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aft1983

Spitfire XIV should be included in BOBP

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Posted (edited)

1.jpg

 

22CA683FC261F78FE12492776C5F1696.png

you can see the above words in this: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

Edited by aft1983
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It is a sexy plane, wouldn't mind having it if the devs have time.

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3 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

It is a sexy plane, wouldn't mind having it if the devs have time.

i hope so

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Never heard of it OP,  you should tell the developers about this airplane.

 

Be sure to underline and use bold font with red text so they know you are serious.

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giphy.gif

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The bubble top version also should be included in Bodenplatte. It was in service in 1945 and the non-bubble top Spitfire XIV in 8/1944.

Why no Griffon Spitfires?:salute:

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They forghet about it but well sure get Tempest MkV wioth 13lbs boost as modification like 1.98K4, just wait and see 😄 

Be lucky we get Spitfire 9 and not Spitfire V to fight 1945 D9s 1.98K4s and no engine problems 262s

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There are lots of planes that should/could be in BoBP . . . Mk14 is only one of them.

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Timely and most original request, as the last of the numerous threads on the same subject is already on page 2 and half the aircraft orignally intended for development is already released for beta. People must hear of this injustice.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, aft1983 said:

 

7.jpg

22CA683FC261F78FE12492776C5F1696.png

 

 

 

First combat report (I see) that mention "wing broke off". :)

Edited by Sokol1

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8 hours ago, sevenless said:

They know already

 

thanks

 

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On 5/25/2019 at 4:16 AM, aft1983 said:

actually,21lb XIV exists,1.98ata  k4 doesn't

So did 25lb boost Spitfire XIVs.

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8 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

So did 25lb boost Spitfire XIVs.

i know it,but not in WWII

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22 hours ago, aft1983 said:

actually,this is the real XIV

 

 


RN201:MK-14E build in feb45, put in a warehouse for3 years, send to Belgiam-AF End 48', crachlanded Feb1950....a perfect exeample of an airframe not having see the WWII, like most of the MK14's...
:popcorm:

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13 minutes ago, JV69badatflyski said:


RN201:MK-14E build in feb45, put in a warehouse for3 years, send to Belgiam-AF End 48', crachlanded Feb1950....a perfect exeample of an airframe not having see the WWII, like most of the MK14's...
:popcorm:

you mean the plane in above picture?

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RN201 XIVe 6S.663417 KEA G65 MU 20-2-45 ? 350S to BAF as SG-31 11-2-48 heavy landing crashed 5-2-50 SOC extant Beauvechain as CE-A

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31 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

RN201 XIVe 6S.663417 KEA G65 MU 20-2-45 ? 350S to BAF as SG-31 11-2-48 heavy landing crashed 5-2-50 SOC extant Beauvechain as CE-A

You mean,the  plane in above picture may have already crashed?

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Yes, and was decomissionned.
SOC = Struck of charge
 

Milo, do you know where was the 350 around mid Mars45?
The average time of delivery from factory to Squad in 45 was 4periods (40days) but if we take the best most optimistic range of 20days, that's when 350received the frame.

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Posted (edited)

Was on the continent from Dec '44.

 

December 1944: B.56 Evere
December 1944-January 1945: Y.32 As/ Ophoven
January-March 1945: B.78 Eindhoven
March-April 1945: Warmwell
April 1945: B.78 Eindhoven
April 1945: B.106 Twente
April-May 1945: B.118 Celle
May-June 1945: B.152 Fassberg
June-July 1945: B.172 Husum
July-November 1945: B.116 Wunstorf
November 1945-October 1946: B.152 Fassberg
October 1946: Beauvechain

 

Also should be noted, Bodenplatte Allied losses were replaced within days.

Little factoid. Jan 1 1945 there was one staffel (squadron) of 1.98ata K-4s of which 7 were serviceable. In contrast there was 6 squadrons of Spitfire XIVs with over 100 a/c.

Edited by MiloMorai
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Posted (edited)

Thanks milo,
found something more precise here: http://www.350sqn.be/index.html
Seems they went back to England for 2 weeks in45, they needed holidays certainly:P

EDIT:
Seems  that the RN201 is not listed in the airframes used by the 350sq (see link above), so is the Spit production wrong or are the 350sq records wrong?

About the K4 numbers i'll let you argue with Kurfy:biggrin:
The MK14 numbers are going well, once finished will be put in PDF available to download.


350SQ Belgian

Group Airfield County/Country

Date

9 Valley Anglesey 13/11/41
9 Atcham Salop 19/02/42
10 Warmwell Dorset 05/04/42
11 Debden Essex 15/04/42
11 Gravesend Kent 30/06/42
11 Martlesham H. Suffolk 07/07/42
11 Kenley Surrey 16/07/42
11 Redhill Surrey 31/07/42
11 Martlesham H. Suffolk 07/09/42
11 Redhill Surrey 15/09/42
11 Rochford Essex 23/09/42
11 Hornchurch Essex 07/12/42
11 Heston Middlesex 01/03/43
11 Debden Essex 05/03/43
11 Hornchurch Essex 13/03/43
11 Fairlop Essex 15/03/43
13 Acklington Northumberland 23/03/43
13 Ouston Northumberland 08/06/43
13 Acklington Northumberland 20/07/43
12 Digby Lincolnshire 25/08/43
11 West Malling Kent 07/09/43
12 Digby Lincolnshire 19/09/43
11 Hawkinge Kent 01/10/43
11 Rochford Essex 12/10/43
11 Hawkinge Kent 31/10/43
11 Hornchurch Essex 30/12/43
9 Llanbedr Merioneth 08/02/44
11 Hornchurch Essex 19/02/44
11 Hawkinge Kent 10/03/44
14 Peterhead Aberdeenshire 14/03/44
11 Friston Sussex 25/04/44
11 Westhampnett Sussex 03/07/44
11 Hawkinge Kent 08/08/44
83 Lympne Kent 29/09/44
83 Evere Belgium 03/12/44
83 Ophoven  Belgium 31/12/44
83 Eindhoven  Netherlands 27/01/45
10 Warmwell Dorset 17/03/45
83 Eindhoven  Netherlands 03/04/45
83 Twente Netherlands 08/04/45
83 Celle Germany 16/04/45
83 Fassberg Germany 06/05/45

 

Edited by JV69badatflyski

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There are, as you found, sites that are more specific.

 

In the link there is no SG31 mentioned so I suspect not all Spit XIVs are listed.

 

17/03/1945

The Squadron moves to Warmwell for an Armament Practice Camp.

 

13/01/1945

The Squadron again has a full strength of Spitfires.

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On 5/27/2019 at 3:34 PM, JV69badatflyski said:

Yes, and was decomissionned.
SOC = Struck of charge
 

Milo, do you know where was the 350 around mid Mars45?
The average time of delivery from factory to Squad in 45 was 4periods (40days) but if we take the best most optimistic range of 20days, that's when 350received the frame.

Not sure if have have missunderstood you here, but not sure where you are getting this delivery time from that you have stated.  I think you will find that Spitfires were not delivered direct from the factory to an operational squadron.  Spitfires and other combat aircraft were stock piled in large numbers at dispersal airfields, after flight testing, in England ready to be sent out to operational squadrons as replacements, when needed, within hours/days.  Moreover, in addition to brand new replacement aircraft, repaired replacement fighters were ready to be sent out to front line squadrons from aircraft combat repair centres that specialised in the repair of battle damaged aircraft that had already been replaced on operational units.  In 1945 the Allies had more Spitfires than they knew what to do with.  Allied aircraft lost during Operation Bodenplatte were mostly replaced within the week!  See extract from this article below:

 

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/coral-sea-in-color-watch-mx.html

 

It is estimated that Operation Bodenplatte destroyed 305 Allied aircraft and damaged another 190. Although, due to improper records of losses, mostly by the Americans, this figure is challenged and some believe it to be much higher.

Regardless, the operation was far from a success. The Allies lost very few pilots and were well enough supplied in Europe by this point to replace almost all their lost aircraft within the week.

The Luftwaffe, however, lost about 280 aircraft and, more critically, lost many pilots: 143 killed or missing and 70 captured. Among these were many officers, formation leaders and veteran flyers, leaving the few left with crippled resources and often inexperienced pilots for the defense of Germany.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, JV69badatflyski said:

About the K4 numbers i'll let you argue with Kurfy:biggrin:

 

He needs to get his head around some facts first to do that. ;)

 

Quote

The MK14 numbers are going well, once finished will be put in PDF available to download.

       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       

 

Excellent, I am looking very much forward to see the numbers. Seeing the exact deliveres of XIVs by month, heck even per week was very interesting and educational on the extent and timing of operational deployment. I did similar reasearch work myself, but not quite as detailed as yours.

 

Edit. Forum engine went loco it seems. Oh well.

Edited by VO101Kurfurst

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

Not sure if have have missunderstood you here, but not sure where you are getting this delivery time from that you have stated.  I think you will find that Spitfires were not delivered direct from the factory to an operational squadron.  Spitfires and other combat aircraft were stock piled in large numbers at dispersal airfields, after flight testing, in England ready to be sent out to operational squadrons as replacements, when needed, within hours/days.  Moreover, in addition to brand new replacement aircraft, repaired replacement fighters were ready to be sent out to front line squadrons from aircraft combat repair centres that specialised in the repair of battle damaged aircraft that had already been replaced on operational units.  In 1945 the Allies had more Spitfires than they knew what to do with.  Allied aircraft lost during Operation Bodenplatte were mostly replaced within the week!  See extract from this article below:

 


Hi talisman!, 
maybe you misunderstood or maybe i simply didn't explain the methodology used here for the statistics.
let me show you how i work: an example of the DB
spit14example.thumb.PNG.6cae56dcba8895e8401b506bfbc6601f.PNG

 

First: the timeline for each month is split in 3 periods of 10 days (all months have 31 days, was lazy here :biggrin: )

The situation recorded is what was on the 10th/20st/31st of each month. What means IF  an airframe was delivered on the 12th but went SoC on the 19th, it will be categorized as   SoC and it's active service of 7 days is not counted.


Second: AWDL= awaiting delivery to operationnal squad. If an airframe has not been assigned yet, it's considered as AWDL.

 You may see that when an airframe is been used for testing, it's not considered as delivered but is categorized as TEST, what means it's a non-combat airframe and not counted  as  ACTIVE what is shown in green and starts with SQ than the squad number. (GSU are also considered as active )


Take a look at at the RB141 for example: when leaving factory, it went directly somewhere to be modified and tested. When the tests were done, it went to a "parking" for 5 periods  and then was assigned to SQ-322 and then went SoC.

 IF, When, there is a date missing in the list between the day it leaved the factory and the assignement to squadron, i took 2 periods (20days), as this was the smallest delay   between manufacturing and assignement in the list. The 3 or 4 that went from factory to squad in less than 10days have not been taken into account for the this average. Those 20 days are the most optimistic time!

So, like you may see, there is a nice visual representation of the time between leaving the factory and being assigned. What interest me the most is the actual number of assigned (combat active) airframes. The rest is just for pure curiosity. The total numbers of airframes built doesn't mean they all saw service, a lot of them actually didn't and i took in my list ONLY the airframes build BEFORE 10th May45. Wat happens after doesn't interest me at all.

Anyway, i still have some issues with some "acronymes", not being sure of what those organisations were, i hope i could send you a pm one of those day hoping you could give me some light about it...:salute:


            

Edited by JV69badatflyski

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

He needs to get his head around some facts first to do that. ;)

.

The Establishment Strength of the K-4 JGs was 820 a/c on Jan 1 1945. The JGs were at 20% of ES.

 

Only 90 were serviceable and capable of operations, or just under 11%. Less than 1% were 1.98ata K-4s.😲

 

Laugh all you want Kurf but those are the facts.

Edited by MiloMorai
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badski, you are saying that Spitfire XIVs were produced in such numbers that they had to be put in storage since front line units were at their ES? Replacement a/c could be supplied to these units within days of the request for a/c.

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Milo, 
Not, that's not what i'm saying, i simply see the fact that between production and operationnal status , there was a huge delay.
Statistics can be interpreted the way you want, depending of your agenda.
Production numbers are nothing of value if the planes aren't send to combat, the same situation as for the spitfire was present in germany, with houndreds/thousends airplanes lying down in delivery pools waiting for action. So when you say that on day X there were only 9 109 available from the 26, well the same certainly happened to the spits...
In this case, i'll provide only the assignement numbers, not the AVAILABLE numbers, it's a huge difference!

With Could Be, Would Be, Wanna Be, you could speak german now, having a weekly cramp in your right shoulder,  NY and Washington Would be a radioactive Wasteland and Adolf WOULD be still alive with a cyborg body riding a T-Rex...
:biggrin:

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Its perfectly the norm that most aircraft sit in storage, ready to be issued to the troops. You can’t just dump heaps of unconfigured new aircraft to frontline airfields without building proper organisation to maintain, support and fly them. Re-arming and retraining existing units also takes time and required the unit to be pulled back from operations for a while.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, JV69badatflyski said:


Hi talisman!, 
maybe you misunderstood or maybe i simply didn't explain the methodology used here for the statistics.
let me show you how i work: an example of the DB
spit14example.thumb.PNG.6cae56dcba8895e8401b506bfbc6601f.PNG

 

First: the timeline for each month is split in 3 periods of 10 days (all months have 31 days, was lazy here :biggrin: )

The situation recorded is what was on the 10th/20st/31st of each month. What means IF  an airframe was delivered on the 12th but went SoC on the 19th, it will be categorized as   SoC and it's active service of 7 days is not counted.


Second: AWDL= awaiting delivery to operationnal squad. If an airframe has not been assigned yet, it's considered as AWDL.

 You may see that when an airframe is been used for testing, it's not considered as delivered but is categorized as TEST, what means it's a non-combat airframe and not counted  as  ACTIVE what is shown in green and starts with SQ than the squad number. (GSU are also considered as active )


Take a look at at the RB141 for example: when leaving factory, it went directly somewhere to be modified and tested. When the tests were done, it went to a "parking" for 5 periods  and then was assigned to SQ-322 and then went SoC.

 IF, When, there is a date missing in the list between the day it leaved the factory and the assignement to squadron, i took 2 periods (20days), as this was the smallest delay   between manufacturing and assignement in the list. The 3 or 4 that went from factory to squad in less than 10days have not been taken into account for the this average. Those 20 days are the most optimistic time!

So, like you may see, there is a nice visual representation of the time between leaving the factory and being assigned. What interest me the most is the actual number of assigned (combat active) airframes. The rest is just for pure curiosity. The total numbers of airframes built doesn't mean they all saw service, a lot of them actually didn't and i took in my list ONLY the airframes build BEFORE 10th May45. Wat happens after doesn't interest me at all.

Anyway, i still have some issues with some "acronymes", not being sure of what those organisations were, i hope i could send you a pm one of those day hoping you could give me some light about it...:salute:


            

While this sort of crude number crunching is kind of interesting and all that, it's hardly relevant to the OP "Spitfire XIV should be included in BOBP", unless badatflyski is trying to say that the Spitfire XIV is irrelevant to Bodenplatte because many of them were built and/or delivered post war, or that (apparently) deliveries to front-line squadrons were slow? That it took an "average" of 20 days for Spitfire XIVs to filter into squadron service is nothing new or sensational - all it means is that the Spitfire XIVs on front-line squadrons weren't suffering from a punishing attrition rate, while those that were being delivered as replacements had been fully serviced, inspected and - if necessary - modified updated/upgraded in GSUs and the like, prior to front-line service. (see attached)

 

None of this changes the fact that the Spitfire XIV was operational in 2 TAF service before, during and after Bodenplatte...

2nd Tactical Air Force Vol 3162.jpg

Edited by NZTyphoon

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20 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

While this sort of crude number crunching is kind of interesting and all that, it's hardly relevant to the OP "Spitfire XIV should be included in BOBP", unless badatflyski is trying to say that the Spitfire XIV is irrelevant to Bodenplatte because many of them were built and/or delivered post war, or that (apparently) deliveries to front-line squadrons were slow?

 

Don't put words in other persons mounths. the 14 was there, flew there, fought there and should be included.That's why i wrote a long time before.

 

22 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

That it took an "average" of 20 days for Spitfire XIVs to filter into squadron service is nothing new or sensational - all it means is that the Spitfire XIVs on front-line squadrons weren't suffering from a punishing attrition rate, while those that were being delivered as replacements had been fully serviced, inspected and - if necessary - modified updated/upgraded in GSUs and the like, prior to front-line service. (see attached)


No, it took much more than 20days, the average will be calculated once data is finished, removing both extremes. I took the 20 days into calculation because it was the best delivery time.

There was enough stock to replace the fallen ones, but in feb45, Tha Raf decided to send most of them to India, for whatever reason.
GSU were personnal delivery pools, nothing more. GSU83 linked to Group83, GSU84 linked to Group84....Upgrades and modifs were done in England and mostly at dedicated MU's (from the data used here)

 

31 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

None of this changes the fact that the Spitfire XIV was operational in 2 TAF service before, during and after Bodenplatte...


Who argued that fact?
The goal of those numbers is to demonstrate and kill the Web-Legend that the 14 flew in Hordes, with houndreds of airplanes...
actually it was a very small part of all Spitfire, the most numerous were the 9 and the 5.

KR

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1 hour ago, JV69badatflyski said:

Milo, 
Not, that's not what i'm saying, i simply see the fact that between production and operationnal status , there was a huge delay.
Statistics can be interpreted the way you want, depending of your agenda.
Production numbers are nothing of value if the planes aren't send to combat, the same situation as for the spitfire was present in germany, with houndreds/thousends airplanes lying down in delivery pools waiting for action. So when you say that on day X there were only 9 109 available from the 26, well the same certainly happened to the spits...
In this case, i'll provide only the assignement numbers, not the AVAILABLE numbers, it's a huge difference!

With Could Be, Would Be, Wanna Be, you could speak german now, having a weekly cramp in your right shoulder,  NY and Washington Would be a radioactive Wasteland and Adolf WOULD be still alive with a cyborg body riding a T-Rex...
:biggrin:

What matters is the time taken from a request submitted til the time the request has been filled.

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29 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

What matters is the time taken from a request submitted til the time the request has been filled.


agree with you on that one, but it opens a new dilemma as there are 2 situations:
1° the Raf Command decide to equip certain squads with new Mark type. Who takes the decision? how the whole process is handled from administrative pov to the Factory , the Pool's and the squadrons?
2°Replacement request from Squadron to RAF command because of SoC. What's the flow?

Now, is any data available for those situations? if yes, is it possible to link any airframe number to a request number? it's the only way to see the real time needed  for each airframe.
I based the stats on the most complete data available, it provides a general view, not a perfect view as it would be needed to dig into each squad archives to determine the availablity based on the assigned airframes. As for the time needed from request to delivery, unless someone can provide the docs for ALL airframes, it's impossible to know....
and now waiting for a cherry picked document....
:popcorm:

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Squadron ORBs might be of some use badski.

 

There is also RAF status reports. Iirc they are bi-weekly.

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Could this not be settled far more easily? XIV-equipped squadrons had a minimum of 16 and (likely) maximum of 24 aircraft on-hand. There are y squadrons at any given point.

 

Therefore minimum XIVs on a a given day is y by 16 and likely maximum in the squadrons themselves is y by 24. Availability, re-supply etc. would probably place the number in reality between these margins. But UK, being not under attack or suffering from POL and other shortages is better placed to resupply where needed. Against this is the anticipation of a new Pacific camping, which has many of the latest generation deployed with Tiger Force, rather than the ending NW Europe operation.

 

If I understand correctly, there are at least 6 XIV squadrons applicable to Bodenplatte time-frame and map, which puts the number of aircraft on frontline squadron books at between 96 and 144 on establishment, not counting in the pipeline. This is not a huge number, but it is a couple of fighter wings and certainly more than other types that have been included.

 

Also, as argued, it was not a priority because it did not need to be a priority, given the focus on A2G operations.

 

By this measure it is a perfectly logical candidate for a collectors' aircraft. |t saw service in multiple squadrons and is recorded by endless documents as having so done, it was the zenith of wartime Spitfire design, it was the first to claim a victory over the Ar-234 and - for game purposes - is a perfect opponent to the K-4.

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As of 18th May 1944, Spitfires with Sqn's:

 

MkV     531
MKVII  62
MK VIII  209
MK IX   996
Mk XII   22
MK XIV 61.

 

Spitfire XIV totals as of 14 December 1944: 

Operationally fit sqns = 120

In A.S.U = 127 

Total = 247 

 

As of 27 December 1944, the units concerned were:

 

in 125 Wing : 41 sqn, 130 sqn, 350 sqn, 610 sqn, all XIVs

in 126 Wing: 402 sqn with XIVs, plus a mix of IX Sqns.

 

Recce Squadrons

430 sqn (XIV)

2 sqn. (mix of Mustang II and XIVs)

 

RAF Sqn at the time is IIRC 12 flying plus 8 reserve aircraft. So assuming full 12 plane Squadrons for operations (reserve aircraft did not fly), the five XIV fighter Squadrons could theoretically put up 60 planes in the air at a time.
 

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May 1 1944 there was 1 Flight of Hurricanes with ADGB and none with 2 TAF.

 

On Sept 1 1944 there was 30 squadrons of Spitfires with 2ATF and 22 squadrons of Spitfires with ADGB. No Hurricanes.

 

 

51 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Also, as argued, it was not a priority because it did not need to be a priority, given the focus on A2G operations.

 

Also, there was other a/c like the Tempest and American P-38s, P-47s and P-51s.

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3 hours ago, JV69badatflyski said:

There was enough stock to replace the fallen ones, but in feb45, Tha Raf decided to send most of them to India, for whatever reason.

GSU were personnal delivery pools, nothing more. GSU83 linked to Group83, GSU84 linked to Group84....Upgrades and modifs were done in England and mostly at dedicated MU's (from the data used here)

Er..., did you read the attachment which, BTW is from Shores and Thomas' 2nd Tactical Air Force; Volume Three?

 

Quote

...83 and 84 Group Support Units (GSU) which then became responsible for maintaining a pool of aircraft prepared to operational standard and ready to issue to units of the parent group.This entailed final modifications and adjustments (eg. canon and RP harmonisation, radio set up) and test flights....83 and 84 GSUs were particularly large units. They were tasked with maintaining a pool of reserve aircraft - with three prepared for service for each squadron in the Group

 

3 hours ago, JV69badatflyski said:

Who argued that fact?

The goal of those numbers is to demonstrate and kill the Web-Legend that the 14 flew in Hordes, with houndreds of airplanes...

actually it was a very small part of all Spitfire, the most numerous were the 9 and the 5.
 

No one is saying that the XIV "flew in hordes" or in hundreds, but nor were they as insignificant as some people like to think: as it was, there wasn't much need for large formations of Spitfire XIVs, because the Luftwaffe fighters were hardly ever seen. Then there was the weather, which, in January '45 for example, didn't allow for a lot of operational flying (eg. 610 Sqn Summary of Events, Jan '41):

610 Sqn SOE Jan 19451.jpg

610 Sqn SOE Jan 19452.jpg

610 Sqn SOE Jan 19453.jpg

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Posted (edited)

I find this arguing about Sqn strengths and aircraft dispersal,  production numbers etc utterly bizarre.  it’s trying to rationalise what happens in Bobp based on what happened at the end of 44 and the first few months of 45.  While the basic premise of Bobp might be rooted in a historical situation what will actually happen in multiplayer will not be anything like (single player is less limited by aircraft performance than it is by the limitations of the A.I or sim generally).

 

Limiting the Allied side to the choices that were deemed important in late 44, early 45, for a whole different set of priorities, is ridiculous  If the Allies had been faced with a parity of AirPower by the Luftwaffe, all flying the best aircraft available, with no mission goal other than to engage, regardless of chances of success, all and at every opportunity then do you not think that the Allies might have changed their priorities just a smidge ?  If the Mk XIV had been needed to provide mastery of the air over Northern Europe then it would have been used for that purpose and the Tempest might have been kept in reserve to  shoot down V1’s. instead.

Edited by HagarTheHorrible
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