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Spitfire XIV should be included in BOBP

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

RAF Sqn at the time is IIRC 12 flying plus 8 reserve aircraft. So assuming full 12 plane Squadrons for operations (reserve aircraft did not fly),

 

Nope, in 1944 the 'flying element' was 16 aircraft with 8 reserve (though as with all things, availability on the day varied between the 2).

 

Interesting that 'reserve' in your sense (platforms on the airfield should not be counted) are 'removed from ToE'.. Why is this? They had been build and delivered. They are counted. Let us - for good manners - not get into a debate about how many Luftwaffe aircraft sat on various fields devoid of POL< aircrew, mechanics or simply lost in the post. If they left the factories at all - which many did not.

 

Also, Hurries in RAF service at this time would be akin to Ar. 96: not operational but an OCU aircraft. Unless you can find any Hurricane squadrons on the continent at all from 6th June 1944?

 

3/10, try again.

 

Edited by EAF19_Marsh
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He also forgets that there was extra pilots and these so-called reserve a/c would also be flown on Ops. A flight or section or pilots could be stood down and the reserve a/c and pilots would fly the next OP.

 

See the graphic I sent you for 4 Jan 1945 (2 ATF) were there was 20 more pilots than the 468 a/c Op.U.E. Fighter Command had even more extra pilots.

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On 5/24/2019 at 4:54 PM, Jade_Monkey said:

It is a sexy plane, wouldn't mind having it if the devs have time.

 

This:salute:

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Adding more Spitfire options would only make this great sim even better: I hope to see a +25 lbs option for the Mk9 and the Mk14 as a collector's plane. I'm sure most would buy it. I for one find the Mk14's long nose encasing the Griffon and the 5 bladed prop extremely attractive and the thing just reeks of power and potency.....

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On 5/29/2019 at 8:42 AM, VO101Kurfurst said:

As of 18th May 1944, Spitfires with Sqn's:

 

MkV     531
MKVII  62
MK VIII  209
MK IX   996
Mk XII   22
MK XIV 61.

That is a lot of Spitfires in the ETO.

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Just now, MiloMorai said:

That is a lot of Spitfires in the ETO.

Of course, what these numbers don't reflect is that most of the Spitfire Vs used by the ADGB & 2 TAF were on squadrons that were resting on rear-echelon airfields and transitioning from earlier Spitfire IXs onto L.F Mk IXs, or were being used as trainers. The Mk VIIIs were all based overseas.

As of 5 June 1944, 2 TAF had an Air Spotting Pool made up of 26 & 63 Sqns plus 4 FAA Sqns and VCS-7, a U.S Navy unit, all of which were equipped with Spitfire Vs or Seafire IIIs, but no front-line Spitfire V squadrons. ADGB had 5 fighter squadrons equipped with Spitfire Vs, of which 350 (Belgian) Sqn was transitioning to the XIV, plus 2 ASR units.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, NZTyphoon said:

Of course, what these numbers don't reflect is that most of the Spitfire Vs used by the ADGB & 2 TAF were on squadrons that were resting on rear-echelon airfields and transitioning from earlier Spitfire IXs onto L.F Mk IXs, or were being used as trainers

 

This has been pointed out numerous times but some people like to throw it forth as a red herring. There were no Vs in North-West Europe in 1944 and people know this. A few scattered examples might have persisted in Italy (though 1943 rather than 1941 examples) and the poor CBI theatre likely kept hold of theirs.

 

As I indicated above, a Hurri or Mk. V in 1944 was akin to an Arado. You might as well count a rocket-equipped Fiesler Storch as a 1945 'combat aircraft'. [edited]

 

Quote

As of 18th May 1944, Spitfires with Sqn's:

 

How many K-4s and D-9s as of 18th May 1944? That would be...er..none. 100% Spit XIV outnumbering of the K-4s and D-9s as of the date you chose to use. Maybe we could look at the Bodenplatte time-period instead? Might better help your case (remind me not to hire you as a lawyer).

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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I./JG27 received a total of 34 K-4s in Oct, Nov, Dec but only 14 on hand end  of Dec

In Dec it lost 20 of which 12 had been lost to enemy action.

 

III./JG27 received a total of 136 K-4s in Oct, Nov, Dec but only 26 on hand end of Dec.

In Oct it lost 10 but not to enemy action.

In Nov it lost 53 of which 30 had been lost to enemy action.

In Dec it lost 47 of which 33 were to enemy action.

 

A total of 170 delivered with 75 lost in combat (44%).

 

Near the end of Dec 12 had been delivered to II./JG2 for testing a.98ata.

 

854 had come out of the factory door til the end of 1944 with 90 available for Bodenplatte.

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6 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

854 had come out of the factory door til the end of 1944 with 90 available for Bodenplatte.

 

How many by end of May ‘44? I ask only as Kurfurst decided to use this date as a pivot point.

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On 6/2/2019 at 6:16 AM, MiloMorai said:

On patrol

bcf411a799fac4cecff69f8d06fcf495.jpg


Not even able to hold a clean finger four....too much HP certainly...Newbs!:lol:

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3 hours ago, JV69badatflyski said:


Not even able to hold a clean finger four....too much HP certainly...Newbs!:lol:

 

Forming up.

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2 hours ago, aft1983 said:

she is a real beauty

401286EE-0D82-4061-B75E-919B363FEA6B.jpeg

 

Absolutely!

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IMO there is no reason for not adding this plane. It was more numerous in the air than atleast a few of the aircraft we already have, incl. the 1.98ata K4.

 

I am also of the opinion that it should come with a +21 lbs boost engine mod. 

 

Should also note that it would be sure to earn the devs quite a few pennies as we're talking about the definitive Spitfire to see action in WW2, an aircraft which sadly has rarely been present in any other WW2 flight sim.

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20$ ready to be exchanged for it, but time to make this was lost on po-2 lol

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7 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

but time to make this was lost on po-2 lol

 

No, it wasn't. The U-2 was a third-party project. 

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14 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

20$ ready to be exchanged for it, but time to make this was lost on po-2 lol

Maybe lay off the pot for a bit.

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Spitfire Mk XIV Is like trending topic this days. It's a good asset and its not inaccurate. I wish see the XIV on time

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7th March 1944 Spitfire Mk XIV combat with FW 190's.

 

The web page below provides a link to the actual historical combat report and below is a typed extract from the report.

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

 

Combat Reports

610 Squadron's Intelligence Officer recorded on 7 March, 1944 what may be the Spitfire XIV's first aerial combat:

     Black section, (P/O Hussey and F/Sgt. Harding) were patrolling on an east west line about 20 miles south east of Start Point 500 feet above sea level, under the control of Kingswear C.H.L. Station.
     At approx 17.30 hours the Section was told to investigate unidentified aircraft 15 miles ahead, on a vector 120 degrees. After two minutes this vector was changed to 150 degress (At this time Black one was using only plus 12 lbs boost with his jet tank still on, and the A.S.I. was clocking about 350 miles per hour.) The section was now outside G.C.I. cover, but after about a minute 3 F.W. 190's appeared from 9 o'clock approx 200 feet below, flying in a fairly close vic on a rough vector of 240 degrees; visibility was bad owing to haze, and the section had hardly seen the E/A before they had passed underneath to 3 o'clock.
     Black Section immediately pulled round to the right, and it seemed that the E/A saw them at the same moment, for as our section turned on their tails, black smoke was seen pouring from their engines as they pushed everything forward and dived to sea level. The F.W. 190 on the left of the section turned south, and the other two turned away and disappeared into the haze and glare of the sun. Our section gave chase to the single F.W. 190 which at this time, was about 800 yards ahead, right on the deck. We closed without difficulty but when 400 yards away, Black 1 noticed a F.W. 190 making a quarter attack on him from between 4 and 5 o'clock, so gave the order to "break right". As he pulled up he saw the E/A fireing at him with insufficient deflection, and it appeared that the turning circle of the Spitfire XIV was better than that of the F.W. 190. Black 1, at 1,000 feet, was now in the haze and lost sight of the F.W. 190 and his No. 2.
     Black 2, who was on the left of Black 1, saw the F.W. 190 break off his attack on Black 1, and dive south west to sea level, so he rolled down to the left and got on to the tail of the F.W. 190 at a distance of about 800 yards (The F.W. 190 that our section had been chasing originally, had disappeared by this time)
     At first Black 2, did not close on the F.W. 190 as fast as he would have liked (probably due to the excitement, he forgot to jettison his tank with Black 1 at the commencement of the first chase. The addition of the jet tank would probably take off 30 miles per hour.) Another F.W. 190 now appeared ahead at about 11 o'clock, and joined formation on the left of the aircraft that Black 2 was chasing.
     Black 2 now found that he was closing in quite fast, around 400 I.A.S. and opened fire on the left hand F.W. 190 from dead astern at 300 yards he saw strikes on both wing roots and panels flew off the port mainplane as he closed to about 100 yards. Not until the strikes were observed did the other E/A take any action. Even then he did nothing for some time, then pulled straight up and round to the left, and tried to get on the tail of Black 2. Black 2 took a final squirt at his target whose only evasive action was pitching slightly up and down, before he broke into the other E/A which was trying to get on his tail (although clocking 360 m.p.h. the turning circle of the Spitfire seemed superior to that of the F.W. 190) The F.W. 190 fired at Black 2 but allowed insufficient deflection then broke off his attack and disappeared into the mist. The E/A was not seen again. 60 
Click on the number 60 underlined in blue at the end of the above text to see original combat report.
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Posted (edited)

 

historical picture

4A001EC9-1735-4C65-A8B4-82E678438AB6.jpeg

DA29F3CF-C7B4-4B79-B1BA-CC32FFCE70AF.png

Edited by aft1983

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This way the Spit-XIV photo is correctly orientated:

 

spit-xiv.jpg

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1 hour ago, sevenless said:

This way the Spit-XIV photo is correctly orientated:

 

spit-xiv.jpg

yes

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Maybe a stupid question, but wasn't the Spitfire XIV also available with a bubble canopy? Unfortunately, I didn't find much to do with it, except that I think even Spit MK IX were equipped with it at the end of the war.

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From the "2nd Tactical Air Force 3. From Rhine to Victory - January to May 1945" by Shores and Thomas

About-Spitfire-XIV-Bubble-Canopy.thumb.jpg.0354a1cee699890c52f2f4073774bc3e.jpg

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4 hours ago, Big_Al_the_Allo said:

Maybe a stupid question, but wasn't the Spitfire XIV also available with a bubble canopy? Unfortunately, I didn't find much to do with it, except that I think even Spit MK IX were equipped with it at the end of the war.

 

Yes, but Bubbletops appeared very late in the war for IX and XIV. April/May earliest, so out of scope of BoBP. 

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1 hour ago, sevenless said:

 

Yes, but Bubbletops appeared very late in the war for IX and XIV. April/May earliest, so out of scope of BoBP. 

 

Didn't the XVIs get the bubble canopy first?

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19 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

 

Didn't the XVIs get the bubble canopy first?

 

Don´t have any data about that. All I know for XVIs I know from Listemann, Phil H. The Supermarine Spitfire Mk. XVI: The British: Volume 12 (Squadrons!).

 

"From February 1945, the rear fuselage was cut down and a ‘teardrop’ canopy was introduced into production schedules."

 

He has some nice skins in there:

 

Supermarine Spitfire LF. XVIe TB898 No. 66 Squadron Flight Lieutenant George ROBERTS (RAAF) B.106/Twente (Netherlands), April 1945

Supermarine Spitfire LF. XVIe TB675 No. 74 Squadron Squadron Leader Anthony J. ‘Tony’ REEVES B.105/Drope (Germany), summer 1945

Supermarine Spitfire LF. XVIe TD324 No. 145 Wing Wing Commander Ralph W.M. ‘Sammy’ SAMPSON B.105/Drope (Germany), summer 1945

 

 

 

66sqd.jpg

74sqd.jpg

145wing.jpg

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

 

Spamming the same stuff over and over and over and over again without any content never gets old, right?

 

Talisman seem to have ‘forgotten’ to mention that after the V-1 campaign XIV units were ordered to revert to 130 grade fuel and they did not use the higher boost associated with the higher grade fuel, which was approved only due to the V-1 launches.

 

The document regarding the revert to 130

grade  has been known for Talisman for a long time.

 

Can you please summarize to us the number of air to air victories claimed by these seemingly legions of XIVs for the entire year of 1944. For context, you know.

Edited by VO101Kurfurst
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Talisman seem to have ‘forgotten’ to mention that after the V-1 campaign XIV units were ordered to revert to 130 grade fuel and they did not use the higher boost associated with the higher grade fuel, which was approved only due to the V-1 launches.

 

The document regarding the revert to 130

grade  has been known for Talisman for a long time.

 

12th August 1944

backfire-2.jpg

 

6th September 1944

 

 

Re-rating_V-1650-7_6sept44.jpg

 

Definitely worth noting that the V-1 threat was considered pretty much over by early August with all Spitfire IXs pulled from "anti-diver duty" by August 6th 1944.

 

January 1945

 

engines-cleared-for-150.jpg

Edited by Talon_
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

 

12th August 1944

backfire-2.jpg

 

6th September 1944

 

 

Re-rating_V-1650-7_6sept44.jpg

 

Definitely worth noting that the V-1 threat was considered pretty much over by early August with all Spitfire IXs pulled from "anti-diver duty" by August 6th 1944.

 

January 1945

 

engines-cleared-for-150.jpg

 

Well, if you wish to strenghten the perception that you have the habit of cherry picking only the documents to fit your agenda, and ignore the documents that than congratulations, you have succeeded.

 

However ff you wish to prove that the use 150 grade fuel and the increased boost associated with select fighter squadrons assigned to deal with the V-1 manace in the summer,  including a handful equipped Spitfire XIVs would have continued in September after the V-1 launches against Eng ceased, you have failed, as to the following document you do not seem to advertise so much testifies beyond any reasonable doubt.

 

The use of 150 grade fuel ceased with the elapse of the V-1 attacks, due to difficulties with supply and logistics in England, and the 2nd TAF on the European mainland to which many of the Squadrons were transferred in late September 1944 did not have 150 grade supplies to begin with. 

 

BTW its hillarious entertainment that you have just claimed that the V-1 threat has already ended by 6th August, while posting a document that says on 12th August that all engines capable of anti-diver operations are being modified. 😄 😄 😄

 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

   
  HEADQUARTERS:
          AIR DEFENCE GREAT BRITAIN.
                  ROYAL AIR FORCE
                          BENTLEY PRIORY
                                  STANMORE
                                          MIDDLESEX
  18th September 1944.

 

Use of 150 Grade Fuel

Sir,

        I have the honor to refer to the above subject, and state that during the last 6 months a considerable amount of experience has been gained in A.D.G.B. with the use of 150 Grade Fuel in operational aircraft. The use of this fuel allowed higher boost pressures, which gave substantial increases in aircraft performance, and these increases were of great value when Squadrons of A.D.G.B. were employed against the flying bomb. Attached at Appendix “A” is a summary of the experience gained.

2.        Because the flying bomb menace no longer exists, and because under existing operational commitments, aircraft of A.D.G.B. will have to refuel at landing grounds in Belgium or Holland, it has been decided to revert to the use of 130 Grade Fuel and to adjust engines to their previous maximum boost pressure. To continue to use 150 Grade Fuel in operational Squadrons is undesirable for the following reasons:-

(i) The free interchange of Squadrons with T.A.F would be complicated in that aircraft would have to be modified for the lower boost pressure on transfer.
(ii) To use 150 Grade Fuel when operating from U.K and to use 130 Grade Fuel when refueling on the Continent, would call for repeated adjustments of the maximum boost pressure obtainable.
(iii) The increased performance obtainable by the use of 150 Grade Fuel is not an essential operational requirement for the role, which A.D.G.B. Squadrons will be called to undertake in the near future.
(iv) The supply of 150 Grade Fuel is such that stocks can only be laid down a certain airfields. This imposes a degree of inflexibility, which is undesirable.
(v) The use of high boost pressures in Mosquito aircraft calls for the fitting of open exhausts as the night flying exhausts will not withstand the temperatures associated with the higher boost pressures. Therefore, to continue to use the higher boost pressures in Mosquito aircraft makes the aircraft unsuitable for normal Night Fighter operation.

The Air Officer Commanding-in – Chief, 
Headquarters 
Allied Expeditionary Air Force.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

Edited by VO101Kurfurst
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Well, if you wish to strenghten the perception that you have the habit of cherry picking only the documents to fit your agenda, and ignore the documents that than congratulations, you have succeeded.

 

However ff you wish to prove that the use 150 grade fuel and the increased boost associated with select fighter squadrons assigned to deal with the V-1 manace in the summer,  including a handful equipped Spitfire XIVs would have continued in September after the V-1 launches against Eng ceased, you have failed, as to the following document you do not seem to advertise so much testifies beyond any reasonable doubt.

 

The use of 150 grade fuel ceased with the elapse of the V-1 attacks, due to difficulties with supply and logistics in England, and the 2nd TAF on the European mainland to which many of the Squadrons were transferred in late September 1944 did not have 150 grade supplies to begin with. 

 

BTW its hillarious entertainment that you have just claimed that the V-1 threat has already ended by 6th August, while posting a document that says on 12th August that all engines capable of anti-diver operations are being modified. 😄 😄 😄

 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

   
  HEADQUARTERS:
          AIR DEFENCE GREAT BRITAIN.
                  ROYAL AIR FORCE
                          BENTLEY PRIORY
                                  STANMORE
                                          MIDDLESEX
  18th September 1944.

 

Use of 150 Grade Fuel

Sir,

        I have the honor to refer to the above subject, and state that during the last 6 months a considerable amount of experience has been gained in A.D.G.B. with the use of 150 Grade Fuel in operational aircraft. The use of this fuel allowed higher boost pressures, which gave substantial increases in aircraft performance, and these increases were of great value when Squadrons of A.D.G.B. were employed against the flying bomb. Attached at Appendix “A” is a summary of the experience gained.

2.        Because the flying bomb menace no longer exists, and because under existing operational commitments, aircraft of A.D.G.B. will have to refuel at landing grounds in Belgium or Holland, it has been decided to revert to the use of 130 Grade Fuel and to adjust engines to their previous maximum boost pressure. To continue to use 150 Grade Fuel in operational Squadrons is undesirable for the following reasons:-

(i) The free interchange of Squadrons with T.A.F would be complicated in that aircraft would have to be modified for the lower boost pressure on transfer.
(ii) To use 150 Grade Fuel when operating from U.K and to use 130 Grade Fuel when refueling on the Continent, would call for repeated adjustments of the maximum boost pressure obtainable.
(iii) The increased performance obtainable by the use of 150 Grade Fuel is not an essential operational requirement for the role, which A.D.G.B. Squadrons will be called to undertake in the near future.
(iv) The supply of 150 Grade Fuel is such that stocks can only be laid down a certain airfields. This imposes a degree of inflexibility, which is undesirable.
(v) The use of high boost pressures in Mosquito aircraft calls for the fitting of open exhausts as the night flying exhausts will not withstand the temperatures associated with the higher boost pressures. Therefore, to continue to use the higher boost pressures in Mosquito aircraft makes the aircraft unsuitable for normal Night Fighter operation.

The Air Officer Commanding-in – Chief, 
Headquarters 
Allied Expeditionary Air Force.

 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

This never happened as the source you quote that from immediately specifies that the RAF continued to use 2,000 tons of 150 grade fuel in the month immediately after that letter.

Edited by Talon_
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Posted (edited)
On 5/30/2019 at 10:53 AM, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Nope, in 1944 the 'flying element' was 16 aircraft with 8 reserve (though as with all things, availability on the day varied between the 2).

 

No, the operational flying element was 12 aicraft in practice, and they have never used more than 12 aircraft on operations - at most, a 12+1 formation.

You are making up stuff like those 600 XIVs that you envisioned flying operations in late 1943... no need to invent things when we have the historical records.

 

You might start making a point by finding actual recorded examples of 16 aircraft of a British fighter squadron flying in operations - but you  probably will have better luck trying to find pink elephants.

 

Looking through the actual historical records, I cannot find any example of 16 plane 'flying elements' actually being in the air. Even a full squadron of twelve Spitfire XIVs in the air was a rather rare event, partly due to the lack of aircraft, and party because for most of 1944 they were just flying defensive patrols over England and the Channel ports, done usually in pairs since so few aircraft and squadrons were available, and it made better use of what they had for 99,9% uneventful staning patrols. This practice hardly changed when they moved over to continental Europe. 

 

Quote

 

Interesting that 'reserve' in your sense (platforms on the airfield should not be counted) are 'removed from ToE'.. Why is this? They had been build and delivered. They are counted.

 

Reserve aircraft do not fly operations just like unservicable aircraft do not fly operations.

 

Quote

Let us - for good manners - not get into a debate about how many Luftwaffe aircraft sat on various fields devoid of POL< aircrew, mechanics or simply lost in the post. If they left the factories at all - which many did not.

 

You have no idea of LW POLs and their operations late in the war. I have access to both, and I see how little sense you make. 

 

Quote

 

Also, Hurries in RAF service at this time would be akin to Ar. 96: not operational but an OCU aircraft. Unless you can find any Hurricane squadrons on the continent at all from 6th June 1944?

 

Your fixation on Hurricanes that nobody mentions and Ar 96s that nobody mentioned is amusing, but irrelevant to the point at hand.

 

1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

 

This never happened as the source you quote that from immediately specifies that the RAF continued to use 2,000 tons of 150 grade fuel in the month immediately after that letter.

 

Sooooo they transferred XIVs and Tempests from England, just as they decided in mid-September to cease use of 150 grade fuel entirely for the aircraft engaged in anti-diver operations, because its not practical, because 2nd TAF does not have this fuel, and because they do not have enough of it anyway, and even as they transferred the same aircraft to a place (2ndTAF) where they did not have any 150 grade fuel in the first place, but this does not matter because 'it never happened'. 

 

Oookay.   :crazy:

Edited by VO101Kurfurst
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Sooooo they transferred XIVs and Tempests from England, just as they decided in mid-September to cease use of 150 grade fuel entirely for the aircraft engaged in anti-diver operations, because its not practical, because 2nd TAF does not have this fuel, and because they do not have enough of it anyway, and even as they transferred the same aircraft to a place (2ndTAF) where they did not have any 150 grade fuel in the first place, but this does not matter because 'it never happened'. 

 

Oookay.   

 

As you know 2TAF were running 150 grade fuel across all wings only a few weeks later. Spitfires could run on 130 octane by reversing the throttle stop depicted and labelled in our own IL-2 Mk.IX cockpit.

Edited by Talon_

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3 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

As you know 2TAF were running 150 grade fuel across all wings only a few weeks later.

 

No, I actually do not 'know', and you are literally the only person who claims that, and your 'evidence' is basically a google spreadsheet of your own making... :crazy:

 

3 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Spitfires could run on 130 octane by reversing the throttle stop depicted and labelled in our own IL-2 Mk.IX cockpit.

 

And...?

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12 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

No, I actually do not 'know', and you are literally the only person who claims that, and your 'evidence' is basically a google spreadsheet of your own making... :crazy:

 

With every source listed including ones you kindly provided me in the past 😁

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