Migoto Is a Cheat. Devs please Ban this!

[JG1_Wittmann]

You have goggles I assume,   I will shortly.   Post some screens  max med low migoto,     then do the same for in game zoom,  on a monitor  with known target ranges,  like tanks  not moving on a map,    post them  if you would.   What I see, is that migoto  make alot of the vis problems   shared  by many,  vr and 2d alike  get better.  I like migoto  and think it should stay in game, for all     

 

In game zoom, on a monitor   with  high migoto, and  the full in game  2d zoom applied,    is 3 times  larger,   than the full in game zoom itself

Edited May 4, 2020 by JG1_Wittmann

[[DBS]Browning]

Screenshots of VR don't tell you much about what you actually see.

It's like taking a photo of a monitor you don't know the size of. You take a close photo and everything looks massive, you take a far photo and everything looks tiny. The photo tells you nothing about the actual experience of viewing the monitor without some additional reference.

[CountZero]

 

for reshade they said you can use it its not cheat, they can do same for this and end it quickly

[JG1_Wittmann]

6 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

Screenshots of VR don't tell you much about what you actually see.

It's like taking a photo of a monitor you don't know the size of. You take a close photo and everything looks massive, you take a far photo and everything looks tiny. The photo tells you nothing about the actual experience of viewing the monitor without some additional reference.

 

I would like to say  that this migoto,   applied to both  VR and the 2d users  is the best graphical   thing to happen to the game  in the apsect of visibility problems  many have referenced. 

This last version allowing 2d users to use "some" of the features is a good move.   Removing it  from 2d users   prob not so good after it has been tried out.   If  it is not possible to post a screen  and clearly point out, or quantify absolutely,  the difference or similarity between VR and 2d,  to the 2d  players,  then how can it be shown at all that 2d players should not have the same access ?    I think that it would  be next to impossible to convince 2d users that they don't need this migoto vis, as it only brought parity for the VR users,  when  if it is applied in the game :

 

1)   the migooto zoom  is much more,  3 time more than max in game zoom if compounded with max migoto zoom.

2) target spotting, for some,  is now  less difficult against backgrounds,  that without this new visual enhancement,  were made harder

3) Identifying AC is now  better,   and since I do not yet have goggles, I would say it possibly  " Might "   bring 2d users up to the same level as VR users.     I fly  with VR users at times and their ability to identify aircraft  at much farther ranges than I can  is not any kind of misinformation,  or opinion,     it is fact.   I believe that many  2d players, that fly at times with VR players can attest to this same fact.   This  mod is now necessary so that 2D  users have some sort of parity with the VR players.  The loss of it  just means that  the VR players get to use a mod for visibility  not available to all

[Voyager]

Looks like the higher zoom is causing a glitch in the render engine. At least according to the video you posted, the planes were obvious because they were blinking in and out of existence, which is much less obvious than when they're blended into a smaller number of pixels.

 

The terrain shifting is likely an artifact of the LOD adjustment the game does. I've noticed it in plane VR; regions will sometimes pop into a higher LoD when I zoom on them, though at this pint, I'm generally running at Ultra levels of detail when I'm flying to avoid that.

 

@E69_geramos109 Out of curiosity, have you done this test at maximum settings, i.e. Ultra detail/Maximum View range, or only at medium/high levels of detail. I'm curious is the terrain popping still happens on zoom. I'm wondering if this might help resolve some of the "vanishing airplanes" bugs people keep seeing in VR.

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

If the in game zoom,  compounded  on top of the migoto zoom  is   considered  unfair,  then the devs should remove the in game  zoom in zoom out   and simply  have everyone  use the migoto  zooms.     

No that would be ridiculous.

3 hours ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

So you think it's fair that the in-game zoom for you on a monitor is 5x.... and the in-game zoom for the less clear VR headset is 1.5x....

On a smaller monitor, the full zoom only gives you a slightly larger than life sized view. The view in VR is already life sized. You’re probably seeing the same size in VR as a small monitor user would see.

2 hours ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

.  I have  a 32"  4K  monitor,  that works great for  everything.  The problem is in this game due to   "  spotty "   pun intended,   graphics  and ability to spot objects,  I am forced to run it in 1080 instead of it's native  res.  So lower is better.

I have a 32” 4K monitor and what I see in this and other flight sims look nice. Razor sharp and clear, I could ID planes as small dots since I can make out their features even when they’re just a few pixels. No way I would reduce the resolution. Want even sharper, try running the in-game Sharpen at 4K. Lower is definitely not better. 

[Beazil]

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

1.  No that would be ridiculous.

 

2.  On a smaller monitor, the full zoom only gives you a slightly larger than life sized view. The view in VR is already life sized.

 

3.  You’re probably seeing the same size in VR as a small monitor user would see.

1.  Really?  Think about it for a second.  He's suggesting "sameness".  Not so unreasonable and pretty much consistent with what everyone is saying.  Including you.  Even if some of us disagree on the best means to accomplish that goal.

 

2.  Not true.  Unless you mean it's the same for each without any zoom whatsoever, and then yes; that is true.  Aspect is different, but so is a 14 inch monitor vs a 22.  The larger the display we get the closet the aspect is to natural life.  We aren't there yet.  On any display type.   

If what you're suggesting WAS true no VR player would need any form of zoom.  That simply isn't the case any more that it is true of monitor users on any type or size of display.

 

3.  Pretty much.  But see above for clarification on my point.

Edited May 4, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[JG1_Wittmann]

Well SharpeXB ,   what  is working for your 32" 4k  monitor  does not as well on mine.  Seeing a dot  is only  a part of the equation.  I see those,  but when you see a dot.    I also  think  that possibly  there  is not a majority consensus  on  this issue.  I disagree with your view but will not say it is wrong for you or others that agree.  WHat I am trying, now after trying migoto is  making my gfx  mode  be  better, that would be great for me to be able to play  this game  at 4K  and be able to spot an ID  in a manner on par w/ VR or others

 

Why would it be ridiculous to only have  migoto zoom for VR  and  2d users ?   whatever the case on that may be, then both groups should have the same capabilities,  migoto  plus the adjustable in game zoom.    I had put  that previously about only having 3 lvls of migoto zoom because I misunderstood, and though that VR users  only had those 3, and no ingame adder.

 

 

[Tycoon]

You know if any one of these very confident vr users could post something as simple as a screenshot with migoto zoom stacked with in game vr zoom focused on the gunsight we could end this argument. 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Tycoon

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, JG51_Beazil said:

1.  Really?  Think about it for a second.  He's suggesting "sameness".  Not so unreasonable and pretty much consistent with what everyone is saying.  Including you.  Even if some of us disagree on the best means to accomplish that goal.

The in game zoom feature works perfectly so there’s no reason to suggest replacing it with a mod. If the Devs want to make it bigger for VR that’s fine. If people want to use a mod I suppose that’s fine too because bottom line there’s no way to regulate it anyways. 
I like what this Mod does for me. Now I have an excuse, whenever I get shot down I’ll just blame it on a mod user! ?

[Tycoon]

3 hours ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

You have goggles I assume,   I will shortly.   Post some screens  max med low migoto,     then do the same for in game zoom,  on a monitor  with known target ranges,  like tanks  not moving on a map,    post them  if you would.   What I see, is that migoto  make alot of the vis problems   shared  by many,  vr and 2d alike  get better.  I like migoto  and think it should stay in game, for all     

 

In game zoom, on a monitor   with  high migoto, and  the full in game  2d zoom applied,    is 3 times  larger,   than the full in game zoom itself

 

These were posted earlier, 10x migoto vs in game 2d max.

2 hours ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

 

I would like to say  that this migoto,   applied to both  VR and the 2d users  is the best graphical   thing to happen to the game  in the apsect of visibility problems  many have referenced. 

 

I actually agree migoto somewhat fixes the utterly broken spotting and id for 2d players as well. I wont be using it for sure online in 2d because it isn't fair but if it was added officially you bet i'd use it.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Tycoon

[Beazil]

Point of interest- no VR zoom (in game) was applied in either mode in that video.  I hadn't considered it when making the video, and I haven't checked much beyond this other than to verify what's in the readme - it can be layered.  My experience suggests it working properly depends on user setup.  I never tried VR zoom in non VR mode - I simply assumed it would not work.

[E69_geramos109]

2 hours ago, Voyager said:

Looks like the higher zoom is causing a glitch in the render engine. At least according to the video you posted, the planes were obvious because they were blinking in and out of existence, which is much less obvious than when they're blended into a smaller number of pixels.

 

The terrain shifting is likely an artifact of the LOD adjustment the game does. I've noticed it in plane VR; regions will sometimes pop into a higher LoD when I zoom on them, though at this pint, I'm generally running at Ultra levels of detail when I'm flying to avoid that.

 

@E69_geramos109 Out of curiosity, have you done this test at maximum settings, i.e. Ultra detail/Maximum View range, or only at medium/high levels of detail. I'm curious is the terrain popping still happens on zoom. I'm wondering if this might help resolve some of the "vanishing airplanes" bugs people keep seeing in VR.

I have Ultra settings 

[JG1_Wittmann]

39 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

You know if any one of these very confident vr users could post something as simple as a screenshot with migoto zoom stacked with in game vr zoom focused on the gunsight we could end this argument. 

I can't post what VR looks like but can post comparisons between migoto high and full in game zoom.  I would say, keep in mind that the VR  has te zoom adder in game available as well from what people have posted.  Pic 44  is in game, open commanders hatch, high migoto zoom.  Pic 45 is same player condition, full in game zoom applied.   Now the migoto zoom is double what the in game zoom max is.

[Tycoon]

51 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

  I never tried VR zoom in non VR mode - I simply assumed it would not work.

Not sure I understand what you're saying, I thought vr zoom only works in vr mode or am I wrong?

27 minutes ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

I can't post what VR looks like but can post comparisons between migoto high and full in game zoom.  I would say, keep in mind that the VR  has te zoom adder in game available as well from what people have posted.  Pic 44  is in game, open commanders hatch, high migoto zoom.  Pic 45 is same player condition, full in game zoom applied.   Now the migoto zoom is double what the in game zoom max is.

 

Have you looked at any of the previous posts from the last 3 or 4 pages?People have posted multiple videos and pics that show all of this.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Tycoon

[Beazil]

1 hour ago, Tycoon said:

Not sure I understand what you're saying, I thought vr zoom only works in vr mode or am I wrong?

I made that assumption as well.  Which is one of the reasons it was not included in the original vids I posted.  I simply have never tested it until I deliberately set it up to work together in VR mode. The fact that I use the same button(s) to zoom in game in VR and non VR means I never mapped them together to test whether it would work.  And of course it did.  It said it would in the readme for 3dmigoto.  I was just didn't notice that until I started mucking around and trying it.  I just never tried it in non VR mode because I assumed it would not work together.  Easy enough to check, but another reason why I am A-OK with this being looked at.  Not that what I think matters a whole lot but because the concern has been heard and will be addressed for everyone.

[Voyager]

3 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

I have Ultra settings 

Do you have render distance set to maximum? I'm asking because the aircraft you are pointing out as "clear" are flickering in the replay.

[KoN_]

On 5/1/2020 at 6:43 PM, SharpeXB said:

DCS allows an excessive zoom for VR? I know it has a VR zoom but I don’t know how much. 

Now in modern air combat that’s definitely a cheat because the weapons can reach out that far. In WWII you might be able to argue it’s not much of an advantage seeing enemy aircraft that far away (it certainly isn’t a disadvantage) A while back DCS tried those sprites and it was disastrous for that reason. 

DCS is fixed now , You can see contacts up to 20 miles . 

This Game needs a big fix . Its gone backwards in spotting to be honest who`s testing this game Before the release .

So many people are complaining on this issue .  some not . Most are . 

I want to try this mod . And ill give honest answer but by the looks of it its defiantly an advantage .   

With this mod all you need to do is sit two grid squares away from airfield and tallyho . !!! tacking is complete . ?

32" 1440p monitor . ``lost sight , check six , lost sight ,  crazy . 

On 5/1/2020 at 11:42 PM, Tycoon said:

Here's a quick test I did, like Beazil's video instant zoom changes are the mod while smooth changes are ingame zoom. Without alternate plane visibility it seems to  be an enhanced zoom, while with alternate turned on there seems to be something off about plane size, using the mod the plane model stays large, while using in game zoom the plane size shrinks, you can see it in real time here, 1:08 mark.

Here's a more practical example of use on multiplayer.

You should try without icons see if you can keep track that target at low level ....  . sorry late to the party .

Wow..!! so many times ive seen flak yet no bandit . 

We have ongoing campaigns that are full real . This is advantage to a monitor setup .  

VR however has very low graphic settings  not unless with NASA computer and 2k-4k VR headset .

I can see the argument from VR players i tried VR but went back to monitor because of the poor spotting for me and low graphic settings to get 60fps  . 

Good luck . 

Devs need to address the visibility and have a anti cheat in place its 2020 .  

Edited May 5, 2020 by ACG_KoN

[HunDread]

13 hours ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

You have goggles I assume,   I will shortly.   Post some screens  max med low migoto,     then do the same for in game zoom,  on a monitor  with known target ranges,  like tanks  not moving on a map,    post them  if you would.   What I see, is that migoto  make alot of the vis problems   shared  by many,  vr and 2d alike  get better.  I like migoto  and think it should stay in game, for all     

 

In game zoom, on a monitor   with  high migoto, and  the full in game  2d zoom applied,    is 3 times  larger,   than the full in game zoom itself

 

When you have the VR set, can you try to spend some time with your regular gameplay scenarios without installing the mod first and then report your experience back here?

 

I'm pretty sure you'll see that VR is great but is a handicap compared to your previous 2d experience and something is needed to get your competitiveness back to the level it was before.

 

Now that something is currently called 3DMigoto.

[CountZero]

1 minute ago, HunDread said:

 

When you have the VR set, can you try to spend some time with your regular gameplay scenarios without installing the mod first and then report your experience back here?

 

I'm pretty sure you'll see that VR is great but is a handicap compared to your previous 2d experience and something is needed to get your competitiveness back to the level it was before.

 

Now that something is currently called 3DMigoto.

If there is problem with how bad devs implemented VR zoom then they should fix it so it cant be abused and used as cheat when you have mod that can be used with no way to prevent its abuse. game has for reason mods on and mods off option its not free for all, there is reason why most players dont play on servers that are mods on even though there is some mods that fix game problems, its cheat free zone. And this is clear cheat if used on mods off servers and cant be controled. SO devs should say if mod is ok or not ok to be used in mods off game, so rest of us can cheat also.

[HunDread]

13 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

On a smaller monitor, the full zoom only gives you a slightly larger than life sized view. The view in VR is already life sized. You’re probably seeing the same size in VR as a small monitor user would see.

 

Can you stop spreading this nonsense argument please? Have you seen a VR headset? It has two tiny little screens, they are only strapped to your face and magnified.

 

Now try this: watch your regular monitor from 10-15 centimeters (or the closest you can still focus), you'll have a huge FOV. Will you be able to ID better? NO! Just try it.

 

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

If there is problem with how bad devs implemented VR zoom then they should fix it so it cant be abused and used as cheat when you have mod that can be used with no way to prevent its abuse. game has for reason mods on and mods off option its not free for all, there is reason why most players dont play on servers that are mods on even though there is some mods that fix game problems, its cheat free zone. And this is clear cheat if used on mods off servers and cant be controled. SO devs should say if mod is ok or not ok to be used in mods off game, so rest of us can cheat also.

 

That works for me. Until it's done let me use 3DMigoto in peace OK? It's so essential for VR that I happily accept the cost that 2D players using the mod on top of the already superior 2d zoom might shoot me down. 

 

Or making it available for VR only (until the final solution is developed) would work best but knowing the mentality on these forums I'm sure that would also result in similar complaints we have now here. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by HunDread

[E69_geramos109]

8 hours ago, Voyager said:

Do you have render distance set to maximum? I'm asking because the aircraft you are pointing out as "clear" are flickering in the replay.

yes

[[110]xJammer]

While this topic has certainly been rehashed to no end, my .02c is that migoto is just past the boundary where I would call it a cheat. Both for 2D screens and VR. If people choose to handicap themselves by flying in VR in MP, it is their choice. No need to provide them with a special crutch just to stay competitive. 

 

 

I think overall there is a bigger issue at hand - we have a piece of software that clear-cut enhances the player's capability. That is not prevented by the IL2's anti-cheat protection and bypasses the "no-mod" setting on the servers. If migoto can do it - who is there to say that other people aren't using souped up migoto that would provide not just the zoom, but also ID markers on no-marker server etc.

Edited May 5, 2020 by [110]xJammer

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, HunDread said:

Can you stop spreading this nonsense argument please? Have you seen a VR headset? It has two tiny little screens, they are only strapped to your face and magnified.

 

Now try this: watch your regular monitor from 10-15 centimeters (or the closest you can still focus), you'll have a huge FOV. Will you be able to ID better? NO! Just try it.

I’ve worn a VR headset. What you see is obviously life sized. A small monitor is like a little window looking into a small 3D world. Yes it’s hard to compare but you realize the average monitor size is probably not that large. Zoomed-In is not actually as egregious as you make it out to be. 
Moving your head closer to the screen doesn’t “zoom in” since you’re just seeing larger pixels and people really don’t sit that close. 
 

What this discussion is making apparent is just how poor VR headset resolution really is. If it needs a 10x magnification, it’s just not ready for flight sims yet. Sure it will improve and perhaps that’s why the Devs limited the VR zoom, anticipating that it will improve and not wanting to overdo it and then have to bring it back down. 

[HunDread]

8 minutes ago, [110]xJammer said:

While this topic has certainly been rehashed to no end, my .02c is that migoto is just past the boundary where I would call it a cheat. Both for 2D screens and VR. If people choose to handicap themselves by flying in VR in MP, it is their choice. No need to provide them with a special crutch just to stay competitive. 

 

I would like to see your .02c if the use of TrackIR restricted the 2d zoom to 1.5 x for some reason. This section of the forum would blow up.   

[[110]xJammer]

Just now, HunDread said:

 

I would like to see your .02c if the use of TrackIR restricted the 2d zoom to 1.5 x for some reason. This section of the forum would blow up.   

 

 

As long as every other zoom was also restricted to 1.5x I see no problem? As I said in my second paragraph, the fact that we have a 3rd party software that permits player enhancement is an alarming issue, not so much the VR-special zoom (that also can be used in 2D). At the end of the day you can just use a 3-screen setup and the very edges of the screen would have a crazy "zoom" without any 3rd party mods.

[HunDread]

1 minute ago, [110]xJammer said:

 

As long as every other zoom was also restricted to 1.5x I see no problem?

 

No, all non-trackir users would still enjoy the 5x zoom. Would you have the same opinion that those who want to enjoy the benefits of trackir should bear the consequences and should not look for ways to be competitive in Multiplayer?

[[110]xJammer]

1 minute ago, HunDread said:

 

No, all non-trackir users would still enjoy the 5x zoom. Would you have the same opinion that those who want to enjoy the benefits of trackir should bear the consequences and should not look for ways to be competitive in Multiplayer?

 

 

You clearly are focusing on the less important issue at hand  If the devs decided to give us the extra-zoom if VR was detected, fine by me.

 

However we have a 3rd party software that does it, and bypasses all of the anti-cheat IL2 has. Would you feel fine if migoto users also installed an "addon" that gave them FFI markers? because it is too difficult to ID. Or maybe edge-of-screen arrows to indicate that they have a 6 - turning your head all the way to the back is much more difficult in VR than it is with trackIR afterall. Or lets just colour all enemy aircraft into fluorescent yellow...

[SharpeXB]

4 minutes ago, HunDread said:

 

No, all non-trackir users would still enjoy the 5x zoom.

I see your analogy but it’s reaching a bit...

 

I can only suppose the reason they set 1.5x for VR was

1. They felt it was fair given the average monitor size

2. VR headsets are going to only increase in resolution and they don’t want to have to scale it back in the future 

3. It would force VR sickness on players. Honestly if I had to 10x zoom at every plane around me constantly I would end up ditching VR. That sounds just horribly awkward. 

[HunDread]

1 minute ago, [110]xJammer said:

 

 

You clearly are focusing on the less important issue at hand  If the devs decided to give us the extra-zoom if VR was detected, fine by me.

 

However we have a 3rd party software that does it, and bypasses all of the anti-cheat IL2 has. Would you feel fine if migoto users also installed an "addon" that gave them FFI markers? because it is too difficult to ID. Or maybe edge-of-screen arrows to indicate that they have a 6 - turning your head all the way to the back is much more difficult in VR than it is with trackIR afterall. Or lets just colour all enemy aircraft into fluorescent yellow...

 

I was focusing on one of your statements I don't agree with.

 

VR doesn't need extra zoom, it needs the same zoom as 2d because currently it is inferior. This is what's compensated by 3dmigoto. I don't agree with showing markers but same zoom capabilities would make that redundant. Snap 6 view should be added to VR in case it is available for trackir (I don't remember whether it was available when I was flying with trackir). Or better if it's available for trackir now it should be removed from that too. It's not realistic. Fluorescent yellow would also be redundant with same zooming capabilities.  

[[110]xJammer]

1 minute ago, HunDread said:

 

I was focusing on one of your statements I don't agree with.

 

VR doesn't need extra zoom, it needs the same zoom as 2d because currently it is inferior. This is what's compensated by 3dmigoto. I don't agree with showing markers but same zoom capabilities would make that redundant. Snap 6 view should be added to VR in case it is available for trackir (I don't remember whether it was available when I was flying with trackir). Or better if it's available for trackir now it should be removed from that too. It's not realistic. Fluorescent yellow would also be redundant with same zooming capabilities.  

 

 

As I previously said, I have no issues if devs decide to implement something similar to migoto - that would be a separate discussion with the community in terms of how much "crutch" to give to the VR users. (And why we don't have colourblind support as well). Currently, however, we have basically a 3rd party "cheat" that people treat as necessity, without any oversight from the developers.

[HunDread]

15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I see your analogy but it’s reaching a bit...

 

I can only suppose the reason they set 1.5x for VR was

1. They felt it was fair given the average monitor size

2. VR headsets are going to only increase in resolution and they don’t want to have to scale it back in the future 

3. It would force VR sickness on players. Honestly if I had to 10x zoom at every plane around me constantly I would end up ditching VR. That sounds just horribly awkward. 

 

You are in contradiction when constantly referring to the size of the screen in VR. You say it's huge and life like which implies you think it's better to view and in the same posts you say VR is inferior if it needs 10x zoom. This latter statement of yours is correct. It is inferior. 

 

Being huge and life-sized does not help, only for immersion. This is why I told you to try and view your monitor close-up. You will see a life-sized picture too but won't help you ID. And I mean this just as an experiment not tryig to say you should play that way. 

7 minutes ago, [110]xJammer said:

As I previously said, I have no issues if devs decide to implement something similar to migoto - that would be a separate discussion with the community in terms of how much "crutch" to give to the VR users. (And why we don't have colourblind support as well). Currently, however, we have basically a 3rd party "cheat" that people treat as necessity, without any oversight from the developers.

 

I agree, except I do not consider myself a cheater for using the mod. I simply wouldn't be able to play without it. I played that way for a long time when I did not have it installed and I was practically blind compared to 2d pilots. I had to go so close to the other plane that I lost all options to shoot. I often had to pass it to be able to see if it's friendly or enemy and only engage with the second pass. Notz ideal at all. Also did quite a lot of friendly fire.

Edited May 5, 2020 by HunDread

[[110]xJammer]

18 minutes ago, HunDread said:

I agree, except I do not consider myself a cheater for using the mod. I simply wouldn't be able to play without it. I played that way for a long time when I did not have it installed and I was practically blind compared to 2d pilots. I had to go so close to the other plane that I lost all options to shoot. I often had to pass it to be able to see if it's friendly or enemy and only engage with the second pass. Notz ideal at all. Also did quite a lot of friendly fire.

 

 

Its a mindset of getting the hardware that works with the game vs. forcing the game to work with their hardware through some nefarious and non-TOS compliant ways.

 

But actually this discussion helped me to solidify my POV on this matter. Yes migoto is a cheat, on par with those invulnerability or speed hacks we have seen in the past. Not from the POV of what it does, but from the POV that it is a 3rd party software that enhances player's performance outside of the game permitted values. 

 

Migoto should be banned ASAP and the injection methods should be reviewed to prevent similar software from using them in the future. Adding a simple "if VR then max_zoom = 2 * normal_zoom" for the devs should be much easier than having to hijack the game to do the same.

Edited May 5, 2020 by [110]xJammer

[HunDread]

1 minute ago, [110]xJammer said:

 

 

Its a mindset of getting the hardware that works with the game vs. forcing the game to work with their hardware through some nefarious and non-TOS compliant ways.

 

Now this one I don't agree with. We just want same zoom as 2d. It's not asking too much. I had VR before IL-2 started to support it and I did not expect to see an inferior zoom. When I saw that I was flying blind for a few months then I tried migoto and thought that OK, this is something that can bring back my sight to the same level as before. Overall VR is still a handicap even together with the migoto mod, but at least it's not pointless to fly now. It's nothing more than that.

[Beazil]

19 minutes ago, HunDread said:

 

Now this one I don't agree with. We just want same zoom as 2d. It's not asking too much. I had VR before IL-2 started to support it and I did not expect to see an inferior zoom. When I saw that I was flying blind for a few months then I tried migoto and thought that OK, this is something that can bring back my sight to the same level as before. Overall VR is still a handicap even together with the migoto mod, but at least it's not pointless to fly now. It's nothing more than that.

This whole thread started off as a rant about cheating.

As long as some of you have it in your heads that VR and non VR are somehow in different camps this will be an issue.  I don't think anyone on either side of this discussion wants the "superior" option for themselves - it's not like one of us hacked this together in some dark corner of the interwebs.   Let's get on the same page please.

Your opponents are not all trying to shaft you. Not directed at Hundred, more of a comment on what I'm seeing here.

Edited May 5, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[Barnacles]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

 

1. They felt it was fair given the average monitor size

2. VR headsets are going to only increase in resolution and they don’t want to have to scale it back in the future 

3. It would force VR sickness on players. Honestly if I had to 10x zoom at every plane around me constantly I would end up ditching VR. That sounds just horribly awkward. 

 

I think you're right in part but it does get confusing when you consider the angular size of a monitor v VR with actual size. If you move your face closer to a monitor, it doesn't make the monitor bigger, or affect the pixel per unit area. It does affect the pixel per unit solid angle. (Which you cannot change in VR), so it's a bit of a misconception and an oversimplification to say that 1.5 zoom is equivalent to 5x zoom in VR, for various reasons.

Eg the US gunsight circle is 107 mils in diameter, (approximately three fingers when held at arm's length) now depending on where I sit this can be at multiple different levels of zoom when using a monitor, in VR it's just 1.0 zoom.

But the other two reasons are well intentioned but right here right now, I really think that 5x zoom in VR is "equivalent"* to 5x monitor zoom, so if that was their thinking, they made a bad call. Initially DCS must have had the same thought process but they've sucked back on that.

* with the usual caveats about my, monitor, my settings, my eyes etc, and yest it's subjective but although I have a VR headset, I flit between VR and head tracking monitor for IL2, so I don't feel like I have to partizanly defend VR users as a 'tribe'.

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by 71st_AH_Barnacles

[Beazil]

* with the usual caveats about my, monitor, my settings, my eyes etc, and yest it's subjective but although I have a VR headset, I flit between VR and head tracking monitor for IL2, so I don't feel like I have to partizanly defend VR users as a 'tribe'

 

Right on Barnacles.  Kind of where I am comming from as well.

 

As an aside, you need this as your avatar.

 

He's Captain Barnacles!

Edited May 5, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[Creep]

1 hour ago, [110]xJammer said:

But actually this discussion helped me to solidify my POV on this matter. Yes migoto is a cheat, on par with those invulnerability or speed hacks we have seen in the past. Not from the POV of what it does, but from the POV that it is a 3rd party software that enhances player's performance outside of the game permitted values. 

 

Have you tried playing IL2 in VR without 3dMigoto? Maybe you should do that before you "solidify" your point of view based on the uninformed views of others in this thread.

[SCG_Wulfe]

Those of you who have never flown in VR commenting on the topic have absolutely no idea what you are talking about until you have experienced it. There are enough users with VR all saying the same thing. Do you believe there does not exist a single fair minded VR user, who would admit that 3dmigoto is a cheat and enhances their ID ability far beyond that of a screen, if that was the case? 

 

Instead, there is a unanimous opinion from everyone who has tried VR, that identification is far more difficult in a VR headset.  From every VR user we hear that this Mod brings them to relative parity with a monitor user.  Still, we are a fair bunch and many have agreed that maybe it should be limited to 7-8x to be an exact parity with a monitor. 

 

Those of you speaking from your rear without having an experience with both display mediums truly don't know what you are talking about. 

 

Frankly, I speak for myself and I know many others... where if this mod was banned, I would cease to fly IL2. Do you really want to whittle away the online player base in a crusade against something you don't understand?

 

In any case,  later this afternoon, I will record a track and photograph a plane at full zoom on a monitor and at full zoom through a VR headset and hopefully shed some light on what we are dealing with. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[[110]xJammer]

Just now, QB.Creep said:

 

Have you tried playing IL2 in VR without 3dMigoto? Maybe you should do that before you "solidify" your point of view based on the uninformed views of others in this thread.

 

 

I have HTC Vive. Its not competitive in MP, but is a great experience in SP. I do not plan to use external software to augment my performance in VR for it to become competitive in MP however.