How to master rudder and stabilizer? (Bf-109 F4)

[KylerHolland]

Hello, pilots!

 

So, I always fly Bf-109 F4 and I try to get very familiar with this aircraft. I know, a good way is to practice in a free flight doing diving, some other maneuvers, corner speed turns, etc.

 

Two my main weak points is ruddering and stabilizer. Lets start with stabilizer first.

 

Normally, I use stabilizer in three situations:

1. When I take off I set it to +1. It is not necessary but that is what the take off tutorial says.

2. When I am landing I set it between -2 and -3. It kinda helps to perform accurate landing.

3. When I am on high speed in diving and the dive starts to get out of control a set stabilizer to a maximum negative position in order to help me get out of dive and not to hit the ground.

 

All the other time I set it to +2 as I find this position the most comfortable for horizontal flying.

 

And that is it. So, are there more ways I can use the stabilizer?

I do not use this in combat because it totally messes up my control of the aircraft. I do not understand an advice "Use stabilizer in combat because it helps aiming".

 

===

 

Now I would like to talk about rudder.

 

I have pedals. When I am not in combat I try to keep my eyes on the Turn and Bank indicator. I try to keep the ball right in the middle. When I practice any kind of maneuver half of my attention is on the ball as I try in keep it in place in order to perform every maneuver with maximum effectiveness. I just hope it will go to my muscle memory soon or later, so I will perform maneuvers without looking at the ball and just push the pedals to a certain position where I know the ball will stay in the middle. Am I doing my learning right?

 

My problem with rudder is that in combat it is impossible to watch the ball as I have to control my enemy as well as my surroundings. When I give a glance at the ball it usually out of center more or less. Like 80% of the time the ball is not in the center. Is it normal? I mean do aces always keep the ball in the center when they are in combat? How are they able to do it?

[ZachariasX]

31 minutes ago, KylerHolland said:

And that is it. So, are there more ways I can use the stabilizer?

As 1GCACP we can make our life easy. I mapped the stabylo to a thumb wheel on the throttle quadrant. What I do is almost continuous retrim. Takeoff I keep it in "center" and any 109 flys itself of the ground nicely. When going fast, you need almost full forward trim, meaning you know in adwance that you'll need that setting and just move it forward. To follow an aircraft in a turn when going fast, I trim back before pulling the stick back, making me push forward a bit to compensate, but then I can pull considerably on the stick. Same if I enter a defensive scissor, I trim far back while throttling back.

 

I'd always trim for what you'd do next when maneuvering. When cruising, immediately trim for hands of flight. You gain speed considerably by not having an angle between stabylo and rudder.

 

39 minutes ago, KylerHolland said:

My problem with rudder is that in combat it is impossible to watch the ball as I have to control my enemy as well as my surroundings

It is a problem now and it was much more so back then. That is why most of the rookies flew sideways to have themselves shot down.

 

Two things: First, the ball is a very sensitive instrument. It it is slightly off, you still have a small angle that in maneuvers should concern you less than having proper aim on your mark. As for flight, every plane has a set of pedal posiotions to keep it straight in certain flight configurations, say climbm cruise, dive, etc. Get used to always use the same settings for a flight configuration and you can memorize pedal postition. But you will always need to crosscheck, if you have time for that.

 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

32 minutes ago, KylerHolland said:

Hello, pilots!

 

So, I always fly Bf-109 F4 and I try to get very familiar with this aircraft. I know, a good way is to practice in a free flight doing diving, some other maneuvers, corner speed turns, etc.

 

Two my main weak points is ruddering and stabilizer. Lets start with stabilizer first.

 

Normally, I use stabilizer in three situations:

1. When I take off I set it to +1. It is not necessary but that is what the take off tutorial says.

2. When I am landing I set it between -2 and -3. It kinda helps to perform accurate landing.

3. When I am on high speed in diving and the dive starts to get out of control a set stabilizer to a maximum negative position in order to help me get out of dive and not to hit the ground.

 

All the other time I set it to +2 as I find this position the most comfortable for horizontal flying.

 

And that is it. So, are there more ways I can use the stabilizer?

I do not use this in combat because it totally messes up my control of the aircraft. I do not understand an advice "Use stabilizer in combat because it helps aiming".

 

===

 

Now I would like to talk about rudder.

 

I have pedals. When I am not in combat I try to keep my eyes on the Turn and Bank indicator. I try to keep the ball right in the middle. When I practice any kind of maneuver half of my attention is on the ball as I try in keep it in place in order to perform every maneuver with maximum effectiveness. I just hope it will go to my muscle memory soon or later, so I will perform maneuvers without looking at the ball and just push the pedals to a certain position where I know the ball will stay in the middle. Am I doing my learning right?

 

My problem with rudder is that in combat it is impossible to watch the ball as I have to control my enemy as well as my surroundings. When I give a glance at the ball it usually out of center more or less. Like 80% of the time the ball is not in the center. Is it normal? I mean do aces always keep the ball in the center when they are in combat? How are they able to do it?

 

It depends on how you use the stabilizer and how you define "combat", really.  A simple 6 o'clock bounce on a straight and level enemy is combat, just as a turning G pulling knife fight is as well.  Simple on-6 bounces can be aided by fine-controlling how fast the nose pitches up or down so that your first rounds drop onto the target or fly up into him, depending on the situation.  

Turning fights need a lot more care.  Too much added or taken away at the wrong time will bleed your energy immensely.

 

RL pilots have the "seat of the pants" feel for flying.  You literally feel a lot of what the plane is doing through your butt in the seat. They usually can feel if the plane is sliding to one side without looking at the ball as much.  

For the 109 F4, around 450kph cruise will keep the ball centered without need for rudder.  

Sometimes, uncoordinated skidding with the rudder is useful, especially in defensive flying, but you really have to be careful because it will bleed energy more quickly than other maneuvers. 

[busdriver]

18 hours ago, KylerHolland said:

And that is it. So, are there more ways I can use the stabilizer?

I do not use this in combat because it totally messes up my control of the aircraft. I do not understand an advice "Use stabilizer in combat because it helps aiming".

 

Well, if you are dropping bombs, the RL advice is to trim nose down for the dive. How much? This depends on how steep of a dive angle you're using and how fast you might be flying when you recover (pull out of the dive). You 109 guys accelerate pretty fast going downhill and as you know can exceed your elevator authority (find you can't pull out) without a bunch of nose up trim. Why nose down trim for bombing? Since the airplane will seek the airspeed it was trimmed for hands off flying, nose down trim helps to prevent a banana pass.

 

What's a banana pass? See an exaggerated example for yourself. Trim full nose up while maintaining 400 km/h at an altitude of 3000 meters, roll into a dive and put your pipper on a target (make sure you're now wing level). Look at your airspeed when you realize that you cannot hold the pipper on the target with full forward stick (and full nose up trim). If viewed from the side (profile view) you would see your flightpath arc upward away from the ground...this is a banana pass. Repeat this test (400 km/h at 3000 meters) with neutral stab trim and again with "some" nose down trim. You will find in order to become a proficient Jagdbomberpilot you will need to limit your airspeed and dive angle to get accurate bombs and prevent banana passes.

 

Another RL fighter pilot travelling tip is to fly around with a bit of nose down trim. Why? The airplane accelerates best at zero g. In RL we talked about relaxing the back pressure or "bunting" to a "light in the seat" sensation. This bunt would put us at less than 1 g (close enough to zero) helping us accelerate. As a 1GCCFP, you do not have this feedback, but you can mimic the technique.

 

I respectfully suggest you ignore the notion that too much or too little stab trim will bleed energy immensely.

 

18 hours ago, KylerHolland said:

Now I would like to talk about rudder.

 

I have nothing to add to your current technique and desire to get a certain degree of muscle memory working for you. I look at the ball periodically, but I am most interested in centering the ball when I'm about to drop a bomb or squeeze the trigger trying to kill something. 

Edited March 17, 2020 by busdriver

[SCG_OpticFlow]

23 hours ago, KylerHolland said:

Hello, pilots!

 

So, I always fly Bf-109 F4 and I try to get very familiar with this aircraft. I know, a good way is to practice in a free flight doing diving, some other maneuvers, corner speed turns, etc.

 

Two my main weak points is ruddering and stabilizer. Lets start with stabilizer first.

 

Normally, I use stabilizer in three situations:

1. When I take off I set it to +1. It is not necessary but that is what the take off tutorial says.

2. When I am landing I set it between -2 and -3. It kinda helps to perform accurate landing.

3. When I am on high speed in diving and the dive starts to get out of control a set stabilizer to a maximum negative position in order to help me get out of dive and not to hit the ground.

 

All the other time I set it to +2 as I find this position the most comfortable for horizontal flying.

 

And that is it. So, are there more ways I can use the stabilizer?

I do not use this in combat because it totally messes up my control of the aircraft. I do not understand an advice "Use stabilizer in combat because it helps aiming".

 

===

 

Now I would like to talk about rudder.

 

I have pedals. When I am not in combat I try to keep my eyes on the Turn and Bank indicator. I try to keep the ball right in the middle. When I practice any kind of maneuver half of my attention is on the ball as I try in keep it in place in order to perform every maneuver with maximum effectiveness. I just hope it will go to my muscle memory soon or later, so I will perform maneuvers without looking at the ball and just push the pedals to a certain position where I know the ball will stay in the middle. Am I doing my learning right?

 

My problem with rudder is that in combat it is impossible to watch the ball as I have to control my enemy as well as my surroundings. When I give a glance at the ball it usually out of center more or less. Like 80% of the time the ball is not in the center. Is it normal? I mean do aces always keep the ball in the center when they are in combat? How are they able to do it?

 

On the trim stab:

• I have the trim on a joystick hat under my thumb. I use it constantly for small adjustments.
• In a fight it helps to use the stab to unload the stick for two reasons: first it's easier to aim (especially if you use a stick with a heavy spring) and second the plane is supposedly producing less drag (although I haven't measured that).
• For landing, I use full nose up stab trim, it easier to feel the speed that way without looking at the instruments. The moment the nose starts to drop (with flaps/gear down), you're just above the stall speed.
• For climb, I use the stab to control the speed (with constant throttle). If the speed goes up, I raise the nose a bit to slow down.

On the rudder:

• The best way to build muscle memory is to fly the same aircraft.
• You can become better with practice. Good way to practice aircraft handling is formation flying (for example fly in a welded wing and strive to keep your position relative to the lead). If you fly alone, you can use the single player career to practice formation flying. During dogfight you'd be too busy with other considerations.
• The ball can be slightly off center without noticeable drag.
• Aces don't keep the ball in the center all the time and rarely look at the instruments because they're busy looking outside. Just watch some youtube clips, for example  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqpEet3HkKM
• The rudder on 109 helps a lot with roll, practice using both rudder and unloaded stick to roll the aircraft (while trying to keep the ball in the center).

[ZachariasX]

9 hours ago, busdriver said:

I respectfully suggest you ignore the notion that too much or too little stab trim will bleed energy immensely.

You're sooo real life pilot, man. ?

 

Here, the G-6 on combat power, full down trim. 488 km/h. Note that the stab is flush at that speed.

Spoiler

 

Trimming full nose up trim, we slow down to 466 km/h:

Spoiler

 

At full power, the difference is even larger than those 22 km/h. Compared to what you'd gain by doing this:

9 hours ago, busdriver said:

This bunt would put us at less than 1 g (close enough to zero) helping us accelerate.

our dear in game 109 has a drag chute deployed when trying to trade discreton for heroism. At least, on the MP servers where easy engine management is enforced, the Tempest will mostly fly with open radiator hence they are slow as well.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

10 hours ago, busdriver said:

 

 

I respectfully suggest you ignore the notion that too much or too little stab trim will bleed energy immensely.

 

 

This almost slipped past me.  Clever. 

 

At least in-game when 109 pilots attempt to adjust stabilizer to augment their climbs, dives, loops and turns in heavy maneuvering fights, bad technique will certainly kill the energy.  

This is the context I wrote the operative sentences in:

 

On 3/16/2020 at 7:00 AM, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

 

Turning fights need a lot more care.  Too much added or taken away at the wrong time will bleed your energy immensely.

 

 The statement is correct and I stand by it. 

 

In the past, you've questioned my "credibility" as even a sim pilot.  I question your reading comprehension abilities.  

[busdriver]

@ZachariasX very nice demo in straight an level. 

 

Now repeat your experiment in a simulation of a turning fight, you know, cruise at 488+ km/h and get wrapped up in a sustained turn and perhaps a scissors. Don't pull the power, just leave it there. While you're pulling on the pole sustaining g, run the stab trim full up and down. Compare that airspeed decay over time with simply leaving the trim set and sustaining a turn or scissoring. I'm particularly interested in your results for that speed regime where I dare say most 1GCCFPs fly during a turning fight (except apparently for @69th_Mobile_BBQ who was convinced your demo is proof). If indeed you are convinced the cycling the stab trim while operating around corner velocity in a turning fight is an effective speedbrake, then I suspect you have found a game exploit rather than proof of the claim by gentleman from LA (lower Alabama).

 

On 3/16/2020 at 6:00 AM, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

Turning fights need a lot more care.  Too much added or taken away at the wrong time will bleed your energy immensely.

 

Sigh...if you are hanging your hat on the demo by my friend @ZachariasX you still do not understand. If your notion of a turning fight involves airspeeds above 400 km/h when corner velocity is a nominal ~370 km/h, there is no amount of book learning or RL experience that can educate you. I don't know how to help any 1GCCFP that thinks in those terms. As a Jurassic era RL fighter pilot, we were taught to recognize speed regimes. In a common expression of the day, guys that were slow to understand this (in the heat of the battle) were jokingly referred to as "all d*ck and no forehead." These are power limited airplanes, so if what you claim is accurate then one would simply reverse the stab trim and gain energy. But even you (I hope) won't sit there and claim that happens under g in a turning fight. I would suggest, that the energy bleed is a function of the g load and where your current airspeed is on the Ps (P sub s) curve.

 

The game is not a high fidelity sim in all regimes. Fly an approach, gear and full flaps, just above stall speed. Put your feet flat on the floor. At some point execute a go around at full power while leaving your feet flat on the floor. I'd be willing to bet that even you can easily climb out with just a small amount of aileron, no rudder, and maintain your heading. As a RL pilot, I would not tell a 1GCCFP that this is how real airplanes work. Apparently you would...and thus I genuinely suggest consumers take your advice with a very large grain of salt or simply ignore it. It doesn't suggest that I think you're a bad person, I simply don't consider you as a reliable source of air combat insight. So yes, I don't consider you credible. If you and I were in the same room and you told me the sky was blue...I would instinctively doubt you. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by busdriver

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, busdriver said:

If indeed you are convinced the cycling the stab trim while operating around corner velocity in a turning fight is an effective speedbrake,

No. All I said is when you are running, you are most likely too slow and deducting another 30 km/h or so betrays you of the feeling that you might just make it because that russian-biased Yak (Edit: it is and will always be by forum definition.) will ZAP you right away instead of with its third attempt to hit you.

 

In turning fights, I trim such that I am able to pull whatever maneuver I want to do and don't care about the "speed brake". I dive on someone making a gentle turn, it trim nose up and push forward to prepare myself to get more alpha. When I acellerate, i set trim all forward to mak ethe shallow nose down as you described. I mapped the stab on the thumb wheel and I use it as often as the elevator.

 

Although it is a potent aircraft, i really dislike the 109 (not the Emil though). It requires much more foresight in a fight than most planes, even more than the 190 as you cannot do snapshots like that one. But I am bad with either plane.

Edited March 17, 2020 by ZachariasX

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

2 hours ago, busdriver said:

@ZachariasX very nice demo in straight an level. 

 

Now repeat your experiment in a simulation of a turning fight, you know, cruise at 488+ km/h and get wrapped up in a sustained turn and perhaps a scissors. Don't pull the power, just leave it there. While you're pulling on the pole sustaining g, run the stab trim full up and down. Compare that airspeed decay over time with simply leaving the trim set and sustaining a turn or scissoring. I'm particularly interested in your results for that speed regime where I dare say most GCCFPs fly during a turning fight (except apparently for @69th_Mobile_BBQ who was convinced your demo is proof). If indeed you are convinced the cycling the stab trim while operating around corner velocity in a turning fight is an effective speedbrake, then I suspect you have found a game exploit rather than proof of the claim by gentleman from LA (lower Alabama).

 

 

Sigh...if you are hanging your hat on the demo by my friend @ZachariasX you still do not understand. If your notion of a turning fight involves airspeeds above 400 km/h when corner velocity is a nominal ~270 km/h, there is no amount of book learning or RL experience that can educate you. I don't know how to help any 1GCCFP that thinks in those terms. As a Jurassic era RL fighter pilot, we were taught to recognize speed regimes. In a common expression of the day, guys that were slow to understand this (in the heat of the battle) were jokingly referred to as "all d*ck and no forehead." These are power limited airplanes, so if what you claim is accurate then one would simply reverse the stab trim and gain energy. But even you (I hope) won't sit there and claim that happens under g in a turning fight. I would suggest, that the energy bleed is a function of the g load and where your current airspeed is on the Ps (P sub s) curve.

 

The game is not a high fidelity sim in all regimes. Fly an approach, gear and full flaps, just above stall speed. Put your feet flat on the floor. At some point execute a go around at full power while leaving your feet flat on the floor. I'd be willing to bet that even you can easily climb out with just a small amount of aileron, no rudder, and maintain your heading. As a RL pilot, I would not tell a 1GCCFP that this is how real airplanes work. Apparently you would...and thus I genuinely suggest consumers take your advice with a very large grain of salt or simply ignore it. It doesn't suggest that I think you're a bad person, I simply don't consider you as a reliable source of air combat insight. So yes, I don't consider you credible. If you and I were in the same room and you told me the sky was blue...I would instinctively doubt you. 

 

OK, in order for me to even consider what you're saying, I would appreciate if you'd define some things.

1.) I am unfamiliar with the term "1GCCFP".  

2.) Who is the "gentleman from Lower Alabama" ?    Did Forrest Gump discover flight simming and IL-2?

 3.) You assume that whether or not I watched Zach's videos, I expressly based my conclusions on that. Why? 

4.) In the first paragraph, are you claiming bad technique is irrelevant or possibly exploitable as an advantage? 

5.) When was the "Jurrassic era" for fighter pilots?  Seriously, I don't know your background, jokes about putting a saddle on a Pterodactyl aside. 

6.) In the second paragraph, you assume what I believe and try to extrapolate a scenario that fits your narrative and discredits me based on my 2 sentences.  

7.) In the third paragraph, you do nearly the exact same thing, except this time you outright create a scenario you can use  and project an assumption of what my response would be and what I would definitively say to others about it concerning the "accuracy to RL" of it all.  Why? 

 

How do you assume that you can create a scenario I had no agency in and then project that I would definitively react a certain way based on the very little that you know about me?

Do you assume that people will just side with you and say to themselves, "Oh that Mobile_BBQ, he thinks it's the wrong way before he's even been asked about it because BusDriver says so?"

 

Here's a piece of advice:  
Person A cannot discredit Person B.  Person B must discredit themselves and then Person A must find, and provide proof.  The alternative is that Person B obviously discredits themselves on a large enough public scale, thus eliminating the need for Person A to "gather and report".

 

If person A manufactures a scenario and subsequently, also manufactures Person B's incorrect response to said scenario for purposes of discrediting them in front of the public, therefore providing false proof, that's a type of strawman.  

A discerning member of the public and also Person B would be in the right to tell Person A to be sure to set that strawman afire before they shove it up...  In this case, I am Person B.

 

I gotta tell ya, Busso,  something about these kind of behaviors you're putting forward is giving me the impression that you might not be someone to take at face value either.  

But, then again, I always imagined RL fighter pilots to be much more adept at "4D chess" and less interested in "2D checkers" in their responses to social situations and small conflicts of view.  It's not uncommon in this world for privates to talk like lieutenants and lieutenants to talk like captains when they have their civvies on.  

[busdriver]

@69th_Mobile_BBQ, thanks for your insight.

[DD_Arthur]