Who can name this famous pilot?

[Trooper117]

 

Who can name this famous pilot?

 

 

[Zooropa_Fly]

Is it Waggaz ?

[Cybermat47]

Keith Caldwell, who, after a midair collision, nursed his plane to a lower altitude before jumping to the ground. He survived to become an Air Commodore in the RNZAF.

Edited November 10, 2019 by [Pb]Cybermat47

[J2_Trupobaw]

Looks like Doc Zebra.

 

[76SQN-FatherTed]

Squadron Commander the Lord Flasheart

[Trooper117]

Lol... Keith Caldwell it is, well done!

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Keith "Balls of Steel" Caldwell

[US103_Baer]

Worth adding that Keith 'Grid' Caldwell was CO of 74 Sq from Mar 1918.

 

Larner has done an excellent skin for this SE5a of Caldwell's btw. 

 

 

Download Link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1s3LnITU_UXjs2sUQQgZlEalFSYaCEXuC/view?usp=sharing

Edited November 11, 2019 by US103_Baer

[Feathered_IV]

6 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

 

Who can name this famous pilot?

 

 

That is based on the famous painting titled “Dawn Patrol - Late again!”

[Trooper117]

Here is the story ref the pictures above..

 

In September 1918 Caldwell’s quick thinking and resourcefulness saved him after he was involved in a mid-air collision during air combat. Struck by another S.E.5a from his squadron at 16,000 feet, the impact seriously damaged his wing struts and sent his aircraft into a semi-flat spin. In an oft-repeated story, it is said that after falling several thousand feet, Caldwell stepped out onto the lower wing in an attempt to control the stricken aircraft’s descent. Holding a wing strut with his left hand, and controlling the joystick with his right, he managed to crash land behind British lines, leaping to safety seconds before the plane hit the ground. In fact Caldwell himself chose to correct the story, though even by his account it is an exciting story of disaster averted by quick thinking:

 

''You refer to the account of my standing on the wing of a SE5 aircraft which had been damaged in a collision. Afraid this is not correct. I think either 'Taffy' Jones, who wrote some war books after WWI, or perhaps Springs may have given this wrong story, as writers sometimes did to embellish situations. What did happen was that I found that I could get the machine under some control by putting my left foot on the right rudder and leaning out to the right as far as I could. All this performance took about 8,000 feet and then I had to lose further height to keep some control and crashed a short distance behind our lines. Aeroplane no good, but pilot cut lip and plenty bruises … Anyone conversant with the controls of a sensitive aeroplane would know that to leave the rudder alone would be disastrous. So much for that episode.''

[No.23_Triggers]

This is still one of the single most incredible moments of the air war for me! The sheer nerve! 

[PatrickAWlson]

Taffy Jones (Who also gave Mick Mannock 73 victories because he absolutely hated Billy Bishop) is not exactly a great source of truth  .  

[J5_Gamecock]

I thought maybe it was Errol Flynn.

[No.23_Triggers]

20 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Taffy Jones (Who also gave Mick Mannock 73 victories because he absolutely hated Billy Bishop) is not exactly a great source of truth  .  

 

I've heard a few times here and there that Mannock could even have been into the 100s with his victories, and his score was lessened because he used to 'gift' confirmations to newbies in his unit. They also say Raoul Lufbery could have got as many as 60 victories, with many of his 'unconfirmed' being witnessed by fellow pilots...interesting, right? 

Edited November 12, 2019 by US93_Larner

[PatrickAWlson]

@US93_Larner I take all of that with a massive grain of salt.  IMHO it is almost inevitable that every ace shot down fewer than they are credited with, not more.  That is not an attempt to disparage very brave men, simply a conclusion based on every serious study I have ever seen.  British victory counts in particular were very much inflated with out of control.  Again, no fault to the individual pilots, the system simply was what it was. 

 

What is absolutely true of Mannock is that he was a great pilot and great squadron leader.  IMHO the best British squadron commander of WWI.  He scored individually and raised the game of those around him.  My opinion of him does not change if he got 73 or 62 or if half of his 62 were OOC that did not really crash (not at all unlikely).  He flew, admitted to fear in a culture that did not allow it, flew and fought anyway, and led his men in an exemplary manner.  And he was certainly among the top scorers in the British air services.  Exactly how many?  Don't know.

 

As for credited to actual:

Manfred von Richthofen did not shoot down 80 planes.  Maybe 76.  Certainly over here 70.  That makes his credited to actual ratio remarkably good.

Voss, credited with 48, almost certainly did not shoot down more than 40.

Goering with 27 - it's very difficult to say with certainty that he got more than a few.

Bishop with 72 ... almost certainly nothing like that.  The man must have had pics of Generals getting intimate with gots or something.  The only man in the history of British armed conflict to be awarded the VC on a wholly uncorroborated action.

Fonck ... claims of well over 100.  Almost impossible to verify many of the claims or the actual credited victories, which probably means that some of them did not happen.

Rickenbacker - was given a victory over a plane described as "last seen in a steep bank".    

 

Sorry, but when credited victories are actually looked into they don't add up nicely.  And once more, IMHO that takes nothing from the men that flew.  Just a statement that the math is not as accurate as one might hope.

[J2_Trupobaw]

I believe we should have separate score, kills tied by historian to actual enemy loses. This includes both records from victim squadron and situations when plane / pilot were recovered by victors. 

 

Bishop and Mannock both were their own COs, which means they were confirming their own claims. They are certainly not deflated. I have strong suspition that the Commonwealth pilot that destroyed most actual German planes in air combat was Collishaw.

 

British scoring was very imprecise anyway crediting pilots with planes that dived away / spun out of fight, planes whose pilots made forced landing, or even friendly planes seen going down in the same area. Personally, I believe that in case of British we should use the word "claimed", not "scored", to avoid misconception the numbers are comparable. Americans used more solid confirmation ruled, but credited pilots with shared victories, which also makes their scores inflated compared to French and German. The French were using same scoring standards as Germans while operating not unlike RFC, so we can expect their scores to be deflated. German claims, finally, are pretty solid; there are ocassional mystery planes claimed, or enemy planes that in fact recovered and made a landing, plus plenty of cases of multiple pilots claiming same plane (the final credit only went to one pilot). Goering had highest among German pilots propotrion of confirmed kills unmatchable with enemy loses (10 mystery planes out of 28).

 

 

[Cynic_Al]

On 11/11/2019 at 2:10 PM, US93_Larner said:

This is still one of the single most incredible moments of the air war for me! The sheer nerve! 

 

When faced with certain death I don't think nerve plays a part. This reminded me of something I read a long time ago in Bobby Oxspring's Spitfire Command, of which I managed to get a good scan. I'm sure there must have been other similar incidents.

 

:

[No.23_Triggers]

3 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

When faced with certain death I don't think nerve plays a part. This reminded me of something I read a long time ago in Bobby Oxspring's Spitfire Command, of which I managed to get a good scan. I'm sure there must have been other similar incidents.

 

 

Wow - just pure animal survival instinct! Incredible story...

6 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

*Snip*

 

Sorry, but when credited victories are actually looked into they don't add up nicely.  And once more, IMHO that takes nothing from the men that flew.  Just a statement that the math is not as accurate as one might hope.

 

Very true, and I agree that, in all likelihood, many aces didn't get as many as they were credited. Still, I can't help but buy into the legends, just because they're so interesting! If I could believe anyone scored more than what they were credited, it would be the French / Americans, owing to their notoriously strict confirmation rules. 

 

5 hours ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

I have strong suspition that the Commonwealth pilot that destroyed most actual German planes in air combat was Collishaw.

 

British scoring was very imprecise anyway crediting pilots with planes that dived away / spun out of fight, planes whose pilots made forced landing, or even friendly planes seen going down in the same area. Personally, I believe that in case of British we should use the word "claimed", not "scored", to avoid misconception the numbers are comparable. Americans used more solid confirmation ruled, but credited pilots with shared victories, which also makes their scores inflated compared to French and German. 

 

 

I'm not so sure...McCudden definitely gave Collishaw a run for his money. Of Collishaw's 60 victories, 29 were Out-Of-Controls. Of McCudden's 57, 11 were Out-Of-Controls. So, in terms of certain air kills, McCudden scored 46 to Collishaw's 31. 

The Americans adopted the French claiming system - both credited shared victories. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by US93_Larner

[PatrickAWlson]

@US93_Larner No question that is true.  Wolff was listed as an OOC victory - in this case the plane was OOC because the man at the controls was dead.  MvR probably brought down a plane when he was still in two seaters - the claim was denied.  So yes, there are certainly victories that were not recorded as such.  Thing is for every one of those there were many more credited victories that were not.

 

Need to reiterate - no disrespect to the young men who went up and fought for their lives.  

 

P.S. agree on McCudden.  He took down a lot of two seaters behind British lines.  They left smoking holes.  As you point out many of Collishaw's were OOC.  if I was flying though I would want Mannock as my CO.

Edited November 12, 2019 by PatrickAWlson

[Thad]

Can anybody identify this famous WWI dogfighting pilot? ?

 

 

[No.23_Triggers]

@Thad Roy Brown? 

[Zooropa_Fly]

Is it Waggaz ?

[Thad]

15 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:

@Thad Roy Brown? 

 

Negative. ?

9 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Is it Waggaz ?

 

Afraid not. ?

[YoYo]

My dog Odie ?.

[Thad]

A relative most likely. ?

[Cybermat47]

2 hours ago, Thad said:

Can anybody identify this famous WWI dogfighting pilot? ?

That’s Snoopy. Known as “killer” by his comrades for how much pleasure he took in strafing crashed aircraft and parachutes. After the war, he was arrested and sentenced to death for the murders of the Brown and Van Pelt families, along with their friends, in the Great Pumpkin Massacre of October 31st, 1926.

 

The story of Snoopy later inspired the comic strip Peanuts after Charles Schulz heard an incomplete and inaccurate retelling of the case.

Edited November 13, 2019 by [Pb]Cybermat47

[No.23_Triggers]

31 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

That’s Snoopy. Known as “killer” by his comrades for how much pleasure he took in strafing crashed aircraft and parachutes.

 

Later, to avoid charges of War Crimes, he changed his name to Talbot...

 

[YoYo]

23 hours ago, Thad said:

A relative most likely. ?