P-38 production blocks as modifications (also 150 grade fuel)

[DJBscout]

In-game, currently the 190A-8 has a multitude of options that change it from an A-8 to an F-8 or G-8, (with multiple sub-variants/modifications, such as the Sturmjäger package). Similarly, the Spitfire F Mk IX can equip a HF or LF engine, or clipped wings. The combination of the latter engine and clipped wings is incredibly similar to the Spitfire F Mk XVI (or may be the same, I don't recall the exact engine variant on the XVI and LF Mk IX).

Some of these features were field mods, but other required changes from the factory and/or major overhauls. For example the 190A/F/G-8 had different armor layouts, including around the fuel tank, which as far as I'm aware were not designed or intended to be field-modifiable.

 

In-game, many US aircraft lack similar modification options, despite even higher levels of similarity between a given variant, modification, or block. (e.g., the LF and HF Spitfires were given different engines from the factory but otherwise identical. Similarly, a late-production J-25 and early-production 38L were identical, aside from the different engines.)

 

What I suggest has several parts, but all pertain to the current "P-38J-25", which in my opinion ought to be changed to "P-38J"

 

Features of various blocks are as follows:

1. -15
   • no boosted ailerons (EDIT: information on influence of boosters on rollrate)
   • dive flaps (field mod)
   • 150 octane (optional, should IMO be allowed whenever the D-22 gets 150)
2. -20
   • "modified turbo regulator" (EDIT: The new turbo regulator prevents turbos from exceeding their maximum rated speed. That being said, according to the manual, the altitude at which a pilot needed to begin self-regulating the MAP for H through J-15 models was 30000 feet. This is a very high altitude, and is unlikely to require changing/modeling. That being said, it's also possible the J-15 lacked a manifold pressure regulator, though this is unclear, as the manual only specifies "late J models", and doesn't mention a specific block..)
   • no boosted ailerons
   • dive flaps (field mod)
   • 150 octane (
3. -25
   • boosted ailerons
   • dive flaps (built-in)
   • 150 octane (optional)

 

I'd like to begin with 150 grade fuel.

 

I suggest the addition of the 150 octane modification to the P-38J-25. While no 9th AF aircraft that I know of operated aircraft with 150 octane, multiple aircraft in Bodenplatte operate 150 octane, which would thus indicate they are Eighth AF aircraft. The USAF 8th AF did operate P-38s while using 150 Octane fuel, and from the documents that survive, P-38s used 65" Hg to test operational use, and were later cleared for 70", long before they were removed from service with the 8th AF.

 

Let's start with the easiest docs: 150 Octane and the various MPs aircraft ran with it.

65" Hg:

Spoiler

Use of 65" Hg (in the first squadrons to experiment with the use of 150 when it hadn't even yet been cleared for widespread use in the 8th AF), and likely future use of 70".

P-38s currently running 65" in early July '44, along with other aircraft running MPs below their current in-game max (this is before they were cleared for and began the use of higher settings. Thus, they all used higher settings when 150 was actually introduced.)

70" Hg:

Spoiler

Report of preliminary results recommending use of 150 octane and 70" Hg for the P-38.

 

Official clearance for P-38 squadrons to use 150 octane and 70" Hg manifold pressure

 

Performance figures for use of 70": (full report here)

Now, the trail to prove P-38J-25 existence in the 8th and their provision with 150 octane fuel is a bit long, but bear with me.

150 octane in use with P-38 squadrons, and operation of P-38s on 150 octane.

Spoiler

This document is records of fuel delivery to the the following AAF stations:

So, stations 375, 377, 373, 378, 356, 357, and 374.

Viewing this document created by the USAF, we can see that the units in those 7 stations were the 364th, 479th, 357th, 339th, 4th, 78th, and 361st FGs.

If we then cross-reference that list with this document by the Office of USAF History, we can see exactly which units used which aircraft at what times.

The ones that used the 38 at the time are the 364th (pp248-249), and the 479th (p351).

 

Now, the 364th transitioned to the P-51 in the summer of 1944, and the 479th transitioned from the P-38 to the P-51 in the period of October to December 1944. This is LONG after 150 octane fuel entered use. As a matter of fact, 150 octane fuel was the only fuel available on the continent. This means that there were operational P-38s in the 8th AF (where only 150 octane was available) as late as December 1944.

P-38J blocks in use with the 8th AF:

Spoiler

Now, a fair chunk of those 8th AF P-38s were indeed P-38J-15s. HOWEVER, I find it highly likely that later blocks also made it to the 8th AF units, especially the 479th FG.

 

The P-38 wikipedia page claims that L model P-38s made it to Britain in time for the invasion of Normandy. Now, that's not a very strong source. However, this book also says that 38Ls entered service with the USAF in June 1944, "in time to support the Allied landings at D-Day" (personally, I suspect this is a mistake, where whoever wrote the book likely read a pilot account and  mistook a J-25 with ailerons and dive brakes for a L model, or alternatively may have referred to the 9th AF. I am unaware if the 9th AF was operating 38Ls in June '44.)

 

Digging a little deeper, this site, which lists serial numbers of many aircraft, along with their assignments and/or fates, has a treasure trove of information.

 

When searching the numbers, one can find losses for the the P-38J within the 479th as late as December 1944 (SN 43-28823 was a 479th P-38 lost on Christmas of December 1944, confirming they were operating as late as December 44, [and possibly into the new year if this wasn't the last 38 sortie] This also has an accompanying MACR to lend it further credence). One can also find an assigned J-20 being lost in early July 1944, and (most importantly), there's the presence of SN: 44-23663, assigned to the "479th FG, 435th FS, 8th AF; code J2-O. 'Ruth'"  This was a P-38J-25. The existence of the aircraft code and naming indicates a more in-depth knowledge than many of the aircraft have listed. While I sadly cannot confirm exactly what the source for this information is, it seems that if the name and code are listed, it existed, and there is likely a photo. This plane being a -25 is further reinforced by its serial number being listed on this site as within the range for a J-25.

Thus, we have positive confirmation that there was at least 1 P-38J-25 operated by the 8th AF. This means that when the -25 was in production/being shipped to units, the 479th was still receiving P-38s. (given that the 435th FS was a particularly heavy user of P-38s and one of the last to transition away, it would make sense that they had later P-38s without the issues that caused the 479th to choose to eliminate the P-38 in the first place) There were likely (numerous?) others, but finding evidence is hard, especially given the all-but-identical outward appearance of P-38Js, making it nearly impossible to ID different blocks without seeing the serial number. Now, while one could argue that P-38J-25s running 150 octane were fairly rare, the same can be said for DC-powered 1.98 ata K-4s, yet those are also in-game, and in no small numbers.

 

Now, having discussed 150 grade fuel, I'd like to move on to the other modifications, and the features of various production blocks.

 

Firstly, I suggest the removal of both the default dive brakes and boosted ailerons to make the default P-38 in IL-2GB a P-38J-15. The P-38J-15 would fit quite nicely into the early-mid 1944 scenarios that are likely to emerge/be added to servers with the release of BoN, and would help server mods round out BoN lineups (this is essentially adding an additional plane to the BoN lineup with significantly lower development costs/requirements) 

 

Along with this, I suggest allowing the addition of dive brakes as a field modification, as kits were sent to the ETO (though not all 38s were equipped with these dive brakes).

 

The most reasonable and similar implementation seems to me be the addition of the following modifications/configurations. (I'm unaware what difference the turbo regulator between the -15 and -20 made, but if it's something significant, add that as another mod)

• None: P-38J-15/20
• New Mod 1: dive recovery flaps (required for J-25 mod to be available, image is top view of the wing with dive flaps highlighted)
  • "installed as a modification kit, these dive recovery flaps shifted the wing's center of pressure, effectively increasing the critical mach number of the P-38, greatly reducing the danger of high-speed dives"
• New Mod 2:  P-38J-25 (image would be a view of the wing from above with the hydrualic system/ailerons highlighted in a dark shade)
  • "The -25 production block of the P-38 included the addition of hydraulic aileron boosters, and factory standardization of dive recovery flaps"
• New Mod 3: 150 grade fuel
  • whatever description is used for 150 grade fuel on other planes

 

This set of mods allows for one to emulate various historical P-38 configurations quite easily, allowing for:

• 130-octane pre-Normandy J-15s (with and without dive flaps)
• 150 octane Normandy-era and later J-15s (with and without dive flaps)
• 150 octane Bodenplatte-era J-25s of the 8th AF (~July-Dec '44, and possibly slightly later)
• 130 octane Post-Bodenplatte J-25s of the 9th AF (as the P-38 was completely gone from the 8th AF by early 1945)

Edited August 28, 2020 by DJBscout
adding links to aileron data

[357th_Esco]

Let’s not forget the “Droop Snoot”. Another good reason for the P-38J to be a collector plane.

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Esco

[QB.Gregor-]

@DJBscout Thanks for the write up, I didn't even know it could represent a normandy area 38 that easily, would be awesome to have aswell as the 150 octane.

@Esco Well doing the “Droop Snoot” would require significant 3D-modelling and maybe flight model changes. It might even have to be a new plane. The mods proposed above can be done with very little changes. I'm not sure if the “Droop Snoot” would be worth it, I don't think too many players would want to replace the guns with a bombsight.

Edited August 27, 2020 by QB.Gregor-

[357th_Esco]

Any changes required FM changes, including 150 octane. I know plenty of guys who would gladly trade their guns to lead a flight (in a Droop Snoot) of P-38s with guns and bombs to a target at high alt. I would gladly lead the bomb drop. This would have a huge impact on gameplay because it gives players the ability to bomb from high alts with a late war plane (some people do not own Kuban for an A-20) This plane will force the Germans to go up high where the American planes perform better. I assume the weight of the bomber plus bombsight is roughly similar to the weight of the guns and ammo which are removed.

[DJBscout]

While I'm in no way opposed to a droop snoot mod (the more 38s the merrier!), I'd agree that this would require a fairly substantial FM change, and data on droop snoot performance is difficult to come by.

 

Meanwhile, the changes I proposed would all have fairly minor shifts, which as far as I understand would be fairly easy to do, and have well-documented and/or easily extrapolated performance shifts.

• The omission of the dive flaps would lead to an incredibly slight reduction in weight and wing drag
• The addition of 150 grade fuel would only require an increase in horsepower, as far as I understand the thermal and aerodynamic impacts of the increased power should work with the current systems without much further modification. Unless thermodynamic and power curves are manually set (which seems like an odd/unlikely approach?), it should be fairly "plug and play"
• the non-boosted ailerons would admittedly likely be less trivial.
  • However, I also have detailed test documents for the comparative rollrates with and without boosters. I also have docs for the 38G's 60° roll time and 360° degree roll time. Much of the "slowness" of the P-38's rolling velocity comes from the time it took to fully deflect the surfaces, shown in the massive difference between 60 and 360 roll rate, and the difference once boosters were equipped but at speeds where full deflection could still be reached. (EDIT: information here)

Edited August 28, 2020 by DJBscout

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

From the in game P-38 specifications:
 

Quote

- The aircraft is equipped with hydraulic aileron actuators, making their operation and good roll performance at high speeds possible. The actuators are turned on using a special valve on the left side of the cockpit and require at least 1200 psi pressure in the hydraulic system, so they should be turned off if there is only one engine running. In the sim, they are turned on and off automatically.

So in regards to the FM it should be already modelled how the plane would behave without them

[DJBscout]

Hmm, interesting. However, that is not with boosters removed, but with boosters off, which is a bit of a different story. A pilot will have to not just actuate the ailerons, but both the ailerons and the disengaged hydraulic system when it is turned off, which would increase stick forces, slowing roll rate. This gap is in no way insignificant, (EDIT: it's not so big as I implied, though still certainly noticeable, and no small matter at low speed.) as will soon be clear when I complete my post on P-38 roll data.(EDIT: Post below.) Suffice to say, I have the data to prove it.

 

@-=PHX=-SuperEtendard post with information below

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by DJBscout

[DJBscout]

Quote

The work of recreating this bird for our virtual world started a year ago, it hasn't been easy because of the many modifications you'll get with it . Essentially, it's not one aircraft, but several - you can choose the modification you want before a mission.

 

Sounds amazing! I'd love to see a similar set of mods implemented for the 38J, shameless plug below 

 

[357th_KW]

3 minutes ago, DJBscout said:

 

Sounds amazing! I'd love to see a similar set of mods implemented for the 38J, shameless plug below 

 

+1

 

Having an early (no aileron boost or dive brakes) option, along with the J-25, along with an F-5 (photo recon variant) and droop snoot would be awesome.

[DJBscout]

5 minutes ago, KW_1979 said:

+1

 

Having an early (no aileron boost or dive brakes) option, along with the J-25, along with an F-5 (photo recon variant) and droop snoot would be awesome.

Exactly! The J-15 P-38 would effectively be another BoN plane, with much less work than a whole new plane! Change the rollrate, remove the brakes, add aileron trim to the non-boosted 38s, (add 150 octane ), et voila! Whole new plane!

[SOLIDKREATE]

I agree with the "Drop Snoot" as a field MOD for recon birds since they are run on Combat Box.

 

Think a new A/C folder would have to be made not to mention a skin template. So when that MOD is selected the skins for that bird become available. 

 

Meanwhile I found this but I'm sure they have it already:

 

ARMY AIR FORCES
MATERIEL COMMAND
Flight Section
Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio

Memorandum Report On
P-38J Airplane, AAF No. 43-13563
27 October 1943

 

Subject:      Flight Tests

Section:      Flight

Serial No:   FS-M-19-1656-A

 

Summary

 

Level flight results of the P-38J, AAF No. 43-13563 were obtained with wheels up, wing flaps neutral, intercooler flaps flush, coolant flaps automatic and carburetor auto-rich.

 

Altitude Feet	b.h.p.	Man. Pr. "Hg.	Carb. Air °C	Engine RPM	Turbo RPM	Exhaust Back pr. "Hg.	True Speed MPH
10,000	1520	60	32	3000	18,300	39.2	375
15,000	1510	60	35	3000	21,900	40.5	391.5
20,300*	1500	60	42.5	3000	26,400	45	408
25,000	1300	50.2	33.5	3000	26,400	37.5	403.5
30,000	1090	41	26	3000	26,400	30.7	391
35,000	880	32.6	18	3000	26,400	24.2	362

 

Conclusion

Results of flight test on two P-38J airplanes at Wright Field indicated that these airplanes are unsatisfactory for tactial use above 20,000 ft. Considerable induction system leakage was encountered in both airplanes resulting in a loss of critical altitude of approximately 7500 ft. Additional trouble was encountered while testing the first of these airplanes at war emergency power in that one engine had to be changed and several revisions were required in the exhaust system before tests could be continued. It is believed that the P-38J airplanes at Wright Field are representative production airplanes and it is recommended that immediate action be taken to correct the leakage in the induction system, either through redesign or better production control of the manifold leading from the turbo to the engine.

 

For the full report see HERE

 

See also:

Memorandum Report on P-38J Airplane, No. 43-13563, FS-M-19-1656-A (Addendum #1)

 

---

 

ENGINEERING DIVISION MEMORANDUM
REPORT SERIAL No. Eng-47-1706-A
4 FEBRUARY 1944

Flight Tests on the Lockheed
P-38J Airplane, AAF No. 42-67869

 

Summary

 

The P-38J is designed as a high altitude fighter interceptor. This airplane has a fast rate of climb and performs well at high altitude, however, caution must be used in acrobatics and diving maneuvers at all altitudes to keep below limiting airspeeds. These airspeed limitations are low due to tail buffeting which may eventually cause structural failure and are definitely objectionable and hazardous from a combat viewpoint. The stability about all axis is good, the radius of turn is fairly large for a fighter and the rate of roll is fair at medium speeds, but slow at high speeds because of heavy aileron forces. The single engine operations, visibility on the ground and in the air and cockpit layout is good.        High speed and climb performance have been completed on this airplane at a take-off weight of 16,597 lb. This loading corresponds to athe average P-38 combat weight with full oil, 300 gallons of fuel and specified armament and ammunition.        The principal results are as follows:

 

	Max speed at critical altitude, 25,800' (60.0" Hg. Man. Pr. & 3000 rpm) = 421.5 mph
	Max speed at sea level (60.0" Hg. Man. Pr. & 3000 rpm) = 345.0 mph
	Rate of climb at sea level (60.0" Hg. Man. Pr. & 3000 rpm) = 4000'/min.
	Rate of climb at critical altitude, 23,400 ft. (60.0" Hg. Man. Pr. & 3000 rpm) = 2900'/min.
	Time to climb to critical altitude, 23,400 ft. (60.0" Hg. Man. Pr. & 3000 rpm) = 6.49 min.
	Service Ceiling = 40,000'

 

For more of this report see HERE

 

---

 

ENGINEERING DIVISION MEMORANDUM
REPORT SERIAL No. Eng-47-1749-A
5 JULY 1944

Flight Tests on the Lockheed
P-38J Airplane, AAF NO. 43-28392
Using 44-1 Fuel

 

Summary

 

The P-38J-15 is a twin-engine, high altitude interceptor-fighter. The airplane performs well at high altitude, having a good maneuverability and radius of turn when using maneuvering flaps. The rate of roll is fair at medium speeds and slow at high speeds because of high aileron forces. This is improved in later models by the use of aileron boost.        The principal results are summarized in the following paragraphs.        In level flight at 19800 ft., the critical altitude for 70" hg. manifold pressure, 3000 RPM, and 26,300 limiting turbo RPM, a maximum speed of 419 MPH was attained. At this altitude a high speed of 402.5 MPH was attained at 60" Hg. manifold pressure. At 24000 ft., the critical altitude for 60" Hg. manifold pressure, 3000 RPM, and 26,300 limiting turbo RPM, a high speed of 413 MPH was attained.        At sea level a maximum rate of climb of 4040 ft/min was attained at 70" Hg. manifold pressure and a rate of climb of 3570 ft/min at 60" Hg. manifold pressure and 3000 RPM. The service ceiling of the airplane was 39,000 ft., and the absolute ceiling was 39,700 ft.

 

For more of this report see HERE         MEMORANDUM ON 104 GRADE FUEL / 150 GRADE FUEL: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/Allison_V-1710-91_ENG-57-531-267.pdf     Edited September 28, 2020 by VA_SOLIDKREATE

[DJBscout]

I appreciate the sourcing, but it's important to note a couple things:

1. The issues with induction system leakage are fairly irrelevant to the in-game 38. All the aircraft in-game are assumed to be factory-fresh, well manufactured, and/or well maintained. Were this not the case, we'd have to model production flaws in not only the 38, but almost all late-war German aircraft. It would also add an element of randomness, and nobody likes RNG screwing over their dogfighting tactics
2. The data you provided is nice, but my charts are pulled from the exact same source. It's also interesting that one source mentions a climbrate for 70" Hg that another attained at a mere 60" Hg. IMO, the easiest way to clear up this discrepancy is simply to follow the current flight model (built as accurately as possible around 60" Hg), and to add the 200HP to each engine (reflecting the increase from 1600->1800HP that came with the 60->70" Hg increase.

(Frankly, 38 test data is a bit of a mixed bag, with contradictory results found all over the place. Don't even get me started on how indecipherable rollrate data is.)

[purK]

Bump

There's plenty of proof within this thread showing that some P38 squadrons operated with 150 octane fuel, from documented orders, delivery dates to their airfields, and performance charts. More than sufficient evidence for 150 octane P38s to be included in the game.

It would also be a welcome addition to make the P38s dive flaps and boosted ailerons their own aircraft modifications, which can be added or removed from the plane at the pilots or mission creators discretion. This would help represent an earlier block of P38 for the Normandy timeframe.

[SOLIDKREATE]

Wow almost to the year. I'm glad it was bumped. I would also like to add I think the 10 pack HVAR rockets should be added as well as a load out. Too bad the P-38 only had two torpedo prototypes. Cluster bombs would be highly welcome against vehicle columns.

 

Just waiting for my Warthog to get here I ordered two weeks ago...................

Edited September 18, 2021 by VA_SOLIDKREATE

[Bremspropeller]

49 minutes ago, VA_SOLIDKREATE said:

I would also like to add I think the 10 pack HVAR rockets should be added as well as a load out.

 

You mean the Christmas Tree? That's an L-thing

There were Zero-length-launchers for HVARs, but I'm not sure if there weren't completely replaced by the Christmas Tree racks on the L.

It's too bad there's no book on the 474th Fighter Group, as those guys certainly flew the latest and greatest P-38s over Europe/ BoBP map.

 

Then there's supposedly a 1st FG P-38L with those things under the wing:

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/p-38-lightning/p-38l-lightning-1st-fg-with-rockets-16/

Edited September 17, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

I always think it's a bit funny that all the Allied aircraft we got for Battle for Bodenplatte are from the summer of 1944. No P-38L, no P-47D-30/40, no full-bubble Spitfire. None of these options are incorrect and indeed they might well be the most common of those types available in the winter of 1944-45, but the overall lineup is a bit on the old side.

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

I always think it's a bit funny that all the Allied aircraft we got for Battle for Bodenplatte are from the summer of 1944. No P-38L, no P-47D-30/40, no full-bubble Spitfire. None of these options are incorrect and indeed they might well be the most common of those types available in the winter of 1944-45, but the overall lineup is a bit on the old side.

Its cost of wining the air war in 1944, they didnt have to send their best stuf, or even bather to make their best props prototypes, they knew jet is way to go in future so why bather making better props when war is won with what they have, and they have planty old models. 

In SP its no problem as your fighting just AI, and you can make missions look more historical in numbers of airplanes, so you can see benefit of old models in big numbers used. This is only problem for MP where you have unlimited numbers of players per sides, so you have fantasy settings on every server where you are forced to use old models but you dont have number advantages that were reason for use of old models in war. 

 

They can always just add as collectable airplanes, P-47M, Spitfire Mk XVIs, Spitfire Mk.21 or even some allied jets like Meteor III or YP-80 or add 150 oct fuel mods to P-38J or +13lbs to Tempest...

Edited September 19, 2021 by CountZero

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

1 minute ago, CountZero said:

Its cost of wining the air war in 1944, they didnt have to send their best stuf, or even bather to make their best props prototypes, they knew jet is way to go in future so why bather making better props when war is won with what they have, and they have planty old models. 

In SP its no problem as your fighting just AI, and you can make missions look more historical in numbers of airplanes, so you can see benefit of old models in big numbers used. This is only problem for MP where you have unlimited numbers of players per sides, so you have fantasy settings on every server where you are forced to use old models but you dont have number advantages that decided in use of old models in war. 

 

Right, but all of the aircraft I mentioned were serially produced in the hundreds and deployed to the Low Countries? They're not advanced unicorn prototypes, they're just the top end of what was in theatre.

[CountZero]

54 minutes ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

Right, but all of the aircraft I mentioned were serially produced in the hundreds and deployed to the Low Countries? They're not advanced unicorn prototypes, they're just the top end of what was in theatre.

Ones i mentioned were also used in west front in ww2 time. 

 

If you have option betwen Spitfire 9e or Spitfire 16 that you can use only late in 1945, you pick 9e for campaign as it can last longer in historical campaign. Or option betwen D28 that looks similar to earlyer bubble types used in bigger numbers for longer SP campaign, you pick that insted D30/40 that was used in small numbers compared to them ( that would look differant then them on top of that), or P-38J-25 that is in performance same as 38L model that was used even less then small numbers of P-38Js in west europe at that time, you pick J model, only mistake i see with it is not making dive flaps and aleron bost options in modifications, then you could easy use this P-38 in mutch earlyer BoN SP missions.

 

I also think selecting most used is BS when you give other side 262, 234, K 1.98s and so on...  but it will always be like this. SP is where they have big chunk of costumers how they say, so you pick what works for SP, but on axis you go for wunderwaffe suff, as no mather in how small quantities any of their airplane was build, just going from factory to test base was combat sortie for them, and they are now mythical creatures in mineds of aviation fans so they will always be more popular then some allied late war airplanes, as what if they were just build earlyer or in bigger numbers , Germans would win war for sure.

 

EDIT:
you could see that things changed in BoN, we got Spit14 insted early Spit9c that was used more, so now ppl ask for Spit9c as collectable  as its strange to have that early period without it. If they picked Spit9c, then it would be better for SP campaign. Best would be if they just ditched Ar-234 and used that slot for Spit9c. But for some reason you have to have 5 axis airplanes so you add airplane that fit BoBp campaign more then BoN, and sound of first jet bomber is better then another prop for atracting ppl to buy it.

Edited September 19, 2021 by CountZero

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

I always think it's a bit funny that all the Allied aircraft we got for Battle for Bodenplatte are from the summer of 1944. No P-38L, no P-47D-30/40, no full-bubble Spitfire. None of these options are incorrect and indeed they might well be the most common of those types available in the winter of 1944-45, but the overall lineup is a bit on the old side.

 

?

 

Bubbletop Spitfires were extremely rare in Northwest Europe, and those that were there were mostly not around until the spring of 1945 or postwar.

 

It's a similar thing with the P-38 and P-47 models you mentioned - the D-30/40s are late 1944 birds, whereas the D-28 was in use all the way from spring 1944 to the war's end. P-38Ls likewise were not that common in Western Europe, and far more of them flew in the Pacific. 

 

2 hours ago, CountZero said:

I also think selecting most used is BS when you give other side 262, 234, K 1.98s and so on... 

 

??? Gimme a break...

 

So, what else is supposed to be added to give the Luftwaffe some variety? People already bitch about there being too many 109 and 190 models in the game. It's the problem of the server hosts if they aren't restricting those planes you dislike where appropriate.

Edited September 19, 2021 by LukeFF

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

1 minute ago, LukeFF said:

 

?

 

Bubbletop Spitfires were extremely rare in Northwest Europe, and those that were there were mostly not around until the spring of 1945 or postwar.

 

It's a similar thing with the P-38 and P-47 models you mentioned - the D-30/40s are late 1944 birds, whereas the D-28 was in use all the way from spring 1944 to the war's end. P-38Ls likewise were not that common in Western Europe, and far more of them flew in the Pacific. 

All absolutely true and entirely justifiable, but I'd have held out for one weird plane. I think the D-30 is actually the most obvious candidate because while they were late 1944 birds... it's a late 1944 module. I guess this is the hindsight of post-Normandy talking though, now I know there's a D-22 Razorback the added value of the D-28 feels less worthwhile than the dive-braking, HVAR-slinging Armed Recon birds of 1945.

 

It's not really a complaint though, just a slight feeling of missed opportunity. Mostly I really, really hate those bloody Bazooka triple packs! Hate 'em on the Thud, hate 'em on the Lightning, hate 'em on the Mustang and when the A-20G inevitably arrives, in the fullness of time, I shall hate the double load of them twice as much.

[LukeFF]

1 minute ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

All absolutely true and entirely justifiable, but I'd have held out for one weird plane. I think the D-30 is actually the most obvious candidate because while they were late 1944 birds... it's a late 1944 module. I guess this is the hindsight of post-Normandy talking though, now I know there's a D-22 Razorback the added value of the D-28 feels less worthwhile than the dive-braking, HVAR-slinging Armed Recon birds of 1945.

 

It's not really a complaint though, just a slight feeling of missed opportunity. Mostly I really, really hate those bloody Bazooka triple packs! Hate 'em on the Thud, hate 'em on the Lightning, hate 'em on the Mustang and when the A-20G inevitably arrives, in the fullness of time, I shall hate the double load of them twice as much.

 

Aye, I will agree with you on the HVARs - I miss them as well and really wish I could find some evidence of them being used on the D-28.

[CountZero]

12 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

?

 

Bubbletop Spitfires were extremely rare in Northwest Europe, and those that were there were mostly not around until the spring of 1945 or postwar.

 

It's a similar thing with the P-38 and P-47 models you mentioned - the D-30/40s are late 1944 birds, whereas the D-28 was in use all the way from spring 1944 to the war's end. P-38Ls likewise were not that common in Western Europe, and far more of them flew in the Pacific. 

 

 

??? Gimme a break...

 

So, what else is supposed to be added to give the Luftwaffe some variety? People already bitch about there being too many 109 and 190 models in the game. It's the problem of the server hosts if they aren't restricting those planes you dislike where appropriate.

yes they ask for bombers, bobp give only fighters, insted 262 you could easy just pick any of the twin engined airplanes, but they wont be name drops like "first jet in game" is, insted 234 for bon you could also pick prop bomber, it would be more usefule in SP and online as it can be used earlyer in war as in late , but it would not be atractive as "firts jet bomber in game".

Ju-188, Do-217, He-177, other versions of Ju88, Ju87, all better options for gameplay then 262 or 234, also decision to add 1.98 mod for 109 just lead to bitching about lack of 150 mods for american airplanes and high boosts for british ones, so more free work needed just because axis got their wonder mods. So 150 for 38 and +13 for tempest are still missing.

So yes bs if you have other options but go for wonder stuff, i bet in next late war east front dlc axis will get more wonder planes, that wont be as usefule as some more comone ones as they can be used in campaing more and in MP.

Edited September 20, 2021 by CountZero

[Talisman]

2 hours ago, CountZero said:

yes they ask for bombers, bobp give only fighters, insted 262 you could easy just pick any of the twin engined airplanes, but they wont be name drops like "first jet in game" is, insted 234 for bon you could also pick prop bomber, it would be more usefule in SP and online as it can be used earlyer in war as in late , but it would not be atractive as "firts jet bomber in game".

Ju-188, Do-217, He-177, other versions of Ju88, Ju87, all better options for gameplay then 262 or 234, also decision to add 1.98 mod for 109 just lead to bitching about lack of 150 mods for american airplanes and high boosts for british ones, so more free work needed just because axis got their wonder mods. So 150 for 38 and +13 for tempest are still missing.

So yes bs if you have other options but go for wonder stuff, i bet in next late war east front dlc axis will get more wonder planes, that wont be as usefule as some more comone ones as they can be used in campaing more and in MP.

 

Also, historically the Allied side went big and plenty with larger bombers, but they are not represented in IL-2 GB either.  Still, never mind, jet bombers are being represented, so that is all right then.  I think you definitely have a point CountZero, but I can't see things changing any time soon.  The developers need to make money or we won't have a combat flight sim at all.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[gimpy117]

On 8/27/2020 at 6:48 AM, QB.Gregor- said:

@DJBscout Thanks for the write up, I didn't even know it could represent a normandy area 38 that easily, would be awesome to have aswell as the 150 octane.

@Esco Well doing the “Droop Snoot” would require significant 3D-modelling and maybe flight model changes. It might even have to be a new plane. The mods proposed above can be done with very little changes. I'm not sure if the “Droop Snoot” would be worth it, I don't think too many players would want to replace the guns with a bombsight.

but importantly not an interior model. the droop snoot had a bomb sight, so, bombsight functionality would be the only big change other than a modified exterior model. seems not that difficult in the grand scheme other than some W&B changes. with the prevalence of German wonder planes a few "odd duck" American aircraft would be cool (culminating with a P-80) 

Edited September 20, 2021 by gimpy117

[purK]

From the information below, we can see that the 479th Fighter Group operated out of Wattisham, England (Station 377) from 15 May 1944 - 23 November 1945, flying sorties over Normandy and even our Rhineland map. We can also see the time period they began converting from P38s to P51s beginning in October 1944, with their final P38 sorties most likely being flown in December 1944 based on reported P38 losses.

Now, based on the second document, we can see 150 octane deliveries to station 377 (Wattisham) beginning on 10th June 1944, at least 4 months before their conversion to P51s began.

I think we can conclude that their remaining stores of older 130 octane would have been used up rather quickly, and they had at least 4-6 months of operating time with P38s while being supplied with 150 octane fuel. If this isn't sufficient evidence that P38s operated with 150 octane fuel at squadron strength, and should be included in game, then I'm not sure what is. ?




 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Krupnski