Luftwaffe's Visual Lorenz system

[busdriver]

Here's a sample of what I'm trying to grasp:

Surface and Runways: firm grass surface. The Luftwaffe expanded Drucat in 1941 and by 1942 there were 3 concrete runways measuring approx. 1650 meters (1,800 yards) aligned NW/SE, 1600 meters (1,750 yards) aligned NE/SW and 1465 meters (1,600 yards) aligned E/W x c. 50 meters (55 yards) each. Had paved assembly areas at N and W ends plus connecting taxiways and perimeter tracks. Permanently equipped for instrument landings with a flare-path, a beam approach system and all 3 runways outfitted with permanent illumination and visual Lorenz systems.

 

Can any of the Luftwaffe experts shed some light (so to speak) on the visual Lorenz system? My inquiry is strictly asking about the airfield components (not the blind or instrument system). My first guess is perhaps the V/L (to borrow the RAF parlance) functioned like VASI or PAPI systems. 

 

Does anybody have a diagram of what a pilot could/should see on final, approaching the runway?

[LukeFF]

There's a bit of info from this book here, which says it was a long row of lights with crossbars at intervals: https://books.google.com/books?id=0uE2HNMbbacC&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq="visual+lorenz+system"&source=bl&ots=0a40kIfbyb&sig=ACfU3U3SSvo2KDW8eJomV3EONqttag0QnQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwijtoGoo6brAhWjKH0KHRY-A3cQ6AEwA3oECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q="visual lorenz system"&f=false

Edited August 19, 2020 by LukeFF

[busdriver]

Thank you kindly. I have that book. I've read anecdotes where Mosquito crews reported that the runway lights and V/L lights were off (or on) when they got to their target airfield. Since the Lorenz approach was a non-precision (lacking vertical guidance) approach, I wonder if the V/L was simply approach lighting or if there was some vertical component.

[busdriver]

@LukeFF looking for clues while continuing my research to get a better mental picture of the V/L system. I read these ORB entries. I deciphered the first highlight to read, "Melun E/W [east/west] V/L lit. One crossbar one mile from A/D [airdrome] and Arrowhead 2 miles." Apparently the Visual Lorenz system was simply what we now call "approach lights" but with extra features a bit further from the threshold. 

 

 

The second highlight also at Melun, I deciphered as "NE/SW [northeast/southwest] F/P [flare path] and S/W [southwest] Arm of V/L lit but no activity." 

[Jing1eJing1e]

Busdriver,

 

You probably realise it already, but it looks like visual Lorenz is used as well as a flarepath.  I found the statement:

'On reaching Gilze we found the airfield lit with flarepath and full visual Lorenz.'

in a combat report by Cy Walton in my Dad's logbook.

[Retnek]

Here's a pdf in the zip:

 

Finnish nightfighter training Germany 1944.zip

with the only first hand description I was able to find about German (late) war night-fighter air-field illumination. The report has been part of a website about Finnish WW2 pilots. Hopefully it just moved somewhere else.

This might fit to the Topic "visual Lorenz system", see the chapter "AIR BASE ARRANGEMENT" in the pdf.

There's the "Luftwaffendienstvorschrift LDv. 5/1 Der Flugbetrieb der Luftwaffe Teil 1 Flugdienstordnung" with some text (pp 99 ff) and pictures (Attachment 5, pp A20 ff) for the night flying operations, too. I can't put in the 25 MB pdf here, just the two most important pictures illustrating the Luftwaffe-concepts. Basics were developed by the Lufthansa in the late-20s and early 30s:

 

 

 

[busdriver]

@Retnek thanks for your post. Does your document explain how the lights I pointed at below differ from the red lights in the last 250 meters (or the end of runway "Querbalkenfeuer")? I'm wondering if these lights are perhaps amber. 

 

[Bremspropeller]

It just says "lights are placed during training ops" - no mention of their color, though.

[Retnek]

3 hours ago, busdriver said:

@Retnek thanks for your post. Does your document explain how the lights I pointed at below differ from the red lights in the last 250 meters (or the end of runway "Querbalkenfeuer")? I'm wondering if these lights are perhaps amber. 

 

Here in the LDv 5-1 (edition from 1943 afaik) is given one long line of white lights along the runway or landing-strip. That's the basic procedure. I suspect there might have been different, more elaborated night-light systems along the concrete or tarmac-runways of at large night-fighter bases like Venlo or St. Trond, f.e.

Pilots had to land next to that line on one side of it. For the side the beginning is marked with "Doppelweiß". The second white light of "Doppelweiß" points away from the side to use for landing (second light pointing to the left = land right hand side of the white line). Red lights were all about warning. Red was used to mark the last meters of the runway, airfield borders, huts on the airfield or whatever obstacles more. The red line crosswise to the landing path called "Querbalkenfeuer" marked the end of the runway and was intended as a visual reference for the horizon, too.

Temporary lights are shown in that "pierced amber" style. I doubt they were amber. I think this symbol stands for any kind of light. I.e. petroleum lights, flash-lights or even tin-cans burning some fuel. Just the primitive way IL2-GB forces us to operate at night, too.

After some time it still worked in my memory "visual Lorenz" ... I might have hm-hm-hm - 

Please check  MvStauffenberg-report Optische Nachtlandeverfahren fuer Jaeger May 1944.zip

 

This is a report made by one of the most remarkable female pilots, Melitta Gräfin von Stauffenberg.  (M. Gräfin Stauffenberg) It describes her investigation of an optical night landing procedure first suggested by an officer called "Opperman". She's making suggestions and adds features. Finally for landing the pilots looked through the gun vizier and additional lights were displayed into it via a half-mirror. This might have resulted in the impression of an "optical Lorenz system". This system was tested at one site near Berlin until mid-1944. Prominent night-fighters like H. Herrmann tested it, too. But afaik that procedure never was finalized or widely used.

 

Sorry, the source, clearly a Freudian oblivion:
Bracke, Gerhard (1990): Melitta Gräfin Stauffenberg. Das Leben einer Fliegerin. München: Langen Müller.
(Again one of these mortifying German authors, pain in the brain. If you're not deeply into the topic ...)

Edited October 27, 2020 by Retnek
source added

[AEthelraedUnraed]

I'm aware that this is a necropost. It seems there has lately been a policy change regarding those where old threads are locked as soon as anyone posts in them. Still, there isn't any official policy AFAIK and I feel my post is related to the previous ones and uses several of the sources mentioned in earlier posts. I think this outweighs the evils of necroposting. If any of the moderators disagree and this thread is locked, I kindly request a clarification of the current policy.

 

-------

 

I'm implementing runway lights in the game for the purposes of Nachtjagd. I've come across something strange in one of my sources though and I hope someone here can be of any help.

 

It concerns the following source:

"Leuchtpfad, verlichting om de 50 mtr aan weerszijden van de start en landingsbanen. Waar de starts plaats vonden, brandden groene lampen en langs de gehele baan witte tot aan het einde waar rode lampen stonden opgesteld." - "Leuchtpfad, lights every 50 m on both sides of the runway. On the takeoff side were green lights and along the rest of the runway white ones, up till the end where there were red lights."

 

The problem is, all sources I can find including the ones shown above only mention red and white lights. I cannot find any other references to green lights. Was this something unique to Venlo? Was it a late development that was only introduced later in the war (i.e. shortly before Venlo was overhauled in mid-1943)? Or is this simply an error in the source and were the lights white after all?

 

What do you guys think?

[Aapje]

The link you give is probably based on this book (in two parts):

 

https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/2-dln-vliegveld-venlo/1001004001562375/

 

Note that this is link is to a very cheap offering, so you might want to buy it. The others I saw were at least triple the price, and often only for one of the two books.

 

As you can see, the book is based on the archives of one Keulards, who is also referenced in the link you gave. Of course, just because it is in a book doesn't make it true. I have no idea how well-sourced that info is.

 

You could also try reaching out to this group of people that tries to keep the history alive:

 

http://neu.fliegerhorst-venlo.net/

 

They may have the information somewhere, or know an ornery old guy with an absurd amount of archives.

 

PS. Here you can hear the voice of Keulards, who seems to have lived through the war, so he's almost certainly dead now: https://limburg.75jaarvrijheid.nl/1944/2429361/ooggetuigen-venlo-19-november-1944

Edited March 23 by Aapje

[LukeFF]

23 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I'm aware that this is a necropost. It seems there has lately been a policy change regarding those where old threads are locked as soon as anyone posts in them. Still, there isn't any official policy AFAIK and I feel my post is related to the previous ones and uses several of the sources mentioned in earlier posts. I think this outweighs the evils of necroposting. If any of the moderators disagree and this thread is locked, I kindly request a clarification of the current policy.

 

As long as something useful is posted (as is the case here) in reviving a thread older than 12 months since the last post I'm good with it.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

On 3/23/2025 at 10:54 PM, Aapje said:

The link you give is probably based on this book (in two parts):

 

https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/2-dln-vliegveld-venlo/1001004001562375/

 

Note that this is link is to a very cheap offering, so you might want to buy it. The others I saw were at least triple the price, and often only for one of the two books.

 

As you can see, the book is based on the archives of one Keulards, who is also referenced in the link you gave. Of course, just because it is in a book doesn't make it true. I have no idea how well-sourced that info is.

 

You could also try reaching out to this group of people that tries to keep the history alive:

 

http://neu.fliegerhorst-venlo.net/

 

They may have the information somewhere, or know an ornery old guy with an absurd amount of archives.

 

PS. Here you can hear the voice of Keulards, who seems to have lived through the war, so he's almost certainly dead now: https://limburg.75jaarvrijheid.nl/1944/2429361/ooggetuigen-venlo-19-november-1944

Thanks for your reply. The book is indeed very reasonably priced, but nevertheless I'm regrettably not in a financial position where I can spend €30 on something as minor as the colour of the runway lights 🙃

 

I guess I'll try to contact the guys behind fliegerhorst-venlo.net.

 

PS. very interesting dialect spoken by Keulards. Not quite Limburgs and not quite Brabants. Kleverlands perhaps?

[Aapje]

13 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Thanks for your reply. The book is indeed very reasonably priced, but nevertheless I'm regrettably not in a financial position where I can spend €30 on something as minor as the colour of the runway lights 🙃

 

I thought that you may find the rest of the book interesting as well. If you care about getting the lights correct, you might to use this airfield for an entire campaign, to be worth the effort, and then the entire history of the airfield could be of interest.

 

But of course the decision is fully yours.

 

13 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I guess I'll try to contact the guys behind fliegerhorst-venlo.net.

 

Good luck.

 

13 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

PS. very interesting dialect spoken by Keulards. Not quite Limburgs and not quite Brabants. Kleverlands perhaps?

 

No idea, not really that much into such nuances.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

28 minutes ago, Aapje said:

I thought that you may find the rest of the book interesting as well. If you care about getting the lights correct, you might to use this airfield for an entire campaign, to be worth the effort, and then the entire history of the airfield could be of interest.

 

But of course the decision is fully yours.

Oh don't get me wrong; I would certainly find the whole book very interesting! And I'd definitely enjoy reading it even outside the context of campaign research. It's just that, knowing myself, it'd just get placed on the stack of "I'm-really-definitely-gonna-read-this-tomorrow-when-I-have-time-maybe-perhaps" books that I never get round to reading since I'm always doing something with computers... And as I said, my financial situation is not that good that I can spend €30 on things I might never really read.

 

The Nachtjagd campaign I'm writing already features Venlo in a couple of missions. However for the purposes of this campaign and limiting myself to what I realistically can do in the amount of time I've got*, I already have all documentation I need and I'm kinda wary of diving too deep into more sources. Except for these mysterious green lights, since implementing this would take me literally 5 minutes. It's just that I don't really trust the literally only source I found that says the Luftwaffe ever used green lights at all, and at this point I think it's about as likely that the source was mistaken as that there were actually green lights.

 

* I might get tempted to make a 1942 version of Venlo (i.e. before the 3rd runway was added), but that's another story.