AI improvements gratitude

[unreasonable]

Maybe they are happy because the AI is beginning to resemble noob human pilots in RL? Or considerably better IMHO, given that a considerable proportion of fighter pilots were lost in their first few flights, perhaps in their first actual fight. 

 

If you want to play against people who fly as though they have hundreds of hours of combat, stick to MP. It just is not a realistic aspiration for the AI.  

35 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

This is a result of the hard-coded AI landing logic that I've been wanting to be changed forever now.

 

Yes, Han said this is hard to change when I raised it in a thread a while ago.  Why the AI cannot touch down in the middle of the runway rather than right at one end I do not know, but I leave it to the programmers.  Another solution would be to make the landing circuits larger so that one circuit is completed just after the plane in front has exited: a longer circuit only done once would still be better than the current delays.

[blitze]

AI improvements are interesting. 

 

In Bodenplatte career AI seems relatively easy compared to Stalingrad and Kuban career AI which is quite fierce.

I have had on those two careers, recently, some very fierce fights on both sides against AI.

 

Experience on BP has been on both sides be it 109 career and P47 and Spit IX careers.

 

My last flight in a Spit V in Kuban I had a bunch of pissed off 109G4's running me down back to base cause I took some of their 190A5's out. ?

Nearly made it back to base but lost a wing with 5 109's hounding me.  Managed to chut back to terra firma.

 

I am finding though that it is not seemingly possible to loose AI pursuers in cloud cover.  AI know where you are regardless of large levels of cloud cover to hide in and alter course in. Earlier it was possible to loose pursuers in cloud cover.

 

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

4 hours ago, blitze said:

AI improvements are interesting. 

 

I am finding though that it is not seemingly possible to loose AI pursuers in cloud cover.  AI know where you are regardless of large levels of cloud cover to hide in and alter course in. Earlier it was possible to loose pursuers in cloud cover.

 

 

AI sees quite well in clouds and clouds certainly do not block LOS of AI as they should. I've created a topic about it here, they see you well in overcast.

They see you well in overcast, I had the same problem when trying to outrun AI in overcast and they were still able to follow me back to base (this is my biggest gripe with AI, following you all the way back to base). 

[migmadmarine]

13 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

Hummm, people being happy because the AI resembles noob human piloting on multiplayer.

I mean, what the heck?

I for one at least am happy that progress is being made. Things still have  a ways to go, but it is a hell of a lot better than when the career mode was first introduced. I've been flying the same 109 career from the start of Moscow up to nearly the end of Kuban now, and the improvements are quite visible to me (that career alone has something like 80 hours flight time). It used to be that my flight members would never get kills, and often times I'd be the only one returning to base, due to their either being shot down trying to turn fight or flying into the ground. Now I am having flights where we get into brawls, and my flight mates will shoot down 3 or 4 fighters, and maybe lose one or two (especially in the last couple patches, the Bf-110s that have been showing up in Kuban have been doing work, it's almost astonishing). Formation flying has improved a lot too, the flight lead used to be miles ahead of the wingmen, with the wingmen wobbling all over the place. So yea, there is still a lot of room for improvement, but it is waaaaaaay better than it once was. 

[MasserME262]

15 hours ago, unreasonable said:

If you want to play against people who fly as though they have hundreds of hours of combat, stick to MP. It just is not a realistic aspiration for the AI.  

One thing is to fly like a noob, and pther is crashing against floor because you wanted to destroy a landing plane.

[migmadmarine]

8 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

One thing is to fly like a noob, and pther is crashing against floor because you wanted to destroy a landing plane.

I've watched friends of mine do this in multiplayer. I've also spent a good 15 min trench running down Stalingrad streets in career mode with a Bf-109 up on  the stoop making passes at me, but holding altitude when I am too close to the ground. Made for quite the chase. Eventually ended when I  tried to make a break for home, but ran out of gas.

[hobotango]

Is that so ? I tried one on one against an Ace opponent and it did seem much better.  Alright well, if the AI improved, then automatic buy from me. Getting Bodenplatte to test this out. 

Oh, and, since I have been complaining a lot about the AI, then yes. MUCH THANK YOU !! AI is everything in a combat sim, I do think. 

[Yogiflight]

I was just flying a ground attack mission with the Bf 110 E2 in PWCG, escorted by 6 Bf 109s. No enemy contact, 5 109s crashed, when we changed our heading. This is what I experience again and again. These absolutely simple things are, what should be improved at once. What do I need enemy planes for? We lose the war without them.

[Gambit21]

2 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

I was just flying a ground attack mission with the Bf 110 E2 in PWCG, escorted by 6 Bf 109s. No enemy contact, 5 109s crashed, when we changed our heading. This is what I experience again and again. These absolutely simple things are, what should be improved at once. What do I need enemy planes for? We lose the war without them.

 

That sounds like a mission logic problem to me, not AI.

I haven’t witnessed this behavior.

 

If I remember correctly Patrick doesn’t use actual formation logic, but rather places waypoints for each aircraft, If these waypoints are not placed correctly then you can get the results that you witnessed.

 

I’d report the issue to him.

 

 

This is why we’ve had to remind a few testers to be careful reporting bugs if using PWCG. Nothing against Patrick’s fine work, but just be able to determine the difference between logic and AI issues.

 

All that said maybe it was some aberrant AI behavior, but I doubt it.

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

If I remember correctly Patrick doesn’t use actual formation logic, but rather places waypoints for each aircraft, If these waypoints are not placed correctly then you can get the results that you witnessed

OK, agreed. But shouldn't there be some kind of basic AI logic, like

1. Try to survive

2. Try to return your aircraft in one piece

This is something, that misses in this game. They should always try to avoid crashes. And another thing that surely would make this easier is, if AI would not always fly hard turns, even with low speed. When I fly escort missions, AI turns like mad at 300 km/h. If I would try to follow them, I surely would constantly go into a stall.

[Gambit21]

27 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

OK, agreed. But shouldn't there be some kind of basic AI logic, like

1. Try to survive

2. Try to return your aircraft in one piece

This is something, that misses in this game. They should always try to avoid crashes. And another thing that surely would make this easier is, if AI would not always fly hard turns, even with low speed. When I fly escort missions, AI turns like mad at 300 km/h. If I would try to follow them, I surely would constantly go into a stall.

 

There’s some hard coded collision avoidance logic between non-linked aircraft, but it’s ‘gentle’ so to speak - in close proximity and with that turn/heading change it probably wasn’t enough. It’s up to the mission designer to place waypoints properly. (again nothing against our talented Patrick)

 

When using formation command there is much more aggressive collision avoidance logic in place. 

 

As as far as “bring your aircraft home in one piece” that suggests AI on a whole other level.

 

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I seldom play SP but just wanted to check how it will be to attack Volkel  airfield  at the time of famous Operation Bodenplatte  airfield raids (1.01.1945) in 109 of I./JG77. 
career difficulty hard, moderate objects densinity.

When I finaly get there with my AI 109s flight (route speed was 450kp/h but they flew way below that speed), AI passed airfield above, do not dive to drop the bombs or strafe targets, passing  airfield they decide to turn when at the same time enemy Tempests start to merge... so they droped the bombs where it will falls . No static target was destroyed by them. Suprised AA  was whole time weak, was fighting with emeny above it with inpunity (which can be seen as good -  AA was avoiding to kill own but when all enemy where gone there was the same low amplitude of AA bursts and machine guns fire), shoot down 10 enemy planes, my squad in number of 8 was unable to shoot down even one ....
Most AIs were not attacking, flying withot clue what to do, when attacked common defensive maneuver was to trun circlying, one AI must get seak of it  becouse he decited to end this pathetic patern and dived into ground -  that was funny ?  
After all Tempest were shoot down, I sppoted and attacked 3 flying near by p47s carring bombs. When I was about to shoot down the last one from behind and below, he manage to detect me ,dropped the bombs but then he did stupid thing to "brake" in horizontal slow right turn. One thing I liked from second fight is that I was able to stay below and  behind first p47 and suprise him.

No AI were landing when we came, no AI were taking off to make mission more intresting. Overall boring expierence really. 

[smink1701]

This sim is great in many ways but AI is not one of them. I know it is a work in progress and has been improved but still has a LONG way to go. This game should never be boring but in SP it is. I typically play for 10 minutes and then I’m out.  I would take all the resources going into tanks, multiple versions of the same plane and new maps and put it into AI. 

[onlyforbrian]

13 hours ago, smink1701 said:

This sim is great in many ways but AI is not one of them. I know it is a work in progress and has been improved but still has a LONG way to go. This game should never be boring but in SP it is. I typically play for 10 minutes and then I’m out.  I would take all the resources going into tanks, multiple versions of the same plane and new maps and put it into AI. 

I don't have a problem with AI quick missions in VR. Put them on Ace and good luck.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

4 hours ago, onlyforbrian said:

I don't have a problem with AI quick missions in VR. Put them on Ace and good luck.

I had yesterday ,qmb  (2x 109 g14 ,2x190 A8 -random ) vs ( 4x p51 and 4x Tempest - ACE), end result 7 AI killed by me in 109. Some my kills were when AI actually did do something else that before ie. -  in vertical climb which was new, presume after bum and zoom attack.

Edited December 23, 2019 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Feathered_IV]

11 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

end result 7 AI killed by me

 

That happens to me in an 8vs8 QMB too.  When the AI is set to Ace I end up destroying up to 7 of the enemy while the rest of the AI sort of shimmy around.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

32 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

That happens to me in an 8vs8 QMB too.  When the AI is set to Ace I end up destroying up to 7 of the enemy while the rest of the AI sort of shimmy around.

Yes , they are useless.

[Lusekofte]

I noticed I can no longer be stupid around ai planes. 109 can attack from no where abandon climb and attack again. Leaving me no chance seeing where they cone from. 
Much like in mp, however if you manage to get behind them I really cant see much difference, there is still a way to go. 
But I am satisfied as long as I am able to respect them. Now we need proper communication and wingmen to rely on. Improved yes but still I do not feel safe with them

I do not blame the devs, following this sim from the start, seeing all the improvements make one realize how much work and development it takes making a living vibrant single player environment. 
One just have to admire the effort 

Edited December 23, 2019 by No.322_LuseKofte

[onlyforbrian]

15 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Yes , they are useless.

Wow.. the AI works great on my machine, high settings are a real workout for me, they actually kill me 50% of the time. Maybe I'm just a lousy pilot..even though I'm a real pilot in real life lol

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

9 hours ago, onlyforbrian said:

Wow.. the AI works great on my machine, high settings are a real workout for me, they actually kill me 50% of the time. Maybe I'm just a lousy pilot..even though I'm a real pilot in real life lol

 

At least you have fun with then , enjoy it

[Yogiflight]

13 hours ago, onlyforbrian said:

even though I'm a real pilot in real life lol

And how many dogfights with WW II fighters are you flying IRL?

[Ribbon]

AI did improve in last few patches but still far from being challenging!

Dogfighting alone in g-14/p51/k4/spit9 vs. 4x Spit9/k4 Ace lvl and shooting them down without any problem or a challenge, in a turn/vertical fight.

 

I should be dead going against 3-4 enemies, that should be relevance.

And i'm average skilled pilot, so let's give them objective feedback, that will help product the most.

[Yogiflight]

After they already improved enemy AI, they should, after stopping the circling, now do something for those, who are not only playing the lonesome cowboy, fighting as many enemies as possible all the time, but prefer flying the game's career or PWCG. When you try to use IL 2 as a simulation more than a first person shooter, you are by far most of the time flying with your squadmates in formation in landing approach and so on, and only very few time dogfighting. So it is of much more interest, how believable does AI behave in normal situations. And here currently is quite something to do. Plus the opening of engagements of your squadmates is a pain. Everytime I see how they burn their energy instead of trying to use it to their advantage, I would like to exit and do some housework, and I hate housework.

[Stoopy]

@Yogiflight Unless I'm wrong, it appears likely that formation flying habits if the AI may have started to see some nice changes?

 

As part of testing a new mission set that I'm close to getting done, I went for a quick flight with two AI aircraft set to fly in a V formation behind the leader (me).  After taking off and circling the airfield once as I usually do to give them a chance to start forming up, I headed out over the Volga and settled into a nice cruise just below cloud level.

 

Looking back over my left shoulder I expected to see Dieter in the #2 position show as a distant speck following way behind me, and I just about jumped out of my seat when I saw he was formed up tight just to my side and below!

 

Figuring this had to be some kind of anomaly, I checked to my right and there was Heinrich flying nice and close!

 

They don't stay as close once you start turning, even gently, but I can't blame them, I would be extremely cautious flying around someone like myself.  I don't even like being in the same cockpit with me.   But once you level out, they snuggle back up nice and close...

 

I also saw the same if not even tighter formation when flying as lead in a formation of IL-2's.  

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by =[TIA]=Stoopy

[Yogiflight]

3 hours ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

Unless I'm wrong, it appears likely that formation flying habits if the AI may have started to see some nice changes?

Yes, formation flying was improved with the last update, together with higher cruising speeds in career and PWCG missions. It is now much more fun flying careers and campaigns as it looks much more realistic. Of course, there are still some things to do, like ground attack aircrafts circling over the target after they attacked it, I even had this appear in my last two bomber missions with the Ju88. But I think we are going in a good direction and the game keeps getting better and better for career and campaign players.

[Blitzen]

Ditto AI in Flying Circus...

[ST_Catchov]

On 12/23/2019 at 7:30 PM, Feathered_IV said:

 

That happens to me in an 8vs8 QMB too.  When the AI is set to Ace I end up destroying up to 7 of the enemy while the rest of the AI sort of shimmy around.

 

Pretty much the same for me (in FC). Now the enemy AI does lots of Immelmann's and as they stall you knock 'em down. Still, it's great to see the devs striving for AI improvement. It's a tough gig but THE most important aspect for immersive SP.

[blitze]

On 11/28/2019 at 2:14 AM, smink1701 said:

Simulating accurate, believable combat maneuvers are way more important to me than simulating blackouts when pulling Gs.  

Have not had much time to experience the tweaked AI but if the monotonous NASCAR turning has been toned down, my sincere thanks to the dev team!!!

It's ok, they only turn to the Right, NASCAR turns to the Left ?

 

No, they are a lot more capable now.  Before I lost control input and had to hard exit Il2 ? - I was having a great time in the 190A8 playing with Tempests.  Luckily we had some Dora's to keep them on their toes.  Unfortunately, when I found my flight after the fight, Il2 stopped responding to any input, HOTAS, Mouse, Keyboard so I had to Alt F4 out of it.  My plane had lawn darted in the meantime.

 

In Bodenplat fights are easy to Id who is who as the German kites leave nice dark trails behind them and the US/Brits don't.

On 12/25/2019 at 5:44 AM, EAF_Ribbon said:

AI did improve in last few patches but still far from being challenging!

Dogfighting alone in g-14/p51/k4/spit9 vs. 4x Spit9/k4 Ace lvl and shooting them down without any problem or a challenge, in a turn/vertical fight.

 

I should be dead going against 3-4 enemies, that should be relevance.

And i'm average skilled pilot, so let's give them objective feedback, that will help product the most.

Ribbon - get out of QMB fights and run a career full real and if you want a challenge then Iron Man.  Then come back to us and talk AI.

 

QMB AI fighting is not the same as the lack of directives AI have for their flying.  There are more detailed posts in forum on how this works.

[falle96]

After playing several missions in a BoM campaign, I've noticed that enemy 109s seem smarter than the 110s I encounter. 109s are more willing to fight in the vertical, and I find them difficult to engage (part of this is due to me just not being a terribly great dogfighter, but still), while 110s seem to prefer fighting in the horizontal. Why they want to turn-and-burn with a MiG-3, I dunno, but my kill count thanks them.

 

Has anyone else observed this?

 

Quick edit: My squadron's AI seems to be pretty well capable of pivoting away from ground attack when enemy fighters are spotted, which is nice. My last sortie, we were strafing a German transport convoy when about half a squadron of 110s arrived to intercept us. I was worried for a bit if my compatriots would rise up to meet them, but to my relief they did. Still a pretty hairy fight all the same, but at least it wasn't me alone.

 

I might consider upping the game difficulty from medium to hard, I'm finding 110s consistently not difficult to kill provided I don't meander in their rear gunsights and I'm not sure how ""realistic"" that is...

Edited January 29, 2020 by FarflungWanderer

[Stoopy]

12 minutes ago, FarflungWanderer said:

After playing several missions in a BoM campaign, I've noticed that enemy 109s seem smarter than the 110s I encounter. 109s are more willing to fight in the vertical, and I find them difficult to engage (part of this is due to me just not being a terribly great dogfighter, but still), while 110s seem to prefer fighting in the horizontal. Why they want to turn-and-burn with a MiG-3, I dunno, but my kill count thanks them.

 

Has anyone else observed this?

 

I have a mission that creates engagements with semi-random samplings of AI flights and when taking on 110's, some of them definitely go into the vertical, so I suspect that it just has to do with the AI level they are set at by the mission creator - Ace, High, Normal, Low.   Setting up a QMB with those options could confirm that.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by =[TIA]=Stoopy

[falle96]

2 minutes ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

 

I have a mission that creates engagements with semi-random samplings of AI flights and when taking in 110's, some of them definitely go into the vertical, so I suspect that it just has to do with the AI level they are set at by the mission creator - Ace, High, Normal, Low.   Setting up a QMB with those otpions could conform that.

I edited my post to say that I was thinking of upping the difficulty to hard. I'll have to see how/in which way 110 behavior changes on a higher difficulty than on medium.

 

I've also noticed, though maybe there hasn't been as much opportunity, the enemy AI doesn't seem to trail you all the way back to your airbase anymore. I'll keep you posted if I spot that again. I had at one point no less than four(!) 110s trying to catch me as I was disengaging from a fight prior to the most recent patch.

[jeanba]

On 1/29/2020 at 4:38 PM, FarflungWanderer said:

I edited my post to say that I was thinking of upping the difficulty to hard. I'll have to see how/in which way 110 behavior changes on a higher difficulty than on medium.

 

I've also noticed, though maybe there hasn't been as much opportunity, the enemy AI doesn't seem to trail you all the way back to your airbase anymore. I'll keep you posted if I spot that again. I had at one point no less than four(!) 110s trying to catch me as I was disengaging from a fight prior to the most recent patch.

They still did in my Spit (412 RCAF) career

 

Important edit : Nevertheless, I must say that I also noted AI improvements : less ground crash, better dogfight behavior : all is not negative and I am very happy AI is being constantly improved

Edited February 6, 2020 by jeanba

[jojy47jojyrocks]

I wonder if the AI blacks out in a turning fight? they still keep circling for a turning fight, almost forever. There should be some limitation on how many G's they can do for a duration.

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, jojy47jojyrocks said:

I wonder if the AI blacks out in a turning fight?

 

Yes, yes they do.

 

4 hours ago, jojy47jojyrocks said:

There should be some limitation on how many G's they can do for a duration.

 

There is. 

[rowdyb00t]

@LukeFF

  like the new cat Luke 

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, rowdyb00t said:

@LukeFF

  like the new cat Luke 

 

Spasiba!

 

 

[Feathered_IV]

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2020 at 2:30 AM, FarflungWanderer said:

while 110s seem to prefer fighting in the horizontal. Why they want to turn-and-burn with a MiG-3, I dunno, but my kill count thanks them.

 

 

I suspect the 110s don't have the energy to fight in the vertical for any great period of time.  They certainly don't have afterburners to bug out as you suggest by the jet-era phrase, turn and burn.

[Yogiflight]

23 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

I suspect the 110s don't have the energy to fight in the vertical for any great period of time.  They certainly don't have afterburners to bug out as you suggest by the jet-era phrase, turn and burn.

In the 110 it is more like first turn, then burn

[MikhaVT]

On 12/22/2019 at 11:17 PM, onlyforbrian said:

I don't have a problem with AI quick missions in VR. Put them on Ace and good luck.

I've done this before, started at 1000m and put an enemy 109 at 3000m. He slammed into the ground.

 

On 1/29/2020 at 10:38 AM, FarflungWanderer said:

I've also noticed, though maybe there hasn't been as much opportunity, the enemy AI doesn't seem to trail you all the way back to your airbase anymore. I'll keep you posted if I spot that again. I had at one point no less than four(!) 110s trying to catch me as I was disengaging from a fight prior to the most recent patch.

Since that patch i have fewer enemy fighters trying to follow me home. Previously, i'd try to disengage and get 3-4 fighters following me all the way back. Now it's 3-4 that follow me initially, then usually all but one break off and give up the chase. The last one still follows me into m airfield's AAA...

[jojy47jojyrocks]

17 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, yes they do.

 

 

There is. 

 

Its different in QMB than with Career path. The AI keeps turning and turning...at long duration.