Panther sight reticle zoom powers - implimented?

[[KG]Destaex]

I might be wrong but I thought the Panther at least had two levels of power zoom to the sight?

A friend commented that the panther sight triangles looked too small, it got me thinking that they may look bigger if the optics had a zoom function. A 2x lense or some such.

I know you can scroll in, but I attribute that to the crewman focussing on distant things harder. Squinting if you will, rather than the sight optics being changed.

[Yogiflight]

On 7/21/2020 at 12:59 AM, [KG]Destaex said:

I might be wrong but I thought the Panther at least had two levels of power zoom to the sight?

A friend commented that the panther sight triangles looked too small, it got me thinking that they may look bigger if the optics had a zoom function. A 2x lense or some such.

I know you can scroll in, but I attribute that to the crewman focussing on distant things harder. Squinting if you will, rather than the sight optics being changed.

I can't say for sure for the Panther, but the first version of the Tiger also had a 2.5x magnification gunsight, while later versions had a gunsight with interchangable magnification of 2.5/5x.

I would guess it might be the same for the Panther. No idea about the Ferdinand with its higher combat range.

 

[[SN]_Reaper_]

The sight with variable magnification 2.5x / 28° - 5.0x / 14° was installed on the Panther A / G. It was the sight Tzf.12a.

https://panzerworld.com/german-armor-optics#tank-gun-sights

Panther: Germany’s quest for combat dominance

 

A sight with constant magnification 2.5x Tzf.12 was installed on Panther D.

[[KG]Destaex]

Ahhhhh. So our one does not have it. I wonder if any if the other tanks we have do.

[Lofte]

On 7/21/2020 at 1:59 AM, [KG]Destaex said:

A friend commented that the panther sight triangles looked too small

You can evaluate it with this schema

 

and comapre with in game views

 

 

[[KG]Destaex]

Do we have any pictures down the original sight of the actual gun? 

There must be some sights in existence somewhere of what it looked like to the eye.

[ht-57]

check this out, scroll down a little on the site to  "Werner Hermann's" post, has lots of pics info including how to use triangles to range find.

https://www.quora.com/How-good-were-the-optics-on-the-Tiger-Panther-and-Tiger-II-tanks?share=1

[[KG]Destaex]

Yeah that's a great post. But the only sources pictures there are drawing which are probably not to scale and for explanatory purposes in manuals and modern computer depictions probably made for games. I was curious if anybody that made computer games had actually ever sighted the optics in real life to double check.

[[SN]_Reaper_]

Images of sights in various manuals for military equipment are drawn to scale. Lofte gave an example above. Therefore, you can focus on them.

The developers use any available sources, including photographs of the reticle of real sights. Whether they have the opportunity to look into a real sight for themselves, I don't know. This is difficult for a variety of reasons.

 

Google translate

[[KG]Destaex]

Shame as I know their are some surviving sights around. I have just never seen anybody show a shot down the barrel. I wonder if we could trouble the Chieftan or Forgotten Weapons to do it for us. I want to know what the gunner saw down the sight. A diagram to scale is well and good, but looking down the sight tube could put things in a different light and scale. Especially if their is any distance from the gunners eyeball down the tube to the sight. Some of those diagrams shown have much larger triangles than the ones in game. I thought it may be because they were drawn at 5x zoom rather than the usual zoom.

Edited July 26, 2020 by [KG]Destaex

[[SN]_Reaper_]

TZF 12a Panther A/G (not very good quality) 

 

TZF 9 Tiger

 

StuG/Jagdpanzer/Ferdinand

 

Link

 

[[KG]Destaex]

Yeah. From looking at those. The Panther scope notches are not able to be seen. But the Tiger ones definitely look larger than the ones on game.

[LachenKrieg]

@DeNoZavr those are interesting shots, where did you find them? The vehicle in the Tiger sight looks like a toy. Do you think its real?

[Goosevich]

Are you for real? XD

[LachenKrieg]

I wasn't trying to be insulting, or offend anyone. A better way to see how accurate the in game sights are and how close it resembles the real thing might be to check it against a known object and distance in game the way the sights were used for real. Place a tank on a map and view it from a set distance to see if the targeting triangles scale properly. I think what we see in game is pretty close to the real thing. 

I am also pretty sure that what is modeled in game when you use Ltshift + scroll is the 2.5x magnification that the real WWII German tanks used.

[[KG]Destaex]

The greyhound in the Tiger sight picture certainly does look like a toy to me. 
As for the scale of objects to the sight in game, yes an easy way to check the sight is working would be to check usage in game. I am pretty sure it is correct though from the few tests I have done. But this does not mean that other factors like how large the game draws objects at distance are not at play or the zoom to sight on the screen camera etc. Their are a whole lot of ways it could be done in game and "baked in", for me it's good enough and in all probably correct. Be nice to have some quality primary evidence though. Especially considering the triangle scale of some of the tiger sight drawings. In short I wonder if the devs actually got to see primary evidence for the sight when making the game. Perhaps they only got to see one sight? They would probably have photos to use for the game.

[LachenKrieg]

I think you are right about the Greyhound, and I think @DeNoZavr was just trying to be accommodating to the inquiry made. But to me what your friend was really asking is whether the gun sight is an accurate representation of the real world tank. In part, that question was already answered in the original post. The triangles along with any objects viewed in the gun sight are magnified 2.5x as you zoom in. We can see that in the images left by @Lofte. But the most important feature here is scale. The gun sight has to be scaled appropriately to the world being viewed through it. If that is done correctly, then what we see in-game should be pretty much what M. Wittmann saw as he zoomed in on a KV-1. In other words, if you know the scale of the gun sight, and you know the dimensions of the object being targeted, you can calculate you distance from the target.

 

Again, I think questions like this are both very relevant and important to the development of the sim.

 

Here are a couple low quality images made by someone depicting what you are looking for. You can see them a little better if you view the webpage yourself. I googled for images related to WWII Tiger tank gun sight.

 

 

 

 

[Voidhunger]

Some pictures of actual sights. Need to scroll down.

 

https://www.quora.com/Just-how-superior-were-German-Zeiss-optics-specifically-German-tank-gun-sights-in-WWII

[LachenKrieg]

On 8/3/2020 at 12:44 PM, Voidhunger said:

Some pictures of actual sights. Need to scroll down.

 

https://www.quora.com/Just-how-superior-were-German-Zeiss-optics-specifically-German-tank-gun-sights-in-WWII

@Voidhunger, I didn't see any actual images of tanks being targeted through a gun sight with the link you provided, but like the OP here, I am surprised that there isn't an abundant source of images given how much innovation was going into design improvements at that time. I guess this might lead to the question though as to what the OP's friend was basing his opinion on.

 

But on the other hand, if we know what the various tanks from WWII looked like, do we really need a picture of one being viewed through a gun sight to prove it?

 

That is why I maintain that the question raised is really an issue of scale. If we believe that the markings of the various gun sights have been accurately recreated, and I think that can be solidly confirmed, then all that is left to determine is whether the scale of the markings in each gun sight is accurate. That question can be answered by looking at a tank in game through the gunners position at a set distance.

[Voidhunger]

20 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

I didn't see any actual images of tanks being targeted through a gun sight with the link you provided, but like the OP here, I am surprised that there isn't an abundant source of images given how much innovation was going into design improvements at that time. I guess this might lead to the question though as to what the OP's friend was basing his opinion on.

ahh ok, I thought that you wanted to see look thought the actual sight, my wrong

[Voidhunger]

[LachenKrieg]

What book are  you taking these images from? I think the top two clearly showing the gun sight markings are what the OP was looking for. Thanks for sharing.

[Voidhunger]

58 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

What book are  you taking these images from? I think the top two clearly showing the gun sight markings are what the OP was looking for. Thanks for sharing.

google

[[SN]_Reaper_]

On 03.08.2020 at 00:48, LachenKrieg said:

@DeNoZavr those are interesting shots, where did you find them? The vehicle in the Tiger sight looks like a toy. Do you think its real?

In my post at the very bottom there is a link to a table that contains data on sights. Photo from there. There are clickable links there. Thanks to the one who collected all the information in one place . The armored car in the Tiger's sight is undoubtedly a toy.

 

On 03.08.2020 at 09:31, LachenKrieg said:

I wasn't trying to be insulting, or offend anyone. A better way to see how accurate the in game sights are and how close it resembles the real thing might be to check it against a known object and distance in game the way the sights were used for real. Place a tank on a map and view it from a set distance to see if the targeting triangles scale properly. I think what we see in game is pretty close to the real thing. 

I am also pretty sure that what is modeled in game when you use Ltshift + scroll is the 2.5x magnification that the real WWII German tanks used.

I have not tested german sights, but the soviet TMFD-7 sight matches the real one. The fact is that I am engaged in adjusting the scopes for the SPM mod in the Steel Fury game and I have collected extensive material on this issue.

You can see my topic on the ru-forum, use translator

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/13319-прицелы-приборы-наблюдения-бинокли/

 

On 03.08.2020 at 17:07, LachenKrieg said:

was just trying to be accommodating to the inquiry made. But to me what your friend was really asking is whether the gun sight is an accurate representation of the real world tank. In part, that question was already answered in the original post. The triangles along with any objects viewed in the gun sight are magnified 2.5x as you zoom in. We can see that in the images left by @Lofte. But the most important feature here is scale. The gun sight has to be scaled appropriately to the world being viewed through it. If that is done correctly, then what we see in-game should be pretty much what M. Wittmann saw as he zoomed in on a KV-1. In other words, if you know the scale of the gun sight, and you know the dimensions of the object being targeted, you can calculate you distance from the target.

 

Again, I think questions like this are both very relevant and important to the development of the sim.

 

Here are a couple low quality images made by someone depicting what you are looking for. You can see them a little better if you view the webpage yourself. I googled for images related to WWII Tiger tank gun sight.

There are better quality pictures

 

In real sights, when you change the magnification, the image of the reticle also increases. Look at the example of the BMP-3 sight

1x magnification

 

14x magnification

There is some confusion in the game due to the fact that there is a zoom. Should be done like with binoculars, no zoom.

 

I'm not sure if Google translate everything correctly 

 

[Voidhunger]

1 hour ago, DeNoZavr said:

Should be done like with binoculars, no zoom.

+1000

[LachenKrieg]

Agreed, that was one of the points I made above in relation to the OP's quote below. In game, we can see that both the object being viewed and the gun sight markings enlarge as magnification is increased. I think Lofte showed that very well in the images he posted.

 

"A friend commented that the panther sight triangles looked too small, it got me thinking that they may look bigger if the optics had a zoom function. A 2x lense or some such.

I know you can scroll in, but I attribute that to the crewman focussing on distant things harder. Squinting if you will, rather than the sight optics being changed."

 

It is good to hear that you have found the Soviet sight to be accurate, as it adds to my belief that the other sights in game are as well.

[Lofte]

16 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

google

Strange reticle. Never saw it before. Doubt it is Tiger's main gunsight...

[Voidhunger]

1 hour ago, Lofte said:

Strange reticle. Never saw it before. Doubt it is Tiger's main gunsight...

Me too, its weird and it doesnt looks like actual combat photo.

[LachenKrieg]

3 hours ago, Lofte said:

Strange reticle. Never saw it before. Doubt it is Tiger's main gunsight...

I would have considered it more if @Voidhunger had taken the images from a legitimately published book, but since the source is google it could be almost anything. It's not hard to make a photo B/W and then layer another image over it.

 

Like the toy photo above, we don't know the scale of the sight, object, or the distance to the lens that took the shot. It is impossible to make any qualitative assessment of whether the gun sight markings look bigger, or smaller.

Edited August 6, 2020 by LachenKrieg

[MicroShket]

On 8/6/2020 at 4:15 PM, LachenKrieg said:

It's not hard to make a photo B/W and then layer another image over it.

Just propaganda photos, I think. Edited for magazine, etc.