A.I improved?

[Adger]

Hi all I sincerely hope your all doing well.

 

Im working away till the weekend and so cannot check myself,and if I'm being honest I uninstalled BOX series a few months ago due to my personal issues with the A.I. So in your honest opinion guys and girls has the new update improved the A.I in any way?  I'm really hoping that things have improved to an extent where I can reinstall ..fire one of the old birds up,and enjoy the series with improved A.i.

 

Many thanks in advance for any/all replies and I hope we can keep the thread civil.

Have a great day all of you.

Cheers.

[LuftManu]

It did. The combat seems more vertical than horizontal wich is always good. Also, the difference between Ace and novice is all there. 

 

Ace and experienced seems to maintain energy/speed better whereas novice tries to turn.

[Feathered_IV]

What happens when the fight gets down low?  Does the enemy try to break out of a turnfight, or press a relative advantage in maneuverability and try to get on your tail? 

[LuftManu]

Will need more hours to test. This is a QMB example. 8x 109F4 random vs 8x Yaks random

 

 

And some 262

 

The enemy now tries to keep speed better instead of constant turning. More straight phases, climbing where on low altitude and random turns in different directions. It is also more dangerous as they try to get on your tail and they try harder than before.

@Feathered_IV

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by LF_Gallahad

[Leon_Portier]

Please do test! I´m all ears!

[JonRedcorn]

From my testing the combat and even wingmen AI is substantially improved. This is all in just one update, can't wait to see what they can do with a few more. Dogfighting yaks was awesome as it should be. This was on ACE, but the AI didn't do a constant speed turn one time, they were YANKING on the stick, left, then right, split S, diving away, climbing, saw a yak prop hang an AI 109. Awesome stuff. The games so much better in singleplayer.

 

AI wingmen return to formation, they follow orders much better. Can't wait to get into a career mode.

[J2_Bidu]

Uh I noticed something weird in FC: on a quick mission, the AI often prop hangs against some non-existent foe, and doing that often stalls and spins. It's doing that at quite some distance from me, so absolutely no purpose in that. Also, when chased, seems to dive extremely steeply, even when flying a Camel which could easily outturn my plane, thereby losing more than 500m.

 

Left me wondering but I never played much against the AI in FC, so I can't judge if that counts as an improvement or not.

 

On the good side, when on my 6 the AI shoots accurately, even trying long range shots which actually hit.

[von_Michelstamm]

I think I see a difference.

Was flying against average p40s to practice gunnery with new convergence settings, they seem to take more firing opportunities. Also seem a bit less predictable, even though they start out the flight the same way.

They do seem to endlessly turn less frequently.

[Nocke]

First career flight after update killed my pilot, he had become lazy and overconfident and was caught pants down by a suddenly, it seems to me, much more aggressive AI. Its great fun to have your flight actually staying with you now.

[Feathered_IV]

10 hours ago, LF_Gallahad said:

Will need more hours to test. This is a QMB example. 8x 109F4 random vs 8x Yaks random

 

That's a great graphic.  I find I can watch those for hours.

I was curious about whether there have been changes to how the AI behave when the player gets behind them at low level, rather than how the AI vs AI play out at higher altitudes.  I'll see if I can get updated and check it out this week.

[LuftManu]

5 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

That's a great graphic.  I find I can watch those for hours.

I was curious about whether there have been changes to how the AI behave when the player gets behind them at low level, rather than how the AI vs AI play out at higher altitudes.  I'll see if I can get updated and check it out this week.

 

From now I can say they are more aggressive, @Feathered_IV as they try to stay on your tail and with speed. Sometimes you think you lost them but they are on your belly and such. At low altitude they also climb sometimes to dive, don't know if they are scared or doing something else but it works. ACE level is competitive.

 

Already lost one career yesterday trying to take out some "useless Yaks" in Kuban to be jumped by another one from the same flight.

[SovietAce]

I must say that AI did improve quite a lot. In one of my careers, we were covering group of Ju 88, when we were attacked by several Yaks. After battle, I saw several bombers leaking fuel and two of them were damaged pretty badly. This didnt happened before 3.101. Usually AI fighters didnt do much harm to bomber formations. Also, as many stated, they are much more agresive and much harder to shake off. 

 

I think that we are on good way there, but there is still a lot work to do.

[Feathered_IV]

Did some testing.  It looks like the low level AI vs player routines are the same as in earlier versions. 

 

Flying an I-16 against a new Me-262, the fight could be quickly brought down to the deck by breaking into each attack.  Within perhaps two minutes and three passes by the 262, I was behind the AI and the continuous turn began.  The 262 had plenty of opportunity to escape the Rata by breaking slightly to the right for example,  and putting its nose down to trade the still reasonable altitude for a good burst of speed.  However it stayed in the turn and did not show any signs of doing anything else for the next 20 minutes.

 

 

 

Sometimes I fell behind until I was almost dead astern.  Other times I turned inside of the 262 by a generous margin so that I cut inside of his turn and closed in so that I was in a loose  echelon-left formation.  The AI continued to turn.

 

 

After a time I took a few pot shots at him and relaxed to see what he would do.  I have found that in previous versions other aircraft will keep going in the turn until all their fuel drains away.

The 262 could still have left me standing at any time if he just turned a few degrees in the other direction.

 

 

This continued for a very long time, as I admired the scenery and my steady framerates.  Eventually I tired of the game, if you can call it that.  I kept a lead on him until I began to close in on the 262, to the point where I could hear his engines quite clearly.  The AI was still turning, so I decided to end things there.

 

 

 

After that I exited immediately.  From the mission results you can see how long the AI was turning for.  Hopefully in the future something can be done to fix this behaviour.  Perhaps by limiting the time that the AI remains in a turn and by giving it a few escape routines which it can use. 

 

[BraveSirRobin]

 That 262 pilot probably has a better chance of getting away than you have of finding AI that can’t be exploited. 

[LuftManu]

2 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

text

 

 

What a let down. Have you tried with other planes? Not one in beta or tricky like a 262?

[RedKestrel]

To be fair, the AI changes listed did not mention combat capabilities directly IIRC, anything there is a bonus. 

[Feathered_IV]

5 hours ago, LF_Gallahad said:

What a let down. Have you tried with other planes? Not one in beta or tricky like a 262?

 

Yes, that's what they all do since the beginning of the BoX series.  They keep going in the turn until they run out of fuel or the engine quits.  

[Velxra]

Very interesting findings all and a welcome improvement to the game! I can also confirm novice gunners hit more often when close and ace gunners miss more often at distance. 

[Adger]

Thanks all,if I'm being honest I'm slightly disappointed in reading Feathered,s findings. (But thanks Feathered for taking the time to test and report). After all this time there STILL making the continuous turns until they either run out of fuel or has mentioned the engine quits.

 

One thing I will add..it at least looks like the Devs are trying to improve the A.I,maybe there's still a way to go but il remain optimistic and hopefully further changes for the better can be made.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Adger

[JonRedcorn]

Everyone that keeps ripping on the AI are doing fights against the 262... Same thjing on youtube. The 262 ai is crap right now. It's a brand new release in early access, why don't you go try a fight against some prop planes on ace feathered instead of fighting 262's in a rata...

[Feathered_IV]

Hi Redcorn. Thanks for the suggestion!

I’ve been doing just that for some years now however, so I thought I would try the 262 this time, in the hope that the vast performance difference would prompt the AI to do something else.  

[JonRedcorn]

3 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

Hi Redcorn. Thanks for the suggestion!

I’ve been doing just that for some years now however, so I thought I would try the 262 this time, in the hope that the vast performance difference would prompt the AI to do something else.  

The AI for the 262 seems to be pretty poor right now. Really wouldn't suggest fighting it. Just sucks to see a great update get crapped on. We've complained about the AI for literally years, we finally get some decent updates and people are having a winge over it. It's really disappointing.

Edited June 13, 2019 by JgonRedcorn

[Feathered_IV]

It definitely looks like a great update.  I don't think the 262 is at fault at all.  It just happens to share the existing AI routines. 

[LuftManu]

I confirm that the continious turning is not happening as before. At low level there is more chance to happen. <300m above that, they usually climb

Here are some examples. I am not talking out of my hat

(Ai on average)
@Adger I suggest you try it for yourself. Featehred_IV is right, AI always can be exploited. It is better than before. Enojoyable? Personal opinion. For me it is.

 

All BOBP planes (G14 and K4 appear as G4, will do the same with BOS/BOM planes)

 

 

BoS planeset

 

As you can see, they react better and he did a climb

 

BoM planeset

 

 

As you guys can see, they react better and looks like the other planesets do more? Can't confirm.

It seems there are expections to the cont. turning wich is great. This is only about turning. In gunnery it is better and they are a lot more aggressive.

 

Regards

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by LF_Gallahad

[Feathered_IV]

Just for the record, I was not at any point trying to exploit the AI.  I gave it every advantage I could.  I only followed doctrine by breaking into its attack and maneuvering to get on its tail.

[Godspeed]

Now AI shoots down Bombers this patch was good improvement.

I tested Bf 110 career and now my fellow pilots do something and its big leap.

 

There are plenty work to be done still but i can say it has gone better.

[NO_SQDeriku777]

2 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

Just for the record, I was not at any point trying to exploit the AI.  I gave it every advantage I could.  I only followed doctrine by breaking into its attack and maneuvering to get on its tail.

It ridiculous to generalize your observation of the new AI based only the only Jet fighter in the game which arguably has nothing in common with the rest of the prop planes in the game.  The prop planes could conceivably share AI code bounded by their individual performance characteristics. No way you could apply the same AI to the 262.  I think we all know that.  Put your axe away.

Edited June 13, 2019 by NO_SQDeriku777

[BraveSirRobin]

2 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

Just for the record, I was not at any point trying to exploit the AI.  I gave it every advantage I could.  I only followed doctrine by breaking into its attack and maneuvering to get on its tail.

 

But that’s exactly what you did.  You lured the AI into a low fight because you know it becomes more cautious down low to avoid crashing.  You are never going to find AI that can’t be exploited.  Get over it.

[LuftManu]

3 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

Just for the record, I was not at any point trying to exploit the AI.  I gave it every advantage I could.  I only followed doctrine by breaking into its attack and maneuvering to get on its tail.

Sorry! I was trying to point out that there is always a pattern you can make them do, no matter the game. AI is usually less brained than some humans

[von_Michelstamm]

Something else (no surprise as it’s mentioned in the notes) is that in multiplane QMB planes will reform into formation instead of just stumbling about. Very cool. 

[JG27*PapaFly]

The only AI I ever saw that were using energy-conserving hit-and-run tactics were in Aces Over Europe (early 90s WWII combat SIM). Some of them had names, like Novotny. He would extend a few  km, then pitch-back and attack head on. Not proper energy tactic, but very deadly.

[Feathered_IV]

7 hours ago, NO_SQDeriku777 said:

It ridiculous to generalize your observation of the new AI based only the only Jet fighter in the game which arguably has nothing in common with the rest of the prop planes in the game.  The prop planes could conceivably share AI code bounded by their individual performance characteristics. No way you could apply the same AI to the 262.  I think we all know that.  Put your axe away.

 

Please try to understand.  This has nothing to do with the Me-262 as an aircraft. 

The AI's low level turning is common to all types and it is what I experience in my career missions.  I was informed that the constant turning was fixed, so I did a check.  Don't shoot the messenger. 

[JonRedcorn]

2 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

Please try to understand.  This has nothing to do with the Me-262 as an aircraft. 

The AI's low level turning is common to all types and it is what I experience in my career missions.  I was informed that the constant turning was fixed, so I did a check.  Don't shoot the messenger. 

And the award for most disingenuous poster goes to!

[Feathered_IV]

Thanks for that. 

 

[=gRiJ=Roman-]

Last night I was finishing my Platzschutzstaffel Pitomnik Campaign and then I saw the Lagg3 and La5 fighting in the vertical. They were chasing the Bf109s and sometimes stalling and falling in a spin. It was a pure delight to see this change in the AI behaviour. I really enjoyed chasing them upwards and shooting at them. Finally, a change from the everlasting turning dogfights. Congrats to the Devs for the change!