Gunner Problem

[MeoW.Scharfi]

First of all I want to clarify that this post is supposed to show people and developers, that there is a problem with gunners in IL2.

 

The game itself envolved to THE BEST World War II flight simulator out there and left it's concurrence in dust. So I have no intention to talk anything down about the products. I only want to help make it even better.

 

I fly already IL2 on a regular basis since the early access, with over 2500 hours. I saw like 99% of the problems being fixed by the developers. But there is one thing that still borders not only me, but another big part of the community.

 

The Tailgunner accuracy, which is way too good.

 

It is not a secret that I fly mostly fighters and dogfight with bombers, therefore me and a big part of the community has to face the problem regulary. Attacks on Bombers, especially from deadzones where gunners can't shoot, doesn't matter which plane or team they belong to, end up quite often in the destruction or badly damaged final state of the attacking plane.

 

The tailgunners have suspicious behavior in hitting your attacking Fighter all the time:

 

They will hit you when..

 

- you are diving at the bomber at maximum dive speed possible in the game(for example Fw190/P47)

- from deadzones/blindspots where they actually couldn't hit your plane

- you are turning away and making distance to the bomber

- you overfly them, even when you are really fast

- you try to evade with defensive maneuvers

- when their plane is damaged and falling to the ground

- their plane is already crashed, fliped and lying inverted on the ground

 

and this due inhuman reflexes and speed, the technique behind this reminds some of you of the technique similiar to aimbots in FPS/Shooters, i think(?) it's similiar.

 

It can be really good seen in here that those tailgunners are not behaving like a human being would, especially people who have tried the seat of the tailgunner themselves.

 

 

What would be my claim without examples and proofs, so i will post some of them here:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This one is good, the approaches were very careful, because he was aware about the gunner accuracy, so he was attacking save, didn't help much.

 

 

 

You see here few examples from popular youtubers from IL2, all the other cases of people who never record are not seen and unheard.

 

Now I want to clarify another thing.

 

- it has nothing to do with the bombers, it happens to all tailgunner planes, A20, Pe2, He111, Ju88.. et cetera

- it has nothing to do with the team, the blue and red team has this problem, the different weapon caliber have different results, but most of the time the flight is over for both either pilot killed or engine damaged,

- it has nothing to do with the skill level of gunners set on the server(We noticed, that this TAW has set their tailgunner skill to 30% medium and they are still deadly as hell, some videos above are from that)

 

there are a few other things important to know BEFORE replaying to this post.

 

#1st: Gunners are most accurate when the pilot flys auto-level or straight line WITHOUT maneuvering with the elevator at all. That's the reason why some of you bomber only pilots will claim that THEIR gunners never hit anything, sure my gunners don't hit anything as well, because i am maneuvering, they are so programmed i think(?) that their best accuracy is in a straight line.(yet there are even cases of maneuvering planes their tailgunners making impossible shots)

 

#2nd: I know this can be lead into a Pe2 kills everything discussion, sure Pe2 does make a lot of these wierd hits, but not only that, He 111s, Ju88s or Ju87s are doing the exact same thing to allied fighters, don't turn this into a "Pe2 is too overpowered discussion", it's a overall gunner discussion.

 

#3rd: And this might affect Bomber flyers, some of you won't understand the fighters point of view and therefore you will callout "bulls***". Because your gunners are not hitting anything or your hard mission  will become even worse when they make AI Gunners more human. But still this is supposed to be a flight simulator and the effectivness of AI gunners is way too much. You have to accept that Bombers were always a very vulnerable weapon which required fighter escort, especially in world war two. The statement "The bomber always comes through" theory got proven wrong in more than a few thousand deaths.

 

#4th: That problem appears mostly on multiplayer, i noticed that the singleplayer tailgunners are not dangerous most of the time.

 

Finally I plead for a civilized discussion even in my opinion there shouldn't be one needed.

 

Don't turn this thread into a Troll and salt-fest discussing no-sense and don't get off the track, please.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by MeoW.Scharfi

[CountZero]

In sp most ai bombers are lowest skill, so thats why no problem as its online, as online bombers are set to ace to give bomber players some chance as they cant fly in big formations or bomb target on suprise, bombers still get shoot down easy when ppl take them serious, ocasionaly you get some weard head shots from 500m while you pass 700kmh in that 10deg view of gunner but thats because gunners are set to ace. You can open MP misions in your mission builder and check for your self on what skill bombers are set on servers you play.

Maybe there is aditional problem of gunner knowing your position before you even get in his fov, but they say each gunner has his own brain so that should not hapned then, so probably problem is just in server hosts using max skill for gunners. And in sp its lovest skill.

Edited March 22, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[MeoW.Scharfi]

Just now, 77.CountZero said:

In sp most ai bombers are lowest skill, so thats why no problem as its online, as online bombers are set to ace to give bomber players some chance as they cant fly in big formations or bomb target on suprise, bombers still get shoot down easy when ppl take them serious, ocasionaly you get some weard head shots from 500m while you pass 700kmh in that 10deg view of gunner but thats because gunners are set to ace. You can open MP misions in your mission builder and check for your self on what skill bombers are set on servers you play.

Maybe there is aditional problem of gunner knowing your position before you even get in his fov, but they say each gunner has his own brain so that should not hapned then, so probably problem is just in server hosts using max skill for gunners. And in sp its lovest skill.

 

Not correct. As i wrote already above, the skill of gunners on TAW are set to 30% medium, they still snip you out of the skies.

Edited March 22, 2019 by MeoW.Scharfi

[WheelwrightPL]

You said it yourself very well: "Gunners are most accurate when the pilot flys auto-level or straight line WITHOUT maneuvering with the elevator at all. That's the reason why some of you bomber only pilots will claim that THEIR gunners never hit anything, sure my gunners don't hit anything as well, because i am maneuvering".

In most of the videos you showed the attacking fighters made their attack pass at a bomber but then they didn't jink aggressively like they should, instead they just flew in a straight line and got sniped. And as we said above, if the bomber's gunners get nerfed there will be little incentive to fly them because the only effective way to defend each bomber would be to organize a bomber formation with overlapping defenses the way B-17s flew in real life. It is hard to have this kind of organization and discipline online.

[CountZero]

Just now, MeoW.Scharfi said:

 

Not correct. As i wrote already above, the skill of gunners on TAW are set to 30% medium, they still snip you out of the skies.

And how many times per bomber, do you destroy 2 bombers and then get pk, or 10 bombers or 100 bombers, that would be nice to show, as im sure from fighters perspective this problem is differant then from bomber players perspective. There should be some test done and shown, 100 attacks on bomber for example and how many would be unsuccsefule, and how many would have some strange snipe hits, i still think its not big problem from what i expiriance attacking bombers online, ill get hit but its still more me getting bomber then bomber getting me by big differance to still have advantage as fighter vs bombers gunners even set on ace like they are on wol.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

I'll also say that there are times when the gunners will have an enemy at dead 6, 300m away, and not fire at all.  That said, I've attacked planes from angles where if I was in the gunner's FOV it was for less than 2 seconds and have even been shot the exact moment I popped into their firing cone.  It's almost as if they can 'see' through the plane and visually track your movement and draw a bead on you long before the actual FOV a real person sitting in the position would be able to. 

 

I do fly Pe-2 a lot (but I fly fighters as well) and many of the complaints I see in chat are from players who took bad angles and had very low relative closure speeds - but not all.  There certainly are times when pilots take the best angle to attack and egress only to get PK'd by a single bullet that a real person would not have had the time to aim - much less fire.  Many times I've flow fighters and attacked Ju-87s and Me110s, keeping low and in their blind spot only to find that the very moment I've gone above their horizon line a seemingly pre-fired volley of bullets is already in my flight path and smashing my windscreen.   

 

I can't say that I've ever seen a situation (from my fighter flights) where gunners can fire beyond the gun traverse range of their station, but I can believe it does happen.

 

I think it's also possible that (in reality) some gun stations have a greater gun traverse range than people believe.  A turret that can cover 92 degrees left or right vs. 90 can have a quite large boost in coverage the further the target is away.  A turret that can cover 90 degrees, but the gun itself can be swiveled on it's mount another 5 degrees can cove even more.  But, being that aiming the gun in those positions - except for the gunner just 'guessing' - is pretty much impossible, and super shots still get made, I think it's a bit more than pure luck.   

 

Tactically speaking, flying as straight and level as possible is the best way to give a gunner the best platform to shoot from but, also make the whole plane much more vulnerable to attack.  That said, even when the gunners have the most stable platform to work with, some of their shots are certainly 'trick shots'. 

 

I do agree that the gunners certainly could use a rework.  I also think that for online play gunner skill should be low(ered) but, if you successfully complete multiple missions and manage to keep the same crew alive, it should increase.   

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

Gunners not firing is another seperate issue, they dont shoot when you pull more than 1.5ish G

 

• Accuracy needs to be tied to speed delta
• Precision is too high across the board, you often eat like every hot in the salvo unless its a heated mg81
• No acceleration compensation (like an integrator term), you can literally circle over AA for days if you just keep a constant pull
• Make stuff modifiable for mission/servers like Arma does with its AI the different parameters

 

Another huge things is, gunners do not degrade at all, neither by being supressed due to impacts infront of their eyes neither by wounds

Edited March 22, 2019 by =FEW=N3croo
added gunner degradation

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

1 minute ago, =FEW=N3croo said:

Gunners not firing is another seperate issue, they dont shoot when you pull more than 1.5ish G

 

• Accuracy needs to be tied to speed delta
• Precision is too high across the board, you often eat like every hot in the salvo unless its a heated mg81
• No acceleration compensation (like an integrator term), you can literally circle over AA for days if you just keep a constant pull
• Make stuff modifiable for mission/servers like Arma does with its AI the different parameters

 

I've seen the gunners not fire when in shallow dives, climbs or level.  But, you are right. It is a separate issue. 

 

+ on the other points but AA is also a separate issue.  Unless, somehow they use the same AI as the in-airplane gunners. 

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

AA and gunners are the same controller type

[=[TIA]=I-Fly-Central]

I am a reasonably good shot, and I tried to replicate what that AI gunner did to me. Even with the 190 at CLOSER range than I was; I was not able to achieve that kind of accuracy from the A20's gunner position. The chances of even a trained human pulling off these kinds of shots is very low. The physics, and stress of real life would likely make it even harder.

  

Edited March 22, 2019 by I-Fly-Central

[Dakpilot]

When gunners are set to low it seems fairly good (sort of realistic in expectations) this is a solution (option) that can  be made by server operators. 

 

Offline, an option to set gunner skill independently by player should help. This should be a possibility that could be argued/petitioned  for 

 

If people were able to state/inform what skill the gunners have when they run into improbable situations it would help. 

 

Am sure devs are aware of the limitations and would prefer to have more realistic behavior linked to G and maneuvers etc. but that sounds like more Cpu cycles a lot of extra programming (time) and performance hit  (less bombers) 

 

Altogether things are not satisfactory but some testing with low gunners online by server operators could bring better experience (for fighter pilots) 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[FTC_DerSheriff]

I would like to add that this got worse in - i believe -  the first DM overhaul. The gunners got much more accurate and usually save attacks aren't save anymore.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I think especially Pe2 gunners are OP I know how to attack bombers but Pe2 can reliable snipe me out of position that for human it would be extremely unlikely. They accuracy do not change with wounds, Gs or other things likr smoke, fire, sun position etc. This should change because some times it is near game breaker. I know than some just   just ignore Pe2s  ... but this is not the solution IMHO

Edited March 22, 2019 by 307_Tomcat

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

7 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

And how many times per bomber, do you destroy 2 bombers and then get pk, or 10 bombers or 100 bombers, that would be nice to show, as im sure from fighters perspective this problem is differant then from bomber players perspective. There should be some test done and shown, 100 attacks on bomber for example and how many would be unsuccsefule, and how many would have some strange snipe hits, i still think its not big problem from what i expiriance attacking bombers online, ill get hit but its still more me getting bomber then bomber getting me by big differance to still have advantage as fighter vs bombers gunners even set on ace like they are on wol.

 Someone could pull statistical data from already recorded server logs for example  WOL. How many attack ended with damage / pk and time of it. Not all info is there but this could be good start.

Edited March 22, 2019 by 307_Tomcat

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

1 hour ago, 307_Tomcat said:

I think especially Pe2 gunners are OP I know how to attack bombers but Pe2 can reliable snipe me out of position that for human it would be extremely unlikely. They accuracy do not change with wounds, Gs or other things likr smoke, fire, sun position etc. This should change because some times it is near game breaker. I know than some just   just ignore Pe2s  ... but this is not the solution IMHO

 

Just a curiosity but, don't all planes use the same gunner AI routine?  If so, then the Pe-2 is not 'special' by any means and all planes concerned have this problem.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

2 minutes ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

 

Just a curiosity but, don't all planes use the same gunner AI routine?  If so, then the Pe-2 is not 'special' by any means and all planes concerned have this problem.

 

Well this is only my experience, it's true that most shortcomings are shared by all gunners.

Edited March 22, 2019 by 307_Tomcat

[=FEW=unicus]

I wholeheartedly agree with Scharfi. It's been painful to attack bombers, but since the DM updates its been horrible. This last TAW campaign I've had my engine shot up twice by bombers falling apart, with the gunner shooting at me AFTER the wing is off and the plane is tumbling down in pieces. Once by a Pe-2 and once by an A-20. It's come to a point where I've had squadmates not even wanting to attack Pe-2s because you kinda know the outcome in advance. It doesn't really matter if you do it properly (coming in at high speed, from above at an angle etc). I really need to start recording, because a couple of passes where the gunner hit me was beyond any reason and would just have added to Scharfis collection.

[PainGod85]

Agreeing with the OP. Gunner accuracy should be a function of delta-v (rate of closure), transversal speed (rate of relative target position change), range and G load (difficulty in getting the weapon aligned and keeping it on target), with hard limits enforced for reaction time (no MLG noscope hits on targets that cross through a gunner's field of view) as well as gun traverse speed (at high transversal speeds a gunner shouldn't physically be able to take or keep aim in the first place).

[Royal_Flight]

2 hours ago, 307_Tomcat said:

 Someone could pull statistical data from already recorded server logs for example  WOL. How many attack ended with damage / pk and time of it. Not all info is there but this could be good start.

 

This. 

 

It’s hard to to be objective because everyone remembers the negatives.

 I’m a bomber/attacker pilot and about 90% of the aircraft I fly have gunners, and I get shot down by attacking fighters more often than those attacking fighters are shot down by my gunners. 

 

Yes, there is a problem with gunners occasionally taking hyper-accurate snapshots, but these incite discussion because they stick out - there’s no interest in discussing any of the routine occasions where a fighter shoots down a bomber and takes minor, non-critical damage from return fire. 

But a video of an implausible snapshot will rack up a lot of views and suddenly there’s a perception that there’s a major issue. 

 

If it was as bad as all this then the cockpit of a bomber would be the safest place to be, which has not been my experience. 

 

I’d be interested to see the numbers. If a fighter pilot shoots down four bombers and gets pilot sniped by the fifth, sure that’s frustrating for them.

But for the bomber pilot, most of those missions are one-way. If my gunners occasionally do their job and keep me in the air longer that’s great but I’ve still got a long way to the target and back home again. 

If you’re intercepted there’s not much you can do other than go defensive and hope your gunners are having a good day. 

 

Given the way MP tends to be small groups or lone-wolves stumbling across each other inside the bubble, neutering the gunners would make flying bombers much more frustrating and far less rewarding.

 

Against the odds, bombers win matches by wiping targets off the map. I wouldn’t be in favour of making that job any harder, anyway. 

[303_Kwiatek]

It is not only sniper gunners which in most cases are ridicules  but i it looks that gunners are also very resistant to fighters bullets. Like they wear bulletproof vest.

 

IT was the same situation in old ROF game -  gunners in 2 seaters are the same level  - snipers and bulletproof cyborgs.

 

IRL gunners expecially tail gunners dint have long life

 

" While the Il-2 had its vulnerabilities, the rear-gunner’s position was much more perilous than the pilot’s. While his crewmate was protected by 12mm of armor on both sides and behind the seat, not to mention 65mm protective glass sections, the gunner was provided with 6mm of armor, which was only effective against small arms fire. The death rate among rear-gunners was understandably exceptionally high, and injuries were even more frequent. Resting their feet on partitions separating the fuselage from the cockpit, gunners’ legs were protected only by the aircraft’s outer plywood. As one rear gunner recalled, “there was a feeling that every time you’d go out you were going to your execution. "

 

" (Lancaster) The Rear-turret Gunners were in the most vulnerable position on the plane. The life expectancy of a WW2 Rear-gunner varied but was never high, mostly about just 5 sorties. "

 

 

Definitly something should be done with gunners in BOX.

Edited March 22, 2019 by 303_Kwiatek

[unreasonable]

I smell a factoid. 

3 hours ago, 303_Kwiatek said:

 

" (Lancaster) The Rear-turret Gunners were in the most vulnerable position on the plane. The life expectancy of a WW2 Rear-gunner varied but was never high, mostly about just 5 sorties. "

 

 

While I agree the rear gunner was vulnerable, the life expectancy was not 5 sorties.  Bomber Command lost 75,446 aircrew in total (KIA, WIA and POW) flying 364,514 operational sorties.  Quite a few of those casualties would have been on non operational sorties, but counting them all that is   4.8 sorties per casualty - for all aircrew. No way was the rear gunner rate anywhere near this since as often as not the entire crew would be lost.  A similar site (from where you got this) cites 20,000 air gunners killed: that is one every 18 sorties, which seems much more plausible. This is almost all night operations BTW.

 

That aside, I agree that the whole firing when spinning, crashing etc must end, and I do not believe that this requires any complex calculations: at a certain point the plane is deemed lost and bailing out is attempted: it just needs to happen earlier.

 

For the rest of it I agree with @Royal_Flight - we get a very selective sample here: we never see all the times the gunners fire and miss. Being attacked by fighters was dangerous for a bomber: but it was dangerous for the fighters too. I would be interested to see any figures for the casualty rates of fighters attacking bombers: I would not be surprised if was close to 1:1.  Anyone have any sources?

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by unreasonable

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

11 hours ago, 307_Tomcat said:

 

Well this is only my experience, it's true that most shortcomings are shared by all gunners.

 

One thing I can support about the Pe-2 - as evidenced by one of the above videos - is that at least the ventral gunner position (possibly all positions) may have a problem with the model allowing the gunner to move well beyond the gun mount range.  I don't know if all planes have this problem or not.  It may not have to do with AI accuracy, but I do think it's a valid factor to consider for any future adjustments we may be able to convince the devs. to make. 

[=FEW=Hauggy]

Agreed tailgunners have been pure cancer and espefcially since recently, the damn gunner seems to "see" you and follow you before you even enter his line of sight and fires with extreme accuracy it's seems near impossible to dodge...last one in date I pulled up above a pe-2 after a vertical attack from below and the gunner instantly  pilot sniped me as soon as I flew past it's turret on top...

This is ridiculous it would be nice to at least see that very important part improved since it affect both online and offline players.

Maybe tail gunners could have a real dead zone instead of being ready to kill before they can even physically see your plane and also reduce the insane accuracy right now on TAW even with gunners set on medium you get nailed in a split second.

[PikAss]

 

WHAT THE ….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUYPZccpYpg&t=1m15s

 

I attacked a Ju88 from above from 90* Degree angle and my plane was close to structural Damage when I was doing so, after I passed the 88, it buttom gunner hit my planes engine. So ya our Approach is wrong, sure...

Edited March 22, 2019 by [3./J88]PikAss

[sniperton]

On 3/22/2019 at 12:34 AM, MeoW.Scharfi said:

due inhuman reflexes and speed

 

23 hours ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

It's almost as if they can 'see' through the plane and visually track your movement and draw a bead on you long before the actual FOV a real person sitting in the position would be able to.

 

It seems to me that the AI is always playing with "icons on", it's as simple as that IMO. Consequently, the AI can trace you long before you would be traced by a human, the AI can calculate your path, and the AI can open fire immediately when you enter its field of fire.

The fighter AI does the same, hence the impossible deflection shots fired when the sight is still being blocked by the airframe. Moreover, the gunner AI can readjust its aim in no time, while the fighter AI has to do the same by aiming with the airplane whose movement is subject to the laws of physics.

All this results in impossible deflection hits when you pass by in high speed over the bomber in close distance. What hits you in such situations are indeed aimed shots, not just stray bullets (most of the time).

I seriously think it's a general AI issue and won't significantly change until the AI is deprived of omnivisage and/or given a realistic time offset for target acquisition and aim adjustement.

Edited March 23, 2019 by sniperton

[Bilbo_Baggins]

19 hours ago, 303_Kwiatek said:

It is not only sniper gunners which in most cases are ridicules  but i it looks that gunners are also very resistant to fighters bullets. Like they wear bulletproof vest.

 

" While the Il-2 had its vulnerabilities, the rear-gunner’s position was much more perilous than the pilot’s. While his crewmate was protected by 12mm of armor on both sides and behind the seat, not to mention 65mm protective glass sections, the gunner was provided with 6mm of armor.

 

Not to digress from the OP’s argument, however I’d be very interested to know about the Pe2 gunner armour. I’ve seen schematics of the Il2’s tremendous armoured plating as you mentioned, but haven’t seen such details about the Pe2 armour.

 

When you’re inside the rear fuselage as gunner, there appears to be a bulkhead, however I have no idea to what extent it was arnoured. On SP testing one can see it is exceptionally difficult to kill that particular gunner, so I’m interested if anyone knows anything about that rear bulkhead. 

 

German bomber gunners seem too difficult to kill as well, in particular the JU88.

 

I agree that in addition to the gunner AI behavior, the bulletproof vests as you put it need to be addressed.

 

RGDS

[D3adCZE]

I have never achieved to kill enemy gunner even with concentrated burst into his face. They are terminators.

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

Rear gunners being able to withstand a lot of incoming concentrated fire is real problem indeed especially when it comes to the rear gunner.

 

Without being able to pinpoint the exact issue it also seems highly aircraft dependent. While most fighters suffer from rear gunners there are some where you are very safe. I had never issues with rear gunners in the p40 for example while i have terrible experiences with 109s and La 5s.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

I always find it interesting when a bullet volley that should have killed both the gunner and the pilot only kills the pilot.  It seems being pilot sniped by a fighter is about 10x more likely than the gunner getting hit but, the gunner is in the direct line of fire. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I had similar thoughts about ROF hard to hit gunners , but I accepted it to  much higher guns dispersions. Then came Gunner and player hit box mod by @steppenwolf and make the game more realistic  - kudos for that. I wonder his opinion about gunner hit box.

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

If you look really closely, this is tho bottom gunner whipping his periscope in half a second on target without seeing me before 

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by =FEW=N3croo
link

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

Fresh one today

 

 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

Got pilot sniped by a Ju-87 yesterday.  I was the first bullet too.   I fully agree with the original post that (to paraphrase) "it's not just the Pe-2 so don't make it that way."

 

It seems to me that the plane I have the least trouble with is the Bf-110.  I'm not sure it it's due to "1.5+ G's makes gunners not fire" or if it's due to the gun mount having such a small coverage area making it easy to stay away from.  Since the 110 is very dogfight/turn fight/vertical fight capable, it may be the pilots themselves - using hard turning, climbing and diving - negating any usefulness the gunner could be.

[-250H-Ursus_]

I got sniper by a A-20 like @I-Fly-Central 3 days ago, i was attacking at high speed with a 109G6. My pilot litteraly lost an eye

[BubiHUN]

I just ran into the issue while flying a Pe-2 - my plane had the Blister turret - that my top gunner didnt even fired. 
Ran into this with other planes in the close past(like 110 and Stuka)
Would be good if Devs can implement a "Struggle" feature for the gunners.

[JG27*Kornezov]

On the other hand that is giving some chances of the bomb crews to play. Otherwise a bomber cannot survive if it was more realistic.

 

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

15 minutes ago, JG27_Kornezov said:

On the other hand that is giving some chances of the bomb crews to play. Otherwise a bomber cannot survive if it was more realistic.

 

 

How about playing in a team with escort? i know..crazy idea

[CountZero]

By default gunners will fire when fired apon, you have to give order to them to fire at will maybe thats why they didnt shoot.

 

Why would bombers fly in formations when targets are not in game so they can bomb them in formation, you need to destroy each building and ammo box and so on... no area targets for high alt bombings like you had in CloD, where flying and bombing in formation was done constantly.

Here the enviroment is creating situation where you cant go more then 10km from your objective (short vis range of game) so you see bomber to late so you end up on his 6, and targets dictate that if you wont to be effective you have to fly and attack objectives at low alt even if they are airbases, factorys ports and so on...

 

Also fighters should attack and fly in formations also like in real ww2, or they are only ones alowed to fly like lone wulfs

Bomber player needs to have advantages in game, there is far more fighters then them in game, ace gunners fix that problem.

Edited March 28, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[Ribbon]

20 minutes ago, JG27_Kornezov said:

On the other hand that is giving some chances of the bomb crews to play. Otherwise a bomber cannot survive if it was more realistic.

 

Neutral with this, i too fly bombers as much as i fly fighters but under attack i maneuver so gunner accuracy doesn't help me much, but thanks for the tip guys about level flight

4 minutes ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

How about playing in a team with escort? i know..crazy idea

Meanwhile in the perfect world^^^......lol!

Maybe reducing gunnery accuracy would force that, i would love that scenario....it would bring immersion to a new level.

So far it's very rare to see ingame, maybe Air Marshall will benefit in that regard.

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

Po-2 tailgunner hits anything at any speed, R.I.P 262s

thats the issue as it stand if ppl wanna balance we got difficulties, sadly the top 2 are aimbots the bottom 2 dont know which end of the gun to use.

Balance here or there the gunners have inhumane reaction times and wallhacks shooting you whizzing by at any opportunity nailing you with +300kph delte with every shot of the burst ezpz