"That" cockpit feature...

[DBFlyguy]

This preview vid from Wolfpack for Desert Wings: Tobruk got me wondering why we don't have "clicky pits" in GB

 

 

Its not a huge deal to me personally, but judging how the folks over at "buggy combat simulator" tout this as one of the things that make them "full fidelity" I have wondered why the devs here haven't just squashed that perceived shortcoming and added this feature.  It could help convert some of those using that other product to give the IL-2 GB series a more serious look.  Thoughts?

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by DBFlyguy

[[CPT]milopugdog]

Here we go again.

[THERION]

NO f***ing click pits in MY WWII combat simulator! NO!

 

Click pits in DCS (modern airplanes) do make sense, but NOT here. Period!

[DBFlyguy]

6 minutes ago, [CPT]milopugdog said:

Here we go again.

 

Is this a common question asked here? 

[Trooper117]

Jason has said time and time again it's not going to happen... I'm happy with that.

 

[DBFlyguy]

Just now, Trooper117 said:

Jason has said time and time again it's not going to happen... I'm happy with that.

 

 

Ohhhhh I wasn't aware of that, got it ?

[Lusekofte]

1 minute ago, THERION said:

NO f***ing click pits in MY WWII combat simulator! NO!

 

Click pits in DCS (modern airplanes) do make sense, but NOT here. Period!

I found the Click pit together with vr for P 47 in DCS very helpful. 
I have no «feelings»  of any sort against clickpit   I just know it aint gonna happen. 

[simfan2015]

I think it is incredible that we will still get this in Tobruk, taking into account so may warbirds were added in it !

It can't be easy with so many different systems and locations, even it being simplified compared to e.g. the DCS implementations.

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

That's why all VR users are very much into CloD stuff! 

But nobody listens...

[DBFlyguy]

2 minutes ago, [Pb]Slegawsky_VR said:

That's why all VR users are very much into CloD stuff! 

But nobody listens...

 

I use VR and prefer GB to CloD for various reasons but both have their strengths.  

[unlikely_spider]

It would be quite awesome, and add more immersion to GB, but I fear there are too many planes for that to be a feasible endeavor, for the development resources that they likely have.

Though a lot of the things that make click pits nice, like fuel and radio management, are not present in GB. I don't remember if they are in CLoD.

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

Fair enough but the potential is there.

130+ aircraft to explore in VR not to mention great looking damage models.

[SNAPKronovanX]

Well I've come to BoS after playing through 2 of the campaigns for CLOD Blitz and I have mixed feelings about it. Startup procedures are where I find clickable cockpits to be most appropriate and TBH the automated startup sequences in BoS feel lacking to me. My opinion is no doubt influenced by my spending a lot of stick time with GA Sims like FSX and X-Plane 11, where startup procedures are a big part of the challenge and fun.

 

On the other hand, clicking cockpit buttons in the heat of battle isn't something I particularly enjoy - whether WW I, WW II or modern era. I rarely flew fighters with full engine simulation in my CLOD campaigns, For the Blenheim though, where speeds are lower and defence is your crew gunners, it seemed more appropriate and I enjoyed clicking all that I could. I have a gaming keypad that easily allows for 50 keys/combos to be mapped to it, and its rare that I don't utilize it in some manner for a flightsim - even my GA Sims. So I manage just fine without a mouse-clicking UI.

 

Flight models are IMO king and are what makes or breaks a flight sim, and high fidelity, clickable cockpits won't save it if the core modeling is poor. That said, sitting through an AI bot having all the fun in BoS startups, is painful and even seems a bit silly to me.

Edited August 3, 2020 by SNAPKronovanX

[fogpipe]

I dont see the point of that feature in il2, except in those ww2 circa aircraft that were equipped with mice.

[Jonttu1]

35 minutes ago, [Pb]Slegawsky_VR said:

That's why all VR users are very much into CloD stuff! 

But nobody listens...

Despite the fact that CloD has no VR support?

[firdimigdi]

1 minute ago, fogpipe said:

I dont see the point of that feature in il2, except in those ww2 circa aircraft that were equipped with mice.

 

Or flown by people sitting behind a monitor.

 

In VR it would be OK to have if it's not a clunky implementation, which by definition the simple fact that you'd have to release your joystick to grab a VR controller would make it. So just for enjoying the immersion of a full on startup procedure I doubt it's worth the effort.

[Leon_Portier]

I dont have Blitz or Tobruk, but in the Dcs F-5 the clicking in the cockpit was a bit too much for me. So I like without

[Lusekofte]

15 minutes ago, fogpipe said:

I dont see the point of that feature in il2, except in those ww2 circa aircraft that were equipped with mice.

In dcs it saves you from a lot of key assigns. It is not for immersion. 
I simply cannot comprehend the negativity against it. 
I almost smell excessive fanboyism. 
I say thank you to everything I get, then I choose to use it or not. Because all clickpits being fsx fs 2020 clod or dcs you can choose to assign buttons too. 
clickpits prevent you from forgetting wtf you assign for that purpose in that plane. 
but in the software we have here. You can not assign buttons to a specific plane, you do it for all. And that is supported by jokers like you. I find it to be a very poor solution myself

[gn728]

Is it possible to turn it off if you don't want it - in either Blitz or DCS?

[unlikely_spider]

Just now, gn728 said:

Is it possible to turn it off if you don't want it - in either Blitz or DCS?

You can just map keybinds and ignore them if you want.

[fogpipe]

14 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

You can not assign buttons to a specific plane, you do it for all. And that is supported by jokers like you. I find it to be a very poor solution myself

While i dont care either way about clickable pits, I would very much like to see per plane control assignments.

[SNAPKronovanX]

2 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

... Because all clickpits being fsx fs 2020 clod or dcs you can choose to assign buttons too. 
clickpits prevent you from forgetting wtf you assign for that purpose in that plane. 

.....but in the software we have here. You can not assign buttons to a specific plane, you do it for all. 

Amen to that. Although I have a setup to handle any button assignment I might need, I've had to create some elaborate LibreWriter templates for my gaming keypad, joystick and 2 throttle quadrants and diligently map one out for every flightsim profile I create. Those are printed to PDF and are displayed on my tablet whenever I fly. Definitely a bit time consuming, but without them I'd be lost. Albeit, they do have the added benefit of helping me better learn the flight sim as I work through the process of creating one.

I'm new to BoS and not being able to save aircraft-specific HOTAS profiles has been a surprise to me. I thought it was just me missing something, but I haven't found anything that will let me do that.  I can't recall another flightsim I own that doesn't have that feature.

[simfan2015]

1 minute ago, SNAPKronovanX said:

I'm new to BoS and not being able to save aircraft-specific HOTAS profiles has been a surprise to me.

If you only fly/learn 1 (or a few) plane(s) it would indeed be ... a surprise not to have and use this feature.

But, to me personally, it is an almost impossible feat to learn and use several, in this case DCS, study-sim airplanes with different key layouts.

I am glad BoS allows me to try to master many/most warbirds (tanks being different) with just one keyboard profile.

After a few weeks I already forgot about that almost mandatory and plane-specific DCS-keyboard-layout and I mix-up everything.

Hope all of you are blessed with a *much better* memory than I am (I would even be convinced of it after reading the many answers here and at the DCS forums) !? 

[SNAPKronovanX]

25 minutes ago, gn728 said:

Is it possible to turn it off if you don't want it - in either Blitz or DCS?

I can't recall for DCS, because I haven't run it for some time.

 

For Blitz there's Realism checkboxes for "Complex Engine Management" (enables the need to properly operate prop pitch and mixture levers) and "Engine Temperature Effects", which requires you to pay attention to engine temp and take measures to prevent it from overheating. There's also also a checkbox for Mission Take-off and Landing, which if enabled will require you to do some cockpit clicking if thosee 2 above checkboxes are also enabled.  As with BoS, every Blitz command can be mapped to a key/key-combo or HOTAS button.

 

If you don't have those 2 checkboxes set, you can still click some cockpit switches and levers, but it's not necessary and you can ignore them. Cold & Dark startups aren't available in Blitz (at least up to Team Fusion patch 4.5 I ran), but IIRC they're there for Desert Wings -Tobruk

[LukeFF]

[Enceladus828]

Guys.

In games like DCS, X-Plane, MSFS, Dover series, it’s just an option: you can use either the keyboard, the mouse, or both, No one’s forcing you to always click things with the mouse, and thus can never use the keyboard. It’s also an option to get Battle of Normandy, if you like it get it, if you don’t like, then don’t get it, pretty simple.

 

I feel that at some point AFTER BoN is fully released that clickable cockpits should be added to GBs. It would just be a few things that have the option to be clickable, no where near to DCS, or IL-2 Dover series. Whenever the devs add 4K skins to aircraft, they don’t release them in just 1 or 2 goes, no. Instead they add them in stages, and I think that’s what they should do here.

To me, I generally like the option to click things in any flight sim, but that doesn’t mean that I always use the mouse. With landing gear and flaps I 99% of the time use the keyboard.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Novice-Flyer

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

1 minute ago, Novice-Flyer said:

P.S. Anyone who thinks that a clickable cockpit would only merit during engine startup and takeoff, obviously has a very simplistic understanding of aircraft systems.

Using mouse cursor in VR to operate aircraft systems is great, even in simplified version.

Fuel gauge in Spitfire has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum.

Just imagine switching fuel tanks in P51 when damaged... wait

Was this mentioned in recent dev blog?

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, fogpipe said:

While i dont care either way about clickable pits, I would very much like to see per plane control assignments.

Well this is the only time click pits make sense. But we wont get it, it is time Luke come and beat his dead horse. My point is the principe and negativity among users about it.

I am well aware of the capasity problem , but in my opinion it is up to developers to take care of

[gn728]

31 minutes ago, SNAPKronovanX said:

1 hour ago, gn728 said:

Is it possible to turn it off if you don't want it - in either Blitz or DCS?

I can't recall for DCS, because I haven't run it for some time.

I forgot in Blitz F10 and middle mouse toggles the camera to pan view in cockpit which is my preference. I just looked in DCS and didn't see anything that allows toggle to pan view in cockpit - but - lol- I could have missed it - there are a lot of view commands...... 

[AndyJWest]

One of the more notable things in relation to clickpits over at "buggy combat simulator" is how much effort those who have the time and/or resources seem to go into avoiding using them. Modern combat aircraft are complex beasts, system-wise, and while most probably end up using a mouse for some functions at least, those who can afford it seem to prefer lashing out a fortune on top-range HOTAS systems, along with additional switch boxes, Physical MFDs and anything else that avoids having to move a pointer around on screen. And having spent time recently trying to get half-competent on the Hornet and the Harrier, I can see why. The real aircraft use a HOTAS for very good reasons: things you need in combat you need to be able to access quickly, instinctively, and without looking at them (and possibly under a high G load, though that doesn't apply to sim pilots, obviously). And in order to maximise no-looking controls, many real-world HOTAS buttons serve multiple functions depending on context, despite the obvious opportunity for confusion that can lead to.  Switches, interactive displays, dials etc are generally restricted to things you'll have more time to operate, in a context where taking your eyes off what is going on outside is less significant. 

 

This particular long-running debate is often confused by people conflating complex systems modelling with clickpits, which isn't helpful, either. They are separate issues, and should be discussed as such. And people advocating for clickpits (along with more complex system management) should probably ask themselves whether they would be prepared to pay the prices that DCS asks for them. And put up with the additional opportunity for bugs they seem to generate. My ongoing love-hate relationship with DCS seems to cycle between amazement that I can do such things as adjust the gain in the air-to-ground radar display on an MFD, to asking myself why I need to adjust the gain at all to be able to see a 400-ft-long steel ship on radar, and to asking myself whether flying a Fokker Eindekker instead. The view is just as good, it still shoots nasty stuff out the front, and I don't have to read a 200-page manual in order to fly it. ?

 

 

[Enceladus828]

4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

@LukeFF@AndyJWest@anyone else.

There is sooo much I want to say here, but I’ll just keep it to this.

May I suggest that if you guys want to make a point that the OPTION to click things in aircraft cockpits should NEVER be added to IL-2 GBs, EVER, and that the OPTION to click things in an aircraft cockpit is something that should NEVER have been invented, then how about you destroy your mouse with a hammer or by running it over with your vehicle, etc.

Afterwards you can figure it out yourself how to load IL-2 GBs by just using the keyboard and without using the mouse.

 

Cheers.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Novice-Flyer

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I can understand it more for VR players who want clickpits as they are trapped in their virtual world and can't see their HOTAS setup or keyboard. Having said that, this isn't a study sim and while clicking things with your mouse is all well and good, it gets mighty boring after the 1000th time you have done it. All the controls that I need are mapped to the HOTAS. I can imagine  (as a 2D player) that I'm reaching for the gear release as I flip the switch that is mapped to "gear". 

[SNAPKronovanX]

TBH from a players perspective, I've never understood the study vs survey sim argument as a reason for not having aircraft with clickable cockpits.  From a Dev studios's  perspective, where how you allocate resources and spend dev $s impacts profitability, for sure it make sense; goes as far back as the days of Jane's survey sims vs Microproses' study sims.  If a Dev studio doesn't think they can create a profitable survey sim with a highly simulated environment as well as aircraft with clickable cockpits, by all means they shouldn't do it.  In every flight sim (combat or GA) with clickable cockpits though, there's also the option for players to instead just use equivalent key presses or map command to device buttons - an industry standard that's been around for quite some time.  As I said earlier, I'm not interested in clicking buttons or click-pulling levers in the heat of battle, but I do recognize that other players are and I don't want to limit their options. I mean there's nothing saying that just because a survey sim has clickable cockpits, that its aircraft modelling suddenly needs to be ramped up to be on par with a study sim. 

[BraveSirRobin]

18 minutes ago, SNAPKronovanX said:

 As I said earlier, I'm not interested in clicking buttons or click-pulling levers in the heat of battle, but I do recognize that other players are and I don't want to limit their options.

That’s not your call anyways.  The developer decided to limit their options years ago.  Which is when the argument ended.  They’re not adding click pits.

[DD_Arthur]

9 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 They’re not adding click pits.

 

Thank goodness.

[SNAPKronovanX]

6 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

That’s not your call anyways.  The developer decided to limit their options years ago.  Which is when the argument ended.  They’re not adding click pits.

OK...so where did you get from what I said that I was expressing some sense of entitlement? Did you not read this party of my reply?

Quote

From a Dev studios's  perspective, where how you allocate resources and spend dev $s impacts profitability, for sure it make sense; goes as far back as the days of Jane's survey sims vs Microproses' study sims.  If a Dev studio doesn't think they can create a profitable survey sim with a highly simulated environment as well as aircraft with clickable cockpits, by all means they shouldn't do it.

I get that this is 777 Studios and 1C Game Studios' creation and that they made that call long ago and won't be adding clickable cockpits - been quoted a few times in this thread. I was making the statement you quoted figuratively and as part of a wider discussion. The whole gist of my comment was that from a player's perspective, I don't get the argument that clickable cockpits are somehow only a study sim feature.

[BraveSirRobin]

54 minutes ago, SNAPKronovanX said:

OK...so where did you get from what I said that I was expressing some sense of entitlement?

 

2 hours ago, SNAPKronovanX said:

 and I don't want to limit their options. 

 

[SharpeXB]

Do people have short memories? You all should realize that clicky pit aircraft was another thing that broke the bank for CloD.

A clickable cockpit aircraft in any sim costs anywhere between $30-$60 apiece. IL-2GB sells 10 aircraft for that price. Just do the math. CloD had 12 flyable aircraft but sold them all for $49. DCS sells a single aircraft for the price of 10 in IL-2 ergo a clickpit aircraft is 10x the cost of a non-clicky one. 
And don’t compare any of these combat flight sims to the MS behemoth

 

And the problem with having them in WWII era aircraft is that they’re essentially used just to start the plane. Once that’s done they aren’t useful. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by SharpeXB

[BraveSirRobin]

4 hours ago, Novice-Flyer said:

@LukeFF@AndyJWest@anyone else.

There is sooo much I want to say here, but I’ll just keep it to this.

May I suggest that if you guys want to make a point that the OPTION to click things in aircraft cockpits should NEVER be added to IL-2 GBs, EVER, and that the OPTION to click things in an aircraft cockpit is something that should NEVER have been invented, then how about you destroy your mouse with a hammer or by running it over with your vehicle, etc.

Afterwards you can figure it out yourself how to load IL-2 GBs by just using the keyboard and without using the mouse.

 

Cheers.

 

This post makes absolutely no sense.

[Enceladus828]

12 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Do people have short memories? You all should realize that clicky pit aircraft was another thing that broke the bank for CloD.

A clickable cockpit aircraft in any sim costs anywhere between $30-$60 apiece. IL-2GB sells 10 aircraft for that price. Just do the math. CloD had 12 flyable aircraft but sold them all for $49. DCS sells a single aircraft for the price of 10 in IL-2 ergo a clickpit aircraft is 10x the cost of a non-clicky one. 
And don’t compare any of these combat flight sims to the MS behemoth

Yeah well CloD Blitz has click pits and has 48 flyable aircraft/variants that cost $25 US, the Tobruk expansion has 40+ aircraft/variants costing $60-70 US.

I’m sure that if the devs ever did add them, it would only be for a few things— no where near the amount of things that one can click in DCS, IL-2 Dover series.

12 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

And the problem with having them in WWII era aircraft is that they’re essentially used just to start the plane. Once that’s done they aren’t useful. 

Lol, No.

Things like Mixture for each engine, prop pitch, elevator trim (and then there’s rudder and aileron trim), radiators have to be adjusted in flight. And usually more than once. Then if you have a fuel leak on let’s say the left fuel tank, you have to adjust the fuel selector valve, otherwise you’re just wasting what fuel you have remaining in the other tank. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Novice-Flyer