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Spotting improvements in the roadmap?

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Petrik,  there undoubtedly is a problem with close in spotting at the moment.  It’s just that the video you’ve posted does not seem to be a very good representation of it.

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I have laid out specific details as to why I believe that it is a valid example. So have others. 

If you can counter our points for point with logical thought out reasoning. I will not only listen, I will do my absolute damnedest to learn from what you are offering me. I am not an expert and I have just as much to learn as anybody.

If you cannot at least meet the time we have spent trying to put this information together with your own effort.. I don't know why you feel your opinion should be validated. 
 

10 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

It’s just that the video you’ve posted does not seem to be a very good representation of it.


Here is where your logic utterly fails. If I upload my own video it will look EXACTLY LIKE THIS. 

This is the EXACT behavior I am seeing in game when I play. Frame for frame. 

Others have attested to this fact as well.

So unless you are looking at my screen as I play.. How do you know what is an accurate representation of the bug I am encountering? 

There is an old saying: If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, looks like a duck.. It's probably a duck. 




 

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On 1/23/2020 at 3:55 PM, SeaW0lf said:

Here are a few examples (Ultra settings, 4AA, expert visibility) of how limited is my visibility at the Arras map in some situations that correspond to a big portion of our spatial perception. This is why planes comes from nowhere, and you have to add the fact that in-flight we are not just analyzing a screen as we are doing now, but managing all the aspects of combat and sometimes looking at the wrong direction, then you can discount a couple seconds as reflex, which will reduce these distances at least by a few hundred yards, which is already too close to call.

 

Best viewed in 1440p for me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These angles, horizontal and lateral passes at the same level or below the target (when you are above you are likely to see nothing against the ground) accounts for a big portion of our spatial perception*. In other words, I’m personally flying blind most of the time. We can count with flak, but what’s the point then? Better to enables icons, which then it is the same to say that we can’t play missions online.

 

*For who read about my experience spotting small choppers (Robinsons 44 for example) in Rio de Janeiro, yesterday I went for a even further vantage point (near the Sugar Loaf, noon, sky partially clouded), and I was spotting choppers and paragliders from 3.5km to 5.5km with no problems over the Christ the Redeemer. In fact the paragliders have a very thin profile, but I could see the half moon shape beyond 5km (they wore past the statue, from 4km to 5.5km away). when they banked, those things looked big in my field of view. Choppers also have a very clear signature against the blue sky, even past 5km. against the clouds they blend more over the dark patches due to lighting, but even then they were perfectly visible. I had no problems going from paragliders to choppers alternately without missing them. Mind you, this from an average distance of 4.5km.

Them videos say it all . Now go on YouTube and find videos from 2014 .

I don`t understand why some people defend any type of  game when its clearly has some issues  .

We should be talking to real pilots and taking their experiences .   

16 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

You took a print when he was zoomed in. That's not the problem. The plane had just merged with the terrain (another problem).

 

Then I think you did not quite get it. The problem is when he zooms out and the plane just vanishes from the screen. From 7:22 to 7:30 the contact disappears three times when he zooms out. 

 

Taking it frame by frame, here's what happens. So you can see that this is not a "YouTube" problem, but a game problem.

 

X3J6H5l.jpg

This is a game thing , this was also happening with ground targets . Last year ``Tanks or convoys would not come into view not unless you were right on top of them . The zoom in and out seems to effect the visibility ,  or a Pixel and none pixel .

Older flight sims like il-2-1946 didn't have these spotting issues , CLOD did to start with but was fixed . RoF even has no issues .

So its definitely the game engine , We all know that .

But what can be done to fix these issues . 

Cliff of Dover in the beginning added sun glare . You would see the sun shine off the cockpits surfaces and it worked , later came a fix were we could spot a pixel . 

Im not sure what they did but it worked . 

The problem im seeing at the moment is the target blends into the back ground and becomes invisible . the naked eye can track and pick up moving targets with ease and keep it tracked and also the mind can work out where in 3d space  the target will end up or its flight path  . 

At the moment you are fully zoomed in . if you zoom out you loose pixel . Must zoom back in fully to regain target . And stay fully zoomed in .

I hope that makes sense .

If you check six for one to two seconds you have the lost target when back too gun sight .  

Edited by KoN_
?
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i've been running into this a few times in my SP game. I think i had captured some pictures last weekend so i'll try to post what i have when i can. It seems difficult to reproduce. The only things i can say they seem to have in common is when partially zoomed in, maybe about 15-20% of the full zoom. The targets will be visible at 0% and then disappear, but then at higher levels reappear. 

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On 1/26/2020 at 12:06 PM, KoN_ said:

 

Thanks for your research.

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Here are some detailed information on the visibility expectations.

 

 

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I think this post by Jason sums it all up:

Yes they recognize the problem, they have yet to pin it down and as such cannot give a timeline on when it might be fixed. 

He asks respectfully to continue to make bug reports through the proper channels so the devs can continue to work on solving the issues. 
 



I think it's time to let this thread die. 

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On 1/25/2020 at 7:44 PM, SeaW0lf said:

 this is not a "YouTube" problem, but a game problem.

 

 

Definitely not a youtube problem 😄 

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Spotting and rendering is one big problem this game have!

 

Planes become invisible on short ranges, their camo being from same colour palette blending too well into the background....devs took RL data but didn't consider and include hardware limitation resulting in even less realism and even more frustration.

 

Ground vehicles and objects being invisible and disappearing in certain angles on very short distances.

This is an old bug/limitation being present for years so instead more collector fighters or another crucification on 3 titles they could should fix graphic engine and rendering.

 

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I have this problem too, I can clearly see Contacts like 10 Km away, but at middle/short distances the planes disappear..

I don't even see an very close Planes on my six while checking, like 2 km away I check and there's nothing...

WTF

 

Very annoying, gonna leave BoS ifthey don't change this thing, doing fighter trying to give it a little sense its impossible...

Only thing u can do its furball at low level which is a War Thunder thing certainly not an Il2 behavior...

 

 

I don't know if its my settings or maybe the new monitori at 21:9 1080p but its impossible.

Edited by VII.Racetrack

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S!

 

 The latest update SLIGHTLY made it better, but still planes are very hard to spot at closer ranges. Only in VR the pesky LaaLaas could not blend into forest as they stuck out as they should. 

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Show me a video of a plane disappearing when zooming in. I have never experienced this myself. And it needs to be in SP not MP because that could be a network issue. Much like stutters, I need to separate SP experiences from MP experiences. We have to be able to repeatedly replicate an issue to solve it.

 

Jason

 

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I am single-player only and also experience planes shrinking down to almost nothing as I zoom into them. Strange, but planes in the distance are easier to spot while I'm fully zoomed out than when I'm zoomed in.

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5 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

I am single-player only and also experience planes shrinking down to almost nothing as I zoom into them. Strange, but planes in the distance are easier to spot while I'm fully zoomed out than when I'm zoomed in.

 

Need video please.

 

Jason

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I am seeing better now. Two days i bought a LG ultrawide 29 WK500 with better contrast ratio and IPS. https://www.kabum.com.br/cgi-local/site/produtos/descricao_ofertas.cgi?codigo=102358&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjbSo4qvr5wIVl4WRCh0hqQglEAQYAiABEgJoLPD_BwE

 

After buying it this one, with 1ms (Motion Blur Reduction) time response, IPS, better contrast ratio, black stabilizer had their price lowered: https://www.kalunga.com.br/prod/monitor-led-29-ips-ultrawide-1ms-75hz-pro-gamer-29um69g-lg-cx-1-un/477104

 

Oh no...

 

p.s.: i would like a bigger ultrawide but my budget faints.

Edited by =BLW=Tales

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3 hours ago, unlikely_spider said:

I am single-player only and also experience planes shrinking down to almost nothing as I zoom into them. Strange, but planes in the distance are easier to spot while I'm fully zoomed out than when I'm zoomed in.

Is this with Alternate or Normal visibility?

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16 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Is this with Alternate or Normal visibility?

Yes, I have alternate visibility checked. I didn't know about that - I'll try with it off next time I'm playing.

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51 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

Yes, I have alternate visibility checked. I didn't know about that - I'll try with it off next time I'm playing.

 Turning alternate visibility off will fix the issue but planes will be harder to spot.

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On 2/24/2020 at 6:30 PM, =BLW=Tales said:

I am seeing better now. Two days i bought a LG ultrawide 29 WK500 with better contrast ratio and IPS. https://www.kabum.com.br/cgi-local/site/produtos/descricao_ofertas.cgi?codigo=102358&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjbSo4qvr5wIVl4WRCh0hqQglEAQYAiABEgJoLPD_BwE

 

After buying it this one, with 1ms (Motion Blur Reduction) time response, IPS, better contrast ratio, black stabilizer had their price lowered: https://www.kalunga.com.br/prod/monitor-led-29-ips-ultrawide-1ms-75hz-pro-gamer-29um69g-lg-cx-1-un/477104

 

Oh no...

 

p.s.: i would like a bigger ultrawide but my budget faints.

 

 

thats an issue dcs has, different monitor settings can affect how great/bad spotting is from an individual. I think they need to start by tweaking how they have their current smart scaling (alternative visibility) is, because at this current state no MP PvP server runs them as they see it very unrealistic.   

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On 1/26/2020 at 11:31 AM, Scrubs said:

That does not hold up against other artifacts and items on the screen. If fine detail is lost in part of the image it is lost over the entire image. 
 

 

The quote above was about whether parts of an image can drop out of videos due to YouTube compression.  Yes, they can.  YouTube compression operates on the differences from one frame to the next.  Each region of the image gets  a bandwidth budget for transmitting changes to that region since the last frame.   The very first frame is compressed to whatever level the available overall bandwidth requires.  If not much changes in the next frame, the budget can be used in transmitting finer detail, and so on over following frames.  If everything changes, you're back to first-frame compression.  So when bandwidth-constrained, static parts of the image over a few frames become sharper and sharper, moving parts are blurry, and at high compression quickly moving small objects can disappear completely.  The algorithm can decide to prioritize some other change in that region.  

What complicates this is that overall image quality goes up and down as well if you're bandwidth is fluctuating, but if you have reasonably stable but constrained bandwidth this region variation effect is very obvious.  

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Posted (edited)
On 1/20/2020 at 12:36 PM, Kataphrakt said:

Wow, not even rendered, and that's with me zooming in on the image. I can see the shape of the clouds behind where the 109 is supposed to be, but not the aircraft...  A Bf-109 with a wingspan of ~9.85m at a distance of 2.38km has an angular size of about 0.237 degrees. For reference: A 24" 1920x1080p monitor (since the picture provided is 1920x1080) has a pixel pitch of around 0.27mm. An observer sitting 0.5m away from said monitor sees each pixel with an angular size of 0.03 degrees, so there should be approximately 8 pixels showing the wingspan of the Bf-109. Even for a worse profile, the height of the 109 should be approximately 1 pixel at this distance. Even a 737 flying at an altitude of over 10,000m is fairly easy to spot and that has an angular size of 0.19 degrees, smaller than what this 109 could be perceived as. 

 

 

so, i painted about what it would look like if it was diving from from that distance and you can see nose and tail. amazing that's how it should appear. i made the wings 1 pixels, tail 2 and nose . interestingly enough, this is how spotting looked form me before the Implemented expert "blind mode" after people complained  

painted in 109.jpg

Edited by gimpy117
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3 hours ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

@Jason_Williams this is my video 
Contacts at medium distance almost disappear when apply zoom in

 

I have experienced something very strange and similar, but in regards to ships. When flying on Combat box, you could spot the ships from quite the distance.  While zoomed out, you could see them easily, just with no detail. When I zoomed in, you could still see the ships and more details, but at a certain point in the zoom, just before full zoom, the ships simply disappeared. Bringing back the zoom a small amount and they popped into view again. I have video of the incident but my upload speed is terrible so I will have to upload it overnight sometime.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

@Jason_Williams this is my video 
Contacts at medium distance almost disappear when apply zoom in

This is very common and happens all the time.

Edited by SCG_ErwinP
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For me what happens is that they does not disapear but when they are close they are just a pixel out of scale and when you zoom in just a little they become bigguer so you can see the shape of the plane. 

I noticed that people with big monitors and good resolution can spot contacts much better than people with small monitor like 23" 1080p.

 

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I also have a few videos with planes disappearing when you zoom in, mid zoom (checked in single player as well, not only in multiplayer), but this one here is another bug.

 

This is a multiplayer track with expert visibility (Jasta 5 Flugpark). When watching the track, the alternate visibility bug (planes disappearing in mid zoom) affects the track randomly, and I'm with alternate visibility disabled. So something within the engine is mixing both visibilities on my tracks. Then I went to watch another track and there was no alternate visibility bug. That’s a weird one.

 

As a side note, at least for me, the alternate visibility bug is not when you zoom in, but in mid zoom, so you have three different sizes in the same zoom. That’s when the teleporting begins. It is virtually unplayable for me.

 

I need to open a bug report, although I’m usually slammed in work (not retired yet) and I’m not sure when I’ll be able to do it.

 

best viewed for me in 1440p.

 

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Posted (edited)

OK, this one was in single player, Alternate Visibility enable. Track recorded today with Quick Mission, Ultra Settings, 4AA, TrackIR 5. Same problem, same bug. Planes are shrinking and some disappearing in mid zoom, and then ballooning up. In a target rich environment, planes seems to be teleporting, appearing and disappearing randomly, making it impossible to get any bearings on what's going on. I've seen some old veterans reporting the same problem in the past, but thankfully J5 does not use Alternate Visibility. Some WWII servers still use it, but I'm not sure why. I've seen people reporting the same problem out there. 

 

Best Viewed in 1440p for me

 

Edited by SeaW0lf

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On 3/20/2020 at 8:01 PM, SeaW0lf said:

OK, this one was in single player, Alternate Visibility enable. Track recorded today with Quick Mission, Ultra Settings, 4AA, TrackIR 5. Same problem, same bug. Planes are shrinking and some disappearing in mid zoom, and then ballooning up. In a target rich environment, planes seems to be teleporting, appearing and disappearing randomly, making it impossible to get any bearings on what's going on. I've seen some old veterans reporting the same problem in the past, but thankfully J5 does not use Alternate Visibility. Some WWII servers still use it, but I'm not sure why. I've seen people reporting the same problem out there. 

 

Best Viewed in 1440p for me
 

Spoiler

 

 

I think that fliying circus in single player have nothing to do whit we are talking about 

 

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2 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

I think that fliying circus in single player have nothing to do whit we are talking about 

 

Jason said in this thread that he never saw the shrinking planes in single player with alt vis. I think that he was saying that multiplayer has network problems. You can check on the previous posts.

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On 3/29/2020 at 3:55 PM, [TLC]MasterPooner said:

Max Graphics settings, gamma 1.0, sharpening on. 1440p. Widest FOV. single player.

It would be great if this could be fixed.

 

Would be awesome if some of the devs adressed exactly this, so we need to keep this thread alive.

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On 4/4/2020 at 7:58 PM, So_ein_Feuerball said:

 

Would be awesome if some of the devs adressed exactly this, so we need to keep this thread alive.

i agree, i hope not that the damage model is addressed, it will be next up for bug fixes  

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Posted (edited)
On 4/5/2020 at 1:58 AM, So_ein_Feuerball said:

Would be awesome if some of the devs adressed exactly this, so we need to keep this thread alive.

 

Seconded. As most of you have covered plane contacts, I will focus on ship contact rendering issues.

 

 

game v4.002:

 

 

game v4.005c:

 

 

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
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Posted (edited)

Please Focus on this awful rendering we have in this game . We have a great last patch . 

This should be top priority  .!!!

32" IPS 1440p  monitor . 

Edited by ACG_KoN
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