Migoto Is a Cheat. Devs please Ban this!

[Barnacles]

Just now, Talon_ said:

 

Same but lots of my VR buddies need it to have a chance of IDing - one in particular who suffered a botched LASIK operation.

IMO anyone who voluntarily uses VR is clearly not all about getting a spotting advantage over other players.  

Mod or no Mod

 

[RedKestrel]

56 minutes ago, Requiem said:

If non-VR users could spot aircraft at realistic ranges then I don't think this would even be an issue. It's more indicative of our frustrations with not being able to see targets we really should be able to see.

Honest question, no snark: as a pilot, would you expect to be able to see a WWII fighter sized plane on the ground 50 km away IRL? I don't think I could even if I knew where to look, but i have not tried to do much real life spotting from the air. Maybe 20 km in the air, which on occasion in game I can see even on a small-ish monitor. I assume a trained pilot has a lot more skill at seeing contacts IRL than a layperson.
 

 

27 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Imagine a world where people owned different levels of gear to play flight sims. I'm just glad we're all required by the Devs to fly with Logitech Attack Wingman 2s!

 

I don't think sim-pits in and of themselves really convey much in the way of advantage...at least no more than a good HOTAS, pedals and head tracking already gets you. They're just for the immersion factor (and nerd cred.) Its the underlying hardware that makes the difference. And the difference even between different HOTAS can make a difference in the game.




 

[Vortice]

I use VR, migoto and I put my trim on a slider!

 

There, I said it. Confession is good for the soul apparently.

[RedKestrel]

Just now, Vortice said:

I use VR, migoto and I put my trim on a slider!

 

There, I said it. Confession is good for the soul apparently.

1000 Our Fathers and 1000 Hail Marys and you're good to go. Go forth, and sin just a little bit more. 

[Barnacles]

46 minutes ago, E69_Chipi said:

 

 

20KM??? believe me, to be able to spot an airplane this size at 20km (around 11NM) is very, very difficult. Sometimes under ideal conditions (clear day, looking against a very uniform white cloud layer, etc) it is possible. But to spot an airplane against the ground at 11NM is almost a miracle.

 

 

I've seen a Cessna (You could tell that it was a high wing monoplane light aircraft anyway) taking off from an AF whilst at 40kft in an airliner. It stood out like a dog's dick. Probably the AF was a linear distance of 7-8 nm, so 11nm would hardly be a miracle.

[CIA_Yankee_]

11 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

IMO anyone who voluntarily uses VR is clearly not all about getting a spotting advantage over other players.  

Mod or no Mod

 

 

Right, but without the mod it is a massive disadvantage. The mod makes it far more tolerable, and viable to play competitively only in VR.

 

Without it, VR becomes a major handicap.

[Barnacles]

1 hour ago, E69_Chipi said:

 

 

It is my understanding that right now it can be used on servers that do not allow modd, right?

You are correct.

Edited April 30, 2020 by 71st_AH_Barnacles

[40plus]

17 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

PS I use VR and don't even use this mod.

 

 

Same here but I, personally, think multiplayer is the least important aspect of this, or any, sim so don't give a hoot about "cheats" or "exploits". For others though, this is a huge deal.

Edited April 30, 2020 by pfrances

[Barnacles]

1 minute ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

 

Right, but without the mod it is a massive disadvantage. The mod makes it far more tolerable, and viable to play competitively only in VR.

 

Without it, VR becomes a major handicap.

What I've found, when I tried the mod out in VR, it was useful for IDing contacts once spotted, more than anything.

Edited April 30, 2020 by 71st_AH_Barnacles

[216th_Jordan]

It is a problem. For example Tankers got better visibility now than can be found in current RL tanks. With 5 or 10 times zoom spotting enemy tanks in camouflaged positions multiple kilometers away is not a problem anymore. I do think that a moderate zoom is fine even for 2D, but 5 or 10 times is just too much (at least for 2D).

Edited April 30, 2020 by 216th_Jordan

[Jaws2002]

I understand the VR users frustration, but this tool can be used as an exploit. People who want an unfair advantage always existed in online gaming, specially in competitions and online wars. 

Maybe the Game needs to be tweaked, so VR users have access to the same level of zoom  2D screen users do and then this tool can be banned. 

  But there's another side of the story. the view distance was increased, in part, so bomber pilots can actually lineup on a target from high altitude. It's nothing more frustrating than climbing to altitude, with a heavy bomber, only to miss the drop because the target was not visible from the bomb sight.

 

 

[Guest deleted@134347]

7 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

I understand the VR users frustration, but this tool can be used as an exploit. People who want an unfair advantage always existed in online gaming, specially in competitions and online wars. 

Maybe the Game needs to be tweaked, so VR users have access to the same level of zoom  2D screen users do and then this tool can be banned. 

  But there's another side of the story. the view distance was increased, in part, so bomber pilots can actually lineup on a target from high altitude. It's nothing more frustrating than climbing to altitude, with a heavy bomber, only to miss the drop because the target was not visible from the bomb sight.

 

 

 

what are you exploiting with this tool?  Let's establish the parameter of the actual "exploit" going on here?

 

- Are you able to transport yourself instantly 50km out?  No.

- Are you able to see the aircraft behind clouds/mountains/trees?  No.

- Are you able to become invisible?  No.

- Are you invincible?  No

 

Where's the f-ing exploit? pardon my Russian.

 

 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

Can we ban 1080p 55 inch monitors too?  I have one and depending on the weather and time of day, I can see contacts 40+km too.  

 

If I could only see all the contacts once they got into my 10km "bubble", I'd be an uber pilot!  ?

[Birdman]

7 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

what are you exploiting with this tool?  Let's establish the parameter of the actual "exploit" going on here?

 

- Are you able to transport yourself instantly 50km out?  No.

- Are you able to see the aircraft behind clouds/mountains/trees?  No.

- Are you able to become invisible?  No.

- Are you invincible?  No

 

Where's the f-ing exploit? pardon my Russian.

 

 

In my experience ppl have been guiding  intercepts on ground attackers.

 

The thing is like with everything you have a minority that found a way to get an advantage off of something they're not the primary target of.

[E69_geramos109]

6 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

what are you exploiting with this tool?  Let's establish the parameter of the actual "exploit" going on here?

 

- Are you able to transport yourself instantly 50km out?  No.

- Are you able to see the aircraft behind clouds/mountains/trees?  No.

- Are you able to become invisible?  No.

- Are you invincible?  No

 

Where's the f-ing exploit? pardon my Russian.

Are you able to make the prop invisible? Yes

Are you able to see people from 50 km and to see wich plane it is? Yes

Are you able to make blured the ground texture to see more definded the plane? Yes

 

Where are you not able to see the exploit?

 

40 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

Now, set your pretty monitor to 1600x1400 resolution and try to use the in-game zoom AND 3dmigoto.

 

I dare you. I double dare you @E69_geramos109

Mi monitor is just 1080P

[Guest deleted@134347]

Just now, Birdman said:

In my experience ppl have been guiding  intercepts on ground attackers.

 

The thing is like with everything you have a minority that found a way to get an advantage off of something they're not the primary target of.

 

Advantage? Yes. People always look for the advantage. Those who know about certain advantages use them.

 

Exploit?  Hell no.

[E69_geramos109]

Just now, Count_de_Money said:

 

Advantage? Yes. People always look for the advantage. Those who know about certain advantages use them.

 

Exploit?  Hell no.

Ok then I want a cheat to quit clouds, and to change my guns to Mk108s everywhere and I want to modify the plane performance because I am so noob on the game that i need that to shot down anyone so I can turn like an I16 and run like a 262

 

Advantage? Yes Exploit? No

[Guest deleted@134347]

1 minute ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Are you able to make the prop invisible? Yes

Are you able to see people from 50 km and to see wich plane it is? Yes

Are you able to make blured the ground texture to see more definded the plane? Yes

Are you able to make the prop invisible? Yes  SO?

Are you able to see people from 50 km and to see wich plane it is?  NO.   You can't ID shit from 50KM in VR.

Are you able to make blured the ground texture to see more definded the plane?  NO    Where the f did you get this crap from?

 

Again, set your monitor to 1600x1400, use a maximum on 1.5 ZOOM and use it to fly IL2 and we'll see how long you'll enjoy the game play. I double dare you.

[Birdman]

1 minute ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

Advantage? Yes. People always look for the advantage. Those who know about certain advantages use them.

 

Exploit?  Hell no.

 

 

2D players using a VR tool to improve spotting is an exploit in my book.

 

 

 

[JG13_opcode]

How do I report posts for trolling?

[Guest deleted@134347]

2 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Ok then I want a cheat to quit clouds, and to change my guns to Mk108s everywhere and I want to modify the plane performance because I am so noob on the game that i need that to shot down anyone so I can turn like an I16 and run like a 262

 

Advantage? Yes Exploit? No

 

what are you whining about? Use the damn tool on your monitor - nobody in VR community will care. The only person who cares for some odd reason is you.

 

And to add to your 'cheat' bullshit:

- Look up re-shade tools for 2D and their capabilities. You know what you can do with all of them? Much much worse then 3dmigoto even allows.

 

[Beazil]

The amount of whining on these forums is getting to be a bit much.  You guys bitch about the damage model, you bitch about the other side, you bitch about ballistics, and wing damage, and how many struts are represented in a particular model, and now you are bitching about a mod that allow VR some parity with monitor users.  Jesus.  Just can't see past the noses on your faces I guess.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

Here are two screenshots which depict the 2D zoom issue.  Click on the image for full screen image.   Resolution of the monitor is 2560X1440.  Highest graphic settings enabled.

 

In the first picture there are 2 flights of 4 aircraft at about 8km.  They are located just to the left of the partial circle of the reticle.

Normal 2D Full Zoom:

 

 

This is the exact same screen, only additionally zooming in with high zoom from 3Dmigoto mod.

Normal 2D Full Zoom and High Zoom 3Dmigoto:

 

 

[E69_geramos109]

5 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

Are you able to make the prop invisible? Yes  SO?

 

Are you able to make the prop invisible? Yes  SO? Do you want to fly arcade?? You can go war thunder

Are you able to see people from 50 km and to see wich plane it is?  NO.   You can't ID shit from 50KM in VR. Talk for yourself With one of the last Vr models you can

Are you able to make blured the ground texture to see more definded the plane?  NO    Where the f did you get this crap from? Did you even see the video?

 

Again, set your monitor to 1600x1400, use a maximum on 1.5 ZOOM and use it to fly IL2 and we'll see how long you'll enjoy the game play. I double dare you.

Again my monitor is not suporting this resolution

[Stoopy]

I think you'd have to see how this actually works out in VR to understand it's extremely difficult if nigh impossible as a "exploitable" feature. At least in my experience.  The zoom field ends up being so small you see only a teensy tiny area that is shaking all over the place.  Impossible to use for more than a second or two (for me) and results in a complete loss of SA.  

 

It's like driving a car while looking through a telescope.  You might be able to read license plates of cars you've already spotted, but good luck getting to your destination in one piece because of the Mack truck approaching from the side or behind...

[E69_Chipi]

I for one didn't whine. I'm just saying server admins should be able to control this, because it is obvious that some players are misusing it.

 

Well, maybe it's not so obvious for people who speak f-Russian...

Edited April 30, 2020 by E69_Chipi

[III/JG52_Supongo]

This mod or cheat or whatever, would not make sense if the visibility in Il2 was properly resolved.

Geramos is not guilty for reporting this.

The messenger must not be killed. You have to listen to his message.

 

Sorry for mi bad english.

[Beazil]

As long as there is a perception there is an advantage, some will complain.  There will always be some fool who thinks they know but have no direct first hand experience.  If you did you would not be speaking out of your collective asses about something you have no first hand experience with.  If you have VR and a monitor to compare you would not be making these ridiculous statements.  Because no VR user is in here talking about the advantages of VR.  Just non VR users complaining when they just don't know.

Don't let that stop you though.

[69th_Bazzer]

When you come calling something a cheat, and saying it gives VR users an unfair advantage while using only 2D evidence to support the claim, you're very much picking a fight and not merely being a messenger.

[RedKestrel]

5 minutes ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

I think you'd have to see how this actually works out in VR to understand it's extremely difficult if nigh impossible as a "exploitable" feature. At least in my experience.  The zoom field ends up being so small you see only a teensy tiny area that is shaking all over the place.  Impossible to use for more than a second or two (for me) and results in a complete loss of SA.  

 

It's like driving a car while looking through a telescope.  You might be able to read license plates of cars you've already spotted, but good luck getting to your destination in one piece because of the Mack truck approaching from the side or behind...

The exploit, if one can call it that, seems to be a pretty narrow use case - namely, calling out when enemy aircraft are taking off from their base. With this info and a general heading it's pretty easy to get in a position for intercept, given the limited number of ground targets available online. Its even easier if you play the odds of players going to the nearest target, or even the nearest couple targets. 

But the same can be achieved by patrolling certain patches of airspace between enemy airfields and their targets and keeping an eye out. Hang out in that area and you'll easily find enemy fighter/bombers and attackers on climb out, and you can kill them all day. 
 

[DD_Crash]

As a VR user I would like to have the same opportunity to see things as well as those using 4K 36" monitors, and as Mr SharpeXB keeps saying VR isnt as good as a monitor. The real issue here is monitor users using the mod to enhance their already better vision.

[DD_Arthur]

4 minutes ago, III/JG52_Supongo said:

 

The messenger must not be killed. You have to listen to his message.

 

Geramos message is just one big constant whine.  Always.

[Stoopy]

1 minute ago, RedKestrel said:

The exploit, if one can call it that, seems to be a pretty narrow use case - namely, calling out when enemy aircraft are taking off from their base. With this info and a general heading it's pretty easy to get in a position for intercept, given the limited number of ground targets available online. Its even easier if you play the odds of players going to the nearest target, or even the nearest couple targets. 

But the same can be achieved by patrolling certain patches of airspace between enemy airfields and their targets and keeping an eye out. Hang out in that area and you'll easily find enemy fighter/bombers and attackers on climb out, and you can kill them all day. 
 

 

Concur.   Teamwork...  perish the thought!

[SCG_Wulfe]

This is why I have been saying for a while that the Devs needed to add a higher VR zoom to the game.  At least to the level of screen users as a bare minimum. (Right now the in-game VR zoom doesn't even let you zoom as much as on monitor which adds a handicap on-top of a handicap)

 

What you are not getting from 2d monitor comparisons of zoom is that in VR you have a much lower apparent resolution and IDing is much harder than on a screen. Having flown both VR and monitor, I find that a 5x zoom in VR barely allows you to ID contacts enough to be remotely competitive compared to how you can ID on a screen.

 

10X might be a bit much, but 7-8X would probably be a nice, comparable zoom to level the playing field between monitor and VR players.  Devs need to just add this to the base game and block it for non-VR users. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[Stoopy]

16 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Again, set your monitor to 1600x1400, use a maximum on 1.5 ZOOM and use it to fly IL2 and we'll see how long you'll enjoy the game play. I double dare you.

Again my monitor is not suporting this resolution

 

It does now if you have an NVidia video card and enable DSR in the NVidia control panel.

 

[HansBlitz]

People complain. Some it is a hobby all in itself - general statement not pointed at anyone in particular.

 

I use a Rift CV1. I don't use that mod and haven't seen any need to for me. Yes, I've occasionally miss ID'ed but don't have much issue spotting - some I've flown with say I spot more sooner than they do and they are using a big monitor. 

 

Is human nature it seems for everyone to want everyone else to do what each believes is best. Remember is a game. It is not perfect but inspite of any of that, I find it quite enjoyable. Are there things I think could be better sure and some of that will get better and some wont.

 

Full 2x VRz zoom would be nice but if not then oh well

Edited April 30, 2020 by HansBlitz
Added a bit more

[Beazil]

12 minutes ago, DD_Crash said:

As a VR user I would like to have the same opportunity to see things as well as those using 4K 36" monitors, and as Mr SharpeXB keeps saying VR isnt as good as a monitor. The real issue here is monitor users using the mod to enhance their already better vision.

And I would say if you think a larger monitor would be an advantage then by all means, (I would help you carry it if I was there)hook up a TV if you ( or anyone) is so inclined, and compare.  Then you can make the decision as to which works best for you.  Then one could plan future hardware updates with their own preference in mind.  The key is immersion for all of us.  How one obtains that is all due to budget and preferences.  Monitor or VR in the end is a user preference assuming all other factors are equal.  S!

Edit:. Sometimes I wish we would spend more time celebrating what we have been given in exchange for our money, and less time griefing the developers over our "feelings".

Edited April 30, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[JG700_Benek]

For me it just show how bad stock game zoom is or how strange it works. In my case best dot is in widest field of view until the plane is lets say further than 2km away. I said it many times if you zoom on smth it should get bigger and with stock game its not always the case - migoto just zooms things visible while in game zoom not enlarge everything plus load more objects (like fkn truck wich only render in biggest zoom if further than 500meters) - they should have look at this and do some fixes.

[Guest deleted@134347]

11 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Again, set your monitor to 1600x1400, use a maximum on 1.5 ZOOM and use it to fly IL2 and we'll see how long you'll enjoy the game play. I double dare you.

Again my monitor is not suporting this resolution

 

1) So you have no frame of reference of how it is used in VR.

2) you can't even replicate on the monitor what we have in VR to actually understand the predicament the VR players are in

3) You've used this tool on the monitor and immediately decided that it's a "cheat" .. on the monitor..

4) The tool was created specifically for VR. But you don't give 2 shits about it.. because it's a "cheat" .. on the monitor.

 

Do you see the break down of your logic here?

 

By the same rationale I should start just as stupid topic as yours:   "TrackIR is a a cheat! Players can do snap-to-6 and fly backwards evading the pursuer's shots! We can't do that in VR!"... ?

 

You simply don't care about VR users and have no desire to learn about the environment and the platform. Right back at ya, I really don't care what you think.

 

 

 

 

[DD_Crash]

I havnt felt the need to go back to a flatscreen. Only repeating what SharpeXB keeps sayin (a lot)