P-40

[BlitzPig_EL]

"Fire in the Sky" by Eric Bergerud.

 

I consider this the definitive text on the air campaign over New Guinea.

It goes in depth into why New Guinea, and the Southwest Pacific Theatre was so important to the Japanese, and hence the Allies.  It also gets into the conditions that both sides had to endure in that jungle hell hole, and of course it breaks down the aircraft used.

Edited February 1, 2021 by BlitzPig_EL

[DD_fruitbat]

45 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I've said for some time now that New Guinea would be a great gateway into the Pacific.  Except for early on it was mostly an Army show for both sides, so no need for making carriers.  It would provide a setting for a 2+ year career for the single player crowd.  The Allied aircraft used there are mostly very well documented types, or versions of planes we already have.  The IJA types of course could be problematic, but there were only two main fighter types used by Japan there, the Nakajima Ki43, and the Kawasaki Ki61, and these are well known and documented aircraft.

 

I know there is a very vocal group of players that think that the Pacific is only about naval aviation, and I would like to see that part of the Pacific war as well, but, New Guinea could provide an easier path to the theater.  And it must be noted that the meat grinder that was New Guinea is the air campaign that broke the back of Japanese Army aviation, not some gloriously short one or two day fight over the blue Pacific.  The IJAAC lost half of their most experienced combat pilots over New Guinea.  They would never recover from those losses.

 

A New Guinea campaign would be epic.

 

Just the setting is epic, let alone the campaign which was multifaceted. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by DD_fruitbat

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

I agree about the P-40 under-performing in BoX. If revision to the flight characteristics is not in the cards, then at least clickable upgrades in the list. If it's fuel, use the example of the 150 octane upgrade in the Mustang and do a 100 octane upgrade in the list. Even if one does not totally revamp the flight characteristics, there are smaller things that can still help. In MP, I usually resort to ground attack in the P-40. I avoid air-to-air if possible and focus on the ground game. I prefer the Hurricane for the fighter/bomber mixed role where air-to-air is more likely because the armament is more versatile and it can maneuver better.

 

I read several accounts where in North Africa, the RAF actually replaced Hurricanes with P-40s or used P-40s as escorts for ground attack Hurricanes. I think that at least gives a sense that the P-40 was a solid choice, at least in the 1941-43 time period. In BoX, the Hurricanes would be escorting the P-40s because the P-40 is such a dog air-to-air.

 

Burma or New Guinea would be great. I'd buy.

Edited February 1, 2021 by NO.20_Krispy_Duck

[blue_max]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Ducktons!

 

What are you looking for?

Nice, thanks. Something that is both well written/interesting to read, and talks a lot (but not exclusively) about the air part of that campaign. Oh and I'm pretty limited on time, so something not toooo long

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

"Fire in the Sky" by Eric Bergerud.

 

I consider this the definitive text on the air campaign over New Guinea.

It goes in depth into why New Guinea, and the Southwest Pacific Theatre was so important to the Japanese, and hence the Allies.  It also gets into the conditions that both sides had to endure in that jungle hell hole, and of course it breaks down the aircraft used.

cool, thanks! I put it on my to-read list

Edit: arg, @BlitzPig_EL, the book isn't available on kindle and all the physical copies are in the US, very expensive to ship over to my country. Do you have any idea where I could get an ebook version?

Edited February 1, 2021 by blue_max

[BlitzPig_EL]

Sorry blue_max, no idea about ebooks.  I only read printed books.  Just love the feel of the pages in my hands.

[Guest deleted@83466]

2 hours ago, blue_max said:

Nice, thanks. Something that is both well written/interesting to read, and talks a lot (but not exclusively) about the air part of that campaign. Oh and I'm pretty limited on time, so something not toooo long

cool, thanks! I put it on my to-read list

Edit: arg, @BlitzPig_EL, the book isn't available on kindle and all the physical copies are in the US, very expensive to ship over to my country. Do you have any idea where I could get an ebook version?

 

I see it on Kindle.

[blue_max]

11 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Sorry blue_max, no idea about ebooks.  I only read printed books.  Just love the feel of the pages in my hands.

Yes, but do you love it enough to cover 75$ shipping fees for a 12$ used copy?

 

3 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

I see it on Kindle.

I see it too, but then you click the 'buy' button and suddenly it's not available...

[BlitzPig_EL]

$75 shipping?  OUCH!!!

 

Where are you?

[blue_max]

11 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

$75 shipping?  OUCH!!!

 

Where are you?

Netherlands... but I did a bit more digging, and I managed to get the kindle edition by setting my address to some random place in the US. But since I don't actually own a kindle, I'm reduced to reading the damn book on my phone. That's how much I want to read this!

[Uufflakke]

9 minutes ago, blue_max said:

Netherlands... but I did a bit more digging, and I managed to get the kindle edition by setting my address to some random place in the US. But since I don't actually own a kindle, I'm reduced to reading the damn book on my phone. That's how much I want to read this!

 

Including shipping about € 26,-

https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Fire-In-The-Sky-The-Air-War-In-The-South-Pacific-by-Eric-M-Bergerud-47700-U/174498094040?hash=item28a0e59bd8%3Ag%3A5ngAAOSwtfhYoZ1R&LH_BIN=1

 

Even cheaper at Boekwinkeltjes.nl.

Including shipping about €20,-

https://www.boekwinkeltjes.nl/b/197290359/Fire-In-The-Sky/

(Then you have the book by the end of the week already)

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Uufflakke

[claw]

4 minutes ago, blue_max said:

Netherlands... but I did a bit more digging, and I managed to get the kindle edition by setting my address to some random place in the US. But since I don't actually own a kindle, I'm reduced to reading the damn book on my phone. That's how much I want to read this!

There is a free app on the Amazon website to read Kindle books on Kobo readers. Perhaps there are apps for other devices too. 

[blue_max]

10 minutes ago, Uufflakke said:

 

Including shipping about € 26,-

https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Fire-In-The-Sky-The-Air-War-In-The-South-Pacific-by-Eric-M-Bergerud-47700-U/174498094040?hash=item28a0e59bd8%3Ag%3A5ngAAOSwtfhYoZ1R&LH_BIN=1

 

wow, thanks! Never considered ebay. I'm registering an account right now!

[BlitzPig_EL]

I appreciate your determination blue_ max.  Fire in the Sky is a very deep dive into the subject, but well worth the time.

Being from the Netherlands, you will find the reasons why New Guinea was so important to the Japanese has a lot to do with the Japanese occupation of the Netherlands East Indies, which was one of the main reasons for them starting the wider Pacific war in the first place.

[blue_max]

18 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I appreciate your determination blue_ max.  Fire in the Sky is a very deep dive into the subject, but well worth the time.

Being from the Netherlands, you will find the reasons why New Guinea was so important to the Japanese has a lot to do with the Japanese occupation of the Netherlands East Indies, which was one of the main reasons for them starting the wider Pacific war in the first place.

Yes indeed, one of the reasons why I'm particularly interested in this book!

[Ram399]

1 hour ago, blue_max said:

That's how much I want to read this!

I might be a bit late if you've already bought the Kindle version but I've actually got a pdf of Fire in the Sky on my PC.

I'd post a link to it here but I'm not sure if I'd be breaking some kind of rule by sharing media like that, if you want I could DM it to you though.

[Props]

Nice post BlitzPig_EL about New Guinea. Though I really like the naval air war scenarios and kind of prefer flying from carriers, I agree that the New Guinea early war campaigns would be great fun! I had a lot of fun on those maps back in the day in the old Zekes vs Wildcat server and we already have a couple of planes ready to go like the P-40, P39, etc., just need a couple of Japanese planes built up and a map. It is a small part of the history of the Pacific war that gets forgotten and though I think Up the Solomons would make a great addition to this sim also negating the need to build carriers for the most part, I'll take anything in the Pacific as a nice change of pace, and worthy of consideration.   

[blue_max]

1 hour ago, Ram399 said:

I might be a bit late if you've already bought the Kindle version but I've actually got a pdf of Fire in the Sky on my PC.

I'd post a link to it here but I'm not sure if I'd be breaking some kind of rule by sharing media like that, if you want I could DM it to you though.

Hey, thanks for the offer! In the end I managed to find a nice used copy from a local bookshop via @Uufflakke so that won't be necessary. But I definitely appreciate it!

[Ram399]

14 minutes ago, blue_max said:

I managed to find a nice used copy from a local bookshop

I'm glad to hear that, enjoy the read!
As Blitz said, there is something nice about having a physical copy in your hands.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

21 hours ago, Props said:

 we already have a couple of planes ready to go like the P-40, P39, etc., just need a couple of Japanese planes built up and a map. 

I gotta say, I dont think the current p40 is ready to go by any stretch as it is so flawed. Although playing in singleplayer without engine timers has dramatically improved the plane for me. It wont turn with a 109 e7 continuously, but it will out turn one in the first turn while trying to get guns on target. It also really responds with a little rudder in turns.

 

Wouldn't we need a K or M model for New Guinea also?

[BlitzPig_EL]

N model for New Guinea, and most of the mid/late timeframe of the Pacific.  Early on the RAAF and RNZAF had Es, I think.  But yeah we would have to have the 56" of manifold that were normal for these models when used by the Western Allies.

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

I agree, Drew. It's kind of there in form and shape, but needs revisiting the performance statistics. I'd love to see an early long-nose P-40, P-40E and P-40N available for New Guinea. The P-39 could be thrown into the mix, and the P-51 remains a possible add-on for later action. Then there's the P-38, which could also be useful in an earlier model. It seems to me, and it has been said, that the Japanese side of the house is harder in terms of getting proper info.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Early razor back P47 as well.  In fact the highest scoring American Army ace in the Pacific up to that point was shot down while in his P47 over New Guinea, by a Ki43.

 

The introduction by the IJA of the Ki61 into the theatre had USAAF commander General Kenny firing off desperate calls to Washington to get P38s in New Guinea, as the P40s and 39s were handily out performed by the new Japanese fighter.

[Algy-Lacey]

 

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The introduction by the IJA of the Ki61 into the theatre had USAAF commander General Kenny firing off desperate calls to Washington to get P38s in New Guinea, as the P40s and 39s were handily out performed by the new Japanese fighter.

 

"when an initial production example was flown by the Imperial Japanese Army in mock combat against a captured example of the USAAF's Curtis P-40E and an imported Messerschmitt Bf109E, the Ki-61 was found to be so superior in overall performance that the Army had no hesitation in accepting the type for service under the official designation Army Type 3 Fighter Model 1"  -  From the book 'The Concise Guide to Axis Aircraft of World War II' by David Mondey

 

The Bf109E had a DB 601 and a wing area of roughly 16 meters

The Ki-61 had a license built DB 601 with 1,175 hp and a wing area of 20 square meters

 

I can imagine that the 'Hien' would fly like a more manouverable early 109, but with its top speed of 350 mph it would be outclassed by allied fighters later in the war.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Algy-Lacey

[BlitzPig_EL]

Early on they had P40s, not sure when Spitfires made their appearance.  Don't think there were any Hurricanes, but I'm not totally sure.  RNZAF used P40s for some time and eventually got Corsairs.

[Algy-Lacey]

I'm not sure when Spitfires were operational in New Guinea, apart from this article (http://warbirdsnews.com/warbird-restorations/supermarine-spitfire-mk-vc-jg891-flies-again.html)  I just found which shows that RAAF Spitfires were in the thick of it in the summer of 1943...

 

"...79 Squadron formed up at Laverton, and began moving to the frontline base at Vivigani Airfield on Goodenough Island in New Guinea. The unit moved to Kiriwina, one of the Trobriand Islands now belonging to Papua New Guinea, during August, 1943. Kiriwina, at the time, was the closest Allied airfield to Japanese units then based at Rabaul"

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

This has turned into a great thread! Glad I'm not the only one who loves this game and the p-40, but is not satisfied with how it is portrayed here.

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

My understanding is the Ki61 suffered more from reliability issues and that keeping the planes in service proved much harder than with the Ki43 or A6M. The P-40 might have been middling in performance, but it seemed capable of operating in a variety of adverse conditions like in the far east and in North Africa. It's kind of hard to get that worked into a simulator, though I know MS Flight Sims have had "random failures" as a feature going back a long time. I wonder if something like that could play a role in BoX. But that's kind of a side point. The thing that strikes me the most is that the P-40 is generally considered to have "mediocre" performance by 1943, though the P-40E in BoX really seems to have even less than that, and is widely considered a joke. Go into MP and suggest a low-level target raid with P-40s, and you'll get laughs in reply much of the time. Even though, in the Pacific, that was a favored tactic - P-40s coming in low and fast, hitting and moving back out.

Edited February 3, 2021 by NO.20_Krispy_Duck

[Bremspropeller]

I don't find the P-40 to be all that bad.

It's lack of engine power (and hence climb capability) is a concern in it's current state (and the cal 50 in general), but as long as the fight stays level or goes downstairs, the P-40 actually can hold it's own with a good stick in control. It's got a good turn and it's got a fairly good roll. It also dives reasonably well.

[BlitzPig_EL]

NO.20_Krispy_Duck, yes the Ki61 did suffer from maintenance issues as it's inline engine was far more complicated than the radials in the Ki43.  As an example, when depot level teardowns were needed, the engines had to be shipped to the Philippines from bases in New Guinea for that level of service.  In practical terms, this meant that Ki61 units in New Guinea had to fall back on the Ki43 while their Heins were down for maintenance, though because of the poor health conditions for pilots, on both sides, there were generally more operable aircraft than pilots fit to fly them.

 

Another interesting thing is that Japanese units in New Guinea had far fewer non-combat operational losses than the Allied air forces did.  People that know far more about this than I do speculate this was because the more lightly wing loaded IJA aircraft were easier to operate on the decidedly poor airfields in the theater. 

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

Just did an New Guinea mission tonight in modded IL2-1946 - P-40Es vs KI-43s in this mission. Lots of fun and something a little different. Maybe someday in BoX... just trying to stay optimistic.

[Props]

Yeah, just spent a day flying about 8 sorties in the P-40E against singles and multiple Axis aircraft in SP and found it quite lacking at medium to low altitudes where it should be at it's best. I don't remember it being quite this bad in Il2 '46 and it seemed to be a formidable opponent in both Euro and Pacific theaters back then. I thought the Russians also up engined it with a Klimov at some point but I didn't see the option in setup. As far as the .50's go I do think they're a bit under modelled in the game, but I get solid kills all the same due to the high rate of fire from 6 of them so I'm not go get into that whole ball of wax here as there is already enough on that topic elsewhere in the forum.

 

There's a lot of opportunity for adding some awesome planes via the Pacific and modding some of the existing planes to fit (P-38 F/G/H, later P-40s, P-400s- the 20mm cannon model was preferred in that theater- and F4F, F6F, and Corsairs would be nice a little later) and of course, adding some of my preferred planes A6M2 through 5, Ki-61, Ki-44, and Ki-43 along with some Vals, Kates and Betty bombers. New Guinea would be a great start, though as I've said before so would the Solomon Islands. I know this would be a lot of work for the devs, and contrary to popular belief there is a lot documentation and source material for all these planes out there you just gotta dig for it. I've been sort of compiling a large list of websites, docs, and books for a while when I'm in the mood, but am loathe to push my agenda by posting all this info about my pet subject for the "next" BoX because I know the devs are always busy working to make everything in this sim better and don't need to be pushed any harder than they already are. I just like to drop an occasional reminder that there are a few of us that would like to see the Pacific from the air especially while on the tail of an enemy aircraft.

 

Sidenote: Spitfires, mostly mark V's were present at Darwin early on and in New Guinea.  

 

Currently reading Eric Hammel's  Aces against Japan: The American Aces Speak Vol.1 again.

 

For a very interesting discussion of the A6M# Zero, development, combat tactics, and it's adversaries give this youtube vid a view: Drachinifel: The A6m Naval Carrier Fighter - Zero or Hero? 

 

[Dakpilot]

I think it was a bit less than 50 or so P-40's that were re-engined with the (early) Klimov 105P, the performance was worse than the original, some were used for training and they were not generally used as a front line fighter. 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

The two things I find frustrating are the sudden and catastrophic engine failure and the unforgiving nature in a low level fight. The over-rev/over-pressure issue produces immediate and total engine failure, whereas other planes seem to go through a phase where the engine is damaged, but continues running. The P-40 has the "Whine-Clatter-Stop" straight away, to the point it even seems to sustain battle damage better than over-rev, including hits from late war German planes producing "Engine Damaged" warnings, but it keeps going even as it smokes and spews oil. But boy, if you make a mistake it seizes right up.

 

The maneuvering thing, it just doesn't seem as competent as it has been described even down low. Quick bursts of emergency power help a little, but if you miss-handle the throttle even a little, it's "Whine-Clatter-Stop". You get better with practice at managing the engine, but you still get bitten on occasion if you're pressing hard in a dive/chase.

 

Yet I recall an interview with a Canadian pilot who converted from a Hurricane to a P-40 and he thought the P-40 was clearly a superior aircraft. The speed and competence at mid and low altitude of the P-40 were important.

Edited February 8, 2021 by NO.20_Krispy_Duck

[Dakpilot]

The P-40 E-1 we have is allowed to overboost to levels where it is producing about the same power as  1943 DB605 (of much larger capacity) not bad for a 1941 spec  Allison.. Not really surprising if it self destructed in short order, later engines of the same - 39 series had many upgrades to crank, block etc.  and restricted overboost. 

 

Careful attention to MP guage does not help as you can be off the scale, later models had MP guage that read higher, it is hard to manage.. with careful thought needed when going full beans

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[Catgut]

On 2/2/2021 at 12:34 PM, =AW=drewm3i-VR said:

Although playing in singleplayer without engine timers has dramatically improved the plane for me.

Sorry for the very basic question, but which setting permits this? I'd be curious to try out some of the American planes without the engine limits.

[CountZero]

30 minutes ago, Catgut said:

Sorry for the very basic question, but which setting permits this? I'd be curious to try out some of the American planes without the engine limits.

In realisam settings under costum turn on unbreakable option

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

5 hours ago, Dakpilot said:

The P-40 E-1 we have is allowed to overboost to levels where it is producing about the same power as  1943 DB605 (of much larger capacity) not bad for a 1941 spec  Allison.. Not really surprising if it self destructed in short order, later engines of the same - 39 series had many upgrades to crank, block etc.  and restricted overboost. 

 

Careful attention to MP guage does not help as you can be off the scale, later models had MP guage that read higher, it is hard to manage.. with careful thought needed when going full beans

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/allison-v-1710-39-power-output-at-sea-level-as-installed-in-p40e.44909/

 

British pilots over boosted the 1710-39 with 8:8 supercharger to over 70" for up to 20 minutes without catastrophic failure according to the memo from Alison itself. Without this type of historical boost, the in-game p-40 is a better looking IL-2 Sturmovik which is an insult to the pilots that flew it. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by =AW=drewm3i-VR

[Jade_Monkey]

14 hours ago, Props said:

Yeah, just spent a day flying about 8 sorties in the P-40E against singles and multiple Axis aircraft in SP and found it quite lacking at medium to low altitudes where it should be at it's best. I don't remember it being quite this bad in Il2 '46 and it seemed to be a formidable opponent in both Euro and Pacific theaters back then. I thought the Russians also up engined it with a Klimov at some point but I didn't see the option in setup. As far as the .50's go I do think they're a bit under modelled in the game, but I get solid kills all the same due to the high rate of fire from 6 of them so I'm not go get into that whole ball of wax here as there is already enough on that topic elsewhere in the forum.

 

There's a lot of opportunity for adding some awesome planes via the Pacific and modding some of the existing planes to fit (P-38 F/G/H, later P-40s, P-400s- the 20mm cannon model was preferred in that theater- and F4F, F6F, and Corsairs would be nice a little later) and of course, adding some of my preferred planes A6M2 through 5, Ki-61, Ki-44, and Ki-43 along with some Vals, Kates and Betty bombers. New Guinea would be a great start, though as I've said before so would the Solomon Islands. I know this would be a lot of work for the devs, and contrary to popular belief there is a lot documentation and source material for all these planes out there you just gotta dig for it. I've been sort of compiling a large list of websites, docs, and books for a while when I'm in the mood, but am loathe to push my agenda by posting all this info about my pet subject for the "next" BoX because I know the devs are always busy working to make everything in this sim better and don't need to be pushed any harder than they already are. I just like to drop an occasional reminder that there are a few of us that would like to see the Pacific from the air especially while on the tail of an enemy aircraft.

 

Sidenote: Spitfires, mostly mark V's were present at Darwin early on and in New Guinea.  

 

Currently reading Eric Hammel's  Aces against Japan: The American Aces Speak Vol.1 again.

 

For a very interesting discussion of the A6M# Zero, development, combat tactics, and it's adversaries give this youtube vid a view: Drachinifel: The A6m Naval Carrier Fighter - Zero or Hero? 

 

 

Post here: 

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/106-pacific-theater-discussion-and-assistance/

 

It's the right place for that research and it should not feel like pushing your agenda.

[Props]

Quite right Jade_Monkey. I got carried away and stand corrected, my bad.

[Angry_Kitten]

if we can only get the 50s switched out with 4 Breda 12mm