-=PHX=-SuperEtendard Posted March 20, 2019 Posted March 20, 2019 1 minute ago, 77.CountZero said: how come seting rads to 100% dosent make it faster on other maps then but best s 0%rads, also 0% or 100% on winter after few min position of cowling flaps gets to same place automaticly when you look at airplane from outside view, something is strange with it on winter maps either by design or bug. The rads are always automatically controlled, what you change is the temperature you want to keep. Maybe they should change the name of the control and have it named as "Radiator temperature settting" to avoid confusion.
Bert_Foster Posted March 20, 2019 Posted March 20, 2019 These are the Numbers I see D9 Stalingrad Map from QMB On the deck 50% Internal fuel, Clean aircraft, Straight canopy, Rads Auto Stalingrad Summer Full throttle no MW50 1.52ata/3250rpm 543Kmh IAS Full throttle MW50 1.75ata/3250rpm 590Kmh IAS Stalingrad Winter Full throttle no MW50 1.32ata/3250rpm 555Kmh IAS Full throttle MW50 1.35ata/3250rpm 580Kmh IAS Stalingrad Autumn Full throttle no MW50 1.50ata/3250rpm 560Kmh IAS Full throttle MW50 1.78ata/3250rpm 605Kmh IAS In terms of IAS the D9 is slower on the winter map, fastest on the Autumn map and in the middle on the summer map. 2
303_Kwiatek Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 Strange all other planes are faster in winter then in ISA conditions why D-9 should be different here?
JtD Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 Interesting figures, Bert. If you had the time, you could go into the FMB and change the atmospheric conditions gradually to see at what point the odd winter behaviour sets in. I don't know of any historical reference to an engine behaviour like you tested it in game.
Bert_Foster Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 JTD in your comment on Jumo 213 regulation being fixed Mass flow rather than fixed boost does it follow that RPM determines Power output and the MBG will therefore vary Boost as a function of air density to achieve the selected/commanded power output ? So for instance at -30C at 3250 RPM ata 1.38 the power output at +30C at 3250 rpm at 1.56ata is the same ?
JtD Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) This was the idea of the regulation, yes. It was noted that this way the power was kept more constant over varying conditions in particular over altitude than the traditional constant boost regulation, which had power increase with altitude and generally change depending on outside conditions. It wasn't perfect, though, and power still varied to a (small) degree. They also had a fancy throttle that did not just make intake air turbulent, but directed it so that it kind of helped driving the supercharger and could not be compressed as much. So supercharging cold, dense air cost less extra power than in traditional designs. Plus the Jumo produced a lot of exhaust thrust, which is helpful in high speed flight. I haven't actually seen figures of power output at different temperatures, and it's kind of hard for me to estimate the small variation since there are too many unknowns. So I go with constant. Edited March 21, 2019 by JtD
Bert_Foster Posted March 21, 2019 Posted March 21, 2019 Ok thanks JTD that makes sense. Also explains perhaps why we don't see the usual increase in speed on winter maps given its generally constant power variable ATA versus Air density. Though in game I would have expected equivalent IAS for the same RPM.
CountZero Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 viks replay on russian forum when asked about strange speeds on winter map: Yes, we found an error - in the afterburner at low temperatures - it did not give the correct power. It will be fixed in the next update (or hotfix). https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/8420-обсуждение-версии-3012-fw-190-d-9-prokhorovka-m4a2-pzkpfwiii-ausfm-fokker-dviif/?do=findComment&comment=682081 1 1 5
TWC_Ace Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said: Afterburner????? ?? Google translate ? Forsaž means emergency power.
CountZero Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said: Afterburner????? ?? when will goggle learn, their AI is terible
Psyrion Posted March 22, 2019 Posted March 22, 2019 1 hour ago, blackram said: Google translate ? Forsaž means emergency power. Thanks for the clarification 1
Blackhawk_FR Posted March 23, 2019 Posted March 23, 2019 I don't know if it's has been already talken about but why the Dora's engine is so slow to rise his power when we push the throttle? I guess it has something special compare to other but what?
Panzerlang Posted March 23, 2019 Posted March 23, 2019 1 hour ago, F/JG300_Faucon said: I don't know if it's has been already talken about but why the Dora's engine is so slow to rise his power when we push the throttle? I guess it has something special compare to other but what? It's probably the Kommandogerat's bit of RL lag?
EpeeNoire Posted March 23, 2019 Posted March 23, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said: I don't know if it's has been already talken about but why the Dora's engine is so slow to rise his power when we push the throttle? I guess it has something special compare to other but what? 1 hour ago, Uffz-Prien said: It's probably the Kommandogerat's bit of RL lag? my guess would be that it is simply due to the engine itself. the jumo 213 was designed as bomber engine, after all. and for that, it didnt really need to be all that responsive Edited March 23, 2019 by EpeeNoire typo 1
Panzerlang Posted March 23, 2019 Posted March 23, 2019 12 minutes ago, EpeeNoire said: my guess would be that it is simply due to the engine itself. the jumo 213 was designed as bomber engine, after all. and for that, I didnt really need to be all that responsive An engine's responsiveness has a lot to do with the speed in which the fuel is delivered to the cylinders, if we're talking only about making it turn over faster. I doubt an inline bomber engine was designed with heavier pistons though, so that's not going to be it.
SCG_OpticFlow Posted March 23, 2019 Posted March 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, EpeeNoire said: my guess would be that it is simply due to the engine itself. the jumo 213 was designed as bomber engine, after all. and for that, I didnt really need to be all that responsive No, Jumo 213 is futher development of Jumo 211, which was designed as a fighter engine and direct competitor to DB 601 (with similar specs for weight and power). After they lost the fighter engine contract, Junkers put the engine in their own production, which happened to be bombers.
Bremspropeller Posted March 23, 2019 Posted March 23, 2019 (edited) It's probably the messing around with prop pitch that makes the engine seem to respond slowly. It's not a conventional throttle after all! Haven't had any issue with it whatsoever. Haven't even noticed it tbh. Propably because I'm not hot-gunning the throttle all the time. Edited March 23, 2019 by Bremspropeller
Psyrion Posted March 23, 2019 Posted March 23, 2019 If you´re in second gear then dropping below 30% Throttle position will kick you down into low gear. Keep that in mind if you´re changing throttle quickly at altitude. Shifting back up costs some time.
Blackhawk_FR Posted March 23, 2019 Posted March 23, 2019 May be a protection for the risk of RPM overrun? 1
Bert_Foster Posted March 23, 2019 Posted March 23, 2019 (edited) The current description of the Jumo 213 engine modes in the in game specification is imo confusing: After reading all the posts and doing some research I believe this is what we should be see in in terms of D9 engine operation: Given the Regulation (as detailed by JTD) is Constant Air Mass regulation we set power using RPM as the sole reference and observe the resultant ata that is commanded by the Bediengerat. So as air density varies ata will vary for each selected rpm. The RPM selected determines required power output and the Bediengerat delivers that by use of variable ata SC etc. We basically see that already in game and is well done. I would expect similar speeds for all seasons since RPM selects a specific desired power and ata will vary to achieve that demanded/selected power. ENGINE MODES The cockpit has the Bediengerat Emergency pull handle and MW50 modeled. My research indicates that Bediengerat emergency mode was only installed on earlier D9's and was eventually removed. (The initial temporary Field Mod was a cock placed on the fwd panel. Subsequently the Pull handle was installed) However since it is there in the Sim and referred to then its implementation should be correct. Its my understanding that Emergency mode was designed to give around an extra 0.2ata (on top of what the Bediengerat gave at 3250rpm) and was for limited use. 3 min being quoted in an FW190D9 pilots notes I have seen. Typically Emergency mode was used on take off. For Emergency mode to be used The SIM needs a separate keybinding to engage Emergency mode. We then have the two combat ratings one with MW50 and one with out MW50 and Continuous, the specs should then imo read: Engine Modes Emergency Power (3minutes) 3250 RPM 1.7 ata Take off Nominal (unlimited): 3000RPM (variable ata 1.42 typical) Combat Power (30minutes) : 3250 RPM (Variable ata 1.7 ata typical) Combat+MW50 (10 minutes) 3250 (variable ata 1.8 ata typical) This comes from a translated D9 manual no ata refrence is given since RPM is the sole reference to power output. Edited March 23, 2019 by Bert_Foster more info 1 1 1
Psyrion Posted March 23, 2019 Posted March 23, 2019 (edited) @Bert_Foster Agreed but I´d rename the Modes to what they were called back then. 2700 is max continous power, 3000 is climb and combat power, 3250 w/o MW50 is Emergency Power/Takeoff Power, 3250 w/ MW50 is Special or increased emergency power. From the game timer point of view your description is better though. Edited March 23, 2019 by Psyrion 1
JtD Posted March 24, 2019 Posted March 24, 2019 The labelling was changed later, and 3000 indeed became max. continuous and 3250 combat power, with ~1700hp at sea level. 3250 was also increased emergency power with ~1900hp, activation by a cock in the cockpit, and special emergency power with MW50 ~2100hp, activation by a switch in the cockpit, where available. Both were cleared for 10 minutes according to the engine manual (Jumo213 in Fw190D-9, September 1944). For take off, 1900hp were permitted, MW50 only in flight. I'm with Bert that the ata are confusing and it would be better to eliminate them from the description and instead add a bit of text. 1 1
Psyrion Posted March 24, 2019 Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) @JtDGood to know. I took those numbers from the Dezember 43 manual on avialogs. There's obviously a bit of a time gap until Bodenplatte. Could you share the September 44 manual? Would we great. Edited March 24, 2019 by Psyrion 1
Bremspropeller Posted March 24, 2019 Posted March 24, 2019 4 hours ago, JtD said: For take off, 1900hp were permitted, MW50 only in flight. I'm with Bert that the ata are confusing and it would be better to eliminate them from the description and instead add a bit of text. For clarifaction: Was the cock-activated 1900PS regime the same system that was installed by TAM (Oldenburgsystem)? So do I understand correctly that the Oldenburgsystem was continued from December onwards an the MW-50 was just installed on top?
JtD Posted March 24, 2019 Posted March 24, 2019 Do I get away with this? It's a snippet from the excellent Peter Rodeike book on the Fw190. Appears to be worth it's weight in gold if you check amazon.com prices, but can also be found cheaper elsewhere (localized amazon to start with): You can find the statement that continuous and combat power have been upped, plus you find reference to the increased emergency power (1750+150=1900PS) based on an increased boost and to the special emergency power with MW50 (2100PS), which will "replace" the increased emergency power. WRT to the Oldenburg system, this was a simplified factory installed MW50 system that could also deliver 2100PS, but as opposed to the full factory installed system could not be switched between using MW50 or fuel. With the full system the rear tank could alternatively be filled with fuel for extended range, but it wasn't available in sufficient numbers (or at all) in December 1944 / January 1945. The TAM upgraded FW190D-9 to 1900PS increased emergency power, as a large number of early D-9's had left the factory with the basic 1750PS setting, which was completed in December 1944 ("all D-9 in service use increased emergency power"). The information is taken from the monthly reports of the Junkers Technischer Außendienst Motoren (TAM), technical field support engines. All in all, if I read things right, we shouldn't have both increased and special emergency power available on one aircraft. You either have MW50, then you get 2100PS, or you don't, in which case 1900PS is the limit. 2 2
Psyrion Posted March 24, 2019 Posted March 24, 2019 You totally get away with this, thanks. Btw, does that by chance say something about the Supercharger gear shift altitude aswell? The 43 manual says 2700-3000m but ingame it´s about 3200-3400 right now. Again, manual is older than the version of D9 we have in game so that could´ve changed.
JtD Posted March 24, 2019 Posted March 24, 2019 http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Jumo_213A_power_graph.jpg You have a power chart here (still with old combat and continuous settings), charger gear change varies depending on the power setting. It doesn't show the 1900PS line, but there you'd get a gear change altitude between 2000 and 2500m if you extrapolate the curves. But 3200-3400m is plausible if it is high speed flight, as you can also see that it adds about 1000m.
Bremspropeller Posted March 24, 2019 Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, JtD said: Do I get away with this? It's a snippet from the excellent Peter Rodeike book on the Fw190. Appears to be worth it's weight in gold if you check amazon.com prices, but can also be found cheaper elsewhere (localized amazon to start with): You can find the statement that continuous and combat power have been upped, plus you find reference to the increased emergency power (1750+150=1900PS) based on an increased boost and to the special emergency power with MW50 (2100PS), which will "replace" the increased emergency power. WRT to the Oldenburg system, this was a simplified factory installed MW50 system that could also deliver 2100PS, but as opposed to the full factory installed system could not be switched between using MW50 or fuel. With the full system the rear tank could alternatively be filled with fuel for extended range, but it wasn't available in sufficient numbers (or at all) in December 1944 / January 1945. The TAM upgraded FW190D-9 to 1900PS increased emergency power, as a large number of early D-9's had left the factory with the basic 1750PS setting, which was completed in December 1944 ("all D-9 in service use increased emergency power"). The information is taken from the monthly reports of the Junkers Technischer Außendienst Motoren (TAM), technical field support engines. All in all, if I read things right, we shouldn't have both increased and special emergency power available on one aircraft. You either have MW50, then you get 2100PS, or you don't, in which case 1900PS is the limit. Thanks for shooting a quick reply and for the clarification on the Oldenburg system! I pretty much have all the "big" works on the 190s, but the more books you have, the harder it gets to find the right qoute quickly, unless you highlight and put stickies into everything... That's about what I remembered (either the TAM-system OR the MW-50) and what was depicted in the original IL-2 with the '44 and '45 models of the Dora. I was just confused by the wording above. However, this would also mean that the Erhöhte Notleistung was only available by engaging the cock in the "44" birds, but it could be accessed - nominally - by the later birds through the uprated/ extended engine ratings? Edited March 24, 2019 by Bremspropeller
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