone. The CPU is also water cooled with a pretty efficient 360mm Corsair AIO. Edited November 1, 2020 by Jaws2002
Gambit21 Posted November 3, 2020 Posted November 3, 2020 Returned my other kit and went with this instead Basically it's just CL16 instead of CL18, and still 32GB. I opted for more 3600 rather than less 4000 - I'll never know the difference and I need to get all of my crap here ASAP. After this just need the CPU and GPU - it will make for an interesting Thursday. 1
Jaws2002 Posted November 3, 2020 Author Posted November 3, 2020 600+ score in R20 single core, for the weakest cpu in the stack, is pretty damn impressive. I get around 525-530. That 4.95Ghz overclock looks juicy as well.
Jaws2002 Posted November 3, 2020 Author Posted November 3, 2020 Buildzoid got more information about the infinity fabric and memory controller of Zen3. Nope. The infinity fabric can't do 2000MHz. Dissapointing. I was hoping for 4000MHz memory to run in 1 to 1, but looks like Zen3 will be chocked, when it comes to high performance memory, just like Zen2. So Gambit21 you made the rightq choice.
Livai Posted November 4, 2020 Posted November 4, 2020 (edited) Interesting how here some really enjoy to waste money with higher mermory Mhzs using the Ram Speed Divider but don't overclock the BCLK, lol...... Edited November 4, 2020 by Livai
Jaws2002 Posted November 5, 2020 Author Posted November 5, 2020 Some gaming benchmarks showed up online. Looks like in fs2020 the 5800x dominates everything and by a solid margin. https://technosports.co.in/2020/11/05/first-real-benchmarks-of-new-ryzen-5000-series-processors-spotted/?amp ?
chiliwili69 Posted November 5, 2020 Posted November 5, 2020 Yeah! benchmarks for 1-core start to appear as well: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/ 1 hour ago, Jaws2002 said: Looks like in fs2020 the 5800x dominates everything and by a solid margin Yes, from that video the FS2020 seems to be another single-thread bottlenecked game and the new Ryzens looks good. Who any youtuber in the world can test IL-2??? They only OC the 10900K to 5.0. But I believe it could deliver more with proper cooling. But the Ryzens can do that as well. The interesting thing is that the 5900X deliver less than the 5800X or 5600X. Perhaps thermal throtling. 1
SCG_Fenris_Wolf Posted November 5, 2020 Posted November 5, 2020 5900 delivers less? I'm about to buy one in 47min. Damn, what now. It's the data you posted credible? Is there any addition to it? Ceteris paribus held?
SCG_Fenris_Wolf Posted November 5, 2020 Posted November 5, 2020 We will see, I just got a 5900X. Now on to hunt a good motherboard that allows for some pretty nice OC as well. 2
Jaws2002 Posted November 5, 2020 Author Posted November 5, 2020 The embargo will lift in five minutes, so we should be flooded with reviews soon. Congrats on your purchase! Get one of the X570 motherboards with strong power delivery. There should be a ton of reviews and benchmarks for those by now.
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