WOW on Physiology

[KG200_Achilleus]

Of course when i say roll i meant a spiral roll..

i guess you noo-bees don't know what i mean don't you??

Edited October 6, 2019 by KG200_Achilleus

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Do different levels of A.I pilot have different "G" tolerance levels, Ace has high tolerance and novice has limited tolerance ?

 

No

[gimpy117]

i like it a lot now, if you're getting bounced by a faster foe you can pull inside of his gun run and he can't do crazy high G pulls anymore to get guns on target. did that to a 190 in the early spit today. then ran him down and lightly damaged him. he then panicked, pulled to hard and lawn darted 

[Feathered_IV]

Yep, it is working well.  It brings a new and welcome tactical layer, where the pilot of a weaker aircraft can seek to seek an advantage by wearing out a higher performing adversary.

[Legioneod]

27 minutes ago, gimpy117 said:

i like it a lot now, if you're getting bounced by a faster foe you can pull inside of his gun run and he can't do crazy high G pulls anymore to get guns on target. did that to a 190 in the early spit today. then ran him down and lightly damaged him. he then panicked, pulled to hard and lawn darted 

 

Yep, this has saved my life on a number of occasions, pilots can no longer pull insane Gs to get a gun solution like they used to.

Physiology is one of my favorite features of the new update.

[Gambit21]

Love it.

You can pull into a blackout maneuver and the other guy can’t follow without blacking out...usually. 

[LLv24_Zami]

I like this a lot. It's working very well, I wouldn't change anything.

[Blackhawk_FR]

12 hours ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

we all know about those G-factor graphs, and for sure those graphs has nothing to do with the last update..

Just one example, two rolls in a row with 450klm in game and you will blacked out in 2 sec..

come on now..even an untrained girl can do better than this.. 

anyway, have fun..

 

A roll doesn't induce any G load (well, it will stay between +1 and -1 if it's done perfectly). 

If you get a black out on your rolls, it's because you are pulling in the same time, and so, generating positive Gs. 

 

For the "untrained girl" part: 

1. I would like to see your face will trying to resist against a long 4/5G turn. 
2. A girl would probably do it better than you. Womans are strictly equals to mans on G tolerance. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[KG200_Achilleus]

1 hour ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

A roll doesn't induce any G load (well, it will stay between +1 and -1 if it's done perfectly). 

If you get a black out on your rolls, it's because you are pulling in the same time, and so, generating positive Gs. 

 

For the "untrained girl" part: 

1. I would like to see your face will trying to resist against a long 4/5G turn. 
2. A girl would probably do it better than you. Womans are strictly equals to mans on G tolerance. 

In fact, if you try to make a spiral roll(full rudder + 10% elevator) you probably don't complete even 1 roll before you are totally blacked, not 2 rolls as i mentioned before..

sorry i was mistaken..

So..with only one “light” spiral roll with 400+klm and you are blacked, its only 2-3 seconds with 4-5g load..;)

Another G factor foul is a medium not hard level turn at 400klm+ with only 20%-30% of the elevator way(not too hard),and again in 3-4 seconds you are blacked..

And yet..you trying to tell us that this is the real thing indeed?well with all respect,keep it for your self mate!

With those G factors the game becomes more challenging indeed and needs more skills to overcome this difficulty i totally agree and i respect those who like it, but for sure its not the real thing.Even modern compact sims with twice the speed can do harder maneuvers than we can do now in il2..

Salute!

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by KG200_Achilleus

[Blackhawk_FR]

37 minutes ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

but for sure its not the real thing

 

To be sure it's not the real thing, you need to: 

 

- Experience G loads IRL

- Confirm it with real tests

- Knowing exactly how much G you take in game (which is impossible at the moment)

[KG200_Achilleus]

So we have two things for sure,

it is not sure if it is not the real thing because of those reasons,

and nor it is for sure for the same reasons..

the only fact we have for sure now is that for sure almost no average person(from professional pilots) blacks out in just 2-3 sec at a force not over 3-5G’s..

even kinds at a luna park can handle more G’s that we now in this game(i hope this example now has covered you,if not the girl)...

[HagarTheHorrible]

2 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

 

2. A girl would probably do it better than you. Womans are strictly equals to mans on G tolerance. 

 

Not really true.

 

My wife has always struggled with gravity, but then she is errrrrrr, quiet big on top, if you follow my drift.  ?

 

I expect "Pilot physiology" will be tweaked as time goes on, but they are real life limitations and most importantly they apply to everyone, in the game, equally.

Edited October 7, 2019 by HagarTheHorrible

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

The new G thing is a good addition. It might have some niggles here and there. I have experience some RL G - forces a few years ago. Felt heavy, literally?Maximum was 7.1G for a 360deg tightening turn. No greyout or blackout, but extremely heavy feeling. The G suit sure helped. Was also subjected to longer term 3-5G forces, much more tolerable with the suit. 

 

Did some quick research and it seems that the USAAF suit gave pilots roughly a 2G edge over pilots without it. Hellcat pilots were using suits since late 1944. There is some anecdotal but no written evidence of Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm using suits as well in Spitfires and Hurricanes. Earliest mention is Operation Husky and in Spitfires. 

[HagarTheHorrible]

3 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

Did some quick research and it seems that the USAAF suit gave pilots roughly a 2G edge over pilots without it. Hellcat pilots were using suits since late 1944. There is some anecdotal but no written evidence of Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm using suits as well in Spitfires and Hurricanes. Earliest mention is Operation Husky and in Spitfires. 

 

Implimentation, based on historical precedent, is problematic.  All sorts of factors can come into play when deciding if kit is issued to troops.  The Germans, in 45, were desperate and chucked everything, including the kitchen sink, at the enemy.  The Allies, on the other hand, had a massive and overwhelming military machine at their disposal and could thus be far more choosy about the risks and rewards of exposing "new" kit to the enemy.

[Blackhawk_FR]

1 hour ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

the only fact we have for sure now is that for sure almost no average person(from professional pilots) blacks out in just 2-3 sec at a force not over 3-5G’s..

 

Yes 3sec at 5G is not enough to black out. But how can you know in game how much G you are pulling...? 

From my feelings the pilot in game start to have a loss of color vision ("grey out") at 4/5G, which is normal. You need a bit more to get the black out. 

[KG200_Achilleus]

1 hour ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

But how can you know in game how much G you are pulling...?

I guess those spiral rolls and light turns are not over 4-5Gs, because if they were then all aerobatic pilots and redbull racing pilots would be dead already..;)

And a second thought,if those spirals with 450klms were over 4/5Gs, then a faster one and harder one how many Gs must be??12-15??

a light turn with 400klms if it was over 4-5Gs..then a much harder and faster turn how many Gs would be?

Edited October 7, 2019 by KG200_Achilleus

[Nocke]

You can do a lot of very different spirals at 450km/h or any other speed How are we supposed to know what you are doing there? 

[Blackhawk_FR]

2 hours ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

I guess those spiral rolls and light turns are not over 4-5Gs, because if they were then all aerobatic pilots and redbull racing pilots would be dead already..;)

And a second thought,if those spirals with 450klms were over 4/5Gs, then a faster one and harder one how many Gs must be??12-15??

a light turn with 400klms if it was over 4-5Gs..then a much harder and faster turn how many Gs would be?

 

As soon as you can't give numbers, it's useless...

I know what 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9G feel like and IMHO, this new feature is very very very realistic. 

[357th_Dog]

Frankly this is all just the fit throwing of someone who became overly dependent on unrealistic maneuvers and now that the servers have implemented the new realistic G force effects and such..they have found their tried and true tricks that got them kills and out of hairy circumstances now result in death over and over again. 

Oh and the "any untrained person can handle 5 G" is a load of pure nonsense.  A 2-3 second 5 G pull for someone that isn't anticipating it or straining against it is enough to induce at best a sharp grey out with loss of motor function and more than likely an immediate black out and loss of control for several seconds, followed by several more seconds of spatial and motor disorientation. 

Don't believe me? Hop in a centrifuge and have them do a spike from a baseline 1.1G to a 5.1 G for three seconds. 

[Gambit21]

5 minutes ago, 357th_Dog said:

Frankly this is all just the fit throwing of someone who became overly dependent on unrealistic maneuvers and now that the servers have implemented the new realistic G force effects and such..they have found their tried and true tricks that got them kills and out of hairy circumstances now result in death over and over again. 

 

Yep

 

[KG200_Achilleus]

 

24 minutes ago, 357th_Dog said:

Frankly this is all just the fit throwing of someone who became overly dependent on unrealistic maneuvers and now that the servers have implemented the new realistic G force effects and such..they have found their tried and true tricks that got them kills and out of hairy circumstances now result in death over and over again. 

Ah really mate?you believe that i am someone who became overly dependent on unrealistic maneuvers and now that they are off the result in death over and over again?

If you believe this come inside a server and prove this to me,prove your skills and make mine look like zero..

well..you cant so please stop the crap..

our subject is not this now but anyway..

bellow are some videos on yt showing redbull aerobatics planes maneuvering high Gs,watch them and we talk again..

go to min 1.50' and watch those barrel rolls,and of course all other high G maneuvers..

 

 

And another below with very high Gs and still pilots flying quite easy..and then tell me if you are getting some more G's inside the game than they are..

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by KG200_Achilleus

[357th_Dog]

10 minutes ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

 

 

And another below with very high Gs and still pilots flying quite easy..and then tell me if you are getting some more G's inside the game than they are..

 

Ah the classic "come and fight me" appeal. 

The fact that you instantly got defensive and angry means I'm more than likely more right than not. 

Have fun with the new reality in IL-2, maybe War Thunder or IL-2 1946 is more your speed. 

 

[YouBet]

This new feature is excellent, and it functions as a terrific equalizer.

 

The progression of fading colors, grey-out, tunnel vision, no vision and hearing loss is eerily similar to what I remember.

 

My only minor item would be the time needed to recover from a “grey-out” in the game. Back in the day, it was not uncommon for us to pull an increasing load to the point where the colors faded. A quick bunt of the stick, though, was enough for a near-immediate return to full function.

 

That said, it’s hard for me to gauge a “quick bunt of the stick” in my current swivel chair environment.

[Dale*]

58 minutes ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

Why are you showing us a video of aircraft in the Red Bull Air Race? Those Aircraft (and pilots) are made and trained to do such unusual maneuvers and high-g's. The truth of the mater is that planes (and pilots, with out the assist of G-Suits) of WW2 were not capable of pulling high g maneuvers with out of course blacking out, or loosing the structural integrity of the aircraft. As @357th_Dog has stated "Don't believe me? Hop in a centrifuge and have them do a spike from a baseline 1.1G to a 5.1 G for three seconds. "

 

And another below with very high Gs and still pilots flying quite easy..and then tell me if you are getting some more G's inside the game than they are..

 

 

If this is such a problem for you, just go ahead and play on Wings of Oppression and stick to the Eastern front. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by 93rdFG_Mutt

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, 357th_Dog said:

Frankly this is all just the fit throwing of someone who became overly dependent on unrealistic maneuvers and now that the servers have implemented the new realistic G force effects and such..they have found their tried and true tricks that got them kills and out of hairy circumstances now result in death over and over again. 

Oh and the "any untrained person can handle 5 G" is a load of pure nonsense.  A 2-3 second 5 G pull for someone that isn't anticipating it or straining against it is enough to induce at best a sharp grey out with loss of motor function and more than likely an immediate black out and loss of control for several seconds, followed by several more seconds of spatial and motor disorientation. 

Don't believe me? Hop in a centrifuge and have them do a spike from a baseline 1.1G to a 5.1 G for three seconds. 

I myself will fully admit to having gotten used to pulling a lot of G and not realizing it until I hopped in the Tempest and started blacking out during high speed maneuvers.

The highest 'G" I've been at in real life was on a roller coaster in the west edmonton mall. During some of the loops you briefly experience up to 5g. I didn't black out but it was not sustained for more than half a second- nevertheless I was unable to keep my head straight under the strain and the g forces basically forced me to looking down at my lap.  My parents, who rode it with me, were sore for nearly a week afterwards from the strain. 5 gs is no joke.

[CUJO_1970]

14 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

Yep, it is working well.  It brings a new and welcome tactical layer, where the pilot of a weaker aircraft can seek to seek an advantage by wearing out a higher performing adversary.

 

I agree and I don't think this is getting discussed enough - in fact this is my biggest takeaway from the new update - more than any plane or map being added.

 

Physiology puts the outcome more in the hands of the pilots where it belongs.

 

I could never go back to the old way.

[Gambit21]

Exactly - it’s the single biggest, and best change the sim has seen since unlocks went away. All of the “improve the base sim” comments we’ve seen - well here is a giant improvement worth the continued support all by itself.

 

[CUJO_1970]

Not to be overly dramatic, but I think it's a bit of a revolution in WW2 flight simming.

[357th_Dog]

28 minutes ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

No no i stick here,noobies like you is always a challenge for me no problem at all i can do it even blind..;)

You'd think you'd be able to adapt to change better then 

[Gambit21]

I noted that irony as well.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

It seems to me that most people in this thread are looking at the max G-load at the most intense part of the turn or loop and very few are looking at how smoothly vs. suddenly the transition into those G levels is happening.   Depending on speed and angle, even a long seemingly gentle turn seems to be able to build up enough G to cause grey-out and possibly blackout.  

 

Trust me, your average looping rollercoaster would knock you right out if it was possible to 'pull up' into the loop at a much more drastic rate.  

[Cpt_Cool]

Reminds me of a Beatles song

 

Cry baby cry

Make your mother sigh

she's old enough to know better

so cry baby cry

 

The king was in his Dora

Looking for a

Po-2 to boom and zoom

 

But his dive was too steep

it put him to sleep

Racing toward his certain doom

 

Cry baby cry etc...

[Guest deleted@134347]

this convo reminds me of a great roller coaster flick on youtube. Honestly, if you look at those impossible machines you can clearly draw a line to the pre-3.201  IL2. 

 

but not anymore.. ?

 

 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

Ingame representation of G-effects as shown in the dev diary 228

Quote

In our new model of human physiology, all these factors are now taken into account. If a high G-load is applied within 1-2 seconds, the negative consequences (visual and hearing disorders) do not appear immediately, but rather with a 2-3 seconds delay, then a quick “crisis” follows, and then, after a few seconds, the body mobilizes and its ability to tolerate G-loads becomes better. This “crisis” can be avoided, or at least reduced, if you pilot more smoothly and create G-load gradually and slowly.

 

And reality

Both model the Physiological reserve zone

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

2 hours ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

 

 

And another below with very high Gs and still pilots flying quite easy..and then tell me if you are getting some more G's inside the game than they are..

 

 

 

What I take away from this is that if you want to sustain these high-G level with less blackout, stay "well over 300kph" but certainly not over 400kph or more.  You stay slow pulling G's 'til your heart's content. We'll stay fast and careful and boom and zoom the crap out of you all day long. 

[MaxTurn]

Based on my recollection, IL-2 had more red out black out effects than IL-2 BOX until this update.  I thought the physiological effects of pulling excessive g forces were under-modeled in BOX until the update.  I have done aerobatics once as a passenger and have performed maybe 50 auto-rotations (in training) and have little experience with excessive g forces.  However,  based on my reading of pilots recounting missions and also test pilot accounts (and I have read a lot) then I think the update may over-model the effect.   Unless, you are in a military simulator then you do not have the vestibular and other physiological input to know how hard you are turning.  Also without hydraulic systems, a pilot can only pull so many g because of the required muscle strength -- I still have a couple of MS force feedback sticks but with my current stick (Virpil base/Warthog grip) I not have any control feedback.  How about an optional g meter?  That would help in learning one's limits. 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

2 minutes ago, MaxTurn said:

Based on my recollection, IL-2 had more red out black out effects than IL-2 BOX until this update.  I thought the physiological effects of pulling excessive g forces were under-modeled in BOX until the update.  I have done aerobatics once as a passenger and have performed maybe 50 auto-rotations (in training) and have little experience with excessive g forces.  However,  based on my reading of pilots recounting missions and also test pilot accounts (and I have read a lot) then I think the update may over-model the effect.   Unless, you are in a military simulator then you do not have the vestibular and other physiological input to know how hard you are turning.  Also without hydraulic systems, a pilot can only pull so many g because of the required muscle strength -- I still have a couple of MS force feedback sticks but with my current stick (Virpil base/Warthog grip) I not have any control feedback.  How about an optional g meter?  That would help in learning one's limits. 

 

It might be a little tough to get the G modeling exact.  From what I understand, even though the G might be modeled to every pilot equally, the planes themselves might have something to do with it to. 

I can't find the citation but, I recall hearing somewhere that, for some reason, the Yak-7 had complaints of increased tendency of grey-out/blackout vs. the Yak-1.69 or Yak-1.B at similar speeds.  Maybe it has something to do with static pitch rates. 

[AKA_Hollywood]

Hello All,

 

Been reading this thread and like the new pilot physio. The old IL-1946 had an accelerometer in the P-47.

To my knowledge, there is no way to know how many G's we are pulling when the black outs start, is there? 

 

Definitely have noticed that when pilot fatigue kicks in, the black outs start much earlier and might as well land and re-plane, or do others know the timer duration to full recover?

 

 

[KG200_Achilleus]

As proved, only one spiral roll(barrel roll) with only 400klm is producing an unreasonable blackout.Many other also but this is just enough to tell us that something is over-modeled..

So..no matter how loud you say this “WOW now we have a real game”... the truth is out there,and for some people is clearly enough,for some others not..

Cheers and this is closed here for me,no feather talking is needed..;)

[CIA_Yankee_]

12 minutes ago, KG200_Achilleus said:

As proved

 

Proved? Where is the proof (seriously, maybe I missed a post)?

 

But without a G-meter in the game and access to that data, I don't see how anything could be proved. Perhaps tacview data might allow us to extrapolate Gs, though as I understand it tacview has inaccuracies.