.50 cal damage, or lack there of

[Tempus]

 

[Cpt_Siddy]

Netcode McLeran2aim 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

So...  (anecdotal observation - yeah, yeah, I know, Iknow....)    

 

In single player, the .50s on the P-40 seem to be more effective than those on the P-51.  I'm not sure how this could be as both planes are using the same guns in an almost-identical wing mounted configuration.  

 

The only thing that I would say is markedly  different is that the P-40 is a more stable platform than the P-51 as the P-40 has a fair bit less "buck and sway" in turbulence and control response. 

[BCI-Nazgul]

The only US "fighters" are the P-39 and the P-38.  The rest are US "botherers".  I'm not buying anymore 1C content until the stuff I already paid for is actually usable in multiplayer.  I regret buying Normandy in advance now.  I thought the .50s would have been resolved long ago not 6 months on and counting and we have nothing from 1C on this.

6 hours ago, =DMD=Honza said:

12,7 / 13mm HEs werent that effective, germans switched to API in later period of war. Actually it should be ingame too, germans shouldnt be able to use 13mm HE filler on late war planes and they should get pure AP-T right now until API is ingame. 
When i flew germans for a bit, its insanely OP, yes, i used word OP in sim. Its total easy mode where i got 6 kills in 45 mins of flying. Only 13mms alone are enough to take down fighters in small bursts... If 8x12,7 AP cant do this, 2x 13mm HE/AP belt certainly CANT do this and it had what, around 1,4 of TNT in each HE round? Thats absolutely nothing.

My friend flies German sometimes and he easily gets three kills per sortie at times because the guns actually work.  When we play US together we usually get one between us and a lot times we both get shot down with no kills.  All German flyers need to do is put one round of ANYTHING (but .30) into your plane and you're finished.   So, it's not an "aiming" problem unless someone thinks that my friend (at least) suddenly becomes a lousy shot when he gets into an American plane.  I'm not as good a pilot, but when I fly British, Russian, or a P-38 even my craptastic skills are enough to get some kills because the gun(s) work.

[VBF-12_Snake9]

Our squad is flying blue for the month on CB.  Really eye opening.  We have no fear of the 51.  We say "just drag and let him hit you.  Be down in a minute to clear you".  ?

 

Check this out.  ?

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by VBF-12_Snake9
oh you know lol

[CountZero]

Ah good old lizzard tail trick. You see its well knows that 190s didnt need vertical stab or rudder they were designed to fly without it with no problems, but it was there on airplane to destract enemys and detach so attacker thinks 190 is dead and going down in spin while in reality it just fake it and go for cover or get attacker later when hes proud of kill and relaxed.
"This broken-off section wriggles rapidly and often distracts the predator as the tailless Fw-190 scurries for cover."
This was discovered by some code braking wiz guys in Britain and then used in Tempest V design in last min, so he have same abilitys. (They didnt know about force shilds on 109 tail that was kept secret untill war end). 

 

 

[JG7_X-Man]

3 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

So...  (anecdotal observation - yeah, yeah, I know, Iknow....)    

 

In single player, the .50s on the P-40 seem to be more effective than those on the P-51.  I'm not sure how this could be as both planes are using the same guns in an almost-identical wing mounted configuration.  

 

The only thing that I would say is markedly  different is that the P-40 is a more stable platform than the P-51 as the P-40 has a fair bit less "buck and sway" in turbulence and control response. 

 

OK this I 100% agree with - I was trailing a a guy in WoL firing on a Me 110 and it took a few hits from that P-40 to bring it down. Remembering how long it took me to bring down the same aircraft in a P-51 on Box, that go me thinking! 

 

Is it just me or are those single 12.7×108 mm do more damage than than the twin .50 cal on the B-25?

 

If this is what you guys have been saying - I think the issue is the P-40 needs to be tweaked 

Edited September 11, 2020 by JG7_X-Man

[6./ZG26_Custard]

51 minutes ago, CountZero said:

You see its well knows that 190s didnt need vertical stab or rudder they were designed to fly without it with no problems

It's a good job Jerry didn't have B-52's in WWII because the war really would have been over by Christmas.

 

 

[CountZero]

10 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

It's a good job Jerry didn't have B-52's in WWII because the war really would have been over by Christmas.

 

 

And somehow only 190 and Tempest can do this in this game (without engines in wings to help), im sure when we get B-52 it will not be able to do it ?

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by CountZero

[Cpt_Siddy]

11 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

It's a good job Jerry didn't have B-52's in WWII because the war really would have been over by Christmas.

 

 

You can steer a multi engine, torque free aircraft by using engine power asymmetrically. 

 

Trying to have a singe engine prop drive plane fly without tail is another matter completely.

 

 

[Reggie_Mental]

I landed a Bf109E7 with the top part of its rudder missing and didn't know it  was missing until I hit F2 after landing!! I thought my rudder authority was a bit weak, but it was zero wind landing.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

You can steer a multi engine, torque free aircraft by using engine power asymmetrically. 

 

Trying to have a singe engine prop drive plane fly without tail is another matter completely

 

[CountZero]

5 hours ago, Reggie_Mental said:

I landed a Bf109E7 with the top part of its rudder missing and didn't know it  was missing until I hit F2 after landing!! I thought my rudder authority was a bit weak, but it was zero wind landing.

Emils didnt get temporary fix for tail, im all in for same temporary fix other 109s got for Tempest tail it would be nice to get aditrional armor protection for pilot from dead 6 attacks ?

 

[[-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR]

Did they fix the .50cals?

[SCG_motoadve]

12 minutes ago, Slegawsky_VR said:

Did they fix the .50cals?

They dont need to be fixed .

 

[[FAC]Ghost129er]

1 hour ago, SCG_motoadve said:

They dont need to be fixed .

 

Same goes for the 109 tail too I guess. :^)

[Ace_Pilto]

For me, in single player, they set fire to, or pilot kill almost everything they hit. It's almost comical. No idea how it works online though. 

[Ace_Pilto]

Aim small miss small is how i was taught to shoot. Not sure how that works with packet loss, ping and such.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Ace_Pilto

[CountZero]

2 hours ago, Ace_Pilto said:

For me, in single player, they set fire to, or pilot kill almost everything they hit. It's almost comical. No idea how it works online though. 

And how many thouse AIs you shoot down when they dont just turn like noobs, all ai i see is in constant turns, how mayn 109 ai you bounced from dead 6 and get them in one pqass or pk pilot ?

 

nothing wrong with 0.50s, like nothing is wrong with 13mm on all german fighters having no AP or mc 202 12.7 having no HE and so on... 

[SAS_Storebror]

 

Mike

[von_Tom]

On 9/11/2020 at 10:47 PM, VBF-12_Snake9 said:

 

Check this out.  ?

 

 

What is the point of the video?,  Pretty much every plane can fly straight or in very gentle manoeuvres without a vertical stabiliser including the P51.

 

Personally speaking I have no idea if the .50s are underpowered or simply working as they should.  Likewise with the AP opposed with the API.  Same with the 109 stabiliser as it has always seemed weak whenever I get hit.

 

I do however know that getting a hit at convergence range with .50 cals is a lot harder for me than with the more centre-lined guns of a 109 o 190.  Same with La5 though they are fuselage mounted weapons.

 

von Tom

[[DBS]TH0R]

Just tested .50s in P-51 vs. 109K4. And boy do they feel impotent. Complete opposite from what they were when the P-51D was first introduced in this sim.

 

I spend better part of my ammo on 3 x 109s from various ranges and mostly 6 OC. Results:

• no fires
• no de-winging
• no control surfaces lost

 

Simply lots of smoke and nothing else. All 3 AI (ace skill level) 109s went down due to pilot kill.

 

Not sure what it is, and this is by no means a scientific test - but something definitely feels off.

Edited September 17, 2020 by [DBS]TH0R

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, von_Tom said:

 

What is the point of the video?,  Pretty much every plane can fly straight or in very gentle manoeuvres without a vertical stabiliser including the P51.

 

Personally speaking I have no idea if the .50s are underpowered or simply working as they should.  Likewise with the AP opposed with the API.  Same with the 109 stabiliser as it has always seemed weak whenever I get hit.

 

I do however know that getting a hit at convergence range with .50 cals is a lot harder for me than with the more centre-lined guns of a 109 o 190.  Same with La5 though they are fuselage mounted weapons.

 

von Tom

P-38 has 4x0.50 in nouse or maybe better P-39 with 2x0.50 to be more like on soviet airplanes with nouse 12.7mm or german 13mm, others compared and its not even close on what you get with american 12.7mm and others nations similar guns, but before AP rounds got adjusted in 4.005 (made AP rounds weeker and HE stronger) there was no problems with american guns exept few axis players complaining how p51 can get 10+kills and thats not fair, as only german expertens should be able to do that.

Edited September 17, 2020 by CountZero

[-332FG-Buddy]

What makes this worse IMHO, is that I don't even believe the devs are saying anything.  I use to play this game daily, now I havnt played it in about 2-3 weeks.  It's pretty ridiculous but oh well....

[VBF-12_Snake9]

8 hours ago, von_Tom said:

 

What is the point of the video?,  Pretty much every plane can fly straight or in very gentle manoeuvres without a vertical stabiliser including the P51.

 

Personally speaking I have no idea if the .50s are underpowered or simply working as they should.  Likewise with the AP opposed with the API.  Same with the 109 stabiliser as it has always seemed weak whenever I get hit.

 

I do however know that getting a hit at convergence range with .50 cals is a lot harder for me than with the more centre-lined guns of a 109 o 190.  Same with La5 though they are fuselage mounted weapons.

 

von Tom

A dev did respond to me and said that the FM of the d9 would be looked into.  He couldn't give me a time frame though.  And no every plane can not fly with the vert stab.  Did you even watch Count Zeros videos.  RIGHT BELOW MINE.  ?

[SAS_Storebror]

2 hours ago, -332FG-Buddy said:

What makes this worse IMHO, is that I don't even believe the devs are saying anything.  I use to play this game daily, now I havnt played it in about 2-3 weeks.  It's pretty ridiculous but oh well....

This.

God bless Microsoft for releasing Flight Simulator 2020.

 

Mike

[von_Tom]

 

The angst in this thread is mind-boggling.  It's like virtue signalling "I won't play because of x...."  Get over it because the only one losing out is you, whoever you are.

 

Do your research, present your findings in a bug report, and sit back and wait for the devs to look at it. 

 

von Tom

[SAS_Storebror]

Isn't that exactly what we did?

Research - Done, extensively.

Findings - Presented, extensively.

Bugs - Reported, extensively.

Sitting back and waiting for the devs to look at it: That's where we're stuck at for 6 months, 4 minor and 1 major game update and countless hotfixes since.

If people lose patience then this might be related to this issue causing a massive imbalance to the game, and devs not even being bothered to say a word about it in all that time.

 

Again: God bless Microsoft for releasing Flight Simulator 2020.

Such a relief to see that others read the communities' opinions (even across 3rd party forums), take them seriously and respond in a timely manner, with explanations, schedules etc.

Yes I know, we cannot compare 777 Studios with Microsoft, but it'd be a wise decision to learn from them.

 

Mike

[6./ZG26_Custard]

I think that a crumb of comfort (albeit a cold one for some) is that two issues that have bugged the community have been or will be addressed, Spotting and G-modelling.

It would be very disingenuous to say that we have silent developers who don't listen and never reply, particularly when we have a whole host of updates and improvements and 260  Developer Diaries.

 

Being a customer, I also feel frustrated at times when a particular aspect of the project seems wrong and you feel as though your issues are being ignored. Having said that, I try to look objectively at what is going on. I am not a software engineer or a project manager so I don't know what sort of challenges and difficulties are faced when adding changes to say, something like damage modelling and what fundamental effects that will have on the project overall. I would assume you change one thing you can effect many other variables along the way. 

 

I think posting endless comments of things like " we need learn to aim"  and constant berating can be as counter productive as silence from the developers. Because after awhile some will see this as just toxic individuals s**t posting, even if their issue is a valid one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HR_Tumu]

Every dev diary posting without references to this issue... is more  firewood.

 

And comments of some participants are simply from another world. I dont care it im more interested on comments for developers....

 

Maybe last offerts introduce new players to game and this is great... but in  the other hand... many are losing interest in it.

 

[LuftManu]

If the dev team is not answering that does not mean is it ignoring this issue.

 

Kind regards

[SAS_Storebror]

4 minutes ago, LF_Gallahad said:

If the dev team is not answering that does not mean is it ignoring this issue.

 

It doesn't mean that they take it serious either.

Silence has never been a good way of customer relationship management.

 

It's not that much what the message you're intending to send with your activities (or inactivities) is, the relevant part is how your customers receive it.

If, for whatever reasons, customers come to think that you don't care for the issues they have with your product, then this is the worst thing that could happen to you (and your product) and it needs immediate attention and countermeasures.

Neither of which can be seen here (except for when you count comments like "learn to aim" as immediate countermeasures, or removal of posts mentioning the issue, both here and on the Facebook channel).

Not for a couple of days, for half a frikkin' year.

And we're not talking about tree leaves shaking wrong, we're talking about a major imbalance purposedly introduced to the game.

It's as if in a chess game you'd take away all but one pawn for black, give white a 2nd queen and say "deal with it, we'll look at it later, after the holidays (and we don't say which holidays we were talking about)."

 

Mike

[HR_Tumu]

 

14 minutes ago, LF_Gallahad said:

If the dev team is not answering that does not mean is it ignoring this issue.

 

Just now, SAS_Storebror said:

Silence has never been a good way of customer relationship management

[LuftManu]

@SAS_Storebror @HRc_Tumu I understand the frustration, but sadly there is never an easy fix if it needs fixing, nor always time to write. There is always a development plan, and taking a look at the last update, it has taken a lot of time.

 

Why didn't they do this "fix" before? Might be for several reasons. One of them is probably because there is more depth in the way, as the fuel tanks and "intention" to add APIT/API. Let's see what does the team has under the sleeve. I am not in the dev team, but I am sure than they want the game to be better, even more than both of you.

 

And yes, I am sure they read and care.

 

 

 

I prefer not to comment further here, please take into account that making this "issue" more loud won't make the fix come faster. I am sure if it is planned, it has already been read.

 

Kind regards!

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by LF_Gallahad

[Eisenfaustus]

31 minutes ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Silence has never been a good way of customer relationship management.

Silence? They have already said, that they are currently working on a better fuel system and want to introduce incendiary ammo with it. 
And they are still working on a fix for the 109 tail section. Btw they said that the tail section cannot fall off the airframe at the moment - not that ap couldn‘t penetrate into the fuselage through the tail and damage internals. 

[SAS_Storebror]

What exactly did you want to tell us again, @EisenFaust?

The fact that they're working on other things or the fact that they've neither acknowledge the "bullet sponge" 109's tail or the fact that they've got no idea how to solve the "undetachable" tail issue on the 109s, let alone when?

 

See: If any of the devs was afraid that the ongoing complaints would ruin the reputation of the game, then for freck's sake the easiest way to stop it was to acknowledge the issues and roll out a plan for immediate countermeasures.

Half a year of silence is sailing on the edge of ignorance, sorry to say.

 

Mike

[Hawk-2a]

It‘s hard not to ignore the amount of bullshit in all those 200 different .50 cal threads. Even if some of the statements or feedbacks might have some valid points in them, they get lost in the pure amount of random crap that is being posted. Be it by „i feel that“ or „in my opinion“ and „but the pilot xyz said in his book“ is not really a source to rely on.

 

couple that with some game limitations about how many systems and to what extend they are modeled in this sim, it is easy to feel that some ammunition that doesnt have HE filler might feel weak or that ammo with HE filler feels extremely strong.

that combined with how detailed (or not) the damage model really is and some peoples personal bias, it surely must be a challenge for any dev to even read out the valid points.

 

just because they dont comment on your posts doesnt mean they did not see it. In fact it is hard to miss the .50 threads, there‘s probably one in every sub forum in some way or another.

[sniperton]

As I see the main problem here is that the apparent ineffectivity of some .50 cals is interconnected with both netcode issues and the broken/imperfect DM of various aircraft models.

 

Perhaps the "base" performance of each gun should be tested by strafing ground targets such as howitzers online.

 

So what about setting up a very simple online test mission?

-- several ground units of the same type placed side-by-side in groups;

-- respawn each unit when destroyed;

-- restrict player to configs with the same gun type (Breda-only Macchi, Shkas-only Rata, UB-only MiG, Browning-only US planes);

-- give him unlimited ammo.

 

After one hour of testing, you can parse the stats for mass data such as

gun type / config / hits / kills

gun type / config / hits / damage

gun type / config / hit ratio (if the 8-guns config results in a considerably lower hit ratio than the 4-guns config, it can be indicative of some hits not being registered online).

 

I can't do it myself, but I'd gladly contribute with test flying if anyone takes the pain to create one.

[CountZero]

People already did test on airplanes, offline so you cant blaim it on netcode, with P-39s nouse guns so you cant blaim it on aim with wing guns, and other nation guns are mutch more effective, reason HE ammo. Mc202 is also week as its buged, it has only AP belt. Russian 12.7 is strong as it has HE and AP working bug free, german 13mm is strongest as its buged and have only HE ammo insted HEAPHE mix and so on... shoting at 109 from 6 is taking longer to do damage then on other fighters when shoot at 6 with any gun... but 12.7 AP ammo is more worthless how it works when in combo with 109 tail...

 

For me onother test was shoot at AI airplanes with vanila game in p-51 and look how many i got, then just make simple mod where i replace original bullet_usa_12-7x99_ap.txt and . bin files from games ...data\luascripts\worldobjects\ballistics\projectiles folder withrenamed russian bullet_rus_12-7x108_he.txt .bin HE ammo, so now my p-51 has HE ammo. And cheeck just how mutch more effective i am then.

So if HE ammo is so mutch more effective in game then AP, if thats represantation of real world why would then americans be only ones having only AP ammo, where other nations in game have mix of AP and HE (or should have if there is no bugs like on 13mm or mc202). 

 

Again if they dont model all differant ammo types in your game and just give AP or HE, easy fix is add APHEAP mix to 0.50 cal guns, where HE represents missing types of ammo, and we have quick fix on same level they did to make 109 tails undestructable by doing quick fix on them only. Heck they can do a poll on testers like they did for 109 tail and ask: do you wont to wait for next who know when for all ammo belts in airplanes be historical, or just have as its now AP and HE only but add HE to represent missing stuff.

 

For people who see how things shifted after 4.005 you have options to fly P-38 as it atleast have 20mm gun that do expected damage, or just transfer to RAF that have 20mm guns, or fly Axis like most do.

Edited September 18, 2020 by CountZero

[[DBS]TH0R]

3 hours ago, H_Stiglitz said:

It‘s hard not to ignore the amount of bullshit in all those 200 different .50 cal threads. Even if some of the statements or feedbacks might have some valid points in them, they get lost in the pure amount of random crap that is being posted. Be it by „i feel that“ or „in my opinion“ and „but the pilot xyz said in his book“ is not really a source to rely on.

 

couple that with some game limitations about how many systems and to what extend they are modeled in this sim, it is easy to feel that some ammunition that doesnt have HE filler might feel weak or that ammo with HE filler feels extremely strong.

that combined with how detailed (or not) the damage model really is and some peoples personal bias, it surely must be a challenge for any dev to even read out the valid points.

 

just because they dont comment on your posts doesnt mean they did not see it. In fact it is hard to miss the .50 threads, there‘s probably one in every sub forum in some way or another.

 

Biased much?

 

Facts:

• .50 cals are missing API rounds
• 109 tail section DM is indestructible (WIP)
• same lack of effectiveness reproduced offline where net code is not an issue

 

Therefore it is reasonable to expect changes that will and should, make .50 cals more lethal and effective in the near future.

Edited September 18, 2020 by [DBS]TH0R