4.006 DM Discussion

[Zooropa_Fly]

47 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

At least we have a possible fix for the invisibility problem. Let's hope it's final, or a dramatic improvement. I'm quite curious to what people's experience will be like in the next few days. Some people complained it happened to them on almost every sortie.

 

I'll probably start seeing them now.. or not as the case may be.

[ST_Catchov]

Why are we talking about 4.008 in an old 4.006 thread? Oh that's right I forgot ..... verboten. We are just the bastard children gagged and neglected in the corner. 

 

So before this thread is also closed, and as I'm not a jug or tank jockey,  the only thing of mild interest to me is numero 62 ....

 

62. The contours of objects against a clouds background have been minimized by using special tech;

 

Has this actually fixed the awful plane rendering in front of clouds?

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, catchov said:

Why are we talking about 4.008 in an old 4.006 thread? Oh that's right I forgot ..... verboten. We are just the bastard children gagged and neglected in the corner. 

 

 

And likely red-headed and freckly too...

 

1 hour ago, catchov said:

 

 

So before this thread is also closed, and as I'm not a jug or tank jockey,  the only thing of mild interest to me is numero 62 ....

 

 

 

That's ashame:  The new Jug is so good, I've vowed to name my first-born Anatoly, regardless of gender.

[Cynic_Al]

3 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

Honestly, I'm curious ? I dedicated too much time to this game. I'm still hopeful.

 

I can't help feeling I've dedicated too much time to something, but not the game itself.

 

Rest assured the damage model is still the same for everyone.

 

 

[No.23_Gaylion]

3 hours ago, catchov said:

 

Has this actually fixed the awful plane rendering in front of clouds?

 

Yep.

[Zooropa_Fly]

5 hours ago, catchov said:

Why are we talking about 4.008 in an old 4.006 thread? Oh that's right I forgot ..... verboten. We are just the bastard children gagged and neglected in the corner. 

 

So before this thread is also closed, and as I'm not a jug or tank jockey,  the only thing of mild interest to me is numero 62 ....

 

62. The contours of objects against a clouds background have been minimized by using special tech;

 

Has this actually fixed the awful plane rendering in front of clouds?

 

Damn, I always though you would be a jug jockey...

 

Spoiler

 

 

But who am I to judge ?   UNLUCKY - NO T*TS !

 

[J2_Drookasi]

6 hours ago, catchov said:

So before this thread is also closed, and as I'm not a jug or tank jockey,  the only thing of mild interest to me is numero 62 ....

 

62. The contours of objects against a clouds background have been minimized by using special tech;

 

Has this actually fixed the awful plane rendering in front of clouds?

 

I think that yes it has. Yesterday, I flew with some J2 mates in a private server, with some clouds. When the planes were in front, behind or in the clouds I had not witnessed the effect that made them look like big dots (which to tell the truth was helping for long distance spotting). Furthermore, when a plane was in front of a cloud, I could see him (with no distortion) when I was to some extent zoomed in, and I could not see him at all when I was zoomed out, until he was about 3km away from me.

 

Just initial impressions that need to be confirmed in the Flugpark.

[ST_Catchov]

On 7/9/2020 at 10:09 AM, SeaSerpent said:

That's ashame:  The new Jug is so good, I've vowed to name my first-born Anatoly, regardless of gender.

 

I love the the Jug, Serpent. A classic warbird. One of the best. But I don't fly it because I don't have any WWII modules.  

 

But it raises the question. If the WWII guys can get the P47's FM corrected due to massive complaints why not the Se5a? God knows we tried. And the silent response says to me that the devs are just done with WW1. And what really galls me about that is this whole GB WWII enterprise began on the back of RoF.  I hope I'm wrong but my hopes are fading.

[J99_Sizzlorr]

1 minute ago, catchov said:

But it raises the question. If the WWII guys can get the P47's FM corrected due to massive complaints why not the Se5a?

 

Do you have any undisputable evidence that something is wrong with the S.E.5a FM?

[ST_Catchov]

7 minutes ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

Do you have any undisputable evidence that something is wrong with the S.E.5a FM?

 

This thread discusses it. And I believe we are waiting on further information from Shuttleworth's Viper. However, Covid-19 has delayed that unfortunately. But regardless, the silence from the devs has been deafening which doesn't sound good.

 

 

[J99_Sizzlorr]

1 minute ago, catchov said:

 

This thread discusses it. And I believe we are waiting on further information from Shuttleworth's Viper. However, Covid-19 has delayed that unfortunately. But regardless, the silence from the devs has been deafening which doesn't sound good.

 

Read all 11 pages. I couldn't find any undisputable evidence in this thread that the S.E.5a FM is off. Maybe that is why they didn't change anything ?

Just a thought...

[No.23_Starling]

10 hours ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

 

Read all 11 pages. I couldn't find any undisputable evidence in this thread that the S.E.5a FM is off. Maybe that is why they didn't change anything ?

Just a thought...

There’s the anecdotal evidence around engine RPM from Shuttleworth, which a few of us suspect relates to prop pitch for the FM we have - tuned for high alt interception and speed right now rather than mid alt bnzing where it’s mostly being used on servers. Even when RoF was popular I don’t think I ever saw a 2 seater up 5k land more than a handful of times. There’s nothing wrong with a high alt version - BoX has the Spit engine variant for high alt performance.

[No.23_Gaylion]

This clips shows what we've been experiencing all this time. 

 

That the damage model is very unpredictable and the visual damage in no way represents what the actual damage is.

 

Maybe what's needed is better audio cues if they can't match up visual damage?

 

Ah crap I thought i was in the other thread

Edited July 11, 2020 by US93_Talbot

[J2_Bidu]

14 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said:

Maybe what's needed is better audio cues if they can't match up visual damage?

 

The problem with the devs is they don't learn with the best !!!

 

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by J2_Bidu

[Wanderfalke]

My limited view on the DM as a D7 pilot.

 

First of all, i don't know anything about the DM and it' perceived problems, as i don't fly Entente and because of my general lack of knowledge and experience concerning this topic.
Having said that, i do often notice that my enemies don't seem to realize the extent of damage i caused to their wing roots. They just keep flying and pushing their plane like nothing happened, while I'm waiting for their wings to get ripped off and when that happens, they claim they came off for no reason at all and start a rant against the Devs and the DM.

Again, i don't know if there is a problem with the DM or not, but i do think the perception that there is, can often lead to a conformation bias.

 

 

[No.23_Starling]

38 minutes ago, Wanderfalke said:

My limited view on the DM as a D7 pilot.

 

First of all, i don't know anything about the DM and it' perceived problems, as i don't fly Entente and because of my general lack of knowledge and experience concerning this topic.
Having said that, i do often notice that my enemies don't seem to realize the extent of damage i caused to their wing roots. They just keep flying and pushing their plane like nothing happened, while I'm waiting for their wings to get ripped off and when that happens, they claim they came off for no reason at all and start a rant against the Devs and the DM.

Again, i don't know if there is a problem with the DM or not, but i do think the perception that there is, can often lead to a conformation bias.

 

 

The Dvii doesn’t have a problem as the wings have been buffed considerably in the recent patches. I’d suggest taking up the Dva or CL2 for a week and compare when you take hits. The difference is considerable. I doubt anyone has any complaints about the dvii underperforming right now.

[Zooropa_Fly]

I think one point is that the DVII air frame is supposed to be one of the strongest, and I would suggest the same for the Dr1.

Not to say everything's perfect.. then again it could never be.

 

There was a horrible suggestion earlier about copying / pasting the best DM across other planes - which fortunately I think is impossible anyway.

Wanderfalke may have touched on something above, every time someone's shot down in a Bristol or Camel at the moment they have a great excuse.

I've not found the DM a huge issue, but then again I don't have Larner shooting at me.

And this might be another point - the chasm of difference between real life and a computer simulation game fashioned 100 years after the event.

The sum of : computer comfort + 1000's hours killing ourselves + 1000's hours gunnery practice + more detailed DM = short fights.

 

Stating the obvious maybe, but for any non-experts - I recommend any of the following to avoid ripping your wings off :

Blip if you have it.

Quick throttle reduction.

Graduate your stick movement.

Use rudder as a break.

 

Any and all of these can help to ease you into a fast turn, it just takes a bit of practice to feel these things out.

I find I can can be plenty aggresive in the Alb and Camel, even with some damage - but that may depend on exactly where the damage is..

 

I think everyone needs to practice getting hit less ?

 

[No.23_Gaylion]

Larner is off playing Battlefield 1 if that says anything lol.

[BMA_Hellbender]

Honestly taking a break is never a bad idea. The game will still be here when you come back.

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

2 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

every time someone's shot down in a Bristol or Camel at the moment they have a great excuse.

You don't rip your wings off in a Bristol, Only grip we have is having your controls taken out with 1 burst, I read enough about the Bristol to know that never happened like in FC. By the way the Bristol was as tough as the D7.

[J99_Sizzlorr]

1 hour ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

You don't rip your wings off in a Bristol, Only grip we have is having your controls taken out with 1 burst, I read enough about the Bristol to know that never happened like in FC. By the way the Bristol was as tough as the D7.

And that is reflected in FC right now. It is quiet a Tank as is the D7. You can also eliminate the D7 controls in one burst right now.

Conclusion: all planes suffer the same way of losing controls when hit in a dogfight.

Edited July 13, 2020 by J99_Sizzlorr

[Zooropa_Fly]

Interestingly the Bristols' elevators were prone to 'getting it' in RoF, whereas I don't think that was even possible with some of the other planes.

Bit like the N17 tail weakness..

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

3 hours ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

And that is reflected in FC right now. It is quiet a Tank as is the D7. You can also eliminate the D7 controls in one burst right now.

Conclusion: all planes suffer the same way of losing controls when hit in a dogfight.

Yes and something is wrong with that, 

 

1 hour ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Interestingly the Bristols' elevators were prone to 'getting it' in RoF, whereas I don't think that was even possible with some of the other planes.

Bit like the N17 tail weakness..

Now 1 burst not only can take out the elevator but all 3 controls surfaces. Happen to me many times, how is that even posable? And not only in the Bristol but all the planes. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

On 7/13/2020 at 3:35 PM, J5_Hellbender said:

Honestly taking a break is never a bad idea. The game will still be here when you come back.

 Yes , I had few months break and what I read is terrible,  I need to test that out and if all post some proved complaints in the beta forum ?

Edited September 30, 2020 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[No.23_Gaylion]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

 Yes , I had few months break and what I read is terrible,  I need to test that out and if all post some proved complaints in the beta forum ?

 

Be sure to mention this satisfaction survey: 

 

[J99_Sizzlorr]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

 Yes , I had few months break and what I read is terrible,  I need to test that out and if all post some proved complaints in the beta forum ?

You can try this but to me it seems the devs don't want to discuss the DM.

 

What I tried so far with no results:

 

1. Wrote a P.M. to Jason a month ago. It says that he hasn't read it yet. No response.

2. Wrote a P.M. to Han a month ago. It says he hasn't read it yet. No response.

3. Made a post in the bugs and technical support forum. Got ignorged.

4. After a ww2 bloke asked a ww2 damage model question and got an answer, I rephrased his exact same wording only about ww1 DM. My post got deleted.

5. Thanked them for the spledid conversation and their time. Post got deleted.

 

Well no answer is still an answer. And deleting posts is also an answer. I don't bother anymore and I sure as heck don't buy any AA trucks. I feel treated like a step child. They don't converse with us until we get scandalous! @Jason_Williams please fix this.

Edited September 30, 2020 by J99_Sizzlorr

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

I suspect I won't buy anything else.

[J2_Bidu]

If they know the problem exists, and if they have priirities, talking about it won't help or change anything. I imagine they may be a but fed up. DM affects parts of the community differently. They must see the global picture. Example: for me, shimmering is a more serious problem than DM. And yes, I do fly Entente 50% of the time.

[BMA_Hellbender]

If WWI flightsims had twice the playerbase and half the complexity, we'd have everything we'd ever wanted, and more. We'd be wondering why Volume 6 hasn't been announced yet now that Volume 4 is nearing completion and Volume 5 is in pre-production. I'd personally be apalled by the fact that my Hanriot HD.1 doesn't have the large rudder field mod yet (standard on the HD.2).

 

For now, all I can say is... STAR WAR SQUADRONS HYPE!

[Zooropa_Fly]

I've heard the HD1 isn't planned until FC9.

 

S!

[Chill31]

I will have 2 SE5 wings that are...trash. any one live in GA and have a .303 to test damage?

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

23 minutes ago, Chill31 said:

I will have 2 SE5 wings that are...trash. any one live in GA and have a .303 to test damage?

 

Sounds like something off of the IraqVeteran8888 channel - emptying a .303 rifle into some wings on camera. He's in Georgia.

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

2 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

If WWI flight Sims had twice the player base and half the complexity

Like I.ve said I think a million times now, Before the DM we were getting large numbers even to the point the server was full and some had to wait to get in. This is with just one map and the first module, Plus they have from what I hear the best game for VR, What a great selling point if there was one. 

[CB77Don246]

4 hours ago, J5_Klugermann said:

I suspect I won't buy anything else.

+ 1

 

I feel cheated after buying FC in the hope that FC was the new R.O.F. How wrong could I have been a few planes and a small map. 

 

Back to MSFS 2020 I now have the world what a sim.

[No.23_Gaylion]

2 hours ago, Chill31 said:

I will have 2 SE5 wings that are...trash. any one live in GA and have a .303 to test damage?

 

Umm....

 

YOUR TRASH IS MY TREASURE.

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

20 minutes ago, CB77Don246 said:

+ 1

 

I feel cheated after buying FC in the hope that FC was the new R.O.F. How wrong could I have been a few planes and a small map. 

 

Back to MSFS 2020 I now have the world what a sim.

 

 

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

2 hours ago, Chill31 said:

I will have 2 SE5 wings that are...trash. any one live in GA and have a .303 to test damage?

 

Interesting you should ask for this,  @Chill31 .

 

Heres the working theory for a fix I have been floating about certain ears.  It revolves around exactly what you are bringing up....

 

The spars data was wrong.  So it got "fixed".   That was supposed to be the end of everything. Except....

 

Q1.  If spar data was/is still incorrect, what else is?

A1.  Measure your SE5a spars and compare to the data published by Andy.

 

Q2.  What is the .303 "data" in Andy's table?

A2.  We don't know, but your proposed "test" will help us and perhaps him ALOT.

 

Here is my theory of an affordable and quick "interim fix" for the FC Damage model....pray that seeing eyes see, and hearing ears let them hear....

 

Fact:  The FC and WWII milieu is interconnected.   Make a change in one and you make changes across the board.

Fix:     Create a special FC only .303 ammo type that is only used by FC planes.  It becomes a "dial" that devs can "tune" in and only affect FC.  Set it where it currently is and reduce it by 10% a month until there is some consensus for FUN. 

Take your data on the SE5a and start there in terms of modeling the effects of a .303 round, after comparing your actual spar measurements are consistent with Andy's published spar measurements (and why hasn't there been a solid fact check on the sources of his data; I haven't heard anything on that, only grumblings about the relative measurements compared to everyone's favorite plane).

If we are really lucky, perhaps Andy dials the spar data in accordance with whatever data you find as a baseline AND starts turning the FUN meter up by dialing the .303 damage model down. 

 

The above would be a quick fix.  Perfect?  Absolutely not!  Historical?  Absolutely not (but possibly closer than we think).  FUN?  Most definitely!   Profitable?  Most likely!   Flying Circus 2?  Probably!

Edited September 30, 2020 by J5_Baeumer

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

I still want my secret Stuka ammo tho

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

Like I.ve said I think a million times now, Before the DM we were getting large numbers even to the point the server was full and some had to wait to get in. This is with just one map and the first module, Plus they have from what I hear the best game for VR, What a great selling point if there was one. 

 

Numbers weren't that great even before 4.000x that changed the DM.   On the WW2 servers, the total player hours probably amounts to over a 1000 hours a day.  In short, that means that you can go in and play with adequate numbers whenever you want, even in the middle of the night.  With Flying Circus, as it was with Rise of Flight post-2016, were there ever enough numbers to be able to expand beyond arranged Thursday/Sunday fly-ins?

 

For a multiplayer game to truly come alive, it must achieve a certain critical mass of players:  If you have a game where people are constantly complaining about having to "seed" a server, and can only play once or twice a week because there is no one on any other time, that isn't really "large" numbers, is it?

 

A couple of months ago, I was strongly considering playing FC, if for no other reason than old-time's sake.  So I would look at the server list and it would *usually* be like "J5 Flugpark: 1/84", and "Combat Box: 83/84".  That makes it pretty easy to decide whether one is going to fly a Fokker or a Focke-Wulf on any given night.  

 

I hope they fix the damage model, but from an observer's perspective, FC just didn't appear to have been a really popular title to begin with, or at least not very popular when prospective users have the alternative to play something like Bodenplatte on a packed server whenever the whim strikes them.

[Tycoon]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Numbers weren't that great even before 4.000x that changed the DM.   On the WW2 servers, the total player hours probably amounts to over a 1000 hours a day.  In short, that means that you can go in and play with adequate numbers whenever you want, even in the middle of the night.  With Flying Circus, as it was with Rise of Flight post-2016, were there ever enough numbers to be able to expand beyond arranged Thursday/Sunday fly-ins?

 

 

Good point and something that isn't brought up much. The only reason I bought FC was for multiplayer, I just assumed the online numbers would be good because it was new, but even close to release like you said it was bad. I mean yeah certainly much better than what we have now ( which is basically non-existent ) but honestly even if we got back to release numbers I'm not sure that would be good enough for me. Never would have bought FC if I had known how doa it would be. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Tycoon