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-[HRAF]Roland_HUNter

Erla Hood/Longer Tail/As Engine for G-6/G-14

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29 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

The main difference, as I recall, was the way in which the MW50 was delivered to the engine. 

I believe in order to simplify production and reduce hours per unit they always simply sprayed mw50 into the supercharger intake. That never chaged

Ok to clear up some stuff :

Each factory had slightly different features on the 109. A 109 out of the Erla plant was not the same as one from Regensburg. They had little minor differences. Different fittings, different parts, some plants made tails out of metal some switched to wood. 109 production was extremely decentralized in part due to bombings but also was neccessary to keep production numbers at maximum. They caused tons of problems with repairs but thats getting ahead of this. So you can't definitively say what belonged to this g6 and this g14. G14s as a general rule had a wooden tail, erla haube, mw50. But some 14s had metal tails, and different oil coolers. Its a mess. That was one of the promises the k4 brought to the table, standardized 109s. Imagine the trouble the devs have to go through in trying to find and remove all these nuances. So lets not make it infeasible and ask for a late g6. It would be a nightmare for skinning, decoding what the hell a late war g6 is. Something alot more feasible that fits current devs constraints would be the g10. Shes a bit more standardized. And their isnt nearly as much randomness between the mess that was g14 and g6 production. If were going to get another 109 it would most likely be g10. Thats what I'm putting my money on and I'd suggest you guys do the same. 

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36 minutes ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

I believe in order to simplify production and reduce hours per unit they always simply sprayed mw50 into the supercharger intake. That never chaged

Ok to clear up some stuff :

Each factory had slightly different features on the 109. A 109 out of the Erla plant was not the same as one from Regensburg. They had little minor differences. Different fittings, different parts, some plants made tails out of metal some switched to wood. 109 production was extremely decentralized in part due to bombings but also was neccessary to keep production numbers at maximum. They caused tons of problems with repairs but thats getting ahead of this. So you can't definitively say what belonged to this g6 and this g14. G14s as a general rule had a wooden tail, erla haube, mw50. But some 14s had metal tails, and different oil coolers. Its a mess. That was one of the promises the k4 brought to the table, standardized 109s. Imagine the trouble the devs have to go through in trying to find and remove all these nuances. So lets not make it infeasible and ask for a late g6. It would be a nightmare for skinning, decoding what the hell a late war g6 is. Something alot more feasible that fits current devs constraints would be the g10. Shes a bit more standardized. And their isnt nearly as much randomness between the mess that was g14 and g6 production. If were going to get another 109 it would most likely be g10. Thats what I'm putting my money on and I'd suggest you guys do the same. 

So there ll be no G-6/AS and Erla haube. So Axis should have G-10 in 1943 oct missions and in 1944 early? I do not agree with that!

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Was the G-6/AS deployed to the Kuban theater in late 43/early 44? 
 

 

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6 minutes ago, 357th_Dog said:

Was the G-6/AS deployed to the Kuban theater in late 43/early 44? 

 

No

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4 hours ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

lack luster g14 performance.


That's too harsh on the G-14, the performance isn't top of the charts but still decent (not that much speed but the climb is close to the K-4's and turns better), unless you are talking exclusively about high altitude. Below 5000 meters the G-14 has a bit better performance than the G-14/AS.

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12 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

Honestly from the external view I can´t. Perhaps our 109 expert @VO101Kurfurst can answer that?

 

 

As others said the bump on the lower cowling is the best visual bet.. but even that isn’t 100% because some late G-14/AS had the ASB/ASC engines which sported the same bumps and horsepower, and Erla had a series of cowlings on G-10s without the bump so.. well the G-10 is just another Gustav with internal components of the K series, so the only certain way is to read the Werknummer on the tail, if it’s visible.

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3 hours ago, thenorm said:

Which is exactly why I'd like to see that added into the mods for the Bf-109G-6.

 

As others have mentioned already, that would be more or less a "downgraded" G-14 without Boost (MW-50). What on the other hand maybe would make more sense for the game, for a 3/44-9/44 or even later timeframe, would be either a G6/AS - G14/AS - G10 module, which could be used both in early 1944 up until 4/45 and which indeed, in form of G-10s and G14/ASs, played a significant quantitative role on the western front and during Operation Bodenplatte specifically. We will see if and when we might see such a collector item in the game.

Edited by sevenless
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8 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

But what are the differences between the late G6 and the G14? It wouldn't make any sense to implement a late G6, if it is the same as the already in game, G14.

 

It would only make sense if they plan to release a early/mid 44 game module, because the G-14 was introduced IIRC in August 44.

 

On another topic I have a literature question for the participants of this thread:

 

For everything Fw-190 we have Peter Rodeicke and the Smith and Creek publications. Is there something comparably authoritive available for the Bf-109 ?

Edited by sevenless

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4 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:


That's too harsh on the G-14, the performance isn't top of the charts but still decent (not that much speed but the climb is close to the K-4's and turns better), unless you are talking exclusively about high altitude. Below 5000 meters the G-14 has a bit better performance than the G-14/AS.

Etendard. I fly g14 almost all the time on Combat Box. I enjoy it, its a fine aircraft, but realtive to aircraft its fighting against its medicore for 10 minutes. The la5fn came out in 43 and is still faster then the 14 (not that speed is the only variable but you get what I'm saying).  Shes still maneuverable but she lacks speed to catch anything but a spit with no 150 oct. Shes outdated... I still love her of course

5 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

So there ll be no G-6/AS and Erla haube. So Axis should have G-10 in 1943 oct missions and in 1944 early? I do not agree with that!

I didnt say that... I'm talking about a good 109bfor bodenplatte that we can realistically expect to receive given the variable that the devs are under.

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2 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

It would only make sense if they plan to release a early/mid 44 game module, because the G-14 was introduced IIRC in August 44.

 

On another topic I have a literature question for the participants of this thread:

 

For everything Fw-190 we have Peter Rodeicke and the Smith and Creek publications. Is there something comparably authoritive available for the Bf-109 ?

14 was in time for D Day so June/July. 

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2 hours ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

Etendard. I fly g14 almost all the time on Combat Box. I enjoy it, its a fine aircraft, but realtive to aircraft its fighting against its medicore for 10 minutes. The la5fn came out in 43 and is still faster then the 14 (not that speed is the only variable but you get what I'm saying).  Shes still maneuverable but she lacks speed to catch anything but a spit with no 150 oct. Shes outdated... I still love her of course

 

I like it too, and I tend to prefer it over the K-4 at low alt ^^ It's still faster than P-38, P-47 at low mid-alts, and other workhorse late war fighters such as the Typhoon and most of the Yaks. And unless going over 5000 meters the G-14/AS and G-10 won't bridge the gap between G-14 and K-4, as they are slower for what I could see (G-10 at 1.8 ata, with 1.98 ata it is faster down low).

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

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The g10 is much more aerodynamically cleaner and has a stronger engine. So yes it would be faster down low. The as has a bigger supercharger and can go faster down low because its also aerodynamically cleaner to! Not by a lot but a bit

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7 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

It would only make sense if they plan to release a early/mid 44 game module, because the G-14 was introduced IIRC in August 44.

 

On another topic I have a literature question for the participants of this thread:

 

For everything Fw-190 we have Peter Rodeicke and the Smith and Creek publications. Is there something comparably authoritive available for the Bf-109 ?

 

Jean Claude mermet's book is probably best out of there, especially if you are interested of little details and differences between models.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Messerschmitt-Bf-109-complete-monography/dp/2916403140

 

http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2016/05/12/bf-109-bible/

In my opinion, simplest way to make late G6 available is just to add possibility to fit MW/50 and Erla hood to current G6. That way it would not affect too much for skinning, it would be realistic (many of the late G6's were still flying with old tail anyway) and there would still be little external difference to G14.

 

"Icing of the cake" would be to have tall tail wheel available as option to all late G's (same as k4 but not recratable), as it was IRL.

 

if we ever get another 109, i really hope it will be Erla built G10. Would be first time in any sim, externally different to K4 and great performance.

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6 hours ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

14 was in time for D Day so June/July. 

 First G-14s appeared in Aug '44.

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G-6 and Erla:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/JG3/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109G6-Erla-Stab-II.JG3-Kurt-Brandle-WNr-26058-Schiphol-Nov-1943-01.html


 

First G-14s arrived at the western front in 1944 July:

https://twitter.com/downedwarbirds/status/843812793728032770?lang=hu

Messerschmitt Bf 109G-14 Erla Industrieplatz Delitzsch, 4 July 1944 :
c4426468900a511bb63540eb105963cd.jpg

 

Edited by -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter

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Also, according to the reference below, the G14 operated in the Western front in July 1944:

 

Prein,  J. & Rodeike, P. (1992). Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G, and K Series: An Illustrated Study. Schiffer Military History.

Edited by SCG_Riksen

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1 hour ago, SCG_Riksen said:

Also, according to the reference below, the G14 operated in the Western front in July 1944:

 

Prein,  J. & Rodeike, P. (1992). Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G, and K Series: An Illustrated Study. Schiffer Military History.

The book says summer of '44. Production began in July '44.

 

I can find no G-14s operating with JGs until Aug. '44. http://www.ww2.dk/

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1 minute ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

I don't think so:
1.thumb.PNG.2b5912f2895100fa53e2f1bfdb89d840.PNG

I mean that could very well include August '44

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36 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

The book says summer of '44. Production began in July '44.

 

I can find no G-14s operating with JGs until Aug. '44. http://www.ww2.dk/

Correct, G6's with MW/50 operating from june-july, G14 from august on.

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6 minutes ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

I don't think so:
1.thumb.PNG.2b5912f2895100fa53e2f1bfdb89d840.PNG

 

August is still summer.  You have posted some evidence showing late July as possible and I find it plausible despite my understanding it was August before G14s started appearing.  Though I would like to see some further evidence but alas the above is not it.

 

Early G14 production was basically mixed with late G6 and it would be all but impossible to tell the difference.

Edited by ICDP

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For a new 109, I'd like to see the G10. Late G6 and G14 are almost the exact same thing by a different name. Alternatively an MW50 optional mod to the G6 without the Erla Haub canopy and larger tail would be an interesting example of a field swapped/upgraded G6. 

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4 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Messerschmitt Bf 109G-14 Erla Industrieplatz Delitzsch, 4 July 1944 :

 

That airfield was not an operational Luftwaffe airfield, it was used for finalizing and commissioning Bf109's from the Erla factories in Leipzig.

 

The aircraft in the picture are brand new and lack tactical markings, so weren't part of a squadron at the time. If they were there in July, operational use in August might just have been possible.

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2 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

The book says summer of '44. Production began in July '44.

 

I can find no G-14s operating with JGs until Aug. '44. http://www.ww2.dk/

 

True. Thanks for the additional source.

 

Cheers

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4 hours ago, DB605 said:

Correct, G6's with MW/50 operating from june-july, G14 from august on.


G-5/AS tested as of September 1943

 

G-5/AS in production December 1943


G-5/AS with MW 50 since April 1944 the latest in ops (JG11, Knoke, Specht) - Quasi G14/AS

 

250 sets of mod kits for G-6 with MW modification ordered May 44

 

G-14 first captured and evaluated by Brits 22 July 44 over Normandy 


From Werknummer appears to be G-6/U2 finished / modded as G-14.

Note that /U2s already had the GM1 tank so it was easy conversion .

 

‘A New Sub-Type of the Me. 109G

 

    At 09:30 hours on 22nd July, a Me.109G-14 was shot down by light A.A. fire near Fontenay-le-Poesnel, making a good belly-landing in a grass field, only 800 yards away from the enemy lines.  An obstruction post was hit before the aircraft came to rest, and severe damage was done to the starboard mainplane.

   This aircraft is the first of its sub-type to be identified, and presents a number of interesting features.  At the present stage of the war the most interesting are, perhaps, those which point to the very short time elapsing between its leaving the factory and its destruction.  Technically the aircraft is of interest as it was carrying a special tank containing a fluid known to the Germans as "MW50".  The power boosting qualities of this fluid will be described under the heading of "Engine" below.

   Apart from the fitting of this tank and the installation of FuG 16 ZY, this aircraft is almost identical with the Me.109 G-6/U2.’

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Is it the Erla hood, or the tall tail, or both that impact skins? I would think if you were going to do a G-6 (Late) version you might add in the tail and canopy and make the different engines as mods, and maybe add a MW-50 mod to the early G-6's as well to support mixed units later in the war? 

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6 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

I don't think so:
1.thumb.PNG.2b5912f2895100fa53e2f1bfdb89d840.PNG

You are aware that August is still summer 1944 right?

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11 minutes ago, 357th_Dog said:

You are aware that August is still summer 1944 right?

You are aware that he said Production started in july, when they was already at the front then.

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On 10/31/2019 at 9:06 AM, sevenless said:

 

Honestly from the external view I can´t. Perhaps our 109 expert @VO101Kurfurst can answer that?

 

 

I have been using the higher oil cooler port on the port engine cowl as an ID aid.

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21 minutes ago, ICDP said:

 

I have been using the higher oil cooler port on the port engine cowl as an ID aid.

 

Thanks. Just to make clear I understood you correctly. You mean the service hatch (marked in red circle on pics below), which is higher on K4 and G10, than on G14/AS?

 

K4-1.jpg

G10-1.jpg

G14_AS-1.jpg

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22 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Thanks. Just to make clear I understood you correctly. You mean the service hatch (marked in red circle on pics below), which is higher on K4 and G10, than on G14/AS?

 

Yes, you can use this method to easily identify the 109 subtype during aggressive manoeuvring.

 

😉

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10 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

I don't think so:
1.thumb.PNG.2b5912f2895100fa53e2f1bfdb89d840.PNG

Summer is from June 21 to Sept 21.

5 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

G-14 first captured and evaluated by Brits 22 July 44 over Normandy 


From Werknummer appears to be G-6/U2 finished / modded as G-14.

Note that /U2s already had the GM1 tank so it was easy conversion .

No mention of what the WNr is and what unit.

Edited by MiloMorai

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15 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:


G-5/AS tested as of September 1943

 

G-5/AS in production December 1943


G-5/AS with MW 50 since April 1944 the latest in ops (JG11, Knoke, Specht) - Quasi G14/AS

 

 

This seems to be a misunderstanding because there were no "production" 109G-5/AS

From109g-012.thumb.jpg.05c2c0b578ed3b5102792300185a36ed.jpg109g-015.thumb.jpg.415cc51f724f1cf377cf0b47b8d4438d.jpg

Although the intention was to convert 176 G-5 and G-5/R2 to G-5/AS, in the end there were only 16 G-5/AS in total. A total of 325 G-6/ASs were built  along with 1,701 G-14/AS, all by Mtt Regensburg and 135 G-14/AS from Erla.

109g-011a.jpg

109g-016.jpg

Edited by NZTyphoon
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A little tid0bit I came across on the use of flaps, 109G2 manual says you cannot operate flaps above 250kph, and it takes 4 turns of the wheel to get them to 20 degrees (takeoff position).

 

One turn of the flap wheel gives 5 degree of flap which means 3-4 grabs of the wheel by the pilot.

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On 11/1/2019 at 3:12 AM, SCG_Sinerox said:

The g10 is much more aerodynamically cleaner and has a stronger engine. So yes it would be faster down low. The as has a bigger supercharger and can go faster down low because its also aerodynamically cleaner to! Not by a lot but a bit


I am not sure, while the later cowling seems more aerodynamic than the bulges looks like the different propeller is a bit less efficient for low altitude top speed, if you compare the German specs sheets for the G-6, G-6/AS, G-14, G-14/AS, the normal ones are listed faster at sea level than their AS counterparts. The non-MW 50 AS engine had a bit less power at low altitude than the regular 605, but with MW 50 they both had equal power.

For example G-6 vs G-6/AS (without MW 50) and G-14 vs G-14/AS (with MW 50) at sea level.

G-6 at 1.3 ata (1250 PS with ram, 1310 PS without): 510 km/h
G-6/AS at 1.3 ata (1235 PS with ram, 1275 PS without):  500 km/h

G-6 at 1.42 ata (1440 PS with ram, 1475 PS without): 530 km/h
G-6/AS with 1.42 ata (1400 PS with ram, 1435 PS without): 520 km/h

G-14 at 1.7 ata (1740 PS with ram, 1800 PS without): 568 km/h 
G-14/ASM at 1.7 ata (1740 PS with ram, 1800 PS without): 560 km/h

In regards to the G-10, there is one spec sheet with it listed at 562 km/h at sea level, but looking at it with more detail I noticed the engine being just "DB 605D", with 1800 PS without ram, so it seems it's the earlier DM engine rather than DB (1850 PS without ram). Then one chart showing 576 km/h with the DC engine at 1.98 ata. So who knows maybe with a DB the G-10 should be a bit below 570 km/h, basically identical to the G-14 at sea level, or a bit slower at 565-566 km/h.


 

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

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Interesting thread, some good info in here.

 

I'd like to see a G10 for no other reason than in the old il2, although I could never put my finger on quite why, it was always my favourite late war 109, and am curious to see if that would translate to this game.

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Note that the physical appearance of late model Gs could vary, according to where the 109 was built: for example, the G-14/AS and the G-10:

109g-017.jpg

109g-018.jpg

109g-019.jpg

109g-020.jpg

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17 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

Note that the physical appearance of late model Gs could vary, according to where the 109 was built: for example, the G-14/AS and the G-10:

 

Very interesting. Which puplication are those pics from?

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