Typhoon Mk.Ib research

[=FB=VikS]

Hi All!

 

Starting to grab any kind of information about its performance and anything related to it.

 

Is there any reports about 3-x vs 4-x bladed airplanes?

 

Anything about engines used? Some sourses state that Sabre IIb was installed sometimes?

 

Anything about +11lb boost?

[Birdman]

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/typhoon/typhoontest.html

 

Hopefully this is useful.

[Talon_]

16 hours ago, =FB=VikS said:

Anything about engines used? Some sourses state that Sabre IIb was installed sometimes?

 

 

Having done some extensive reading on this, Napier only ever produced one version of the Sabre at a time and it was upgraded in an iterative fashion - that is to say that they didn't continue producing parallel versions, because the engine was the same with only one or two parts changed before being re-labeled "A/B/C". The differences between all Sabre II engines were so small they could be upgraded with field modifications.

 

Sabre II was the first produced but underwent continuous development. In 1943 it had a Combat rating introduced increased from +7lbs 3700rpm to +9lbs 3700rpm, which was used for the testing of the Typhoon IB as early as R.8809 in January 1943. The engine is the same as that in the Tempest from here on as there was only one production line - however Tempests did get priority for the upgraded engines when those upgrades were being serialised.

 

 

One of the first Typhoon 1As off the Gloster production line is noted as having a "Sabre IIA" in December 1943.

 

Sabre IIA (+9lbs 3700rpm) manufactured from Early 1944 with much the same specifications. This is the engine that is upgraded with a couple of strengthened parts and used with 150 grade fuel +11lbs 3700rpm in 1944 until it is found that the special fuel is not required for such boost levels with these parts installed. This is then serialised as...

 

Sabre IIB introduced in September 1944 at +11lbs 3700rpm. Later this becomes 3850rpm though not clear when.

 

Production notes with engines list Sabre IIa from new delivered between April-December 1943 with many engines modified to IIb in 1944:

 

MOST IMPORTANTLY the aircraft delivered between December 1943 and January 1945 that fly for the majority of our campaign were delivered in number with the four blade propeller:

 

 

Other notes:

 

Canopy speeds:

 

Stall speed (Sabre IIA engine)

 

 

Takeoff rating listed as 4000 rpm by USA testing

 

 

Handling & trim:

 

 

 

Unknown date on this data sheet but Tempests would go on to carry much more air to ground ordnance in the future. 140 rounds per gun listed as well as horsepower at +9lbs

 

 

I've spent a lot of time looking at photos from the Imperial War Museum's archive and the 4-blade prop features on most aircraft based on the continent, with 3 blades appearing before the invasion. While the changeover period is not well documented (or even slightly documented as far as I can tell) it seems that it was likely a modification made to aircraft that were subject to an early post-invasion overhaul or delivery.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Talon_

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Also looking at the ww2aircraftperformance page of the Typhoon, looks like through it's mass production the plane gained more performance as build quality improved, taking an early 1943 test wouldn't be representative of a mid 1944 Typhoon and vice versa. I don't know how the dev team plans to model the plane, maybe there could be modification for early style tail and propeller, showing a performance level more akin to 1943, and then a later one with quad-blade and late type tail showing more of a 1944 performance level. This could give more flexibility for the upcoming Normandy map recreating earlier timeframes.

There are some reports of some 2TAF squadrons adopting 150 octane fuel in February 1945 and performing engine modifications which could imply an increase to +11 boost for the earlier spec IIA engines of older planes (I'm supposing newer planes built with IIB engines would have +11 boost from the factory similar to what happened in the Tempest).

I think @LukeFF got some extra info about it.

[Talon_]

3 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

imply an increase to +11 boost for the earlier spec IIA engines of older planes (I'm supposing newer planes built with IIB engines would have +11 boost from the factory similar to what happened in the Tempest).

 

IIA could do +11 with the stronger crank arm upgrade anyway.

[Quinte]

Regarding the 3 or 4 blades thing: I've personally never seen any report on that. Though multiple sources state the following:

 

The original, three-bladed prop Tiffie was very prone to high vibrations, detrimental to piloting and shooting. Those were even amplified when the type transitioned to the fighter-bomber role and had to lift heavy payloads. Experiments to fit a 4-bladed DH prop, thought to solve those issues, started as soon as October, 1941. Handling was deemed unacceptable until after the Tempest arrived, and they decided to fit Typhoons with the Tempest's tailplane, which solved the issue and allowed the use of the new prop. That means that from a 3D model standpoint, changing the prop means changing the tailplane. As far as raw perfomance is concerned, there is probably no other way han to compare different tests with and without the 4 bladed prop, but it'll be hard to isolate the effects of the prop when the canopy, tailplane and engine have changed too.

 

As far as engines goes, all sources seem to indicate the Sabre IIb was indeed fitted to the Typhoon, but as Talon said, the IIa and the IIb are a posteriori designations for the evolution of the same engine. That being said, I've never came across any credible source indicating the Tiffie was cleared for 3850rpm, which for all intents and purposes makes it the exact  same engine as the Sabre IIa we currently have in the Tempest (said Tempest should definitely be cleared for 3850rpm, by the way, though I'm guessing it's impossible to find decent sources for its performance).

[=FB=VikS]

36 minutes ago, Quinte said:

Regarding the 3 or 4 blades thing: I've personally never seen any report on that. Though multiple sources state the following:

 

that is a quote from "Typhoon Wings of 2nd TAF 1943-45. Osprey combat aircraft 86" p.15

"As related earlier, the first production aircraft with four-bladed propellers could not be issued due to problems with their oil seals.
Suitable replacements were located in the USA, but they were not immediately available. Numbers of airframes held by Maintenance Command steadily rose as a solution was sought. It was possible to fit Typhoons with the large (Tempest) tailplane with a three-bladed propeller, but compensating lead weights had to be added to allayvibration, and this remedy was only effective above 2600 rpm (the Sabre was a high-revving engine, cruising at 3150 rpm, with a maximum of 3700 rpm). Nevertheless, the demand to get these aircraft into use was such that more than 200 Typhoons were fitted with this interim measure."

 

as well as there is a plenty of 3x bladers with large tailplane photos available - even during late war stages (actually its very hard to spot differece of early stab and large stab - but when photo quality/photo position is good - its possible), as example:

 

before D-Day (May 1944):

 

Eindhoven AF January 1945:

 

 

 

[Quinte]

Yes, my bad, I wasn't clear enough. I meant you couldn't have the 4-bladed prop without the large tailplane. The opposite is, indeed, possible, so technically you could have all Tiffies with a large tailpane, and the possibility to revert to a three-bladed prop. Seems like quite the hassle to me, only to represent those 200 odd aircrafts, especially given how it would be quite hard to find out what kind of effect it had on their performance?

 

By the way, may I suggest you get in contact with Chris Thomas directly, if you haven't already? He definitely is the authority when it comes to Typhoon/Tempest stuff.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Quinte

[ECV56_Sleeder72]

[JaimeSP]

 

On 5/19/2020 at 8:51 PM, =FB=VikS said:

 

https://bit.ly/2XKh5BR

 

The original manual

[Megalax]

On 5/30/2020 at 3:21 PM, Quinte said:

 

By the way, may I suggest you get in contact with Chris Thomas directly, if you haven't already? He definitely is the authority when it comes to Typhoon/Tempest stuff.

 

He's also a stand up guy. He's answered more than one of my questions on the Facebook Typhoon/Tempest group.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/tempesttyphoon/?ref=group_header

Edited June 7, 2020 by Megalax

[DN308]

Maybe you can ask these guys restorations a real Hawker Typhoon 

https://www.facebook.com/hawkertyphoonRB396/

[Megalax]

 

The infrequently photographed RP-3 60lb Fragmentation projectile; correctly named

"Shell, H.E. 60 lb, "F" No. 1 Mk I" on MK.III lightweight rails.

 

 

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/typhoonpropsf_1.htm

 

The link above has transcripts from Air Ministry Meeting Minutes of Problems with Aircraft Production regarding the modification of Typhoons with Tempest tailplanes and 4 blade prop. Of interest is the following quote:

 

Quote

3. The only important difference in performance between the Typhoon with the four bladed propeller and the Tempest tail plane, and the old type with the three bladed propeller is that the four bladed propeller had improved take-off by reduction of some 150-200ft.

 

Could the 3 and 4 blade propeller be made a modification?

[Heliopause]

[41Sqn_Skipper]

55 minutes ago, Heliopause said:

...

 

Can you add the reference source (name of book, author)?

[Heliopause]

Bader; the man and his men by Michael G. Burns.

[LukeFF]

@=FB=VikS, this may not be much, but there are some interesting entries from the 183 Squadron Operations Record book for March 1945:

 

5.3.45 Weather still duff for Ops, but good enough for several aircraft to be ferried from 146 Wing, where 257 Squadron is disbanding. It has been decided that 183 again return to their original weapon, the bomb, but this time to two 1,000 pounders! For that reason, four-bladers are replacing the older kites.

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by LukeFF

[Talon_]

 

Of interest ? 

[Bremspropeller]

It seems like three-bladers were used as Rocket-Phoons to the very end.

 

There's a picture in "2nd TAF Vol 3" on page 524, showing Typhoons of 124 Wing at Lüneburg between 2nd and 6th/7th May 1945.

I'm counting at least eight three-bladed Tiffies!

 

The caption mentions that many aiplanes had been stored and recently been brought to the front.

[sevenless]

 

On 5/30/2020 at 7:53 PM, =FB=VikS said:

It was possible to fit Typhoons with the large (Tempest) tailplane with a three-bladed propeller,

 

Very interesting. Never heard of or saw any Tiffies with Tempest tail. Does anyone has any pics to share?

[Bremspropeller]

12 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Very interesting. Never heard of or saw any Tiffies with Tempest tail. Does anyone has any pics to share?

 

It's no what you (and me, as I used to) think.

It's just the larger horizontal tail, which is longer in span and extends a little further to the front.

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/typhoon-with-tempest-tailplane.48865/

 

And as Viks wrote, MN454 (picture up above in the thread) looks like is has a combination of a Tempest tail and a three-bladed prop.

 

Edit: Enlarged picture of MN454 taken from linked thread confirms this:

Edited November 21, 2020 by Bremspropeller

[sevenless]

24 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

It's no what you (and me, as I used to) think.

 

 

Ah I see. Indeed I thought of a Frankenstein Tiffy plane with Tempest tail.

[sevenless]

Maybe you guys already know, but this channel is really worth watching for the Tiffy Fan.

 

He (they) are rebuilding Typhoon JP843 from the ground up.

 

S1E5 Rebuilding Hawker Typhoon JP843 - Shrinkage - YouTube

[Megalax]

Its not a Tempest tail, but a Tempest tail plane, the British nomenclature for the horizontal stabilizer.

[LukeFF]

Some information on Typhoon ammo loadout expenditures, this one from 182 Squadron. Some of the pages are hard to read, but one can see that by November 1944 their Typhoons were carrying 140 rounds per cannon.

182_Squadron_Ammo_Expenditure_Reports.zip

 

Also, reports on 183 Squadron:

183 Squadron Ammo Expenditure Reports.rar

[LukeFF]

Some information on the long range performance of the Typhoon when fitted with drop tanks, from 609 Squadron's records:

 

[HawkerMkIII_]

Hello guys, I hope this is useful, so you can tell the difference between the later variants tailplane and the earlier ones:

 

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by -332FG-Razor_

[LukeFF]

Some images of Typhoon IBs fitted with double-stacked rockets. In this case, it is MN178 'PR-V', of No. 609 Squadron RAF at B77/Gilze-Rijen, Netherlands:

 

[Duggy]

On 5/19/2020 at 2:51 PM, =FB=VikS said:

Hi All!

 

Starting to grab any kind of information about its performance and anything related to it.

 

Is there any reports about 3-x vs 4-x bladed airplanes?

 

Anything about engines used? Some sourses state that Sabre IIb was installed sometimes?

 

Anything about +11lb boost?

LINK --- scroll to bottom of page for 3-x vs 4-x bladed airplanes?  http://axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?id=5494

[Jade_Monkey]

It would be really cool if the 3 bladed propeller variant had those heavy vibrations modeled in the game. Just one of those small details, obviously it's a "nice to have" feature.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Jade_Monkey

[=FB=VikS]

12 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

It would be really cool if the 3 bladed propeller variant had those heavy vibrations modeled in the game. Just one of those small details, obviously it's a "nice to have" feature.

 

AFAIR - these vibrations where related to early style stabilizers.