Armor penetration/enetration system for MG/Cannon bullets

[Roland_HUNter]

Hello Everyone!

Its already in the game or its not implemented yet?
Because when a  7.92 mm Mg17 hit a yak from 800 meter it should not pen it.

I'm curious, because with less pen at range, it should motivate the pilots to shot from closer ranges, and not spray-and pray from 600 meter when the bullet not 100% should pen the plane surface.

Edited October 11, 2019 by -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Dude, they're made from aluminum and wood, not steel.  7.92mm absolutely will penetrate at that range.

[Gambit21]

Yep

Looks like someone needs to take a trip to the rifle range.

[Roland_HUNter]

24 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

Dude, they're made from aluminum and wood, not steel.  7.92mm absolutely will penetrate at that range.

Are u sure about that? x)
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/finding-cover-stop-bullets/

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

Majority of stressed skin aluminium on aircraft is in the range of 1-2mm thick

[Gambit21]

Yep - only at extreme ranges or very shallow angles does a rifle round of that caliber notice that there’s a skin in it’s way.

 

Plenty of energy still at 800 meters.

Penetrating engine blocks is a different conversation.

[356thFS_Melonfish]

2 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Hello Everyone!

Its already in the game or its not implemented yet?
Because when a  7.92 mm Mg17 hit a yak from 800 meter it should not pen it.

I'm curious, because with less pen at range, it should motivate the pilots to shot from closer ranges, and not spray-and pray from 600 meter when the bullet not 100% should pen the plane surface.

 

Your average plane skin is about as thick as that of a tin of baked beans...

take a tin of beans to the range, put it at 1000 yards and fire a 30cal round at it, if you hit it it'll go right through without thinking of stopping.

 

 

 

[Roland_HUNter]

I hope everyone of you know, from the Bf-109 G-2 behind the fuel tank, there isa  27mm thick armor plane, so if u shot the 109 from the back, there should be no fuel tank leak from 500-600 meter or closer.
Even 50 cal can only pen 16mm of armor of steel from 500 meter.  So :)))

[Legioneod]

2 minutes ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

I hope everyone of you know, from the Bf-109 G-2 behind the fuel tank, there isa  27mm thick armor plane, so if u shot the 109 from the back, there should be no fuel tank leak from 500-600 meter or closer.
Even 50 cal can only pen 16mm of armor of steel from 500 meter.  So :)))

Aircraft are constantly maneuvering, very rarely will you be shot straight from the back, so unless the armor covers the whole fuel tank you're gonna get a fuel leak.

 

Another question is why self sealing fuel tanks don't work in game even against small caliber rounds.

[-LUCKY-ThanksSkeletor]

Even if you are shooting directly behined it that is a lot of flying metal that could easily ricochet and puncture the tank. 

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Are u sure about that? x)

 

Absolutely. You ever shoot a 7.92 mm rifle? 

[Kurfurst]

7 minutes ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

I hope everyone of you know, from the Bf-109 G-2 behind the fuel tank, there isa  27mm thick armor plane, so if u shot the 109 from the back, there should be no fuel tank leak from 500-600 meter or closer.
Even 50 cal can only pen 16mm of armor of steel from 500 meter.  So :)))

 

 Actually it’s just several layers (about 30) of thin aluminium sheets and it does just about nothing to stop a bullet unless it’s a .303 or similar. It’s not near 30 mm steel armour plate as it would prohibitively heavy. More of scrap aluminium sheets formed into several layers of thick sandwhich and placed as a bulkhead behind the fuel tank.

 

What it did was to slow down the bullets sufficiently so that by the time it got to pilots armor plate (and passing through the fuel tank) they could no longer defeat it. This worked rather well up .50 AP provided the bullet entered beneath the fuel line. 

 

More importantly what this dural plate sandwich armor also did was to render incendiaries ineffective and they could not set the fuel tank on fire. Soviet Berezhin API rounds however remained effective so the USAAF actually made straight copies of them later in the war (M8 API iirc).

[Roland_HUNter]

9 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Absolutely. You ever shoot a 7.92 mm rifle? 

Are u read the site where they tested it?

[bzc3lk]

11 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

 Actually it’s just several layers (about 30) of thin aluminium sheets and it does just about nothing to stop a bullet unless it’s a .303 or similar. It’s not near 30 mm steel armour plate as it would prohibitively heavy. More of scrap aluminium sheets formed into several layers of thick sandwhich and placed as a bulkhead behind the fuel tank.

 

What it did was to slow down the bullets sufficiently so that by the time it got to pilots armor plate (and passing through the fuel tank) they could no longer defeat it. This worked rather well up .50 AP provided the bullet entered beneath the fuel line. 

 

More importantly what this dural plate sandwich armor also did was to render incendiaries ineffective and they could not set the fuel tank on fire. Soviet Berezhin API rounds however remained effective so the USAAF actually made straight copies of them later in the war (M8 API iirc).

 

 

 

[Roland_HUNter]

1 minute ago, bzc3lk said:

 

 

 

Thank you, at the moment I wanted to upload it ?

And do not forget, behind the pilot seat there was a 8mm armor aswell.
 

[Yogiflight]

The question is not only how thick is the material you hit, but also from which distance and at which angle. When you hit an aircraft from its six, you will have an angle of about 10°. In a distance of 8oom, where the bullets already lost a lot of speed, it is not that clear, that the bullets will penetrate the aluminum surface.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

3 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Are u sure about that? x)
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/finding-cover-stop-bullets/

 

Positive.

 

You want to stand behind some wood and aluminum?  We can prove it.

[357th_Dog]

3 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Are u sure about that? x)
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/finding-cover-stop-bullets/

You're citing something that is used to discuss cover for handgun and light rifle caliber rounds...

Comparing it with an 8mm round moving at an initial muzzle velocity in excess of 2,700 feet per second

 

[Gambit21]

There's a Briston Blenheim front half, cut-way sitting at a local air museum that you can walk inside of.

The skin on that thing is scary thin...a .22 round wouldn't even notice it below 100 yards or more if it hit straight-on.

[Roland_HUNter]

Okey guys good to see, all of you just ignoring the armor plate.
And ye, we shoud test the layered wood/aluminium against 8mm machinegun from 300-500 meter. Please somebody test it.

Edited October 11, 2019 by -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

There's lots of K98s out there.  Testing that specific round against whatever we'd like to test it against wouldn't be difficult to set up at all.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

Nobody is ignoring the armor plate, your OP was talking about bullets bouncing off the plane's surface, which apart from a few exceptions like the IL-2s, and FW-190Fs that have ~5mm steel plate on certain sections of the belly and front fuselage, it isn't going to happen.

[Gambit21]

9 minutes ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Okey guys good to see, all of you just ignoring the armor plate.
 

 

Read your own post.

[Roland_HUNter]

9 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Read your own post.

 

14 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=RoflSeal said:

Nobody is ignoring the armor plate, your OP was talking about bullets bouncing off the plane's surface, which apart from a few exceptions like the IL-2s, and FW-190Fs that have ~5mm steel plate on certain sections of the belly and front fuselage, it isn't going to happen.

Gotcha! ?

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Are u read the site where they tested it?

 

I'm quite aware of what a rifle-caliber bullet will do to thin metal at that range. I'm not convinced, however, that you are.

[DD_Arthur]

Nice to see some good old fashioned,  make it up as you go along, luftwhining again.

[216th_Jordan]

4 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Another question is why self sealing fuel tanks don't work in game even against small caliber rounds.

 

They do. The way it is implemented it doesn't show visually though. How exactly it works - I don't know.

[unreasonable]

4 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Aircraft are constantly maneuvering, very rarely will you be shot straight from the back, so unless the armor covers the whole fuel tank you're gonna get a fuel leak.

 

Another question is why self sealing fuel tanks don't work in game even against small caliber rounds.

 

Indeed: or HE shell splinters from hits meters away from the tank.

3 minutes ago, 216th_Jordan said:

 

They do. The way it is implemented it doesn't show visually though. How exactly it works - I don't know.

 

Not sure what you mean by : "It does not show visually". They do not appear to self seal against HE shell splinters from distant hits: you get very obvious fuel leaks. I have tested that for hours.

[Cpt_Siddy]

I've actually shot 5mm aluminum target plates with 7.62mm, allot. 

 

There is state from where your bullet will damage the skin but will not penetrate, sub 30deg angle at 300m is often enough to get the bullet sheer the metal and change trajectory outwards. 

There is also the random element of the bullet orientation (spin stabilized bullets don't have their point directly forward but wobble a bit about the axis of spin) when it contact the surface, so there is bout 50/50 chance it will either keyhole trough arse first or ricochet. The bullet that ricochets has still plenty of energy left, it just don't go trough the plate, and instead just change direction. 

 

And this is something I've also seen in game,  my 50. cal tracer bounce off wings of 109 few times, tho i don't know what damage it caused, so no clue how it is modeled in game.

 

Here some images of similar effects on car hood from handguns. Its not apples to apples, but the general gist is the same. There is reason why small calibers MG's were phased out during the war on fighters. 

 

And then there is this oddity 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Shooting rigid stuff at springy material can produce close calls.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Cpt_Siddy

[356thFS_Melonfish]

7 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

 

Gotcha! ?

No, you changed your argument half way through and believe you're being clever, the problem is you're just coming off as an a-hole now.

 

if we take the overall jist of your posts your luftwhine is that the 8mm mauser round is capable of penatrating a YAK's armour plate from 800 meters.

 

TBH That may well be so, but it entirely depends on the variables.

What specific mauser round are you referring to? (phosphor B or SmKL AP?)

what was it fired from? (MG17 is stated at least)
What was it fired at? (Yak, but what make and model? what year?)

what did it strike? (which armour plate?)
What angle was it shot at? (any treadhead will tell you that angle is key when armour is involved)

 

in short, consider your argument before you make it.

Pete

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, Melonfish said:

if we take the overall jist of your posts your luftwhine is that the 8mm mauser round is capable of penatrating a YAK's armour plate from 800 meters

To me it looks more the other way round

14 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Because when a  7.92 mm Mg17 hit a yak from 800 meter it should not pen it.

Because his conclusion was, people should fire at closer ranges.

[Roland_HUNter]

3 hours ago, Melonfish said:

No, you changed your argument half way through and believe you're being clever, the problem is you're just coming off as an a-hole now.

 

if we take the overall jist of your posts your luftwhine is that the 8mm mauser round is capable of penatrating a YAK's armour plate from 800 meters.

 

TBH That may well be so, but it entirely depends on the variables.

What specific mauser round are you referring to? (phosphor B or SmKL AP?)

what was it fired from? (MG17 is stated at least)
What was it fired at? (Yak, but what make and model? what year?)

what did it strike? (which armour plate?)
What angle was it shot at? (any treadhead will tell you that angle is key when armour is involved)

 

in short, consider your argument before you make it.

Pete

Do you live on Earth? Do you know what is sarcasm?

Luftwhining?
Boi I started to defend the Yak, and I did luftwhining? Okoy.
 

1.What specific mauser round are you refering to: Boi in the game for the Mg17 we have only AP rounds but yeah thank your for attacking my personal with the "luftwhining" marker. Best arguing ever.

2.Mg-17 And Bf-109
3.Yak has only 8mm armor behind the pilot back. So from 500-800 meter I should not pen it. MG-17 can pen 7mm armor of steel from 500meter at 0°

4.Vertical 0°/Horizontal 90° from 6 o'clock
 

10 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

Nice to see some good old fashioned,  make it up as you go along, luftwhining again.

Nice to see see some good old fashioned:" I ll join the conversation with some personal marking/ personal attacks and not making any argument" butt hurted arogancy again.

Edited October 12, 2019 by -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter

[356thFS_Melonfish]

3 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Do you live on Earth? Do you know what is sarcasm?

Luftwhining?
Boi I started to defend the Yak, and I did luftwhining? Okoy.
 

1.What specific mauser round are you refering to: Boi in the game for the Mg17 we have only AP rounds but yeah thank your for attacking my personal with the "luftwhining" marker. Best arguing ever.

2.Mg-17 And Bf-109
3.Yak has only 8mm armor behind the pilot back. So from 500-800 meter I should not pen it. MG-17 can pen 7mm armor of steel from 500meter at 0°

4.Vertical 0°/Horizontal 90° from 6 o'clock
 

Nice to see see some good old fashioned:" I ll join the conversation with some personal marking/ personal attacks and not making any argument" butt hurted arogancy again.

Yikes, where to begin?

First off flower, nobody has made any personal insults, if anything they were observations, a personal insult is something that outlines a character flaw or percieved fault, for instance "You have the emotional range of a watercress sandwich" see? we're simply observing on your post, i.e. whining.

 

now, with regards to "Do you know what is sarcasm?" i'm sorry but i've never heard of that term before...

again an observation, you changed your argument then acted like you'd caught someone out, when pulled on that you went with the "it's sarcasm!" argument, this is classic schrodingers A-hole tactics, quite obvious tbh, if you wish to make a point on a forum consider it and lay it out properly instead of going off half cocked.

 

'Boi' should be spelled Boy, and i'm probably old enough to be your father...

 

Now your actual query.

the MG17 ammo if all AP would be S.M.K l'Spur ammo, a tracer coating on a short steel core.

 

This ammunition was a 6.5gram (101gr) bullet and had a muzzle velocity of 810 m/s (2,657 ft/s) it could penatrate 18mm of RHA at a 90° impact angle and 13mm of RHA at a 30° impact angle at 100m.

 

After calculating muzzle velocity drop off (almost half at 400m alone) i'd actually agree with you that you'd likely not penatrate the armour plate of a Yak (assuming it's 8mm of RHA) if firing from the mathmatically improbable position you'd listed.

I'd be a little unsure about 500m but i'm pretty confident 800m would see you safe to fly another day.

 

Now flower, that took me a whole 5 minutes of googling, before you post another whine and start clashing against other members of the forum maybe, and i'm just spitballing ideas here, maybe look it up?

Pete

 

[Roland_HUNter]

11 minutes ago, Melonfish said:

Yikes, where to begin?

First off flower, nobody has made any personal insults, if anything they were observations, a personal insult is something that outlines a character flaw or percieved fault, for instance "You have the emotional range of a watercress sandwich" see? we're simply observing on your post, i.e. whining.

 

now, with regards to "Do you know what is sarcasm?" i'm sorry but i've never heard of that term before...

again an observation, you changed your argument then acted like you'd caught someone out, when pulled on that you went with the "it's sarcasm!" argument, this is classic schrodingers A-hole tactics, quite obvious tbh, if you wish to make a point on a forum consider it and lay it out properly instead of going off half cocked.

 

'Boi' should be spelled Boy, and i'm probably old enough to be your father...

 

Now your actual query.

the MG17 ammo if all AP would be S.M.K l'Spur ammo, a tracer coating on a short steel core.

 

This ammunition was a 6.5gram (101gr) bullet and had a muzzle velocity of 810 m/s (2,657 ft/s) it could penatrate 18mm of RHA at a 90° impact angle and 13mm of RHA at a 30° impact angle at 100m.

 

After calculating muzzle velocity drop off (almost half at 400m alone) i'd actually agree with you that you'd likely not penatrate the armour plate of a Yak (assuming it's 8mm of RHA) if firing from the mathmatically improbable position you'd listed.

I'd be a little unsure about 500m but i'm pretty confident 800m would see you safe to fly another day.

 

Now flower, that took me a whole 5 minutes of googling, before you post another whine and start clashing against other members of the forum maybe, and i'm just spitballing ideas here, maybe look it up?

Pete

 

So if somebody start asking: Is the armor penetration is implemented or not, because he don't want to believe what happening in the game, is it whining?
Okey.

bzc3lk and Cpt_Siddy proved maybe i'm right.
But from the begining everybody talked with me like i was a retarded who don't know physics and want STRONGER Luftwaffe MG, when I just started to defend the Reds.
Exmplain this to me please.

And  should I acted like?" Oh yeah you guys are right and please insult me more."

"nobody has made any personal insults"
Are u sure?
" Nice to see some good old fashioned,  make it up as you go along, luftwhining again. "

Edited October 12, 2019 by -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter

[Lusekofte]

During my many huntingtrips up on the mountain I have seen quite a few crashed ww 2 planes. 

Ju 87.  Ju 88 and HE 111. All of them shot by previous hunters with shotgun pellets. They had no problem penetrating the aluminum. 

IL 2 and HS 129 had a tub like construction of armored steel around the pilot with intention to protect against small arm projectiles. But that made the suffer aerodynamically 

[356thFS_Melonfish]

20 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Hello Everyone!

Its already in the game or its not implemented yet?
Because when a  7.92 mm Mg17 hit a yak from 800 meter it should not pen it.

I'm curious, because with less pen at range, it should motivate the pilots to shot from closer ranges, and not spray-and pray from 600 meter when the bullet not 100% should pen the plane surface.

For the record, this indicates you're talking about the skin of a plane, you do not mention the armour plate behind the pilot you specifically mention the surface of the plane. hence the reactions to your post, we didn't think you were "retarded" we're merely incredilous at your absurd claim. this is normal.

 

 

12 minutes ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

So if somebody start asking: Is the armor penetration is implemented or not, because he don't want to believe what happening in the game, is it whining?
Okey.

bzc3lk and Cpt_Siddy proved maybe i'm right.
But from the begining everybody talked with me like i was a retarded who don't know physics and want STRONGER Luftwaffe MG, when I just started to defend the Reds.
Exmplain this to me please.

And  should I acted like?" Oh yeah you guys are right and please insult me more."

"nobody has made any personal insults"
Are u sure?
" Nice to see some good old fashioned,  make it up as you go along, luftwhining again. "

 

This isn't a personal insult, seriously, he's just pointing out you're whining and making it up as you go along which if you re-read the entire thread it does appear that you're doing so from a casual observer.

again i refer to thinking about the point you wish to make before posting.

 

a personal insult is directed at your character, personality, or individual traits. unless you accept that Whining is a trait of yours? in which case yes, that would constitute a personal insult from DD_Arthur.

 

[216th_Jordan]

14 hours ago, unreasonable said:

Not sure what you mean by : "It does not show visually". They do not appear to self seal against HE shell splinters from distant hits: you get very obvious fuel leaks. I have tested that for hours.

 

I did not find the original source but what Gruber describes matches what I kept in mind from the DEV explanation: (now if there is a bug with HE splinters I do not know - I suppose you have reported the findings)

 

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by 216th_Jordan

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

17 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

Nice to see some good old fashioned,  make it up as you go along, luftwhining again.

 

How is this a luftwhine?  It's more of a redwhine if anything.

Edited October 12, 2019 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Rei-sen]

20 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

There's a Briston Blenheim front half, cut-way sitting at a local air museum that you can walk inside of.

Did you mean Lancaster or there's other museum that I'm unaware of? 

[Gambit21]

7 minutes ago, Arthur-A said:

Did you mean Lancaster or there's other museum that I'm unaware of? 

 

Yep - Lancaster.