Stukas Still Frustrating Me

[MattS]

Gents; 

 

I've been working on my slashing attacks and deflection shooting against my old nemesis, the Stuka.

 

I've gotten used to their ability to always see me coming, turn at the optimal moment, and use their knowledge of my exact position and speed (and where my guns are pointed) to juke out of the way at the last second...in fact sometimes I set them up by aiming low and waiting for the AI to pull up and then shoot. Once they leave their formation, slashing attacks and short firing window snapshots really are all you're going to get on them until they are severely compromised, which is fine. Good practice.

 

What frustrates me is that when I do make a good attack and get hits in the general area of the cockpit and wing roots, most of the time nothing major happens (with either .50 cal or ShVAK). The Stuka maybe starts leaking more but the pilot and gunner shrug it off. The engine is very difficult to stop or set on fire.

 

Contrast that with the Heinkel 111s which are easy kills...a solid burst into the engine/wingroot area and it catches fire. Pilot seems easier to kill as well.

 

Anybody out there able to take maneuvering Stukas out in one or two good passes with Yaks or the American fighters? I feel like with enough practice I should eventually be able to do that, but maybe not.

[Elem]

You probably don't remember them from the very first release of BoX? They were lethal super aggressive fighters and I could not out manoeuvre them in even the I-16. That was soon toned down and at least today they behave as expected of a slow dive-bomber. I don't have any problems taking them out with 1-3 shots from the Yak-9T, but I will often take some damage in return.

[TCW_Brzi_Joe]

With Yaks? Unless it is Yak 9-T, I need a lot of ammo to bring any bomber down. Especially when playing safe with snap shoots / slashing. 

Late war years are opposite, every fighter has strong punch then, that bombers are often 1 time pass. It happens a lot when I fly bomber

 

My approach; go parallel to bomber untill near, then turn into him, the best is to let him go trough your aim from left-right, or opposite. Short burst. Then repeat.

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

My biggest beef with the Stuka is that no matter what you have them set at in the FMB (low, normal, veteran, ace), the tail gunners are still uber snipers that fire at very long range and at angles that a human in the tail gunner seat could never pull off.  I've stopped putting them in missions as AI.  Not worth the trouble.

[MattS]

8 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

My biggest beef with the Stuka is that no matter what you have them set at in the FMB (low, normal, veteran, ace), the tail gunners are still uber snipers that fire at very long range and at angles that a human in the tail gunner seat could never pull off.  I've stopped putting them in missions as AI.  Not worth the trouble.

 

My favorite is how they squeeze their bullet stream between the bracket and the horizontal stabilizer, LOL.

 

Glad to hear that other guys are having trouble bringing them down quickly with the more modestly armed planes. I was thinking it must be me.

 

The Tempest and Yak-9T shred them pretty well at least. Had one flight yesterday where I took a chunk of a wing off with the -9T cannon, then chased the guy and the rest of his wing snapped off when he pulled into a hard turn. That was satisfying

[ShamrockOneFive]

The best approach I've had with the Stukas is higher high six diving pass (the gunner doesn't seem to be able to point fully up) at a high deflection angle or a low 6 belly attack outside of the arc of the gunner. That last one can be tricky with wingmen as they sometimes will still have a shot. On those low belly attacks I am for the radiator. That seems to do the most damage.

 

When attacking a formation of Stuka's I tend to go less for killing shots on each aircraft and more on a crippling shot to prevent them from reaching target. They will drop their bombs before hitting target and I consider that a mission success.

[MattS]

2 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

The best approach I've had with the Stukas is higher high six diving pass (the gunner doesn't seem to be able to point fully up) at a high deflection angle or a low 6 belly attack outside of the arc of the gunner. That last one can be tricky with wingmen as they sometimes will still have a shot. On those low belly attacks I am for the radiator. That seems to do the most damage.

 

When attacking a formation of Stuka's I tend to go less for killing shots on each aircraft and more on a crippling shot to prevent them from reaching target. They will drop their bombs before hitting target and I consider that a mission success.

 

Thanks, I have to agree with you on all of that. When they are in formation is when the Stukas are actually the most vulnerable. Especially when you catch the formation doing a lazy turn it is possible to get into an offset low 4 or 8 position and put some good strings of fire into them, or dive in like you said.

 

Once they have been damaged and break away from the pack is when they infuriate me sometimes. I make one diving attack after another and the Stuka knows how and when to turn to put himself across your flight path every damned time (even if his canopy is covered in oil or the gunner is dead). Which I can live with but it gets old to hose down the top of the fuselage from the spinner to the tail, or a solid burst into a wing, and the dude just flies on like you're the idiot, LOL.

 

Showing the top of the canopy to an enemy's guns at point blank range like that ought to be suicide but most of the time it is not.

[Avimimus]

I tend to approach from slightly below (where I have some protection), then pop-up to one side of them (a bit of side slip first)... and rack them horizontally... they tend to explode... even when using an aircraft with a fairly weak armament... might have to do with the fuel tank position. So, I actually find them the easiest aircraft to kill.

 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

The solution is to hop into the P40 and watch as Stukas melt in front of you.

[MattS]

3 hours ago, US63_SpadLivesMatter said:

The solution is to hop into the P40 and watch as Stukas melt in front of you.

 

Sure, if I can line up a long tracking shot it is pretty devastating. What I'm salty about are the times when he flies through the "hose" coming down on the top of his plane and it doesn't kill him or the engine or start a fire. Or change how he flies much.

3 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I tend to approach from slightly below (where I have some protection), then pop-up to one side of them (a bit of side slip first)... and rack them horizontally... they tend to explode... even when using an aircraft with a fairly weak armament... might have to do with the fuel tank position. So, I actually find them the easiest aircraft to kill.

 

 

Interesting...I have put many good shots into their sides and the gunner just pops me as I dive away LOL.

 

It could also be that my shooting is even more horrible than I think it is. 

 

Edit:

 

Just did a QMB with the P-51 and murdered 3 pilots in as many passes and crashed the fourth pretty shortly after that. LOL. I think I just get better quality shots with it because I come in fast with good control and the AI can't scamper fast enough. The visibility over the nose is superb as well.

Edited June 13, 2020 by MattS
added note about P-51.

[Avimimus]

5 hours ago, MattS said:

It could also be that my shooting is even more horrible than I think it is. 

 

Mine isn't great - I don't think anyway...

 

There are a bunch of different ways of lining up a burst... and people have different instincts... it took me a while to find my style and, while I can down Ju-87 easily, fly a Mig-3, anduse the 37mm on the P-39... I'm probably much worse at deflection shots, using aircraft that rely on wing guns, hitting certain types of aircraft... for years I tended to ram enemies as a result of target fixation.

 

I think I developed this flat side-slipping based 'raking fire' technique because the AI gunners have more trouble with it in Great Battles... In Il-2 1946 I would hit bombers by doing a series of S-turns through the formation and firing at them from much higher angles - but Il-2 1946 has a better padlock system that makes such attacks possible (and G-forces have less of an effect).

 

My advice: Don't be hard on yourself and try different approaches, different kinds of bursts... try using the tracers instead of the gunsight to aim... or just using the gunsight and ignoring the tracers - try everything... eventually you'll find something that suits your personality and style.

[Stoopy]

@MattS, when you first posted about this I, like a few others I'd bet, thought, "Surely he can't be serious. How hard can it be?".   So I made a little custom mission, which I prefer over the QMB,  and figured I'd record a track and show you how it's done.

 

Boy was I humbled.

 

So maybe we can have some fun and learning out of this.   Here's the mission I made, which eliminates all possible variations out of how each person's QMB session is set up.  There's a flight of 4 Stukas on the Lapino map, they are Normal AI and even have full fuel.   They even start out at a disadvantage, as they'll be at your low 10 o'clock flying the same heading as you.  Your P-47D-28 will have 50% fuel, an altitude advantage, and normal clean weapon loadout.  

 

So for anyone who wants to take the Stuka Dogfght Challenge and record a track showing how many they are able to get, here's the mission:

 

Stuka Dogfight Challenge.zip

Edited June 13, 2020 by =[TIA]=Stoopy

[MattS]

27 minutes ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

@MattS, when you first posted about this I, like a few others I'd bet, thought, "Surely he can't be serious. How hard can it be?".   So I made a little custom mission, which I prefer over the QMB,  and figured I'd record a track and show you how it's done.

 

Boy was I humbled.

 

So maybe we can have some fun and learning out of this.   Here's the mission I made, which eliminates all possible variations out of how each person's QMB session is set up.  There's a flight of 4 Stukas on the Lapino map, they are Normal AI and even have full fuel.   They even start out at a disadvantage, as they'll be at your low 10 o'clock flying the same heading as you.  Your P-47D-28 will have 50% fuel, an altitude advantage, and normal clean weapon loadout.  

 

So for anyone who wants to take the Stuka Dogfght Challenge and record a track showing how many they are able to get, here's the mission:

 

Stuka Dogfight Challenge.zip 5.87 kB · 0 downloads

 

I'll give it a try, thanks!

[BlitzPig_EL]

You could have set the Stukas to "low" and the outcomes would no doubt be the same.

 

It would be interesting to set it up as a cooperative mission and have humans in the gunner's position.  That would be the real eye opener.

[MattS]

33 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

You could have set the Stukas to "low" and the outcomes would no doubt be the same.

 

It would be interesting to set it up as a cooperative mission and have humans in the gunner's position.  That would be the real eye opener.

 

LOL this mission encapsulates literally everything I hate about computer AI in basically every game I've ever played.

 

Constant unerring awareness of your position, speed, and gun window. Unfailing accuracy when it decides that it wants to be accurate, completely unaffected by things like incoming fire that might reduce the performance of a human pilot or gunner. Constant chasing like a zombie...never hesitates out of uncertainty, never misreads your intentions and makes the wrong tactical choice, just does whatever it is programmed to do based on the data that it has (which is all of it). Mindlessly crashing into the player head-on. The net effect is that you never really "outplay" them and have them at your mercy, you either outfly their script or you don't...and even when you do they pull some last-moment shit to take the sting out of your kill shot. Not really satisfying at all.

 

 

Edit:

 

Did another QMB mission in the P-40 where the Stukas aren't even trying to kill the player...same BS. Constantly pulling max-performance turns across my nose as I dive on them, I soak their upper surface with .50cal fire, nothing really happens, repeat. I finally run out of ammo and Ctrl+F2 to take a look at the enemy and it is riddled with holes, windscreen black with oil, streaming fluids but both crewmembers are fine and the pilot is still flying like he's on leave from the Blue Angels. Complete nonsense.

 

Best part is when I went to go look I noticed that the textures on the Stuka were blurry and the game locked up again when I tried to exit. Won't save crash dumps either for some reason.

Edited June 13, 2020 by MattS

[BB-Madman]

I think the devs need to look at the Stuka flight model. They turn better than Zeroes and climb faster than G-14's.  

[Stoopy]

2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

You could have set the Stukas to "low" and the outcomes would no doubt be the same.

 

It would be interesting to set it up as a cooperative mission and have humans in the gunner's position.  That would be the real eye opener.

 

Coop eh?  Sure thing, here you go - it is indeed, interesting!  Maybe MattS can get his revenge as a tailgunner...  (put the Stuka on full autopilot before jumping in the back)

 

 

Stuka Challenge Coop.zip

2 hours ago, MattS said:

Best part is when I went to go look I noticed that the textures on the Stuka were blurry and the game locked up again when I tried to exit. Won't save crash dumps either for some reason.

 

Very odd, I got that exact same thing, blurry textures on the Stuka and freeze when exiting.  Like there's a memory leak when using the Stuka, or something.

Edited June 13, 2020 by =[TIA]=Stoopy

[MattS]

50 minutes ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

 

Coop eh?  Sure thing, here you go - it is indeed, interesting!  Maybe MattS can get his revenge as a tailgunner...  (put the Stuka on full autopilot before jumping in the back)

 

Gonna be like John Rambo back there LOL.

 

50 minutes ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

 

Very odd, I got that exact same thing, blurry textures on the Stuka and freeze when exiting.  Like there's a memory leak when using the Stuka, or something.

 

Must be! Only just started for me since the update.

[Avimimus]

3 hours ago, MattS said:

 

LOL this mission encapsulates literally everything I hate about computer AI in basically every game I've ever played.

 

Constant unerring awareness of your position, speed, and gun window. Unfailing accuracy when it decides that it wants to be accurate, completely unaffected by things like incoming fire that might reduce the performance of a human pilot or gunner. Constant chasing like a zombie...never hesitates out of uncertainty, never misreads your intentions and makes the wrong tactical choice, just does whatever it is programmed to do based on the data that it has (which is all of it). Mindlessly crashing into the player head-on. The net effect is that you never really "outplay" them and have them at your mercy, you either outfly their script or you don't...and even when you do they pull some last-moment shit to take the sting out of your kill shot. Not really satisfying at all.

 

Yes indeed... it is easy for AI to be too accurate or to miss continuously...

 

Also your points about the fact that AI never disengages prematurely... and AI never loses track of its opponent... those are areas which could really enhance realism...

[RhumbaAzul]

2 hours ago, BB-Madman said:

They turn better than Zeroes and climb faster than G-14's.  

Except when you're actually piloting them?

[Guest deleted@210880]

4 hours ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

@MattS, when you first posted about this I, like a few others I'd bet, thought, "Surely he can't be serious. How hard can it be?".   So I made a little custom mission, which I prefer over the QMB,  and figured I'd record a track and show you how it's done.

 

Boy was I humbled.

 

So maybe we can have some fun and learning out of this.   Here's the mission I made, which eliminates all possible variations out of how each person's QMB session is set up.  There's a flight of 4 Stukas on the Lapino map, they are Normal AI and even have full fuel.   They even start out at a disadvantage, as they'll be at your low 10 o'clock flying the same heading as you.  Your P-47D-28 will have 50% fuel, an altitude advantage, and normal clean weapon loadout.  

 

So for anyone who wants to take the Stuka Dogfght Challenge and record a track showing how many they are able to get, here's the mission:

 

Stuka Dogfight Challenge.zip 5.87 kB · 2 downloads

 

Oh man, I hate the P47 as a fighter.

 

1st Attempt: Maybe one stuka critically damaged, the rest got a maneuver kill on me.

[MattS]

Take heart gents, as a test I'm flying against other planes (to narrow down the Stuka as the cause of my recent crashes) and re-discovered the joys of the Ju-88 ventral gunner. Crouching down in a position that is so uncomfortable that it has been banned by the Geneva Conventions, he uses the Force to sense where you are at all times so that when you fly into his gun's arc he is already firing to where you are going to be in half a second. Bonus points for when he does it after the pilot rocks his wings bringing you into the arc, and no-scopes your engine from hundreds of meters away. ?

 

That's when you just have to trade in your MiG-3 or Yak-1 for a Tempest and shred the living hell out of them. 

 

 

[Ram399]

On 6/12/2020 at 8:40 AM, ShamrockOneFive said:

higher high six diving pass (the gunner doesn't seem to be able to point fully up)

This is my favored approach as well, both for Stukas and IL-2s with tail gunners.  They have trouble hitting you in a steep nearly vertical dive from behind, and it makes the gunner an easy target so you can finish them off later.  Just have to practice sharp angle deflection.

[Guest deleted@210880]

Man that is hard. It's the gunners that are the problem as far as I see, they start firing up to 1200m away, that and the twisting of the Stuka that gives them so many chances to just pepper you.

 

At times it feels in that mission like being attacked by very determined zombie grannies.

 

If you view the track please excuse the terrible flying, and ignorance of the p47. Also, note that 2 get taken out by a collision between them both, I'm claiming that as skill on my part thank you very much . Oh and I forgot to start the track until just after the first pass where I managed to tag one of them.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w6k37z4wr8yll2c/JY_Stuka_track.7z?dl=0

 

I also had my game crash on exiting after that mission which very very rarely happens.

Edited June 13, 2020 by deleted@210880

[MattS]

20 minutes ago, John_Yossarian said:

 

 

I also had my game crash on exiting after that mission which very very rarely happens.

 

Can't possibly be a coincidence at this point ? 

 

 

[Stoopy]

1 hour ago, MattS said:

 

Can't possibly be a coincidence at this point ? 

 

 

 

It might be the Lapino map.  I'm going to transfer this to the Stalingrad map and see if it reproduces.

[MattS]

39 minutes ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

 

It might be the Lapino map.  I'm going to transfer this to the Stalingrad map and see if it reproduces.

 

I played a whole bunch of missions against Stukas on the Stalingrad map over the past few days and got a lot of this blurry texture and CTD business. Actually did a fresh reinstall, diabled mods, nothing in the Nvidia control panel etc. just to narrow things down.

[Stoopy]

5 minutes ago, MattS said:

 

I played a whole bunch of missions against Stukas on the Stalingrad map over the past few days and got a lot of this blurry texture and CTD business. Actually did a fresh reinstall, diabled mods, nothing in the Nvidia control panel etc. just to narrow things down.

 

Interesting.  On my side it seems this is an old mission that isn't behaving well.  I redid it from scratch and the issues went away.

 

I'll test some more and if all goes well will re-upload a new version including variations with other planes like the P-40, P39, La5FN, Yak9T, and Mc.202 just for fun.  SO we can get back to business on these d@#! Stukas!!!

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by =[TIA]=Stoopy

[ACG_Bobo]

+1 on the blurred textures and freeze, happens to me and my squad mates.  Only since latest 4007 and 4K Stuka textures.

And yes the Stuka can out turn any plane in the game, it's just too slow to take advantage of it!

Funny thing is, an airfield fired a flare when I was approaching and as soon as the flare was shot, the graphics snapped back to being focused.

Edited June 14, 2020 by III./SG77-K_Bobo

[Stoopy]

30 minutes ago, III./SG77-K_Bobo said:

+1 on the blurred textures and freeze, happens to me and my squad mates.  Only since latest 4007 and 4K Stuka textures.

And yes the Stuka can out turn any plane in the game, it's just too slow to take advantage of it!

Funny thing is, an airfield fired a flare when I was approaching and as soon as the flare was shot, the graphics snapped back to being focused.

 

I also got similar restoration of the blurred textures after some time, I agree with your speculation it's the new 4K Stuka textures.  It's as if the textures for your aircraft take many minutes to load.  I flew an I-16 against them and the gauges were nice and crisp, but the cockpit edge where the landing gear indicators show were very blurred, and the skin that I selected didn't show up until several minutes after starting the flight, and when it did the rest of the cockpit cleared up.

 

I think these Stukas are just possessed.  I went to go change the aircraft type to swap them out for BF110's to test the theory, and the mission editor locks up when I change their properties to a new aircraft. Something is definitely nuts here beside the inscrutable AI.

 

[MattS]

34 minutes ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

 

 inscrutable AI.

 

 

Great way to describe it. The point of all this practice has been to build my skills so I could maybe explore the SP career mode, but at this point to hell with that.

 

Thanks for everyone's advice etc. Good luck with the Blurries/Crash problems, I'm sure they'll figure it out.

[Stoopy]

16 minutes ago, MattS said:

 

Great way to describe it. The point of all this practice has been to build my skills so I could maybe explore the SP career mode, but at this point to hell with that.

 

Thanks for everyone's advice etc. Good luck with the Blurries/Crash problems, I'm sure they'll figure it out.

 

Just FYI I swapped BF110's in place of the Stukas and it's night and day.  Same AI level, their gunners can't hit squat and in the P-40 you can just have your way with them until you run out of ammo, then it's too fun just to play around with them.  Nothing like the phsychic zombie grannies as @John_Yossarian so adeptly put it. 

 

No texture issues or lockup on exit either!

 

So it's not all bad news.

Edited June 14, 2020 by =[TIA]=Stoopy

[Guest deleted@210880]

6 hours ago, MattS said:

so I could maybe explore the SP career mode, but at this point to hell with that.

 

In SP career* the AI has waypoints to follow and targets to attack, so I've never noticed quite such difficulty as in the test mission here where they are dogfighting. Rear gunners yes seem to be able to shoot successfuly in a greater arc (especially down and to the side it feels) than I expect based on other games, but don't let it stop you from giving PWCG a go.

 

*recent experience based only on PWCG

[Stoopy]

3 hours ago, John_Yossarian said:

 

In SP career* the AI has waypoints to follow and targets to attack, so I've never noticed quite such difficulty as in the test mission here where they are dogfighting. Rear gunners yes seem to be able to shoot successfuly in a greater arc (especially down and to the side it feels) than I expect based on other games, but don't let it stop you from giving PWCG a go.

 

*recent experience based only on PWCG

 

Another VERY GOOD point that should be taken into account.  I deliberatly set the Stukas up for a dogfight with a command to attack the P-47 repeatedly (whenever they are damaged or one is killed, that attack is issued again to ensure they don't break off).  I thought that was part of the goal, to have as challenging a dogfight as possible.  I seriously doubt you'd ever run across that in other SP missions, maybe you'd get close to that in the QMB. 

 

The latest iteration that I'm playing with has them flying straight to a couple of waypoints before they attack you, and although the rear gunners will defend, you get at least a pass or two on them before the furball starts.  It's a bit more reasonable and makes a difference.

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by =[TIA]=Stoopy

[Guest deleted@210880]

I think the dog fighting mission is VERY good practice generally and perhaps for getting to know new aircraft to see how they fare against the legions of grandmas. It certainly had me thinking more than my usual 4 vs 4 fighter practice.

[Stoopy]

5 hours ago, John_Yossarian said:

I think the dog fighting mission is VERY good practice generally and perhaps for getting to know new aircraft to see how they fare against the legions of grandmas. It certainly had me thinking more than my usual 4 vs 4 fighter practice.

 

Agreed!  I might polish up the variations I made and post 'em.   Had a ton of fun with them today.

 

As regards the P-47, never say die (and take the extra ammo loadout!!).    It ain't pretty, but I got all 4 of them bastid inscrutable psychotic zombie grannies... although without the pinache and style points of coercing any of them into a spectacular midair like you did.  Here's the track:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BvccZc3ETuZs5l5LvFk-fNh2vQ3cFYf0/view?usp=sharing

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by =[TIA]=Stoopy

[Lusekofte]

The stuka messes up the game for me. Blurred out instrument panel and skin. Cannot choose skin and freeze up the computer. Need restart

[Stoopy]

24 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

The stuka messes up the game for me. Blurred out instrument panel and skin. Cannot choose skin and freeze up the computer. Need restart

 

You are certainly not alone Sir.  Let's hope the developers are looking into it.

 

[The_Grim_1]

This Walt Disney video taught me the fundamentals of attacking bombers and what approach to use. I highly recommend it. Fundamental Fixed Gunnery Approaches

[MattS]

2 hours ago, The_Grim_1 said:

This Walt Disney video taught me the fundamentals of attacking bombers and what approach to use. I highly recommend it. Fundamental Fixed Gunnery Approaches

 

Nice! I will never be able to unsee this though ?