Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
LUZITANO

IL-2 Battle of Berlin

Recommended Posts

With the Battle of Berlin, Normandy and several extra Allied collector airplanes it is possible to make the late war set of war birds


IL-2 BATTLE OF BERLIN

 

Set of aircraft

Ta-152 H-1           La-7

Fw 190 A-9          Yak-3

Me 109 G-10        Yak-9U

He 219 A-7           IL-2 Type 3

He 162 A-2           Tu-2S  

 

AI
Pe-2 1944 model (To be turned into a separate collector)

 

Completing the late war set

I think the biggest question in this series is which Pe-2 to choose. 210 or 359 series? As I suggested the Battle of Normandy so the Liberation of Bieolo Russia is out of the question. Anyway the suggestion of the battle of Berlin that I am doing is important because it incorporates another jet that was used operationally during the WWII as a bomber and can also be used on the Rheinland map. The La-7 is an airplane capable of facing both the 109K and the 190D. The Ta-152H is not strategically important in east-front warfare where combat takes place at low altitude, but it is an indispensable aircraft that can be used in high-altitude combat against the Bodenplatte P-51D. The battle of Berlin shares the same planes as the 1945 Rheinland map

Collector's
La-7 with with option to add one more cannon 
109 G-10 or Ta-152H-1?

Map
I haven't made the cut yet. I'm expecting players' suggestions

Some pictures of Berlin battle and map from the internet
 

Spoiler

 

219437512_Berlingermany45.thumb.jpg.30d61d5b71fb3efb3947214bbf13021b.jpg

2025265430_Berlinin1945.thumb.jpg.88758901a6af8b857c69526a869af46e.jpgberlin2.png.68826e6d558f4340e0a1c4dc4a33bb9b.png

 

 

Considerations
This is an important battle, fundamental in the context of World War II, and it provides for the Reds later models of the Soviet Union as the dear La-7 and Yak-3, plus the IL-2 "arrow". Germany will have the full late set of fighters if it considers only the main models. It's perfect for interacting with Bodenplatte


Here is the suggestion to discuss and make the necessary modifications ;)

 

Edited by LUZITANO
  • Like 3
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a very good suggestion if I do say so myself. I think this will either come after Bodenplatte, or the Pacific. Doing the Battle of Berlin as one of the last makes sense as it was the LAST battle in Europe.

With the plane set, I'd add an IL-10 and the Me-163 Komet.

 

Other than that, excellent Luzianto.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Historic picture of the important air battle for Berlin.

blue-sky-clouds-0.jpg

  • Like 1
  • Haha 4
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

Historic picture of the important air battle for Berlin.

<pic>

 

Is this before or after the recent spotting changes?

  • Haha 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

 

Is this before or after the recent spotting changes?

 

Difficult to tell when there are no planes present at all.   Just like the air battle for Berlin.............

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Novice-Flyer said:

the Me-163 Komet

 

What, all the Me 163s sitting on the ground due to lack of fuel, or the ones that were obliterated due to the unstable fuel?

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wana replace one of the Yaks with a P63 personally. 

Replace the IL-2 with an IL-10 

 

Same reason I wana think of a german plane to replace the Ta152 or 190A9 with another. But I think we've reached the end of plausible alternatives for that faction aside from multicrew large bombers the team isnt likely to tackle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kudos to your minds for next scenarios, but

Battle of Berlin is as each european 1945 szenario.. a boring setting tbh, compared to what is still left.

Allied Planes and Flak Explosions, beside that it could be more interesting for TC.
 

And compared to the Moscow Map, why should Berlin be able to get bombed if the city of Moscow isnt. Means Berlin would be the west border of the map.

 

Northern Africa

Italy

Pacific

...are scenarios that would probably generate money, which should be the main prio for a company.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A He-219 would be pretty useless without RAF night bombers.

 

In fact, if we’re going to get a Berlin map, I’d rather have it in the context of Bomber Command’s raids on the city, with intense night battles, rather than the Luftwaffe’s failed kamikaze attacks, mistel missions, and a few scattered ground support sorties and fighter patrols.

 

Of course, with the game’s limitations on large cities and large aircraft crews, it’s doubtful that we’ll get either, at least for a while.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A Battle of Berlin as a Battle over Berlin wouldn't be something anyone would buy, because it's boring AF and Prototypes and What Ifs are better left to Games like War Thunder.

 

The last proper Air Action seen by the Wehrmacht in Defense of Berlin was during Bagration. For the Vistula Oder Offensive Operation Bodenplatte had left the Eastern Airspace completely open, thus Airpower was virtually Non-Existent over the Eastern Front during that Period giving the VVS free reign.

 

Pretty much everything after 2nd of January '45 isn't worth mentioning. We had Planes but neither Ammo nor Fuel. The Number of successful daytime Combat Sorties (meaning Plane and Crew returning in Serviceable Condition) is in the Double Digits from that Date to the End for the entire Luftwaffe.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

The Number of successful daytime Combat Sorties (meaning Plane and Crew returning in Serviceable Condition) is in the Double Digits from that Date to the End for the entire Luftwaffe.

I'd say why not. The SP Career could have just few sorties a month starting from February.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Arthur-A said:

I'd say why not. The SP Career could have just few sorties a month starting from February.

Still, Bagration would be a nicer Choice. You have Evacuations from the Baltic States, the Baltic Sea, Warsaw, etc. the late VVS Planes like Yak-3, La-7, Yak-9U, Tu-2, maybe even P-63 or late Type P-40.

Interesting German Additions would be Me-410, G-6AS or MW50 and maybe He-115.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Still, Bagration would be a nicer Choice

I agree, I hope we'll see it in future. However, Battle of Berlin could be afterwards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/15/2019 at 1:36 PM, Novice-Flyer said:

the Me-163 Komet.

 

 

that would be totally impractical, but awesome!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

A Battle of Berlin as a Battle over Berlin wouldn't be something anyone would buy, because it's boring AF and Prototypes and What Ifs are better left to Games like War Thunder.

 

The last proper Air Action seen by the Wehrmacht in Defense of Berlin was during Bagration. For the Vistula Oder Offensive Operation Bodenplatte had left the Eastern Airspace completely open, thus Airpower was virtually Non-Existent over the Eastern Front during that Period giving the VVS free reign.

 

Pretty much everything after 2nd of January '45 isn't worth mentioning. We had Planes but neither Ammo nor Fuel. The Number of successful daytime Combat Sorties (meaning Plane and Crew returning in Serviceable Condition) is in the Double Digits from that Date to the End for the entire Luftwaffe.

According to the Article “Death Throes of the Luftwaffe”, in the magazine “Spitfires over Berlin: The Air War in Europe 1945”, Luftflotte Reich flew a 438 sorties of all types on April 24th 1945. Incredibly there was still some Luftwaffe units flying and fighting from within Berlin itself that day, such as I./JG 11, which left Tempelhof that morning and moved to Gatow. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/23/2019 at 5:27 AM, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

A Battle of Berlin as a Battle over Berlin wouldn't be something anyone would buy, because it's boring AF and Prototypes and What Ifs are better left to Games like War Thunder.

which prototype or where you read any prototype suggestions?
It seems that you decided to speak any bullshit that comes to mind or not read the post

 

On 10/23/2019 at 5:27 AM, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

Pretty much everything after 2nd of January '45 isn't worth mentioning. We had Planes but neither Ammo nor Fuel. The Number of successful daytime Combat Sorties (meaning Plane and Crew returning in Serviceable Condition) is in the Double Digits from that Date to the End for the entire Luftwaffe.

This opinion is devoid of historical background. It shows a total lack of knowledge about air war. War is not just what you want war to be

 

On 10/23/2019 at 10:56 PM, AndytotheD said:

According to the Article “Death Throes of the Luftwaffe”, in the magazine “Spitfires over Berlin: The Air War in Europe 1945”, Luftflotte Reich flew a 438 sorties of all types on April 24th 1945. Incredibly there was still some Luftwaffe units flying and fighting from within Berlin itself that day, such as I./JG 11, which left Tempelhof that morning and moved to Gatow. 

Thanks for explaining
 

Edited by LUZITANO
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/24/2019 at 4:56 AM, AndytotheD said:

According to the Article “Death Throes of the Luftwaffe”, in the magazine “Spitfires over Berlin: The Air War in Europe 1945”, Luftflotte Reich flew a 438 sorties of all types on April 24th 1945. Incredibly there was still some Luftwaffe units flying and fighting from within Berlin itself that day, such as I./JG 11, which left Tempelhof that morning and moved to Gatow. 

In the air the Battle of Berlin was certainly not a one-sided affair. On 16 April 1945, the first day of the Berlin offensive, the Luftwaffe even achieved 891 sorties. At this date Luftwaffenkommando Nordost, responsible for the defence of Berlin, had more than 1400 aircraft available. Over the next days there were large scale air battles over the Oder front and both sides suffered heavy losses. On 18 April alone Luftwaffe pilots reported over 100 victories and between 16 and 20 April the Soviet 16th Air Army reported almost 500 destroyed enemy aircraft. These numbers are certainly overclaims, but it shows the intensity of the fighting in the air.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me the very first days of Operation Barbarossa (focusing on the north and Leningrad) should be the first choice

We can have old Soviet A/C such as the I-15

and even an earlier Ju-87 Stuka and Donier 17

  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/30/2019 at 10:45 AM, cripplehawk said:

For me the very first days of Operation Barbarossa (focusing on the north and Leningrad) should be the first choice

We can have old Soviet A/C such as the I-15

and even an earlier Ju-87 Stuka and Donier 17

I consider it a great idea, too ... although I prefer a Battle of Finland because the variety of options is quite wide they used some allied planes

I  think... a lot of people want to fly the La-7, Yak-3 and Ta-152
 

On 10/15/2019 at 3:07 PM, DD_Arthur said:

 

Difficult to tell when there are no planes present at all.   Just like the air battle for Berlin.............

5 minutes of research will not gonna kill you before saying any ignorance that comes to your mind. :) 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate to be this discouraging guy, but when it comes to german side all planes you mentioned, except Bf-109G-10 and maybe FW-190A-9, are low serie, some close to prototype fighters. Good luck obtaining precise data, cockpits, test flight parameters documentation, manuals and other stuff.

And He-219 was a night fighter and we don't have any night bombers.

Not to mention the concept of domnating in some 750km/h Ta-152 or Do-335 when there were between 44 - 67  Ta-152H-1 and about 40, partially unfinished Do-335 prototypes of all variants and no evidence of a singe use of Do-335 in any combat.

I read a book of a German pilot from that period, they had over 100 fighters at their airport, but they could only send patrols of 2 or 4 machines because they had no fuel and not many pilots.

Edited by Bies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

13 hours ago, LUZITANO said:

5 minutes of research will not gonna kill you before saying any ignorance that comes to your mind. :) 

 

Five minutes of casual research shows no mention of air operations over Berlin in  April 1945.    Try it. 

 I notice that you have failed to provide any details of any air battle for Berlin either and the two pictures of the battle of Berlin you have posted do not appear to show any signs of battle whatsoever.

 

Btw, I do lke the name of this magazine “Spitfires over Berlin: The Air War in Europe 1945”   It suggests something that never took place.  The only Spitfires that flew over Berlin in WW2 were unarmed.

 

Please carry on insulting people who do not share your opinions:salute:

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Following the disaster of the Ardennes Offensive and Operation Bodenplatte, the Luftwaffe opted to shift its primary fighter efforts east to oppose the Soviet Vistula-Oder offensive.  JG2, 26, 27 and 53 would stay in the West, while JG300 and 301 would remain in Germany for the moment (both would eventually be shifted east as well).  All other prop day fighter units were transferred; somewhere on the order of 22 Gruppen.  When the Russian offensive wrapped up at the beginning of February, the front line in the East is right where it is shown as the starting point of the map in the first post - on the Oder river. 

 

So that map would  cover fighting from January of 1945 through the end of the war in Europe.  It also contains some of the prime targets of the 8th Air Force throughout 1944 and 1945 (Berlin, Halle/Leuna/Merseburg, Magdeburg) which were the sight of some massive defense of the Reich battles.  In the final months of the war the 8th was active over the Berlin area, claimed a number of kills in the area, even as far east as Frankfurt-an-der-Oder, and in the process accidentally crossed swords with Soviet fighters on a number of occasions (which could make for some really fun and unique multiplayer scenarios).  Likewise the British filed claims for kills around Schwerin and Rechlin (both of which are on this map) right up to the end of the war.

 

While it is true that the Luftwaffe was running out of fuel and pilots, what resources they could gather were used.  John Weal wrote this about JG51 in his book Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Aces of the Russian Front: "On April 28th the Stabstaffel disbanded ... <removed for brevity> ... they were transferred south to the Berlin area.  It says something of the men, or the machines - or both - that in three weeks they had claimed 115 kills for the loss of 5 of their own.  On 29 April ...".  And that's just one Jagdgeschwader out of many.  There was clearly a lot of air combat taking place.

 

I like the idea overall.  I'd probably opt to ditch the He219 (no night fighting in the game) and Do335 (didn't really take part in WW2 at all) and add a Ju-188 or some other late war Luftwaffe bomber.  I'd argue for adding a P-47M to go with the Ta-152H and Yak-9U as collector planes that barely saw combat.  And then I'd argue heavily for adding AI B-17s and Lancasters (yeah, yeah, can't be done - but it really shouldn't be impossible).  That would allow for a mixed set with Kuban, Bodenplatte and Normandy that gives you a near complete late war Europe lineup.

 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

Five minutes of casual research shows no mention of air operations over Berlin in  April 1945.    Try it. 

 I notice that you have failed to provide any details of any air battle for Berlin either and the two pictures of the battle of Berlin you have posted do not appear to show any signs of battle whatsoever.

 

Btw, I do lke the name of this magazine “Spitfires over Berlin: The Air War in Europe 1945”   It suggests something that never took place.  The only Spitfires that flew over Berlin in WW2 were unarmed.

 

And I need to prove that there was air combat over Berlin in the greatest war in the history of mankind? Oh boy... So there was no air combat in Berlin, what's next? The earth is flat?

 

16 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

Please carry on insulting people who do not share your opinions:salute:

Please carry on sabotage in my post. You made great contributions like "The battle is on sky" and an unnecessary misinformation. Try searching more, you will find several air combats over Berlin the war has not stopped just because you think so

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LUZITANO said:

And I need to prove that there was air combat over Berlin in the greatest war in the history of mankind? Oh boy... 

 

Since this thread seems to ask the Devs to produce a large scale map of a major european capital and a series of planes of which at least three seem to have seen very little or even no combat at all I would say yes, show us what you've got.

 

Is it going to be a problem?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

The only Spitfires that flew over Berlin in WW2 were unarmed.

J.E.Johnson, flying from Celle, led his squadron (very armed) over Berlin which by then was already under Soviet artillery fire. They ran into a gaggle of Yaks that, after some suspicious circling with Johnsons squadron, broke off for machine-gunning things down low. Johnson was then forbidden to ever fly over Berlin again for the remaining days of the war.

 

He also writes that they found plenty of German aircraft that they shot up. But once the network of German airfields east of the Oder was overrun, that was the end of "defense of Berlin" and they just hunted down wherever they found them, which for the RAF was mostly in or around Denmark.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, KW_1979 said:

While it is true that the Luftwaffe was running out of fuel and pilots, what resources they could gather were used.  John Weal wrote this about JG51 in his book Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Aces of the Russian Front: "On April 28th the Stabstaffel disbanded ... <removed for brevity> ... they were transferred south to the Berlin area.  It says something of the men, or the machines - or both - that in three weeks they had claimed 115 kills for the loss of 5 of their own.  On 29 April ...".  And that's just one Jagdgeschwader out of many.  There was clearly a lot of air combat taking place.

 

I think "claimed" is the key word here.

Among the high-claimers was Heinz Marquardt, who some say is actually the leading Dora ace (with north of 20 kills - as opposed to Dortenmann's 18).

AFAIK, those high claims are not supported by soviet archives, but the Luftwaffe remained a factor worth considering in the East. Even by those last days of war.

 

I think the key factor is that the VVS never managed to apply airpower to achieve anihilation of the Luftwaffe. In contrast, they limited their operation to tactical missions over the front and wouldn't try to destroy the Luftwaffe's fighting capabilities.

With relatively many assets (except for fuel) concentrated in a relatively confined area (compared to a year before), the Luftwaffe somewhat re-gained some of it's strength. Hence the increased kill-claims.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I certainly can’t make any arguments for or against those claims.  But they help illustrate the point that air combat was still taking place in this time frame.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the devs should do Battle of Berlin ONLY if they know that a Pacific Battle can't arrive in the next 2 installments after BON. Sure, we'd probably get an AI Heavy bomber like the Lancaster or B-17, but it would only extend the Allied Bodenplatte Pilot Career by another month from March 29th-May-8th 1945. Therefore the focus would likely be on the Eastern Front advance from Late 1944- May 1945. If the devs do Berlin after BON, and then go to the Pacific, it would leave an open gap between BOK planes and Soviet BOBE planes, and IMO an early 1944 Eastern front battle like Bagration would have to be next like BON is to BOBP. 

This is why I believe they shouldn't do Berlin after BON and instead do something like Finland.

If they decide to do Berlin a plane I'd like to see is the He-162, then again it entered service 2 weeks before the end of the war so it would likely be close to the bottom of German planes for BOBE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I certainly would love to see Fw-190 D11 and D13 and Ta-152 H0/H1 in a 1944/45 setting, whatever that might be called. Battle of the Vistula to the Oder perhaps or Goetterdaemmerung?

 

 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...