New DM

[J2_Bidu]

I'd like to propose a criteria for establishing when the damage model is finally "correct".

 

Certainly there are a few possibilities. My idea is simple in concept, not so easy in execution. I believe, despite their general preferences right now, most people will accept it as correct when this happens:

 

=> The statistical distribution of the ways planes are shot down roughly matches what is written in historical accounts.

 

So I believe for this purpose it would be interesting to gather as many descriptions of a plane being shot down and see hot it fits into general categories, the following being examples:

1. Plane fell out of control (pilot kill, spin, but probably plane not falling apart)
2. Plane flipped over and went into a dive (pilot kill?)
3. Plane caught fire
4. Plane lost wing(s)

 

[JG1_Rotermann]

you want screenshots and video?

[No.23_Gaylion]

I'm willing to bet someone has done this in the last hundred years.

 

The hard part is finding that person's work.

[No.23_Triggers]

52 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

Certainly there are a few possibilities. My idea is simple in concept, not so easy in execution. I believe, despite their general preferences right now, most people will accept it as correct when this happens:

It's as Talbot says...I've got a couple big books on listed victories for the Germans and the French in WW1, but it only goes as in-depth as "Destroyed", "In Flames" or "Forced to Land"., with the usual "KIA", "MIA", "Wounded" etc etc etc for aircrew. Naturally, "Destroyed" could mean many things...

 

...if you had the time, you could sift through pilot memoirs and create a spreadsheet of all the different types reported destroyed and how they were reported destroyed...I might consider doing that with Mac's memoir (although I expect I'd get bored about 15 mins in) 

Edited May 2, 2020 by US93_Larner

[J2_Bidu]

9 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:

It's as Talbot says...I've got a couple big books on listed victories for the Germans and the French in WW1, but it only goes as in-depth as "Destroyed", "In Flames" or "Forced to Land"., with the usual "KIA", "MIA", "Wounded" etc etc etc for aircrew. Naturally, "Destroyed" could mean many things...

 

...if you had the time, you could sift through pilot memoirs and create a spreadsheet of all the different types reported destroyed and how they were reported destroyed...I might consider doing that with Mac's memoir (although I expect I'd get bored about 15 mins in) 

 

High in the Empty Blue goes beyond that in description, but it's a fair amount of work to go through them all. I might try too.

Destroyed does not say much, but presumably excludes "Forced to Land". "In Flames" and "Forced to Land" however seem pretty sufficient to me. Means no wing rip, and no pilot kill (as main crash reason; presumably he dies as consequence).

39 minutes ago, -332FG-REDMAN said:

you want screenshots and video?

 

Won't accept less than 1080p. Please upload.

 

 

Quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_victory_standards_of_World_War_I

 

The [french] victories certified generally fell into one of four categories of destruction

1. An enemy aircraft independently witnessed falling in flames;
2. An enemy aircraft independently witnessed crashing to earth;
3. An enemy aircraft independently witnessed disintegrating while in flight;
4. An enemy aircraft falling into captivity behind the battle lines of the French or their allies.

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by J2_Bidu

[No.23_Gaylion]

Maybe figure out how many folks here have that book and assign different chapters so it's not all one man's work?

Edited May 2, 2020 by US213_Talbot

[J2_Oelmann]

1 hour ago, J2_Bidu said:

I'd like to propose a criteria for establishing when the damage model is finally "correct".

 

Certainly there are a few possibilities. My idea is simple in concept, not so easy in execution. I believe, despite their general preferences right now, most people will accept it as correct when this happens:

 

=> The statistical distribution of the ways planes are shot down roughly matches what is written in historical accounts.

 

So I believe for this purpose it would be interesting to gather as many descriptions of a plane being shot down and see hot it fits into general categories, the following being examples:

1. Plane fell out of control (pilot kill, spin, but probably plane not falling apart)
2. Plane flipped over and went into a dive (pilot kill?)
3. Plane caught fire
4. Plane lost wing(s)

 

"Under the guns of the red baron" analyzes all kills from MvR. Most of them fall in category 1 and 2 but I might check again. Some combat reports in it did had wings falling off, but not much if I remember right.

[JG1_Rotermann]

28 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

High in the Empty Blue goes beyond that in description, but it's a fair amount of work to go through them all. I might try too.

Destroyed does not say much, but presumably excludes "Forced to Land". "In Flames" and "Forced to Land" however seem pretty sufficient to me. Means no wing rip, and no pilot kill (as main crash reason; presumably he dies as consequence).

 

Won't accept less than 1080p. Please upload.

 

 

 

That's no problem I'll sort thru some of the vids I got tomorrow. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 minute ago, J2_Oelmann said:

"Under the guns of the red baron" analyzes all kills from MvR. Most of them fall in category 1 and 2 but I might check again. Some combat reports in it did had wings falling off, but not much if I remember right.

Unreasonable made spreadsheet analysis about MvR kills, look for it or ask him.

[J5_Gamecock]

1 hour ago, US93_Larner said:

Naturally, "Destroyed" could mean many things...

 

 True... like anything other than "Forced to land"

[kendo]

Not sure Von Richthofen's kills are going to be representative of the general situation. Would expect more accurate gunnery from such an ace, targeted on pilot and engine. 

[emely]

Guys, are you still tired of discussing all this?  I’m tired, like playing this fake under the flight simulator.  The RoF was balanced as a game, and this set of flying circus firewood was generally divorced from reality.  Today ended Bloody April.  I have never seen the worst event!  With great difficulty and thanks to patience and duty to the team, I took part in this from beginning to end.  The organizers tried their best, the pilots came and flew.  But nothing could fix this shitty DM and air defense from the second world war.  Today the last shot was made, cheers! ?

For a minimum of a week I will take a break, because I already want to puke, because of all the features of this circus, so beloved by many.

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

One odd note - even with the current DM, the SE5a's wings seem less likely to snap in FC than in ROF. I played some ROF multiplayer this weekend, and promptly snapped the SE5a's wings without any damage doing stuff I do in FC with the same plane. (The Spad VII 180 though... lively little bugger).

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

3 hours ago, emely said:

Guys, are you still tired of discussing all this?  I’m tired, like playing this fake under the flight simulator.  The RoF was balanced as a game, and this set of flying circus firewood was generally divorced from reality.  Today ended Bloody April.  I have never seen the worst event!  With great difficulty and thanks to patience and duty to the team, I took part in this from beginning to end.  The organizers tried their best, the pilots came and flew.  But nothing could fix this shitty DM and air defense from the second world war.  Today the last shot was made, cheers! ?

For a minimum of a week I will take a break, because I already want to puke, because of all the features of this circus, so beloved by many.

 

I didn't realize what a drag this game was becoming for me until I decided to step away and do other things.

 

I'll be back when they fix all this nonsense.  DM, disappearing planes, all of it.  Maybe.  Either way, the game will run its course, whatever that may be, just fine without me.

[emely]

10 hours ago, Krispy_Duck said:

One odd note - even with the current DM, the SE5a's wings seem less likely to snap in FC than in ROF. 

Yes, but at least he knows how to fly in RoF!

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

12 hours ago, Krispy_Duck said:

The Spad VII 180 though... lively little bugger

That spad was and I guess still is the better spad of them all, Can climb like no other in ROF. Even the D7F couldn't out climb the 180 hp. And you could even do a better Plank turn in that thing.

[J2_Bidu]

Here's the aggregated list of Ball's victories, by type of kill. This includes things he did not claim. Reference: "Albert Ball VC" by Chaz Bowyer.

"Crashed" is unspecified, but apparently does not include "driven down", "forced to land" or "out of control", which probably means either a) the pilot was killed and crashed into the ground or b) plane was destroyed in the air (but seems less likely to me).

23 Crashed

22 Forced to land

8 Driven down

6 Out of Control

5 In flames
1 Shot down (unspecified)
1 Driven down under control (!)

1 Gunner killed or forced to parachute

 

Any ideas? I wonder if this meets your expectations.

Edited May 5, 2020 by J2_Bidu

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

 

On 4/21/2020 at 2:43 PM, J5_Baeumer said:

Has anyone done any analysis and likely necessary interpolation of historical data to propose:

% of planes were downed due to critical structural damage not the result of any of the causes listed below but by enemy aircraft ammunition.

 

% of planes downed due to mid air collision.  Likely machine crashed with pilot lost.

 

% of planes downed due to loss of control i.e. control surfaces/wires damaged. Potential to land out. Likely machine crashed with pilot lost X% of time.

 

% of planes downed due to fuel tank explosion/fire. Pilot and machine lost.

 

% of planes downed due to pilot shot/wounded/killed. Machine and pilot lost.

 

% of planes downed due to critical engine or related system hit.  Likely landed out; possible pilot shot after plane disabled resulting in loss of machine and pilot.

 

% of planes lost due to pilot error. I.e. landing and stalls. Machine loss and high risk of pilot death.

 

I would guess that the above is close to the order of reasons for lost planes from least common to most common.  

 

 

 

 

[J2_Bidu]

43 minutes ago, J5_Baeumer said:

 

 

 

From what I've seen so far such detail is not available. The descriptions provided in "High in the Empty Blue" so far (page 47) follow into these categories of mine (I try to avoid ambiguity or assumption at all times). I'm only counting deaths in combat.

 

Out of control	Out of control & seen to crash	Went down (unspecified)	Destroyed (unspecified)	Crashed (unspecified)	Crashed (pilot lived)	Shot down (not destroyed midair)	Flew into ground / pilot killed before crash	Flamer	Turned over
5	1	2	1	5	1	1	9	2	5

 

 

P.S.: Actually things are not at all as I described. The information above is correct for the descriptions of enemies shot down. There is, however, extensive information in the appendixes on the fate of apparently all the planes assigned to the 56th Squadron, and apart from some cryptic notes I don't understand (ex: "to 1AD")  you can see a lot of reasons why planes were lost. Of course when pilots were killed the explanation is more obscure (ex: "Pilot KIA. SOS" or "Pilot POW. SOS") than when they came back and lost the plane. still, if pilot was POW you can reasonably assume the plane did not disintegrate in the air, or lost wings.

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by J2_Bidu
clarification

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

My point really, is that right now the highest death rate is due to wings falling off which is "likely" the least cause of death in real life.   Right now with the DM it is the highest cause.  The list is reversed by the DM.   I am proposing that the highest death rate for pilots was from training or other pilot errors, likely followed by shooting or critical wounds to the pilot that result in a pilot error.  Read the last line of my post, and review the order in which the "seven fatalities" are listed.   It forms the basis for a critical evaluation of the DM.  The DM as currently employed in 4.005 is backwards.   There should be lots of mechs/engine and related system damage/failures followed by pilot hits, followed by structural failures (but only after a fair bit of damage to wings) and pilot error in hamfisting the damaged plane around rather than disengaging at once to go R/R/R.

Edited May 5, 2020 by J5_Baeumer

[J2_Bidu]

4 minutes ago, J5_Baeumer said:

My point really, is that right now the highest death rate is due to wings falling off which is "likely" the least cause of death in real life.   Right now with the DM it is the highest cause.  The list is reversed by the DM.   I am proposing that the highest death rate for pilots was from training or other pilot errors, likely followed by shooting or critical wounds to the pilot that result in a pilot error.  Read the last line of my post, and review the order in which the "seven fatalities" are listed.   It forms the basis for a critical evaluation of the DM.  The DM as currently employed in 4.005 is backwards.   There should be lots of mechs/engine and related system damage/failures followed by pilot hits, followed by structural failures (but only after a fair bit of damage to wings) and pilot error in hamfisting the damaged plane around rather than disengaging at once to go R/R/R.

 

Exactly my thoughts. This explains why "out of control", "flew into ground" or "turned over" (in the air) account for so many cases. I don't think anyone would describe in such a way a plane which had lost its wings.

[AnPetrovich]

On 5/5/2020 at 10:33 PM, J5_Baeumer said:

I am proposing that the highest death rate for pilots was from training or other pilot errors, likely followed by shooting or critical wounds to the pilot that result in a pilot error.

Let's think about it and just leave the DM outside of this topic for a few minutes.
I suggest doing a mental experiment.

Suppose there are 100 young guys who have never flown any flight simulator. They receive a ground training and a "flight" training on the FC with instructors, exactly the same way real students in real life would get. No one is allowed to do any of "fatal mistakes" or even to be involved into an "accident" during this training. The first question is: how many of those guys will complete this training with no accidents? But, let's assume that all of these 100 guys will become "pilots" successfully. Then my next question is: after they start fighting against each other in the virtual sky, what are the most frequent reasons of their "death" would you expect? How many guys will "die" because of "lost of control"? Even taking into account that the bet is not their life!

Do you follow my thought?

You, guys, have THOUSANDS of hours of "airtime". You have no fear to die. You did crazy stuff in the virtual sky plenty of  times, which a real WW1 pilot would never has done in the real sky. How could you compare your experience with real WW1 pilots? Do you still really expect that the most frequent reason of crashes in the GAME would be the same as in the real life, such as "lost of control"?

 

How often you guys crash in the game because of losing control nowadays?
Do you think that crash because of the "pilot's death" or "engine damage" or "fire" or "airframe damage" should be even less frequent ? 

By the way, I'm not sure I have balls (sorry for my English) to loop a damaged airplane (after it got hits) at few hundreds feet above the ground, remembering that this airplane is designed using "sticks and ropes"... Maybe I'm not a bold pilot.  Are you?  (Just a joke)

[No.23_Gaylion]

28 minutes ago, AnPetrovich said:

By the way, I'm not sure I have balls (sorry for my English) to loop a damaged airplane (after it got hits) at few hundreds feet above the ground, remembering that this airplane is designed using "sticks and ropes"... Maybe I'm not a bold pilot.  Are you?  (Just a joke)

 

And this is one thing that I do like about this DM. People care about their plane more after hits and disengage or go towards home-sometimes.

[J2_Bidu]

25 minutes ago, AnPetrovich said:

You, guys, have THOUSANDS of hours of "airtime". You have no fear to die. You did crazy stuff in the virtual sky plenty of  times, which a real WW1 pilot would never has done in the real sky. How could you compare your experience with real WW1 pilots? Do you still really expect that the most frequent reason of crashes in the GAME would be the same as in the real life, such as "lost of control"?

 

How often you guys crash in the game because of losing control nowadays?
Do you think that crash because of the "pilot's death" or "engine damage" or "fire" or "airframe damage" should be even less frequent ? 

 

In general you are right saying many considerations of a real pilot do not worry our virtual pilot minds, unleass if you have a streak to cherish, maybe

 

Specifically in the OOC (out of control) category I believe this did not mean "pilot lost control of pkane due to incompetent flying", but rather "Plane was descending in a way consistent with pilot death ir incapacity or loss of control structures", which is rather different. It means both "he was shot down" and "plane was mostly not destroyed in the air".

 

So, I would actually expect a big proportion of such cases in the game,  I don't see a lack.of fear of death changing that significantly. A weaker plane structure, however, might significantly decrease this number and increase the vague "destroyed" or "crashed over <somewhere>"cases that occasionally showed ip in reports.

[No.23_Gaylion]

If only there were a group of individuals who were running a "game within the game" for the past, oh, 3 years, based on the parameters of the actual claiming system in place during WWI.

 

Ohhhhh Captain Larnerrrrrrr!!!!

@US93_Larner

 

Perhaps you could venture outside friendly lines for once? This seems like a perfect thread to adjutant the F out of.

Edited May 6, 2020 by US93_Talbot

[US103_Hunter]

Do the devs even play FC? Just put it back the way is was for WW1 planes. You shoot for meat and metal in the great war. I don't remember reading many accounts of pilots aiming for wings? It's pilot and engine!

 

Regards,

Hunter

[No.23_Triggers]

2 hours ago, US93_Talbot said:

Ohhhhh Captain Larnerrrrrrr!!!!

@US93_Larner

Adjutant services required? Gotcha. 

Some context for everyone else in the thread: 

Within the 3rd Pursuit Group we have our own little game-within-the-game on Thursdays, where we track pilot's scores and victories are awarded via After Action Reports and Confirmations, rather than Parser results. As the Adjutant, I am in charge of keeping track of, logging, and awarding or rejecting any reported victories. This includes how the EA was shot down!

I will note that, although the parser is not involved within our game, we still check track recordings, parsers, live streams, etc, after the reported kills have been "Confirmed". 

So, looking through my logs, we can get an idea of how the DM has affected the 'type' of kill that pilots are scoring: 

Taking pre-DM logs from February 27th and April 2nd, we see the following results (listed in the spoiler below). Both D.VIIs and D.VII Fs are listed as 'Fokker D7'.
 

Spoiler

27/02/20:
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Fokker Dr.I - Down in Flames
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Crashed on the Ground
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed

02/04/20:
Fokker D.VII - Down in Flames
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Halberstadt - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Halberstadt - Pilot Killed
Halberstadt - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed

Out of a pool of 20 victories, that makes a total of:
-17 Pilot Kills
-2 Down in Flames
-1 Crashed on the Ground 

Now taking post-DM logs from April 17th - April 30th, we get the following results: 

 

Spoiler

17/04/20:
Fokker D.VII - Wings Collapsed
Fokker D.VII - Down In Flames
Fokker D.VII - Wings Collapsed

24/04/20:
Fokker D.VII - Wings Collapsed
Fokker D.VII - Wings Collapsed
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Forced to Land
Fokker D.VII - Wings Collapsed
Fokker D.VII - Wings Collapsed
Fokker Dr.I - Wings Collapsed
Fokker D.VII - Pilot Killed
Fokker D.VII - Wings Collapsed
Fokker Dr.I - Crashed on the Ground
Fokker Dr.I - Pilot Killed

30/04/20:
Halberstadt - Wings Collapsed
Albatros DV - Wings Collapsed
Albatros DV - Wings Collapsed
Albatros DV - Crashed on the Ground

Out of a pool of 18 victories, that makes: 
-11 "Wing Kills" 
-3 Pilot Kills
-2 Crashed on the Ground
-1 Down in Flames
-1 Forced to Land

These victories were scored by the same group of pilots and all were scored in SPAD XIIIs. I also feel bold enough to say that the pilots scoring these victories are among some of the most accurate marksmen I've seen in FC, and are more than capable of scoring pilot hits (as the amount of pre-DM change pilot kills would suggest). This tells me two things: 

1) The structural strength of aircraft is drastically reduced (But we all knew this ?)
2) The new wounding system has actively made it harder to kill pilots, and by a fairly decent margin. 

Perhaps this post could offer a more practical 'report' for the Devs as to how the gameplay feels post-update! 

 

(P.S - there aren't as many post-DM logs, naturally, but I can grab a full list of air kills with reported 'type' of shoot-down if need be)

Edited May 7, 2020 by US93_Larner

[=RS=Stix_09]

On 5/7/2020 at 10:47 AM, AnPetrovich said:

By the way, I'm not sure I have balls (sorry for my English) to loop a damaged airplane (after it got hits) at few hundreds feet above the ground, remembering that this airplane is designed using "sticks and ropes"... Maybe I'm not a bold pilot.  Are you?  (Just a joke)

Could not agree more with this.

 

It's a virtual life,  ....  no question on that, pain and fear is not something many ppl like ?

I doubt many virtual pilots would have balls to even fly a ww1 biplane and do a loop IRL, let alone after being shot at and damaged, or wounded...

I can say personally I  may like a bit of fear at times, but not to the point I have a death wish...

From all accounts I've read and numbers killed it was a highly dangerous time and survive-ability was low (even for aces)

 

Fear can't be modeled in IL-2 GB. And it was a huge factor, so was cold , and fatigue, etc  etc.

 

 RE DM: My thoughts:

We will never have a 100% accurate DM , or even close to that IMHO. To compute that level of detail in real time and have a sim that performs is just not possible. (we can't model all those hitboxes even....)

 

Best we can hope for is something fun and somewhat believable (and that's is problem  that no one can agree upon, what is believable?

The DM will never be perfect or close to it, just a continual work in progress.. (so some may need to lower those expectations a little or always be upset)

I think the DM we have is very good, with some tweeks here and there always coming, it will never be "there".

 

I myself may never have said it publicly , so, .... I thank all involved for the work being done on this game, myself and I'm sure I speak for most people , (even when some get a bit "excited" or even heated in these discussions, because they do care) , we do appreciate the efforts and feedback (when you can spend your time) very much. The IL-2 GB series is a fantastic game/sim.

 

If you have not read the following posts (by AnPetrovich)  , please do so , it does answer many how's & whys, often things repeated in this topic.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09
links added

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

New DVII spars arriving at Boistrancourt.

 

[Garven]

2 minutes ago, J5_Klugermann said:

New DVII spars arriving at Boistrancourt.

 

Is that Rearden metal?

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

On 5/2/2020 at 7:45 AM, J2_Bidu said:

 

=> The statistical distribution of the ways planes are shot down roughly matches what is written in historical accounts.

 

 

 

Except the pilots here have several thousand more hours experience and lived lives than did those in historical accounts.  Our fights go differently just based on the sheer level of experience shared between the combatants.

 

It's likely that our outcomes would be quite different if every person who played the game was forced to uninstall after virtual death.

[J2_Bidu]

42 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

 

Except the pilots here have several thousand more hours experience and lived lives than did those in historical accounts.  Our fights go differently just based on the sheer level of experience shared between the combatants.

 

It's likely that our outcomes would be quite different if every person who played the game was forced to uninstall after virtual death.

 

You're right in some respects, of course.

But people at the time did not necessarily have the individualistic mind of nowadays, and they were compelled to do what they did by their orders. So fear had its place, surely. But it's not like they did what they wanted.

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by J2_Bidu