Two seaters: now let's fight !

[PatCartier]

Hi all 

here they are. Now we can imagine decents scénarios to make fly all the beauties of ww1.

I hope you will a lot of guys who will share some sp and coop missions !

 

[No.23_Triggers]

All we need now is...er...France! 

 

Let's hope the WW1 map comes soon

Edited July 24, 2019 by US103_Larner

[JG1_Vonrd]

2 minutes ago, US103_Larner said:

All we need now is...er...France! 

 

Let's hope the WW1 map comes soon

... and period correct ground units (particularly AAA)...

and, oh yes...  Zeppelins!   ?

[PatCartier]

I hope that Pat Wilson will be more enthusiast than you ! We have the full setplane now?

[BMA_Hellbender]

Oh boy!

 

Downloading now.

[Trooper117]

Yes, the 'Biff' is here...  

[BMA_Hellbender]

I am ecstatic!

 

And I haven't even tested the Biff yet :D

 

So far, the Halberstadt matches and exceeds all my expectations.

 

• Although still easy to flip over when landing on rough terrain, she is way better behaved on the ground.
   
• More importantly, when you do flip over, the gunner is no longer killed as he sits lower when not manning the guns! THANK YOU!!
   
• This plane was basically "forgotten" during the 2014 update, and the 200hp Mercedes D.IIIau version is now correctly faster than both the Pfalz D.IIIa and Albatros D.Va, while the 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa version is slower.
   
• Textures are a definite improvement over RoF. Machineguns sound quite a bit more beefy.

 

Still, I need to dogfight a bit with her to know if she can still put up with Camels (preferrably with the Captain in the backseat). What I can already say is that the spread on the reargun is gone, so it is certain to become... interesting.

 

Now for some more tests and then I'll take a look at the Bristol.

 

EDIT:

 

I've found a small bug with both the Halberstadt (and the Bristol): when the gunner bails, he does his sitting up animation twice.

 

 

 

 

As for the Bristol: blimey.

 

If she no longer sheds wings in a dogfight the same way she did in RoF, then I don't think anything pre-1930 even needs to consider coming near it. We'll see how she fares against 109s.

 

I would like to point out that a twin Lewis gun turret was standard equipment on the Bristol, not a modification. This is a change from Rise of Flight, where the mod allowed you to remove one instead. Not a big deal, though, the Aldis sight should be standard on the SE5a and isn't standard equipment there either.

 

 

 

Speaking of twins, I kind of like the fact that we have these moustachy bros operating the Bristroll.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by J5_Hellbender

[Dutch2]

38 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

I am ecstatic!

So far, the Halberstadt matches and exceeds all my expectations.

• Textures are a definite improvement over RoF. Machineguns sound quite a bit more beefy.

 

Did you also test them in VR, or pure in monitor look,  because I can not test these two planes, I have deleted the whole FC from my rig.

[BMA_Hellbender]

Just now, Dutch2 said:

 

Did you also test them in VR, or pure in monitor look,  because I can not test these two planes, I have deleted the whole FC from my rig.

 

I'm sorry, I don't have VR.

 

I've been eyeing one of those Samsung Odyssey+ HMDs, but they don't sell them in Europe...

[Dutch2]

12 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 

I'm sorry, I don't have VR.

 

I've been eyeing one of those Samsung Odyssey+ HMDs, but they don't sell them in Europe...

Then I do hope these do have now better made VR cockpit. 

The Odyssey can be buy at: 

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Electronics-Wireless-Controllers-XE800ZBA-HC1US/dp/B07HS7R1RT

now on sale but it seems there are other better alternatives check MRTV and Voodoo.de 

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC2mgZjuHRDW02mx_ok4wfPw/videos

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC3ok91FKp_SAtxhz63Ti3KQ/videos

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Dutch2

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, J5_Hellbender said:

I would like to point out that a twin Lewis gun turret was standard equipment on the Bristol, not a modification. This is a change from Rise of Flight, where the mod allowed you to remove one instead. Not a big deal, though, the Aldis sight should be standard on the SE5a and isn't standard equipment there either.

 

The single Lewis turret should have been the default setup in Rise of Flight, but by the time someone pointed that out in beta testing, it was too late to change it. What we have here in FC is the correct arrangement. 

[SeaW0lf]

1 hour ago, J5_Hellbender said:

If she no longer sheds wings in a dogfight the same way she did in RoF [Bristol], then I don't think anything pre-1930 even needs to consider coming near it. We'll see how she fares against 109s.

 

Oh, boy... ??? 

[No.23_Starling]

Has anyone tried gunner in VR yet? When I nestle to the gunsight with shift+t the camera goes a bit haywire, snapping back between front aspect and rear aspect.

 

Is this a bug worth reporting? I realise the birds have only be available for a couple of hours.

[Feathered_IV]

3 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 

EDIT:

 

I've found a small bug with both the Halberstadt (and the Bristol): when the gunner bails, he does his sitting up animation twice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

He seems to fly upwards like a paper bag too.  Perhaps this will be refined later on.  

[BMA_Hellbender]

Took them both up with the Captain just now. We had a blast!

 

Some more findings:

 

• The angle at which the Halberstadt gunner can raise his Parabellums is much lower than in RoF, even though the guns are still correctly depressed all the way on the menu screen. I suppose this has something to do with the 3D modelling of the gunner. This may in fact be more realistic, though it certainly doesn't make the Halberstadt any better. :D
  
  Rise of Flight in-game:
  
  
  
  
  Flying Circus menu (identical to Rise of Flight):
  
  
  
  
  Flying Circus in-game:
  
  

 

• The gunner animation appears very jittery as seen from the pilot seat or from outside. This may be a server problem, we were only able to test on the Hotballs server.
  
  
  
  
  
  
   
• Gunners do not get kills credited (tried both AI and humans). Again, this may be a server setting.
  
  
  
  
   
• And lastly Captain Darling tells me he is able to keep firing one gun on the Bristol or the Halberstadt while reloading the other.

[SeaW0lf]

33 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

And lastly Captain Darling tells me he is able to keep firing one gun on the Bristol or the Halberstadt while reloading the other.

 

I think that one goes to the bug section. They might have forgotten some line of code.

[US213_Talbot]

Let's have some info on accuracy and all that! Are they lasers? How do you feel about damage model for the gunner? What's it look like when he dies?

 

I'm away from the house for a few days and cant mess with it.

[No.23_Triggers]

I'd also be really interested to hear how the Cap got on with gunnery...I gave it a shot earlier and found it incredibly difficult compared to what I remember from RoF. Mind you, I'm no Charles G. Gass in the rear seat...

 

One thing I've noted from the Scout perspective is that gunners, particularly the Halberstadt gunner, seem to be incredibly hard to kill! When testing yesterday I got away several bursts that I thought surely must have did the gunner in, only to find tracers still coming back at me. By comparison, I've found Scout pilots relatively easy to kill in a well-aimed burst. It was almost as if the Gunner's hitbox was just too small!

 

Oh, that reminds me - I noticed another small bug with the Halberstadt. If you hit the gunner's position you'll see sparks as if you were shooting a metal aircraft. This also happens on the Bristol, but it actually works really well - it gives the impression bullets are striking the Scarff ring! This only occurs with the gunner positions. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by US103_Larner

[BMA_Hellbender]

I seem to have figured out why the Halberstadt gunner can't raise his gun quite so high as in Rise of Flight: he doesn't bend through his knees.

 

Whether this is intentional or not remains unclear. Perhaps we could get @Han to comment?

 

RoF Halberstadt gunner aiming 6 o'clock high:

 

 

 

FC Halberstadt gunner aiming 6 o'clock high:

 

 

 

 

Captain Darling and I won't have a lot of time to fly together this summer, so a proper review will likely have to wait until at least mid-August.

 

 

Other than that, did anyone manage to reproduce the jittery animation of the gunner?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

To my previous post about not registering hits.

I learned that there need to be some distance for  damage to be calculated. In Halberstadt observer is to close to the player.

[US103_Baer]

I also can't kill the AI gunner in Halb CL2 unless he's in a chute! (yes i did try)

 

Seriously though. Ran QM in 'invincible' mode multiple times. Slowed the game speed, closed up and nailed the gunner as he stood there shooting at me.

Recording showed tracers passing thru gunner area and killing pilot, but the gunner calmly dosie-doed and hit the silk. 

 

No such luck for the Bristol gunner though, he keeled over straightaway.

 

Need to try with a human gunner.

Edited July 25, 2019 by US103_Baer

[6./ZG26_Loke]

I did kill the Ai gunner. 

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by 6./ZG26_Loke

[No.23_Triggers]

2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

I did kill the Ai gunner. 

 

 

He is killable, I've gotten him too, but there's definitely a big problem with the hitbox. I've put several bursts into the gunner in what should be a lethal shot, only to kill the pilot through the gunner. A squadmate even tested it out by putting invincible mode on, flying at point blank range behind the Halberstadt and letting the gunner have it in slow motion (to make sure the shots were dead on the mark). Same effect - pilot killed through gunner.  (Just noticed his post)

Further testing shows that the Bristol gunner doesn't seem to be affected by this. 

 

I believe US103_Baer is planning on making a video about it later, will ask him to post here if he does. 

 

P.S, I don't think the gunner's actually dead in your screenshot. Are you sure he isn't just sitting down in that pic? when I sniped him he was folded completely over in the cockpit...

Edited July 25, 2019 by US103_Larner

[BMA_Hellbender]

Had a quick go in the Halberstadt and the Bristol with Captain Darling just now.

 

Both of these planes fly exactly the same as they did in Rise of Flight, but the way they work in a fight is a bit different, owing to the changes in gunnery and damage model. The major difference is that RoF was always a matter of wing damage. The Bristol was notorious for shedding its wings in tight turns, much like the Sopwith Pup, so you'd be running home at the first hint of damage. That's almost completely gone, though they are still more fragile than those on most Entente scouts.

 

Darling also confirmed that it's harder to make precise hits on the enemy pilot or engine at high angles, in spite (or maybe because?) of the absence of spread. It also matters far less that you score random hits on the enemies' wings. It works both ways. In other words: a Bristol can stay in a turnfight far longer, but it's not worth the risk — unless perhaps you have a lot of energy to burn, but that wasn't the case in the fights we were in. All in all she invites you to fly more honestly: like a Dolphin which turns into a AAA battery at close range. A heavy fighter, if you will. If you manage to surprise an enemy and tear into him from below, it's easier to cause a flamer than it was in RoF. That alone puts it in a class of its own.

 

There is a bit of a problem with the Scarff ring, though. You can move it forward in the down position when coming from the sides, but once you elevate it up front, it can no longer come down unless you move it to the sides again. This problem was not present in RoF.

 

 

 

 

The Halberstadt is a very different beast. She's most certainly not a "German Bristol". Since the Parabellum turret can only fire at very low angles, but forward visibility for the gunner is better than in the Bristol, it's easier to score hits in a fight, provided you fly her like a fighter. She handles closest to an Albatros / Pfalz hybrid, but with her machinegun on a spindle and very little vertical movement. Ironically she still does very well against Bristols in a turnfight, though it's nowhere near the Bristol butcher that it was in RoF, where you could shoot wings off just by looking at her. Remains to be seen what she can do defensively against Camels. I assume not much.

 

 

For the record, I can confirm that the jittery gunner is present on other servers as well. It looks odd, because the guns are moving smoothily.

 

 

 

All in all I'm happy with both the Bristol and Halberstadt and feel they are very distinct machines, in spite of some of the teething issues. But hey, it's early access so we're all a bit beta testers.

 

And yes, I still like the Halberstadt way more, but then again I'm a filthy Jasta/Schlastanaut now.  

[6./ZG26_Loke]

Not 100% sure he is dead. But he didn't fire back anymore, nore move. 

 

I agree though that he is hard to kill. 

I was shot down by train AA fire, and my gunner survived the crash, and still kept firing at the train ?

Edited July 25, 2019 by 6./ZG26_Loke

[Swing]

The two seaters are so cool ...For information they have a level bombsight ...and the Halberstadt have a 20mm Becker canon in option (turret)...!!!

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Swing

[Panzerlang]

Waiting for the map...

[US213_Talbot]

Does the Becker misfire every 2 or 3 rounds like in RoF?

[6./ZG26_Loke]

Why do they have a level bombsight? 

[RNAS10_Oliver]

48 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

Why do they have a level bombsight? 

 

Bristol Fighter had level bombights in Rise of Flight also.

 

The bombsights were prob my main gripe in the game (along with other players in gunner seat not being able to use them) and would have prefered something more representative of the Drift sight (think adjustable iron sight setup that you look over) in the British types rather than the scope-esque view that ended up with.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Oliver88

[Panzerlang]

Funnily enough that was the first question my brother asked when I told him the 2-seaters were out, "Can the gunner drop the bombs now?"

[No.23_Starling]

Has anyone tried being a gunner in VR? I'm still getting snap-forward issues with my Rift S when leaning to the sight. The view keeps lurching from a back to front view

[LukeFF]

10 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

Why do they have a level bombsight? 

 

Some of the real Bristols had a bombsight in the pilot's cockpit (there's a placard next to the gunsight describing its parameters). Not exactly sure about the CL2, but since it's there, then there is likely good evidence for it being included. 

[BMA_Hellbender]

@LukeFF, were you or the devs able to reproduce the stuttering movement on the gunners as seen from the pilot seat in multiplayer?

 

I haven’t had the chance to look at this more in-depth, but I’m fairly certain the problem isn’t present on the Po-2 at least.

[RNAS10_Oliver]

Perhaps this is something that exists with other turret positions in the game engine (or an known issue mentioned before on forums) though this is this first turret that I have tried out in the game. But when controlling the gunner and being nestled to the gunsight some angles seem to cause your body to pop into view when you use your trackir/edtracker to look back down into the seat;

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Oliver88

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

@LukeFF, were you or the devs able to reproduce the stuttering movement on the gunners as seen from the pilot seat in multiplayer?

 

I haven’t had the chance to look at this more in-depth, but I’m fairly certain the problem isn’t present on the Po-2 at least.

 

I never saw it, so it might have been something that slipped in when the patch went public. In any case, it's been reported in the beta testing forums. 

[TEShaw]

19 hours ago, Waggaz said:

Has anyone tried being a gunner in VR? I'm still getting snap-forward issues with my Rift S when leaning to the sight. The view keeps lurching from a back to front view

 

Yes, Waggaz; and yes, the same 'lurching'.  Although 'lurching' is too kind a word, more like 'dashing', 'flinging' and 'exploding'.

 

The gunner position was the first thing I tried in the new two-seaters with my first generation Oculus Rift.

 

Surely this is a problem to be fixed.

 

A work-around for now has been to not 'nestle', but assume the gunner position with key 't' and use aiming assist in the un-realism settings.

 

(On a side note: is it possible to set AI to fly the plane and then use the joystick for elevating and rotating the gun?  Funny, with the joystick I could even rotate the gunner's head away from the gunsight in the 'nestle' position.)

 

regards,

 

Airman T. E. Shaw

 

 

[No.23_Starling]

32 minutes ago, TEShaw said:

 

Yes, Waggaz; and yes, the same 'lurching'.  Although 'lurching' is too kind a word, more like 'dashing', 'flinging' and 'exploding'.

 

The gunner position was the first thing I tried in the new two-seaters with my first generation Oculus Rift.

 

Surely this is a problem to be fixed.

 

A work-around for now has been to not 'nestle', but assume the gunner position with key 't' and use aiming assist in the un-realism settings.

 

(On a side note: is it possible to set AI to fly the plane and then use the joystick for elevating and rotating the gun?  Funny, with the joystick I could even rotate the gunner's head away from the gunsight in the 'nestle' position.)

 

regards,

 

Airman T. E. Shaw

 

 

 

Thanks Shaw. Glad it's not just me.

 

How do we report this to the devs?

 

S!

[TEShaw]

11 minutes ago, Waggaz said:

 

Thanks Shaw. Glad it's not just me.

 

How do we report this to the devs?

 

S!

 

I guess we go over to the Technical Issues and Bug Reports forum.

 

Shall we go?

 

 

[US103_Baer]

Made this video on Halberstadt gunners not dying. Have posted in Bug Reports also.

 

Ran 30-40 tests as per the 4 examples in this video. From behind, close, gunner standing and sitting.

 

The Halberstadt gunner doesn't die but the pilot does. Bullets appear to pass through the gunner without effect.

Is something wrong with his hitbox?

 

Running same test on Bristol, the gunner was killed in a logical manner almost immediately.