Migoto Is a Cheat. Devs please Ban this!

[E69_geramos109]

6 hours ago, Alonzo said:

I find it quite funny that people are telling server operators what to do. It's easy to get a server licence and start your own multiplayer server, I encourage anyone who's unhappy with the current set of servers to do so. More choice for players and a bit of competition among server ops is good for the game.

 

Shall we talk about the 180 degree "check six" snap view? I can't do that in VR. It's a cheat when players do that in 2D. It reduces realism and needs to be removed from the game.

 

Disclaimer: I don't actually think snap views should be removed from the game, but it's an equivalent argument.

There is software as well to do that with Vr. For me is not an equivalent argument becuase track ir ca not improve the technology or devs can do nothing to change that. You are allways limited because your monitor is on your front. But with VR devs can give an equivalent zoom to Vr and Vrs can improve the technology for more definition (Already are really good Vrs)

On the other hand you would need a Cinema screen to see what you can see with Migoto X10 zoom

5 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Some information on what will happen:

 

It seems that the zoom mod will not be made to work for monitors after the next patch.

 

Everyone will be forced to upgrade the mod, as the Devs have stated in the devblog that they will switch to deferred rendering. That disables the mod entirely, and any old version of it too.

 

It will only remain for VR users then. 

 

So, both sides won.

 

 

Now you guys can get a tea (Sharpe a pint of oil) and stop the discussion.

If that happens then Will be 2 kind of players Vr that would have and advantage on the Game with ID contacts and monitor users. VR players with one of the latest glasses will be able to install the mod and use it as a cheat as well

[von_Tom]

I still haven’t seen anything that establishes that this gives an advantage to anyone. “I think” doesn’t cut it. 
 

Can anyone point to empirical data establishing that this mod helps folks become killers?  Maybe check the hardware used by the most successful pvp pilots?

 

If there is no such data then it is just hot air. 

 

von Tom

 

Edit:  Personally I think the problem isn’t the mod but the way visibility (especially alternate visibility) is modelled, and that is a work in progress. Example - we sometimes have an internal bunfight and even without zoom could see the other side taking off a long way away. 

Edited May 2, 2020 by von_Tom

[CountZero]

11 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

Very many modifications can be made to the gaming experience without turning mods on. 

For example:

Reshade

Nvidia's shader suite

Force feedback modifications 

Any modifications that use the motion telemetry outputs (i.e. For motion platforms or ingame g-meters. 

PPYjoy and other similar programs that modify inputs sent to the game 

Overlays such as those used in teamspeak and discord 

95% resolution edits and other edits to startup.cfg

Cockpit photos with plane specific info

ATI's suite of graphical changes 

Etc. 

LOL yes you forghot Windows 10, and steam and so on...  they are clearly mods advertised for game.

 

If people think its ok to use mod online on servers that are advertised as mods off then why not just turn all mods on and let people play with any mod ? why is this mod exeption.

Game has clear devision, mods on and mods off, and its controled correctly to avoid problems, so people who wont to play online without cheating play on mods off, and this mod clearly brakes that. but if devs cant or wont fix zoom level for VR and say this is mod that can be used on mods off online then no problem, they can easy stop this talk by saying yes use it how you wont even in mod off game or no dont use it. There is 2 options mod off or on not mod off but some can cheat.

[Dawg35]

Anyone who thinks that VR users have a spotting advantage in IL2 over non VR users must have never tried IL2 in VR.

[Barnacles]

7 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

I still haven’t seen anything that establishes that this gives an advantage to anyone. “I think” doesn’t cut it. 
 

Can anyone point to empirical data establishing that this mod helps folks become killers?  Maybe check the hardware used by the most successful pvp pilots?

 

If there is no such data then it is just hot air. 

 

von Tom

 

Edit:  Personally I think the problem isn’t the mod but the way visibility (especially alternate visibility) is modelled, and that is a work in progress. Example - we sometimes have an internal bunfight and even without zoom could see the other side taking off a long way away. 

Tested this last night:

My wingman and I were both using 1st gen VR headsets. He uses the mod, I do not. We spot stuff at around the same time. Those contacts that we zoom in on, he can consistently ID and I cannot. I will consistently be able to ID stuff around 2km later than he can.

So for me, there is no doubt; he has an advantage over me.

So VR v VR, f**k yeah you get given an advantage. But as to how significant that advantage is the thing that's up for debate. I can objectively say that for me, the advantage that I perceive I would gain from deciding to reinstall this mod is (1) not big enough that it's made me want to reinstall this mod, (2) not such that I lose any sleep that other people might use it. *BUT THAT'S JUST ME.

Clearly the only debate here is whether the advantage of having this is merely a QOL issue for VR simmers, or a game-changing amount of advantage and whether individuals can be trusted to decide whether they are morally justified in wielding this mighty power/insignificant QOL mod, themselves.

 

One last point with MY monitor my eyes and my graphics settings, when using a monitor I ID at pretty much the same range as my wingman when he is in VR and using the mod (Because a contact at 5kmonitor is around 32 pixels on a monitor when at medium zoom and in VR, even if you use the mod the same 5km contact just gets inflated to 32 pixels, approximately. So for me with my sample set of one, VR people using this is a non issue to me.

 

[E69_Chipi]

2 hours ago, von_Tom said:

I still haven’t seen anything that establishes that this gives an advantage to anyone. “I think” doesn’t cut it. 
 

Can anyone point to empirical data establishing that this mod helps folks become killers?  Maybe check the hardware used by the most successful pvp pilots?

 

If there is no such data then it is just hot air. 

 

von Tom

 

Edit:  Personally I think the problem isn’t the mod but the way visibility (especially alternate visibility) is modelled, and that is a work in progress. Example - we sometimes have an internal bunfight and even without zoom could see the other side taking off a long way away. 

I have read this on several posts in this thread...

 

Why do you guys equal advantage to become a killer?

 

In servers like Berloga I can almost understand this point.

 

But in more "mission oriented servers" like TAW (the ones I like the most) you get a hell of a tactical advantage by simply being able to ID bogeys at a further distance that they are able to ID you.

 

For some players it's not all about the number of kills, even when we fly fighters. 

 

I suck at aiming. Tbh I suck at most aspects when it comes to competitive gaming. 

 

But if, on top of that, you put the fact that some players can spot and/or ID me way sooner than I can them..

 

IDing sooner won't help your aiming, but for sure will help you to take better tactical decisions an to have the initiative in combat, which is very important.

 

Well, I think I made my point.

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by E69_Chipi

[von_Tom]

1 hour ago, E69_Chipi said:

 

Why do you guys equal advantage to become a killer?

.

Because that’s the whole premise of the “ban it it’s a cheat” argument. 
 

Killer can mean individual scores, group/squadron scores/overall mission success and so on. 
 

People who fly bombers or Jabos will press home their attack even if they identify an enemy - . they don’t suddenly decide to fly somewhere else instead. 
 

People flying CAP can’t spend the time scouting the sky with zoom because they’ll get shot down. People who see a plane 50km away tend not to watch that plane until they engage it. 
 

Folks in 2D can identify an aircraft a lot sooner than those in VR can unless zoom is used (from my own experiences before I went to VR).
 

With alternate visibility turned off this is a none issue. With alternate visibility on it is weird - that is the only real and practical difference. 
 

Caveat:  I’ve never used this mod in 2D so I have no idea if it turns people into AWACS, but if it does so what.

 

Personally speaking, the ability to check 6 with Track IR is way more of an advantage because it can keep you alive , but that’s how it goes. 
 

von Tom

Edited May 2, 2020 by von_Tom
Clarification

[SharpeXB]

9 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

Edit: for somebody so obsessed with fairness in multiplayer @SharpeXB I find it interesting that you've only logged a total of two flight hours between our server and WoL since September 2019.

Yeah I don’t know why I should care. Multiplayer is just poorly done and boring. You can join a game with 84 people in it and not see any action for half an hour or more. That poor mission design is another topic which I did actually discus with the server owner above. Combat Box is a bit better than WoL or TAW but mostly MP just isn’t a good use of my gaming time. 
Topic for another thread. 
My opinion is related to the game as a whole and not just myself. 

8 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

 

It seems that the zoom mod will not be made to work for monitors after the next patch.

That still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a cheat for one VR player to use it against another VR player

Its a Mod that’s being used on Mods Off servers. 

[[DBS]Browning]

Sharpe, you're claiming that something you have no experience of is an unfair advantage in a game mode you don't play.

Of course, that doesn't mean you aren't entitled to an opinion, but it certainly does mean you lack the expertise others in this thread have.

[Barnacles]

1 minute ago, [DBS]Browning said:

Sharpe, you're claiming that something you have no experience of is an unfair advantage in a game mode you don't play.

Of course, that doesn't mean you aren't entitled to an opinion, but it certainly does mean you lack the expertise others in this thread have.

What's more, the fact that he's arguing against something that improves the spotting in a mode that he doesn't play because the spotting is bad, is admirably altruistic.

[von_Tom]

16 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

My opinion is related to the game as a whole and not just myself. 

 

I find this comment interesting.  What one does in their own room (mods on or off, other mods, software hacks and so on) is of no consequence to anyone else.  It is only when it might affect another player in a pvp environment that it is considered a cheat.  Ergo, the comments are not related to the game as a whole but to the use by some people and how it affects the pvp gameplay environment.

 

I'll bow out of this "discussion" because it really boils down to:

 

1.  It's a cheat because it allows people to see aircraft too far away and identify them quicker allowing them to gain an advantage.

 

against

 

2.  It isn't a cheat because it allows VR users parity in terms of spotting contacts and possibly identifying them sooner, but in the real world it confers no material advantage but what it actually does is it removes a disadvantage.

 

The tragedy is that VR users have 2D and VR experiences to draw upon, whereas those in 2D don't, and anecdotal evidence is no substitute for actual experience.

 

/out

 

von Tom

[Beazil]

22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah I don’t know why I should care. Multiplayer is just poorly done and boring. You can join a game with 84 people in it and not see any action for half an hour or more. That poor mission design is another topic which I did actually discus with the server owner above. Combat Box is a bit better than WoL or TAW but mostly MP just isn’t a good use of my gaming time. 
Topic for another thread. 
My opinion is related to the game as a whole and not just myself. 

That still doesn’t change the fact that it’s a cheat for one VR player to use it against another VR player

Its a Mod that’s being used on Mods Off servers. 

Let me take a stab at it.  You really want to be heard on this subject.  You feel your perspective is important because you've seen the "evidence" with your own eyes in the op's video.  The one where he "discovers" the great conspiracy on the part of "some pilots" to defraud him of his "acedom" through the evil manipulation of code meant to slide under the radar as a means of cheating.  And you are so invested in this belief that despite several attempt to get through that stubborn skull of yours, you are convinced that this miscarriage of great justice can no longer be "foistered" on the playerbase.  N'est pas?

[SharpeXB]

13 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

Sharpe, you're claiming that something you have no experience of is an unfair advantage in a game mode you don't play.

Of course, that doesn't mean you aren't entitled to an opinion, but it certainly does mean you lack the expertise others in this thread have.

It’s really a very simple question. Hardly worth 10 pages of debate. It’s a Mod which materially alters the gameplay and confers an advantage on the user. Such a Mod should require the Mods On mode. Anyone with a single hour of game time could tell you that. It’s the “experts” who are creating elaborate justifications for a cheat. 

[Beazil]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

It’s really a very simple question. Hardly worth 10 pages of debate. It’s a Mod which materially alters the gameplay and confers an advantage on the user. Such a Mod should require the Mods On mode. Anyone with a single hour of game time could tell you that. It’s the “experts” who are creating elaborate justifications for a cheat. 

 

I like how you slide past my attempts at direct engagement.  And avoid evidence, direct statements from the developer, the ongoing testimony of your fellow players and basically anything else that would influence your perspective because you might have to, I dunno, stop with the bull.

 

You don't know jack about jack.  And you seem pretty determined to remain that way.  Good work.

[SharpeXB]

13 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Let me take a stab at it.  You really want to be heard on this subject.  You feel your perspective is important because you've seen the "evidence" with your own eyes in the op's video.  The one where he "discovers" the great conspiracy on the part of "some pilots" to defraud him of his "acedom" through the evil manipulation of code meant to slide under the radar as a means of cheating.  And you are so invested in this belief that despite several attempt to get through that stubborn skull of yours, you are convinced that this miscarriage of great justice can no longer be "foistered" on the playerbase.  N'est pas?

Like I said, I honestly don’t care about multiplayer so much or my score or stats etc. And this game isn’t an ultra competitive esport. 
Now if I was super competitive and took MP very seriously? Yes this sort of thing would really irk me. We’ve got players who want to regulate skins and Technochat or any aspect of MP that results in an uneven field. If this was an esport? Oh this Mod would be banned for certain. 

[Beazil]

Are you seriously some xbox kid who thinks this is about "scores"?  That would explain alot.

[[DBS]Browning]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

 I honestly don’t care about multiplayer so much or my score

 

2 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Are you seriously some xbox kid who thinks this is about "scores"?

 

Take some time to read Beazil. He said the exact reverse of what you are accusing him of.

You have been very aggressive in this thread; jumping to conclusions and calling people names. It detracts from your arguments and is the kind of behavious that usualy results in locked threads.

[Beazil]

Yes.  I do try to figure out the perspectives of those I speak to and I do try and communicate.  I have been aggressive because the tone has been an agressive one.  It was that way before I dipped my wick in here.  

Allow me to clarify - I am as passionate about this sim as anyone here.  I doubt anyone could make an arguement to the contrary.  I am invested in this community and it's overall well being.  

I will not sit idly by while my community is splintered on this issue.  Especially while we are all busy flinging poo at each other.  Your point is well taken and appreciated, believe it or not.

 

Not sure I'm prepared to lay down as the unreasonable party in this discussion however.  Yes, I've thrown some names, but we are all grown ups right?  Expect to eat some dirt if you start off the mudball fight.  I do.

 

 

6 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

 

Take some time to read Beazil. He said the exact reverse of what you are accusing him of.

You have been very aggressive in this thread; jumping to conclusions and calling people names. It detracts from your arguments and is the kind of behavious that usualy results in locked threads.

S!

As I have said, I hope this issues gets solved soon.

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Are you seriously some xbox kid who thinks this is about "scores"?  That would explain alot.

I just said that I wasn’t. So. No. 

12 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

Take some time to read Beazil.

Why? He just seems to resort to name calling... 

40 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

What's more, the fact that he's arguing against something that improves the spotting in a mode that he doesn't play because the spotting is bad, is admirably altruistic.

Actually what I’m giving you is an unbiased opinion. 
I don’t play MP very much

I don’t use VR
I’m not ultra competitive or care about stats and scores. 
 

So I don’t really have any stake personally in this one way or another. That’s honestly a good perspective. 

[Beazil]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

I just said that I wasn’t. So. No. 

Good, at least that's a response.

Honestly, for a guy that doesn't fly online or can't be bothered to investigate something themselves, you sure are stuck in your viewpoint.  That's your perogative.  I give up trying to convince you otherwise.  If you want to invest as much time as you appear to acting like Geraldo Rivera on an expose I guess that's up to you.  I assure you there is nothing nefarious going on with your opponents by using this mod.   Your playerbase would devour them if there was something sinister going on.  They would be banned in our small community and develop a stigma that could last years.  The publisher could lose sales, affecting growth and expansion, let alone maintenance of what we already have.  It isn't worth it.

People who actually cheat always get caught.  They are usually not nearly as clever as they think they are and server admins hunt them down and squish them when they appear.

Let's give each other a little more credit.  

[=420=Syphen]

11 hours ago, Talon_ said:

Edit: for somebody so obsessed with fairness in multiplayer @SharpeXB I find it interesting that you've only logged a total of two flight hours between our server and WoL since September 2019.

 

Yeah, I looked into it a while back too. Never flies online, and also hates VR with a passion despite never flying in VR and constantly trolls around in the VR section of the forums.  Mostly Sharpe is just a goofy troll, best ignored.  We often get a good laugh out of what he says. Ignorance to the max & just likes to fight or force his uniformed opionion on people. 

 

In almost every single thread he dips his head into, if you review his post history, he is fighting with people.  As they say: 

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole." -Raylan Givens, Justified

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by [CPT]HawkeyeP

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

and also hates VR with a passion 

I don’t “hate” VR. You guys are just really defensive about any opinion on the subject. 

You’ll notice I only respond to a VR topic when it starts advocating changes to the game that affect everyone else.

 

Like this topic. VR drove a mod that can be used as an exploit online. 

10 minutes ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

Never flies online

The vast majority of flight sim players do not play multiplayer very often. That doesn’t make me unusual. I do play online occasionally but it’s not very entertaining so I don’t do it often. 

Edited May 2, 2020 by SharpeXB

[RedRider]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t “hate” VR. You guys are just really defensive about any opinion on the subject. 

You’ll notice I only respond to a VR topic when it starts advocating changes to the game that affect everyone else.

 

Like this topic. VR drove a mod that can be used as an exploit online. 

The vast majority of flight sim players do not play multiplayer very often. That doesn’t make me unusual. I do play online occasionally but it’s not very entertaining so I don’t do it often. 

 

Doesn't play multiplayer. Opinion on multiplayer "issue" is worthless.

Edited May 2, 2020 by RedRider
Clarification

[Semor76]

22 minutes ago, RedRider said:

 

Doesn't play multiplayer. Opinion on multiplayer "issue" is worthless.

OMG.....head--->table

[Beazil]

37 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t “hate” VR. You guys are just really defensive about any opinion on the subject. 

You’ll notice I only respond to a VR topic when it starts advocating changes to the game that affect everyone else.

 

Like this topic. VR drove a mod that can be used as an exploit online. 

The vast majority of flight sim players do not play multiplayer very often. That doesn’t make me unusual. I do play online occasionally but it’s not very entertaining so I don’t do it often. 

Well I guess you should stay offline.  It's Scary out there.  

 

What makes you unusual is your history and dogged, stubborn and immovable perspective.  And you knew that already, so..

Want to go around again?  We can do this all week if you want.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, RedRider said:

 

Doesn't play multiplayer. Opinion on multiplayer "issue" is worthless.

I do play online occasionally. I would do multiplayer more often if it wasn’t so poorly done, in its current state it’s really a waste of my time. That’s another topic. 

21 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

 It's Scary out there.  

I wish it was scary. It’s more just tedious and boring. Ask why, although this game has grown quite a lot over the last seven years, multiplayer attendance has remained flat and mostly confined to one or two servers. 

[Beazil]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I do play online occasionally. I would do multiplayer more often if it wasn’t so poorly done, in its current state it’s really a waste of my time. That’s another topic. 

I wish it was scary. It’s more just tedious and boring. Ask why, although this game has grown quite a lot over the last seven years, multiplayer attendance has remained flat and mostly confined to one or two servers. 

Well, that's a bit of a shame.  I wish our genre would grow more and I wish it had more to offer you as a player.  Hopefully it will.  I understand what you are saying about the environment being stale, but there are different servers to explore out there with different objectives and styles of play.  It's still team Deathmatch to a degree but the various moderators do the best they can to provide an interactive experience that varies with each.  They do their best.

If that doesn't float your boat, and you appreciate offline more because that works for you, for whatever reason, awesome.

[[DBS]TH0R]

2 hours ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

 

Yeah, I looked into it a while back too. Never flies online, and also hates VR with a passion despite never flying in VR and constantly trolls around in the VR section of the forums.  Mostly Sharpe is just a goofy troll, best ignored.  We often get a good laugh out of what he says. Ignorance to the max & just likes to fight or force his uniformed opionion on people. 

 

In almost every single thread he dips his head into, if you review his post history, he is fighting with people.  As they say: 

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole." -Raylan Givens, Justified

 

He is funny to play around with. I am just waiting for the "stupid scaling" and "certified HDR cure" remarks... ?

Edited May 2, 2020 by [DBS]TH0R

[=WoVi=Defbond]

Hi, I'm new to IL-2 and exclusively play it VR. I've had the game for a bit but never bothered with it until recently when I was able to get a Rift S for clarity since I can't supersample at all without breaking the FPS, also recently discoverd Open Composite and without it the game would be unplayable do to the poor FPS. These are my 2 cents on this subject.

I can not and will not play this game online without the 3DMigoto mod, this is the only thing that allows me to find targets at 2-10km, everything above 2km does not render in most conditions. Targets that I manage to spot at larger ranges can not be tracked once they enter medium ranges because they disappear, they stop rendering at a certain distance. Using this mod to track far away targets means total lack of SA as you can not look anywhere else not even for a split second, 9/10 times I lose the target if I happen to check chat, 6 or any instruments.

I've played 2D and the spotting is FAR superior, even without zoom, the dots are small but very distinct, this is not the case in VR where at large ranges the target glints, then disappears then blends in with the background as it loses its chrome/glint. The VR zoom provided by the game is so poor that if the target goes over trees or other terrain features it essentially disappears, Also forget about ID'ing the target with in-game VR zoom unless you are very close, the mod allows for aircraft ID at realistic ranges due to poor resolution in VR. Make no mistake, 2D spotting has a huge advantage over VR with 3Dmigoto because the max zoom setting is worthless due to the way the game renders targets over different distances. I too have been tempted to orbit an airfield at 10km, spot a plane taking off then attack it when it's out of AA range, THIS LITERALLY NEVER HAPPENS, because more than 90% of the time I lose the target when it gets closer. 

The real problem is that spotting in IL-2 is game breaking, I have only been playing for less than a week but already I want to quit due to the pure frustration linked to spotting, and all of this with a top VR Headset, decent system and the 3Dmigoto mod. I want to mention that this has nothing to do with my flying skills, I've been able to get the upper hand on most opponents if I can see them. Anyone saying this is a cheat for VR users has clearly never used it in VR and getting this mod banned would cause the already scarce amount of MP VR pilots in here to quit, I know I would. 

I came over from War Thunder, clearly IL-2 is superior and I enjoy it vastly but this spotting nonsense needs to be addressed, in War Thunder VR, you don't have zoom at all, and spotting is easy because it's optimize. I understand there may be some limitations to the old graphics engine and this isn't possible in IL-2 but until then mods like 3dmigoto are absolutely essential to provide some reasonable alternative to the lack of optimization for VR players. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Well, that's a bit of a shame.  I wish our genre would grow more and I wish it had more to offer you as a player.  Hopefully it will. 

New topic

 

[Beazil]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

New topic

 

Cheers!

[Tycoon]

37 minutes ago, Defbond said:

The real problem is that spotting in IL-2 is game breaking, I have only been playing for less than a week but already I want to quit due to the pure frustration linked to spotting, and all of this with a top VR Headset, decent system and the 3Dmigoto mod. I want to mention that this has nothing to do with my flying skills, I've been able to get the upper hand on most opponents if I can see them. Anyone saying this is a cheat for VR users has clearly never used it in VR and getting this mod banned would cause the already scarce amount of MP VR pilots in here to quit, I know I would. 

 

Yep, the problem really is spotting is completely broken in this game, that goes for 2d as well. To bad everyone rejected the alternate spotting, it's not perfect but it's a lot better than regular. 

On 4/30/2020 at 9:02 PM, JG51_Beazil said:

 

 

At 3:18 is this 10x migoto zoom with ingame zoom applied as well? thx

Edited May 2, 2020 by Tycoon

[Creep]

On 4/30/2020 at 10:05 AM, E69_geramos109 said:

A lot of people with VR told me how they were able to see contacts on their base just after take off from more than 50km away. After a lot of talking and a lot of weird experiences about being intercepted I decided to see that by myself. 

Some VR users will complain afraid to lose their advantage over the rest but is funny to see them complaining about how bad they see in Vr while they tell how much enemies are taking off from whatever base to text to the side all info after that.

 

I wrote up and revised my response several times trying to approach this diplomatically after reading through the thread. I gave up.

 

You're wrong. VR handicaps the players that use it even with 3dMigoto, but it is more fun to use. And that is why we use it. Please stop speaking about things you do not understand. 

[Beazil]

35 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

Yep, the problem really is spotting is completely broken in this game, that goes for 2d as well. To bad everyone rejected the alternate spotting, it's not perfect but it's a lot better than regular. 

At 3:18 is this 10x migoto zoom with ingame zoom applied as well? thx

Lol let's face it, its a bad video.  It was poorly thought out.  I disabled in game zoom because I run a Pimax.  For in game zoom to work I have to enable parallel projections - a VR rendering technique that I don't fully understand but some vr games require it.  I had it disabled and not mapped.  It is possible to super zoom by layering migoto with in game but it's not a good option for me.

I also was unable to get all zoom modes working in non VR.  That might be user error or by design, but I think its user error on my part.

Tycoon: that was max zoom I could achieve without in game zoom layered on.  That was in VR so it was as full as one could get without the additional layer.

 

I was thinking about doing something better vid wise and could try to set up the system to show you what that would look like if you want.

Edited May 2, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[=WoVi=Defbond]

11 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

It is possible to super zoom by layering migoto with in game but it's not a good option for me.

Yes, this is possible by pressing the PgUp key along with VR zoom. Does it help? Not in the slightest! The VR zoom seems to enlarge the models that render so you would think that using it along with 10x would make ID'ing possible at extreme ranges, but it doesn't because if you can't hold your head perfectly still it's just a blurred mess. The dots render render further away than when using VR zoom for spotting, but 10x is just a gimmick because the FOV is no narrow it's like trying to find a grain of sand with a telescope.

10x is good for ID'ing and not for cheating the spotting mechanics as some in this thread have suggested.

Practically 5x is all you need for spotting, and it's more advantageous since you have a wider field of view and can scan a larger area, that is if your target is rendering and not invisible. Double binding VR zoom along with 5x spotting may offer the best choice for spotting in VR, though I haven't been able to test this yet. 

I wish the 2D users who accuse in this thread saw what we saw and felt what we felt. Imagine feeling such wonderful immersion that you are willing to cope with the disadvantages it brings, and after getting jumped by some BnZ'er, thinking every time: man if I was in 2D I would have saw that guy but I'm not going back, the sense of flight outweighs all of it's (hopefully) temporary disadvantages. 

[Tycoon]

26 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Lol let's face it, its a bad video.  It was poorly thought out.  I disabled in game zoom because I run a Pimax.  For in game zoom to work I have to enable parallel projections - a VR rendering technique that I don't fully understand but some vr games require it.  I had it disabled and not mapped.  It is possible to super zoom by layering migoto with in game but it's not a good option for me.

I also was unable to get all zoom modes working in non VR.  That might be user error or by design, but I think its user error on my part.

Tycoon: that was max zoom I could achieve without in game zoom layered on.  That was in VR so it was as full as one could get without the additional layer.

 

I was thinking about doing something better vid wise and could try to set up the system to show you what that would look like if you want.

Well ingame vr zoom is limited from what i've heard right? like 1.5x or something. I was just curious what migoto + ingame zoom in vr looked like before I drew a conclusion on all this. 

 

Btw to get migoto working in non vr you have to change a config text in the mod from 0 to 1, the directions on the migoto forum post show where. 

9 minutes ago, Defbond said:

 The VR zoom seems to enlarge the models that render so you would think that using it along with 10x would make ID'ing possible at extreme ranges, 

I don't understand, are you saying every 60 seconds in Africa a minute passes or does the ingame vr zoom do something with plane size that ingame 2d zoom doesn't? 

13 minutes ago, Defbond said:

10x is good for ID'ing and not for cheating the spotting mechanics as some in this thread have suggested.

 

Yes but this is what i'm wondering about, when i used this in 2d i could identify planes much farther than with normal zoom. all the vr players here have said that the view in vr offsets the increased zoom so it's equal with 2d, once I see this I'll be done with the debate. 

 

Edit: outside of alternate spotting that is, clearly there is something very wrong with the  migoto zoom there and it's not fair. 

[=WoVi=Defbond]

5 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

10 minutes ago, Defbond said:

 The VR zoom seems to enlarge the models that render so you would think that using it along with 10x would make ID'ing possible at extreme ranges, 

I don't understand, are you saying every 60 seconds in Africa a minute passes or does the ingame vr zoom do something with plane size that ingame 2d zoom doesn't? 

Please bear with me as I have only been playing for a week and only in VR, except for some testing in 2D mainly to compare spotting. The ingame VR zoom has an advantage in that it will render dots further away as compared to no zoom, this will help in spotting at close ranges (3-4km) because without the VR zoom the dot won't render at all, from what I have tested this is not exactly the case in 2D, where small dot becomes larger dot and if close enough features of the airframe can be distinguished. Now, if we were to combine the ingame VR zoom with Migoto zoom, it would be theoretically possible to ID targets at long ranges if both of the following conditions are met:

a) your head is nailed to the chair facing the exact direction of the target and you are not breathing so as not to perturb the image.
b) auto level is on  

[Beazil]

"Well ingame vr zoom is limited from what i've heard right? like 1.5x or something. I was just curious what migoto + ingame zoom in vr looked like before I drew a conclusion on all this."

 

In game you have zoom in non VR that works in and out.  Zoom in zoom out. 

VR zoom in game is more on/off with a slight zooming animation.  It is about the same as the gunsight view in IL2 1946, Mabey lean to gunsight ala Cliffs of Dover.  With me so far? 

For whatever technical reasons that exist, zoom beyond a gunsight view in VR doesn't work.  Enter 3d migoto mod.  Think again like Cliffs or original IL2, there were different zooms like pgup, pgdwn and home or something like that on the keyboard.  Or rather a low/med/high level zooms.  

I am a creature of habit so I almost always map zoom to my ECM 4way switch.  Forward is zoom in and back is zoom out. 

I have accidentally left zoom VR and zoom 3d migoto mapped to the same button as a result (I use joytokey to map buttons for migoto mod). 

When I do that I can wind up with a mega zoomed crossed eyed fish eye thing that I honestly find disorienting and so I don't usually enable both.  I'd have to set up my system to work properly like that, and that would take some time to set up/tweak. 

Hypothetically if I double mapped VR zoom to max zoom in 3d migoto and enabled parallel projections it might result in a super magnified image.  But on the lowest 3d migoto zoom setting double mapped it's always messed up for me.  I hope that made sense.

 

Meh what the hell, I'll see if I can do that and report back.....

Edited May 2, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[Tycoon]

33 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

"Well ingame vr zoom is limited from what i've heard right? like 1.5x or something. I was just curious what migoto + ingame zoom in vr looked like before I drew a conclusion on all this."

 

In game you have zoom in non VR that works in and out.  Zoom in zoom out. 

VR zoom in game is more on/off with a slight zooming animation.  It is about the same as the gunsight view in IL2 1946, Mabey lean to gunsight ala Cliffs of Dover.  With me so far? 

For whatever technical reasons that exist, zoom beyond a gunsight view in VR doesn't work.  Enter 3d migoto mod.  Think again like Cliffs or original IL2, there were different zooms like pgup, pgdwn and home or something like that on the keyboard.  Or rather a low/med/high level zooms.  

I am a creature of habit so I almost always map zoom to my ECM 4way switch.  Forward is zoom in and back is zoom out. 

I have accidentally left zoom VR and zoom 3d migoto mapped to the same button as a result (I use joytokey to map buttons for migoto mod). 

When I do that I can wind up with a mega zoomed crossed eyed fish eye thing that I honestly find disorienting and so I don't usually enable both.  I'd have to set up my system to work properly like that, and that would take some time to set up/tweak. 

Hypothetically if I double mapped VR zoom to max zoom in 3d migoto and enabled parallel projections it might result in a super magnified image.  But on the lowest 3d migoto zoom setting double mapped it's always messed up for me.  I hope that made sense.

 

Meh what the hell, I'll see if I can do that and report back.....

So ingame vr zoom affect doesn't work with migoto without messing up vr view?

 

 

 

 

This is comparing vr 10x migoto zoom with max 2d zoom.

 

 

 

 

Obviously no advantage as far as zoom goes here, would just like to see it tacked on with ingame vr zoom then everything will have been shown here. I'm sure anyone with vr could post a screenshot, shouldn't be too hard.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Tycoon

[Beazil]

10 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

So ingame vr zoom affect doesn't work with migoto without messing up vr view?

Not for me.  I just tried it again and it didn't work, but like I said in my prior post it might work if I keep trying.  

3d migoto requires some tweaking to get working.  There are convergence separations for each headset at low/med/high for each user.  Trouble is even two guys with the same headset can have dramatically different settings already.  So while Fenris, for example has a great thread on the mod with some pre configured setups already, most users wind up having to adjust these separation settings one at a time.  It's a little cumbersome and takes time to get right or your image is horrifically garbled.  On the plus side it's a godsend when set up properly.

I also have a whole boatload of different settings on the pimax itself at different resolutions to tweak, software in steamvr and Nvidia tweaks to work with.  It's a lot.  When it's messed up it doesn't work and so far I haven't been able to get them to play nice together - in game VR zoom and 3d migoto that is.  It works, just not well.