190 A-6 and Bf 109 G-6 Late

[SAS_Storebror]

2 hours ago, CountZero said:

But i can just play with G6 that is 5$

 

Then for gods sake: Do it.

Nobody's forcing you to buy anything.

This selfish "feed me with a spoon and bend backwards to give me my personal dreamplane !!!" is slowly becoming boring.

 

Mike

[Raven109]

@CountZero, thanks for taking the time to explain the situation in a calm and detailed manner, even when the name calling started.

 

I think the devs understand our points, and knowing that they care more about their player base than some here do, I hope that they will re-consider the line-up for BoN. The FW was released in BoS, despite the fact that it didn't even operate in the AO, so there still is hope that the name of BoN doesn't strictly limit the line-up only to aircraft that operated in the AO.

 

No one is asking for free planes...

 

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Raven109

[Yogiflight]

Maybe some guys should think about starting arguing about what they get, once they know what they will get.

[CountZero]

2 hours ago, Raven109 said:

@CountZero, thanks for taking the time to explain the situation in a calm and detailed manner, even when the name calling started.

 

I think the devs understand our points, and knowing that they care more about their player base than some here do, I hope that they will re-consider the line-up for BoN. The FW was released in BoS, despite the fact that it didn't even operate in the AO, so there still is hope that the name of BoN doesn't strictly limit the line-up only to aircraft that operated in the AO.

 

No one is asking for free planes...

 

 

For me i just dont get what is wrong with buying 109G6 for 5$ and 190A3 for 5$ and then BoBp for 50-75% off and be able to play on all BoN missions youll enounter online insted geting BoN with 109g6 and 190a6, you get better deall and not miss a thing more smarter way to spend money when deal of fighters ofered is basicly same. Even if server is full historical (something that dont exist online) you could still play with 109G6and 190A8 for less money spend. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by CountZero

[=621=Samikatz]

If someone only wants to fly the best of one family of fighters on one side in the sim that's their business I suppose? I imagine the majority of people are not like that and will appreciate the rest of the offerings

[Raven109]

40 minutes ago, CountZero said:

For me i just dont get what is wrong with buying 109G6 for 5$ and 190A3 for 5$ and then BoBp for 50-75% off and be able to play on all BoN missions youll enounter online insted geting BoN with 109g6 and 190a6, you get better deall and not miss a thing more smarter way to spend money when deal of fighters ofered is basicly same. Even if server is full historical (something that dont exist online) you could still play with 109G6and 190A8 for less money spend. 

Yes, the deal is good and certainly valid, as far as we know. But it's not about this. What you see in the last posts is about the red vs blue high school drama that is going on in the forums, and we're just caught up in it, even though we don't care. You don't see any of the people who are arguing here against a new German plane going to the bug fix thread for the P-51 and arguing against it, or going to the I-153 thread arguing against adding the I-153... (since we've all been recently taught that wanting airplanes in an airplane simulator is selfish). 

 

They simply think that you're here to ask for a better German plane and feel threatened, even though both of us have been posting in the damage threads for the 109 invincible tail DM to be fixed.... thus kind of hinting that we don't favor a side or the other...

 

 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Raven109

[CUJO_1970]

Can’t believe I’m agreeing with CountZero about something. ?

 

He’s exactly right about this, though. 

[SAS_Storebror]

7 hours ago, Raven109 said:

the red vs blue high school drama that is going on in the forums

 

You've just contributed to it. Must be pretty relevant to you.

 

7 hours ago, Raven109 said:

You don't see any of the people who are arguing here against a new German plane

 

Aren't you and CZ the ones who are arguing against the G-6 late?

I'm fine with it.

 

7 hours ago, Raven109 said:

going to the bug fix thread for the P-51 and arguing against it, or going to the I-153 thread arguing against adding the I-153... (since we've all been recently taught that wanting airplanes in an airplane simulator is selfish).

 

.  <--- Point

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You

 

To follow your argument, please: Before starting to complain about virtual planes in a CFS, please take care of the relevant issues of this world first.

Climate change for instance, child abuse, Covid, just to mention a few of the millions.

When you're done with all that, then by your argument you might be eligible to return and argue about a G-6 late vs. AS.

Not that I like the idea, but since you seem to tick like that, be consequent about it.

 

Mike

[41Sqn_Skipper]

2 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

When you're done with all that, then by your argument you might be eligible to return and argue about a G-6 late vs. AS.

 

Let's better discuss the need for a Fw 190 A-8 without "Erhöhte Notleistung" for pre-invasion use.

Or even if the A-7 would be a better choice than the A-6. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by 41Sqn_Skipper

[Pikestance]

18 hours ago, CountZero said:

But i can just play with G6 that is 5$, why buy G6 from BoN if its basicly same airplane if they dont add more modifications to its engine. They added modifications to airplanes that dont fit before, i just give you example of whole airplane that they added in BoN that is wrong type and dont even have base of operation on map so its no problem to just add more modifications to G6 that comes with BoN to make it more differant from G6 that yu can get as collector airplane.

 

I already told you I am not an apologist for the developer's decisions. I am not sure why you keep belaboring the point. Each 109 they produced will not be significantly better than the previous or significantly worse than the succeeding aircraft. They all do handle differently, but it comes down to personal preference. 

 

18 hours ago, CountZero said:

And post you quoted gives you all historicly correct airplanes for battles in normandy, but somehow you think they are unhistorical ?

 

I made a generic statement. The first map, some of those planes would not be there. The G14 was not introduced until July 1944. This would be quite some time after the invasion. That being said, simply being introduced does not mean they were there in large numbers. 

 

18 hours ago, CountZero said:

Every single popular server online is not full historical you have airplanes from other dlcs that dont fit that timeline and so on, and yet you said theat people who play online like that are " minority of the minority. " So i ask, as i realy dont know, on what servers you play that is full historical you got picture that major part of online players are for historical play only, to me from what i see that is not true in practice.

So again you dont need BoN if your fighter player to be able to play on online missions on it, and again why buy BoN if your fighter player for axis when you can just use airplanes from other DLCs or collector airplanes for mutch cheaper price and have historical planset for missions youll encounter on most popular servers online where major amount of players play and have no problem with bendings of airplane types so all DLCs owners can play on most missions.

 

I think you didn't read what I wrote very well. I stated on several occasions and in that post that there isn't a true historical server. They are more concerned with "balance" than anything else. MP only players are the minority. The majority is SP players only. I fit in the third category, both. The vast majority of players on MP log very few minutes on any servers. (I did some basic research on it). Of the active participants, a few are into flying only the "best" aircraft. I am told most fly the aircraft they are most familiar with. Personally, I would fly the G4 over the G6 and i would fly the G4 over the G2 and it has nothing to do with if it is considered better. I am more comfortable in it and i fly it better than any other aircraft. Who knows maybe i will like the Late G6 over the G14? 

 

I do not subscribe the notion that people will only buy a game because the reason you stated. Perhaps, this would be something they contemplate with collector planes. I know I do. I do not fly allied planes, but I have every CP except the latest two. Based on what I have read, most on here are not nearly as cynical as yourself. They will buy and buy happily to support the Developers. 

[Raven109]

2 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Aren't you and CZ the ones who are arguing against the G-6 late?

I'm fine with it.

 

No... we're not arguing against the G-6Late.... this quote here just goes to prove that half of this thread is just some guys missing the point, and derailing because of this.... and the irony of it is that you're accusing us of missing the point.

 

No one is saying that we shouldn't be getting the G-6Late. 

 

What I'm saying (the others might add to this if they wish):

a. If the G-6 has a high tail, it would be nice for it to have an influence on the FM (and not be just a 3D model);

b. Add more mods to the G-6 (i.e. U2/U3)

c. Add a collector plane (G-6AS / M)

 

Other points:

a. If you already own the G-6 (and enjoy flying the 109 the most) there is not much of an incentive for you to buy BoN;

 

These are wishes and facts.... expressing them just like the I-153/P-51/P-38 guys are doing... I'm sorry that you don't like us doing that...

[=RS=Stix_09]

On 6/15/2020 at 1:33 AM, CountZero said:

If players is axis fighter type (most comon thing in MP univers in this game) why would he even buy BoN, we already had BoBp at 50% (even if you buy standard you get best fighter airplanes you need for BoN or BoBp and any late war missions on east front maps) and by time BoN is near end it will be at 75% price, and also you can get best anton 190a3 at 75% and 109G6 also at 75%, both can be used in MP on BoN missions so for 22$ you have all what you need, why spend 60$ for standard BoN just to get A6 and same G6. So if they dont spice up the offer and add as most posible G6Late modifications they can, why would axis fighter player buy BoN and just BoN, most will have BoBp as it has best airplanes and its gona be cheap and airplanes can be used alot.

 

I'm not sure I agree. The late bf109 g6 is quite different to the early bf109g6,(Late g6 has more in common with the G14 ) also BON comes with a lot of other planes too, and a new map (for offline play). I would personally rather have the late g6 , and its the reason I did not get the G6 collector plane(when I have all the other collector planes) even if its an iconic plane and the most produced.

 

Multiplayer plane set will depend on server setup and time period, so owning just BOP may limit your options on some servers and missions.

 

BON has some very iconic cool planes. Like the P51 B ( I love that plane) Mosquito,Typhoon, Razorback and Me410.

 

The early G6 is basically a better armed G4. (MG131 and option MK108)

 

Late G6 , some had dif tails and all had MW50/Gm-1 (not sure what options we will get , but I suspect the already modeled MW50)

 

Quote

 

• 2 Collector Planes (Spitfire Mk.XIV and Ar 234)
•  8 Battle of Normandy Aircraft (P-51B/C, P-47D “Razorback”, Typhoon Mk.Ib, Mosquito F.B. Mk.VI, Bf 109 G-6 “Late”, Fw 190 A-6, Ju 88 C-6a and Me 410)

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09

[Pikestance]

29 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

 

Other points:

a. If you already own the G-6 (and enjoy flying the 109 the most) there is not much of an incentive for you to buy BoN;

 

 

If you already enjoy flying the 109, then that would be an incentive to getting the BON. 

I have that plus, I find the G6 sluggish for my liking and would like to see how it flies. Moreover, my unit flew the late g then the K4. I would rather fly the G6 late over the G14 for that reason. 

 

I want it all! Give it to me! 

[=RS=Stix_09]

6 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

If you already enjoy flying the 109, then that would be an incentive to getting the BON. 

I have that plus, I find the G6 sluggish for my liking and would like to see how it flies. Moreover, my unit flew the late g then the K4. I would rather fly the G6 late over the G14 for that reason. 

 

I want it all! Give it to me! 

 

I agree. I don't like the early g6, I prefer the F4 or G2 /G14/K4 over this plane, as they perform better. The fw190 A3 is also a great anton to have , its worth the collector purchase IMHO.

Edited June 17, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09

[Dutchvdm]

22 minutes ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

 

I agree. I don't like the early g6, I prefer the F4 or G2 /G14/K4 over this plane, as they perform better. The fw190 A3 is also a great anton to have , its worth the collector purchase IMHO.

 

Funny how that differs from person to person. I like the G6 because it was actually used in Kuban. Currently the A3 is a wasted slot imho. You can't really use it in any career and without some of the nothern eastern fronts or early channel map scenario's that's going to stay that way.

 

Grt M

[=RS=Stix_09]

23 minutes ago, I./ZG1_Dutchvdm said:

 

Funny how that differs from person to person. I like the G6 because it was actually used in Kuban. Currently the A3 is a wasted slot imho. You can't really use it in any career and without some of the nothern eastern fronts or early channel map scenario's that's going to stay that way.

 

Grt M

 

The A3 is usable where any anton is usable (it handles better then the A8 and A5, and outclimbs both), depending on how u use it.

 

The A5 was built with ground attack in mind. For pure fighter attack I prefer the A3, in late periods when a8 is usable , other planes do a better job like the d9

 

The U17 mod only works on the deck below 1km

The g2 and g4 were also used in kuban. The only scenario I would like to have a early g6 is killing bombers with the mk108, but I would rather use the A3 instead (or the bf110g2)

 

edit:
A3 is a Stalingrad plane , so should fit that period in career.

Edited June 17, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09

[SAS_Storebror]

1 hour ago, Raven109 said:

If you already own the G-6 (and enjoy flying the 109 the most) there is not much of an incentive for you to buy BoN

If you are just into one single plane then that's totally up to you, but you can't expect the devs to circle around just that single plane you fell in love with.

Apart from that, focussing on just one single plane you just don't know what you're missing.

 

Anyone care if I mention that lately the tone on this forum became pretty toxic?

Probably not.

 

Mike

[41Sqn_Skipper]

1 hour ago, Raven109 said:

What I'm saying (the others might add to this if they wish):

a. If the G-6 has a high tail, it would be nice for it to have an influence on the FM (and not be just a 3D model);

b. Add more mods to the G-6 (i.e. U2/U3)

c. Add a collector plane (G-6AS / M)

 

I like that realistic view. Not sure if the FM is detailed enough so that a different rudder would cause a noticable difference (is it even noticable in reality for the pilot?). 

Is there noticable FM difference between G-6 and G-14 (without enabled MW-50 and maybe reduced fuel to compensate the weight of the MW-50 tank)? I would assume that the G-6 Late and G-14 will have a very similar or even identical FM.

 

Regarding priorities: U3 mod should be priority as it has the most useful performance impact and the mechanic is already implement. U2 is less useful in general and it requires a new mechanic. It would be very interesting from a technical perspective, though.

 

/AS ... I personally don't see the usefulness of it. Isn't it mainly used in Reichsverteidigung, which can't be represented? 

And implementation effort is huge (different 3D model, different engine, different FM).

IMHO there are more important candidates for collectors planes, e.g. an early Spitfire IX with C wing and Merlin 61 should be on top of the list. It would close the big 42/43 gap on the western front. This will immediately allow the use of the existing earlier Bf 109 G and Fw 190 A variants on BON map. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by 41Sqn_Skipper

[Raven109]

1 minute ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

If you already enjoy flying the 109, then that would be an incentive to getting the BON. 

I have that plus, I find the G6 sluggish for my liking and would like to see how it flies. Moreover, my unit flew the late g then the K4. I would rather fly the G6 late over the G14 for that reason. 

 

I want it all! Give it to me! 

 

G6 + Erla hood + tall tail:

- handling: same as G6 if the FM doesn't account for the tall tail; (even if the FM will be modified all 109s are quite stable, so I would expect to see only a marginal change; maybe a change to the collector G6 could be implemented such that its FM will be different from the tall tail version);

- visibility: better than the G6;

G6 + Erla hood + tall tail + MW50:

- handling: same as G14;

- visibility: same as G14;

G6 + Erla hood:

- handling: same as G6;

- visibility: better than the G6;

 

If nothing is done to the FM to represent the improvement brought by the tall tail, the G6 late without MW50 (just a 3d model change, Erla hood and tall tail), should be the same as the G6 collector plane when it comes to handling; 

 

The G6 late with MW50, is the same as the G-14 from BoBp; The G-14 is the (failed) attempt to standardize the many versions of the G-6... the only subtle internal differences should not lead to any FM changes.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The larger Tail was added for High Speed Stability. The Short Tail had a tendency to add a lot of Slip in a Dive, Osciallate and require a very heavy Foot to keep Straight at Terminal Velocities, makind Aiming very hard.

Any other gains were Coincidental.

[=RS=Stix_09]

3 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

 

G6 + Erla hood + tall tail:

- handling: same as G6 if the FM doesn't account for the tall tail; (even if the FM will be modified all 109s are quite stable, so I would expect to see only a marginal change; maybe a change to the collector G6 could be implemented such that its FM will be different from the tall tail version);

- visibility: better than the G6;

G6 + Erla hood + tall tail + MW50:

- handling: same as G14;

- visibility: same as G14;

G6 + Erla hood:

- handling: same as G6;

- visibility: better than the G6;

 

If nothing is done to the FM to represent the improvement brought by the tall tail, the G6 late without MW50 (just a 3d model change, Erla hood and tall tail), should be the same as the G6 collector plane when it comes to handling; 

 

The G6 late with MW50, is the same as the G-14 from BoBp; The G-14 is the (failed) attempt to standardize the many versions of the G-6... the only subtle internal differences should not lead to any FM changes.

 

only some planes had the erla hood it was factory specific mod

[Raven109]

Just now, =RS=Stix_09 said:

 

only some planes had the erla hood it was factory specific mod

 

Yes, you are right, which means you could get the G14 performance with G6 visibilty.

 

 

[=RS=Stix_09]

Everyone has different preferences in what they want , no solution works for all. I believe any choice can be validated, and it will suit you and no one else or it may suite many. 

 

Myself I can see value in any plane in il-2 GB, and even choices that suit others which do not suite me, they are perfectly valid to some based on what they like , even if I or others do not agree. 

 

If you are happy with it , its a good choice, regardless of what others feel.

Edited June 17, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

Well on this topic.... My understanding is the only G-6s with MW50 were converted U2s (excluding reconnaisance airplanes like the U3 which aren't really relevant for il-2). Looking between various production figures I've seen anything between ~40 G-6/U2 produced to ~250 (priens book)produced/converted between late 43 and early 44.... Some of which were U2/AS....? Plus maybe some amount of G-5/U2. Looking at Bestandsmeldungen on ww2.dk however the only unit with a substantial amount of U2 aircraft was III./JG1in July 44.

 

If there indeed were so many G-6/U2 does anyone know which units got them and when?

[CUJO_1970]

G14 performance with G6 visibility? And we couldn't have that, now could we? What's next? The end of the world?

 

 

[=RS=Stix_09]

5 minutes ago, 9./JG27DefaultFace said:

Well on this topic.... My understanding is the only G-6s with MW50 were converted U2s (excluding reconnaisance airplanes like the U3 which aren't really relevant for il-2). Looking between various production figures I've seen anything between ~40 G-6/U2 produced to ~250 (priens book)produced/converted between late 43 and early 44.... Some of which were U2/AS....? Plus maybe some amount of G-5/U2. Looking at Bestandsmeldungen on ww2.dk however the only unit with a substantial amount of U2 aircraft was III./JG1in July 44.

 

If there indeed were so many G-6/U2 does anyone know which units got them and when?

[Bremspropeller]

21 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

The end of the world?

 

 

[1./JG42Nephris]

Guys you got seriously too much of freetime ?

 

Hope you deal with you girlz and remaining real life probs with the same passion you invest for a ... game.?

Edited June 17, 2020 by 1./JG42Nephris

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

6 minutes ago, 9./JG27DefaultFace said:

Well on this topic.... My understanding is the only G-6s with MW50 were converted U2s (excluding reconnaisance airplanes like the U3 which aren't really relevant for il-2). Looking between various production figures I've seen anything between ~40 G-6/U2 produced to ~250 (priens book)produced/converted between late 43 and early 44.... Some of which were U2/AS....? Plus maybe some amount of G-5/U2. Looking at Bestandsmeldungen on ww2.dk however the only unit with a substantial amount of U2 aircraft was III./JG1in July 44.

 

If there indeed were so many G-6/U2 does anyone know which units got them and when?

As far as I understand the Sources there were around 300 New Production U-2s AND an additional Number of Factory Conversions, around 240 which could be converted to MW50, while no U-3s were actually built or produced as such, but most U-2s were Field or Factory Converted.

[SAS_Storebror]

@=RS=Stix_09, here's the missing remaining part of the text you've shown, page 114 continues like this:

 

 

Sounds like the AS version in fact was in front service when D-Day took place.

 

Mike

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

GM1 was for very high altitude performance correct? This is something I would very much look forward to as I hate not being able to use MW50 above 6K.

[Raven109]

35 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

G14 performance with G6 visibility? And we couldn't have that, now could we? What's next? The end of the world?

 

I think we can have any combination we wish. The point of the list was to show that either way you go, you have either a G6 with a minor tweak, or a G14 with a minor tweak.

 

1 minute ago, II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson said:

GM1 was for very high altitude performance correct? This is something I would very much look forward to as I hate not being able to use MW50 above 6K.

Yes, so were the AS engines.

[sevenless]

46 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

 

G6 + Erla hood + tall tail:

- handling: same as G6 if the FM doesn't account for the tall tail; (even if the FM will be modified all 109s are quite stable, so I would expect to see only a marginal change; maybe a change to the collector G6 could be implemented such that its FM will be different from the tall tail version);

- visibility: better than the G6;

 

This is the only version that makes any sense as a "late" G6. Retrofitted G6/U2 for MW 50 earliest in late Mai. Dunno if JG 2 or JG 26 had them at al, but the Defense of the Reich units surely did.

 

Because of that and the clusterduck the late G6 was, see my proposal earlier in this thread:

 

Best would be to have three config options for the late plane, which you can use independantly:

- Erla hood

- Tall tail

- MW 50 (late Mai onwards)

 

54 minutes ago, =RS=Stix_09 said:

 

only some planes had the erla hood it was factory specific mod

 

It wasn´t. It was frequently retrofitted in the field.

[41Sqn_Skipper]

11 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

 

I think we can have any combination we wish. The point of the list was to show that either way you go, you have either a G6 with a minor tweak, or a G14 with a minor tweak

 

Considering that there are already 8 Bf 109 variants for a 4 years timeframe, it's obvious that the differences between each development step can only be minor.

Edited June 17, 2020 by 41Sqn_Skipper

[sevenless]

23 minutes ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Sounds like the AS version in fact was in front service when D-Day took place.

 

Mike

 

It was from April 44 onwards. JG 11 received the first machines. There is a prominent photo collection of Specht and Tank around his crate at Wunsdorf. Same unit Knoke served in. IIRC it was 28th April.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by sevenless

[SAS_Storebror]

5 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

7 minutes ago, II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson said:

GM1 was for very high altitude performance correct?

Yes, so were the AS engines.

 

Correct, the DB 605 AS engines were using the larger charger from the DB 603 which increased the rated altitude from ~5.8 to ~7.8 kilometers.

In return, the charger would need slightly more power from the engine, so the performance on deck suffers a bit.

GM-1 is nitrous oxide (laughing gas) and as such is effectly above rated altitude only.

This means that most of the time you will probably find little use for GM-1, whereas MW-50 is the exact opposite: More power up to rated altitude.

 

Mike

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

MW50 provides some (although not as much) performance increase above the rated altitude as well.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

But decreases Time to Altitude considerably, good for interception.

[Raven109]

4 minutes ago, 41Sqn_Skipper said:

 

Considering that there are already 8 Bf 109 variants for a 4 years, it's obvious that the differences between each development step can only be minor.

 

Yes, I think that it's obvious for the people who use them (and who already own them), and this is why we are having this discussion about other models.

Regarding your points about the U2/AS versions, yes, they are more useful at high altitudes, thus perhaps multiplayer in its current state would not benefit so much, but by adding them maybe new intercept missions (high alt AI bombers intercept - not huge formations, of course) could be created, and the P-47s could be used at high alt where they shine, as escorts.

 

Off-line they could be used in custom scenarios.

[sevenless]

27 minutes ago, SAS_Storebror said:

@=RS=Stix_09, here's the missing remaining part of the text you've shown, page 114 continues like this:

 

 

Sounds like the AS version in fact was in front service when D-Day took place.

 

Mike

 

Addendum: That particular plane, a G6/AS "green 13" is listed here as a G6 although we know better.

 

https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bstjg1.html

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by sevenless