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I have been flying the P47 pretty much exclusively for about a week now and I have the  ground attack role down for the most part. But here's a situation I wind up in a lot and I have tried multiple things to try and solve it to no effect. 

Drop in on the target, release bombs and try to extend. Of course you now have a D9 or K4 on your ass and he's gaining. What do you do to resolve the situation? Here's what I have tried...

1. Start a horizontal scissors to force the overshoot. This has worked for the overshoot but now I am low and slow in a jug and therefore dead. 

2. Close up everything, hit the boost and try to outrun. Even with 150 octane that won't work.
3. Try to shallow climb away. Still no luck.

4. Try to use my speed after the dive to zoom back up to altitude. This alleviates the issue of being followed out on the deck while extending, but if a D9 follows you through the dive and zoom you're caught. 

So again, what's your advice on this?


 

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8 minutes ago, AirWolves=CutCut said:

I have been flying the P47 pretty much exclusively for about a week now and I have the  ground attack role down for the most part. But here's a situation I wind up in a lot and I have tried multiple things to try and solve it to no effect. 

Drop in on the target, release bombs and try to extend. Of course you now have a D9 or K4 on your ass and he's gaining. What do you do to resolve the situation? Here's what I have tried...

1. Start a horizontal scissors to force the overshoot. This has worked for the overshoot but now I am low and slow in a jug and therefore dead. 

2. Close up everything, hit the boost and try to outrun. Even with 150 octane that won't work.
3. Try to shallow climb away. Still no luck.

4. Try to use my speed after the dive to zoom back up to altitude. This alleviates the issue of being followed out on the deck while extending, but if a D9 follows you through the dive and zoom you're caught. 

So again, what's your advice on this?


 

Start complain on chat about how unrealistic it is with a K 4 conveniently being there.
P 47 worked back in the day when you flew with a well trained squad against a very scarce Luftwaffe. 
You fighting a lost cause, there is nothing you can do against a k4 in that situation

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The first thing to realize is that the roles are exactly reversed when using a Fw 190F-8 or G-8.

You can't do anything but disappear into the haze.

 

With enemy fighters CAPing over target areas, you'll usually have somebody scream down on you with an altitude-advantage and the ability to close the distance easily.

The only way to stay alive is to spill him out in front and hoping that there's not too many pals of his (or her), eager to join the party.

 

It's seldomly the single enemy that shoots you down - it's the four others in close pursuit.

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If you're down low with an enemy on your six, there's not really a direct trick that the Jug can pull to simply out perform your pursuer. You either out fight the player instead of the aircraft, which relies on him being less skilled than you, or bring some escort. You will not out turn, out climb, out run, etc any Axis A/C diving on you with an advantage. You can make yourself a hard target long enough for a friend to help. 

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2 minutes ago, QB.Shallot said:

 You can make yourself a hard target long enough for a friend to help. 


Yeah, this seems to be the only solution so far.

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I hate the jug. It's a fighter? Really?

 

It may be a fighter, but it wants to be a bomber, with 3 more engines and 8 or 9 more crew it would be. But it seems to be able to carry the bombs though!

 

Did these really escort the bombers all the way to Berlin? There couldn't have been much credible opposition.

 

But I say this. I fought a pair of them in an Me262, and whilst I got them both, it was the hardest fight I ever fought and my Schwalbe was more holes than aircraft, with starboard engine out, port outer flaps an U/C doors gone. I landed it but my nose wheel collapsed and I overshot the runway.

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Posted (edited)

Before the last patch P-47 could hang in the air using magic flaps but thats not the case anymore.

So, probably A-20 as ground attacker and SpitIX/P-51 as a fighter is your option.

Combat Box has public coms and I'd join up a group if flying P-47.

Good luck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po9Tyn2kbgM

 

Edited by [Pb]Slegawsky_VR

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2 hours ago, Reggie_Mental said:

 

Did these really escort the bombers all the way to Berlin? There couldn't have been much credible opposition.

 

 

At 24,000 feet, I'm sure it was different.  When there's enough altitude that risking temporary departure from control (ie; spins and tumbles) and recover, then pilots would have been more daring in gaining experience of how to push to the "envelope" of what it could do without losing control.  Also, some planes can actually be pushed into a "semi-departed" state where the spins and tumbles are intentional and easily recoverable with proper timing of corrective input. (Here's looking at you FW-190).  Maybe take a 47 up that high and throw it around to see what it can do, and then feel sad because almost nobody in multiplayer fights higher than 2km?

 

Also, P-47s were the American equivalent of the Jaguar big cat (if they hunted in packs instead of solo).   Jaguars get above the prey and wait for the right time to pounce on the neck. 

Being above the enemy and being able to dive-attack 1 target with 2 or more screamingly-fast, heavily-armed planes is the 47's bread and butter.  Disrupt any defensive response before they even have time to realize that they are being attacked.  Ambush 101.  

 

Then of course, after the bombers release the 47s from escort, said 47s would shallow dive to the deck and shoot at anything on the ground that looked enemy.  In a way, it was one of the first multi-role fighters.  

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I'd just like to follow up to clean the aircrafts reputation a bit. It's not bad, in fact, its downright deadly above 15k or so. While the FM changes got rid of a lot of BS that it could pull (see magic flaps). This kind of stuff saved my butt when dealing with K4's and D9's on the deck. Thats a no go anymore. But what you have instead is an aircraft thats heavily armed, has wonderful energy retention through a dive, is incredibly survivable, and has fantastic elevator authority. It's now deeper stall makes it far easier to pull lead shots against pursuers at high speed.

 

If you're looking to move mud with it and don't have enough man power for an escort, I'd suggest to come in with some altitude. Stick to the one pass haul ass rule, and drop from a near vertical dive with some altitude to spare. Bringing a friend with increase your chance of survival exponentially. Now while it's no magic plane, if you have enough speed, you can still perform a respectable energy trap on any pursuer. The speed to gained in the attack dive should give you the breathing space to set this up. The aircrafts properties make it very favorable for high speed wingman tactics, such as drag n bags. Think of it like you would an FW190. Give it a couple more chances, don't expect magic, but expect a rugged and reliable craft. 

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When using the P-47 as a fighter I tend to cover friendly objectives and give myself altitude, so if it goes wrong I can run back to the friendly lines.

 

It's a good hit and run fighter but it requires discipline, one pass and leave.

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I have pretty much given up on the thunderbolt for dog fighting. the way i think about it is it wasn't really made to be the best at dog fighting. it was made to be a high altitude bomber escort,

I see no use in using the thunderbolt over the mustang. it just does not really fit the game. maybe on the giant Normandy map where you can finally utilize high alt bomber escort. but if your concern is regarding the ground attack. just go with the P-38. i love the thunderbolt, its one my favorite aircraft. but i just rarely use it in competitive air to air combat. especially at low alts.

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2 minutes ago, LCFortisOne said:

I have pretty much given up on the thunderbolt for dog fighting. the way i think about it is it wasn't really made to be the best at dog fighting. it was made to be a high altitude bomber escort,

I see no use in using the thunderbolt over the mustang. it just does not really fit the game. maybe on the giant Normandy map where you can finally utilize high alt bomber escort. but if your concern is regarding the ground attack. just go with the P-38. i love the thunderbolt, its one my favorite aircraft. but i just rarely use it in competitive air to air combat. especially at low alts.

Don't agree, sorry. Especially with 150 octane, it's a very competitive fighter. It is manoeuvrable enough not to be hit on a merge and at high speed, with the g suit. You have enough e so you can time a hard pull which can out turn most German planes, putting you into an advantageous position.

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12 hours ago, QB.Shallot said:

...out fight the player instead of the aircraft...

Thanks QB.Shallot this really got me thinking!

I spent a lot of time on a Jug today and tried a few different tactics with varying levels of success. With that said I have for the most part abandoned the idea of dropping eggs and then hitting the deck to run out. Withe the number of K4's and D9's in the game, going to the deck is just futile. You're going to get caught and with no altitude in the bank account. Instead I have found the following to be more successful.

Drop your eggs and then use the energy from your dive to zoom back up. While zooming you have to be very aware of what is on your six, both someone climbing up or someone diving down. This is of course easier in the D28 with the bubble top visibility, than in the Razorback which has horrible reward visibility. I also make sure that I don't get so slow in the zoom that I have sluggish control responses. For me that is 200 KIAS. Once I start getting close to 200 it's time to level.

So why this tactic? Well because regaining that altitude gives you options. You're right, you're not not going to out speed the K4 and D9 so why bother. But you can out pilot the K4 or D9. With that altitude I have an energy bank account to draw from. I can perform a diving scissor on the enemy, I can chop throttle and force an overshoot and then can gain the speed back in a dive. The Jug accelerates much better with gravity assist. After all it's basically a Mack Truck with wings.

It doesn't mean I survived every time doing this, but I never survived on the deck with a gaining K4 or D9 giving chase. 

Thanks again QB.Shallot, your comment completely changed my mindset on this problem!!

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Posted (edited)

Firstly.

Now that the P-47D Has 150 octane its great. (And the people trashing it obviously havent flown it much since it got 150 octane)

And its capable of taking on any of the Axis prop fighters (Its not significantly better then them but it is certainly competitive)

 

The way i tend to deal with fighter-Bomber missions depend on if im Alone or if im Escorted.

If im flying alone and dont know if i will have cover over the target i plan for just a single high speed bomb run (in this case i usually take 3x 500 lb bombs)

 

Then i climb on the way to the target to atleast 10,000Ft and do a high speed dive attack on the target (Start it in a steep dive and then shallow it out gradually to avoid hitting the ground due to compressibility.

 

The bomb run tends to be the critical time and as soon as you drop the bombs you need to keep your head on a swivel, Since if anybody is going to jump you its probably now.

Use the energy built up in the high speed dive (should be 350-400mph at this point) to enter a climb to regain altitude (while constantly checking six).

 

At this point if you see no enemies and there are friendlies nearby you have can either circle above as cap or strafe some ground targets,

If there are no friendlies nearby its probably best to climb away from the area.

 

If you get jumped by a single enemy while in that climb what i find tends to work best is to force a overshoot by turning hard and then to try to reverse the turn and get a snapshot if they zoom climb, and then try to maintain the speed and wait untill he makes a mistake

(Since the P-47D with 150 octane has the performance to turn the table if the enemy makes a mistake),

 

If you get jumped by a group your probably screwed as your only options are either die in a futile attempt to fight back or you can run and hope for the best,

and the P-47D with 150 octane is pretty fast even down low (Especially the D-22) but unfortunately the D-9 and K-4 are faster

(Especially since you will have some added drag from the pylons).

 

So one on one if you survive the first merge i would say your odds are about even

(Against a 190 i would say better then Even against a 109 slightly worse)

but against a group you have a big problem.

Edited by mattebubben
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I would say that when the Thunderbolts arrived at the scene the german air force was almost gone, all the footage on the 'tube of ground strafing civilian horse carts and defenseless airfields has a lot to do with a few german unexperienced pilots left, no fuel, no spare parts and a generally absent Luftwaffe.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Catfish2 said:

I would say that when the Thunderbolts arrived at the scene the german air force was almost gone, all the footage on the 'tube of ground strafing civilian horse carts and defenseless airfields has a lot to do with a few german unexperienced pilots left, no fuel, no spare parts and a generally absent Luftwaffe.

 

That is completely untrue...

The P-47 pilots claimed 3,752 air-to-air kills and it bore the brunt of the 8th airforce fighting in 1943 and early 1944

If we take "the big week" in early 1944 for example they were by far the most numerous Fighter escort in those missions and scored the most kills.

(Day one the Fighter escort consisted of 94 P-38 Lightnings, 668 P-47 Thunderbolts and 73 P-51s)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Week

Go down and look at mission after mission and the different numbers of the different types and who many kills they claimed.

 

In addition we can just look at the 56th Fighter group.

It was the only 8th Airforce P-47 fighter group that kept using the P-47 untill the end of the war (did not switch to the P-51)

and they were also the 8th Airforce fighter group that scored the most victories.

 

If anything the P-47 is often stated to be the fighter that defeated the Luftwaffe in the West in 1943-early 1944.

(So if anything your claim is more true of the P-51 then the P-47 as the P-51 arrived when the Luftwaffe was already significantly on the decline

and the AVG Luftwaffe pilot in march 43 to march 44 was more experienced and better trained then the AVG luftwaffe pilot from May-44, May-45)

 

Sure in late 1944 after D-Day they were focused more on the Air to ground role as the 9th airforce became the primary operator of the P-47D in western europe

(And they were focused on tactical operations and supporting the ground war) but From mid 43 to mid 44 in Western europe the P-47 was primarily used in the Fighter role and was extremely important in that role... (And was instrumental in achieving air superiority in early 1944)

 

 

Edited by mattebubben
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Ok thanks, i was not aware that the P47 arrived so relatively early 👍

Just read that only 0,7 percent of the Thunderbolts were shot down, which makes their performance and ruggedness pretty impressive 🤔

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Wikipedia says from around 15000 built around 3500 were lost to combat causes, i.e. around 20%. Those 0.7% would amount to just about 100 planes lost. 

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6 minutes ago, 216th_Nocke said:

Wikipedia says from around 15000 built around 3500 were lost to combat causes, i.e. around 20%. Those 0.7% would amount to just about 100 planes lost. 

Maybe the 0.7% quote was losses to enemy aircraft and the 20% included those lost to flak etc?

0.7% sounds surprisingly low though.

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On 7/13/2020 at 5:07 AM, mattebubben said:

If anything the P-47 is often stated to be the fighter that defeated the Luftwaffe in the West in 1943-early 1944.

 

On 7/13/2020 at 6:14 AM, Catfish2 said:

Ok thanks, i was not aware that the P47 arrived so relatively early

Which brings the next aspect, you are fighting with an aircraft from 1943-44 against aircraft from 1945.

(True the p47 was upgraded just like the 109 and 190 1945 versions are upgrades, but due to the extent of the upgrade/performance the 109 k4 and 190 do are almost different planes)

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, [N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha said:

 

Which brings the next aspect, you are fighting with an aircraft from 1943-44 against aircraft from 1945.

(True the p47 was upgraded just like the 109 and 190 1945 versions are upgrades, but due to the extent of the upgrade/performance the 109 k4 and 190 do are almost different planes)

 

Well the differences between the P-47 in early-mid 1943 the P-47 in mid-late 1944 are also very significant.

Paddle prop and around 600-800hp of difference to be exact.

 

Though i agree that the P-47s we have might be more comparable to the 109G and Fw-190A series of aircraft in terms of performance and timeline then they are the D9 and K4.

 

But 150 octane in the P-47 makes it very much a 1944 airplane

(Both in terms of performance but also it was not untill the summer 1944 that the P-47 was cleard for use with 150 octane fuel)

Edited by mattebubben

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My preferred thing to do in any fighter with enemy  that is diving on me/ closing on me from behind, let him get close, throttle to 0, flaps down and forcing overshoot with rolling scissors while keeping my lift vector at 90 degree angle to his own. When he's about to jump in front of you, flaps up, full throttle and shoot him down once he's in front of you.  Risky tho, if he suspects a play like that he will drop speed too, if you catch him off guard and drop flaps and throttle at the right time you will bleed energy faster. 

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Ive flown the Jug from day one back in il2 days.  As far as being competitive it is at a disadvantage in multiplayer usually.  You are going to to get shot down more times than not.  Be patient flying it, take your best shot and zoom or run after.  When you do get a kill relish in it.  After being shot down...jump back in it and go again. 

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On 7/13/2020 at 5:07 AM, mattebubben said:

 

That is completely untrue...

The P-47 pilots claimed 3,752 air-to-air kills and it bore the brunt of the 8th airforce fighting in 1943 and early 1944

...

 

 

 

True, but seems to be a different discussion.  In 43/ early 44 the P47 was flying escort.  In that role it was flying at altitude (not doing low alt ground attacks as in Bodenplatte) and was crewed by competent pilots working as a team (not the AI).  By late 44/45 IMHO Catfish's comment applies.  It was doing ground attack and was rarely faced with competent opposition flying the best German planes.  Even when this did happen the 47 could use teamwork to come through (revisit AI comment).

 

So there is real life and there is the game.  If you want to survive in the game IMHO some of the advise given is useful.  One pass haul ass, especially if not escorted.  Get back to your own lines where AA might be your friend.  You the player should try to extend, gain altitude, and use B&Z tactics even if your AI mates will not.  Hopefully enemy AI becomes fixated on the guys circling with them.  And don't get overly attached to your AI squadron mates (learning this the hard way after moving from the 109 to the 190 in a German career).

 

 

 

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On 7/12/2020 at 7:02 PM, AirWolves=CutCut said:

So again, what's your advice on this?

 

In doing ground attacks without fighter screen the most important rule is: "Not to be seen!"

 

From frontline to target hug the ground at 100-150metres. Do one pass on the target with dropping all your ordnance at once. Only do a second pass if you are absolutely sure that there are no enemy fighters around. Then get the hell out of it as quickly as possible and also as low as possible until you cross the frontline again. Same works for 190s in the ground attack role.

 

If you meet enemy fighters that go after you, you will be most likely screwed in that fat flying pig!

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

True, but seems to be a different discussion.  In 43/ early 44 the P47 was flying escort.  In that role it was flying at altitude (not doing low alt ground attacks as in Bodenplatte) and was crewed by competent pilots working as a team (not the AI).  By late 44/45 IMHO Catfish's comment applies.  It was doing ground attack and was rarely faced with competent opposition flying the best German planes.  Even when this did happen the 47 could use teamwork to come through (revisit AI comment).

 

So there is real life and there is the game.  If you want to survive in the game IMHO some of the advise given is useful.  One pass haul ass, especially if not escorted.  Get back to your own lines where AA might be your friend.  You the player should try to extend, gain altitude, and use B&Z tactics even if your AI mates will not.  Hopefully enemy AI becomes fixated on the guys circling with them.  And don't get overly attached to your AI squadron mates (learning this the hard way after moving from the 109 to the 190 in a German career).

 

 

 

What are you on about?... Did you even read his comment?...

 

On 7/13/2020 at 10:32 AM, Catfish2 said:

I would say that when the Thunderbolts arrived at the scene the german air force was almost gone, all the footage on the 'tube of ground strafing civilian horse carts and defenseless airfields has a lot to do with a few german unexperienced pilots left, no fuel, no spare parts and a generally absent Luftwaffe.

 

He never said when they operated in the fighter bomber roll in 1944-45 the german air force was almost gone...

He said when they arrived at the scene. (i.e when they started seeing combat in Europe against the Luftwaffe)

 

I dont know about you but last time i checked that was in march-April of 1943 not in June 1944...

I was talking about history here... not ingame comparisons...

And he even admitted that he did not know about that part of the P-47s history...

So i dont really understand how you can be attacking me in defence of his initial comment?...

 

And im well aware on how to play the P-47 in this game as its my go-to allied Fighter... So no need in trying to lecture me on that topic as im quite comfortable in it already... And im perfectly happy to go up against any German prop fighter while flying the P-47D with 150 octane (Especially in the D-22).

 

 

Edited by mattebubben

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@mattebubben 

1. I'm on about the OP talking about how to survive in a P-47. 

2. I'm on about the differences between 1943/44 and 44/45. 

3. I'm on about the differences between the real thing and the game.  

 

I think that pretty much covers it.  

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

@mattebubben 

1. I'm on about the OP talking about how to survive in a P-47. 

2. I'm on about the differences between 1943/44 and 44/45. 

3. I'm on about the differences between the real thing and the game.  

 

I think that pretty much covers it.  

 

1.Then why did you aim it towards me instead of towards OP?...

2. I responded about a post that claimed the P-47 did not "arrive ta the scene" untill after the Luftwaffe was gone,

I corrected him... I never claimed there was no difference between P-47 operations in the period of March 1943-May 1944 and June 1944-May 1945...

3. I never claimed the ingame experience was the same as the game...

he made a incorrect historical claim and i corrected him...

 

I think that pretty much covers it...

 

Edited by mattebubben

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