Me 410 and Mosquito

[Asgar]

All we need is a 410 with a 50mm cannon so we can blow up the B-25s we’re getting soon. Best way to achieve happiness

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

There were gliders in the original IL2, and I don't think I ever saw them used, ever, in all the years I played it.

The Me-321 isthelargest of all sitting ducks. On a remotely even stacked server it is a suicide commando to fly that one.

 

But it would be cool having such behind your towplane as loadout option. We‘d need the He-111 Z for that. Should be doable.

 

3 minutes ago, Asgar said:

All we need is a 410 with a 50mm cannon so we can blow up the B-25s we’re getting soon. Best way to achieve happiness

If the 410 is loaded with that cannon, I guess the B-25 can put up a good dogfight.

Edited February 18, 2019 by ZachariasX

[EAF19_Marsh]

3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

 

If the 410 is loaded with that cannon, I guess the B-25 can put up a good dogfight.

 

I recall that it tended to jam and was not terribly popular

 

[SovietAce]

Mosquito would be truly great addition to current planeset. Just imagine that possibilties with it. As for Germans Im quite sceptical for Me 410. True it might very interesting plane to fly and maybe we could have some night dogfighting with it, but I dont think it fit scenario well. I know that some nightfighters were used during BoBp to attack allied airfields at night, but those attacks werent much sucessfull. Maybe some late version of Ju 88 would be best option.

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, SovietAce said:

Maybe some late version of Ju 88 would be best option.

I think that would be nice to have. The Ju88 is like the Bf109 of the bombers. AND it is really a good airplane. Every scenario can have its version of the Ju88 as well...

 

Along with a Mossie variant, of course.  

[Panthera]

The Mossie 57mm cannon had the same jamming issue, but when it worked it was real effective. Same is said about the Me410's 50mm gun, tended to jam in maneuvering fights, but it was tremendously effective when it worked. 

[EAF19_Marsh]

2 hours ago, Panthera said:

but it was tremendously effective when it worked. 

 

Struggling to find much evidence of it working. Scanned Don Caldwell, but it seems to have been something of a liability.

 

The Tse-tse Mossie would not be relevant for BoBp so better to have B and FB 1944-45 variants.

[Panthera]

22 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Struggling to find much evidence of it working. Scanned Don Caldwell, but it seems to have been something of a liability.

 

The Tse-tse Mossie would not be relevant for BoBp so better to have B and FB 1944-45 variants.

 

Well ofcourse it worked, but due to the size & weight of the shells the belt links tended to fail if fired during maneuvers (this would've esp. been a problem in the high G maneuvers an Me262 would likely carry out, hence it probably would've never worked out well on that aircraft), which was the exact same issue that plagued the tse-tse Mossie's 6 pdr. Also just as with the tse-tse Mossie the heavy gun naturally weighed the aircraft down, thus outside of special duties such as attacking unmaneuverable bombers & ground targets it was ofcourse totally unsuited.

 

Either way the Me410 units seems to have had good success with the weapon until Allied fighter sweeps discontinued the large scale daylight Zerstörer attacks, IIRC over a hundred Allied bombers were claimed by BK-5 equipped Me410's.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Panthera

[EAF19_Marsh]

No, I see no evidence that the 50mm was successful at all. The claims would be interesting, do you have them?

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

No, I see no evidence that the 50mm was successful at all. The claims would be interesting, do you have them?

 

Some say (on Wiki) that they really butchered the American bombers:

 

According to the account of the engagements against the USAAF by II./ZG 26 from late February through mid-April 1944 mentioned at a German language website,^[3] the 53 Me 410 Hornisse of that Zerstörergruppe equipped with the BK 5 - as the Umrüst-Bausätze factory modification designated /U4 for the Me 410 series of aircraft - were said to have shot down a total of 129 B-17 Flying Fortress and four B-24 Liberator heavy bomber aircraft, distributed over a series of five or six interceptions, all while losing only nine of their own Me 410s.^{[4][dubious – discuss]}

 

If they have 53 planes in total, you cannot expect more than 30 or so being up for a specific intercept. 30 aircraft attaining a 14:1 or so exchange ratio over beavy bombers(!) would be fantastic. Can you imagine how many they would have built if they were indeed that sucessful? But they didn‘t. In fact, they preferred more 20 and 30 mm guns installed.

 

There is also a nice photo on Wiki showing a BK 5 equipped 410 passing a B-17 very closely, something that the large cannon specifically should mitigate.

[Panthera]

2 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

No, I see no evidence that the 50mm was successful at all. The claims would be interesting, do you have them?

 

The book I read some time ago was "Me 410 in Combat" by K. Janowicz, as I recall there the BK-5 was described as absolutely successful when it didn't jam. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Panthera

[Voidhunger]

Im not a fan of twin engined propeller plane, but the Me 210/410 and mainly the He 219 UHU are absolutely beautiful planes!

[Asgar]

3 hours ago, Panthera said:

 

Well ofcourse it worked, but due to the size & weight of the shells the belt links tended to fail if fired during maneuvers (this would've esp. been a problem in the high G maneuvers an Me262 would likely carry out, hence it probably would've never worked out well on that aircraft), which was the exact same issue that plagued the tse-tse Mossie's 6 pdr. Also just as with the tse-tse Mossie the heavy gun naturally weighed the aircraft down, thus outside of special duties such as attacking unmaneuverable bombers & ground targets it was ofcourse totally unsuited.

 

Either way the Me410 units seems to have had good success with the weapon until Allied fighter sweeps discontinued the large scale daylight Zerstörer attacks, IIRC over a hundred Allied bombers were claimed by BK-5 equipped Me410's.

 

 

just wanna point out, IF the 262 would've ever entered service with a 50mm it wouldn't have been the BK-5 but the MK 214A

[EAF19_Marsh]

2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

 

If they have 53 planes in total, you cannot expect more than 30 or so being up for a specific intercept. 30 aircraft attaining a 14:1 or so exchange ratio over beavy bombers(!) would be fantastic. Can you imagine how many they would have built if they were indeed that sucessful? But they didn‘t. In fact, they preferred more 20 and 30 mm guns installed.

 

That was my understanding as well. It was difficult to aim, heavy, not terribly reliable and was kept in service owing to it being an Adolf favourite. In fact, I recall that Milch (?) brought along the Gruppe commander to briefing specifically to request that it be discontinued [though this might be apocryphal]

 

Anyway unlike the rockets, extra 30mm, Sturm units etc it does not appear to have been terribly popular.

 

1 hour ago, Panthera said:

 

The book I read some time ago was "Me 410 in Combat" by K. Janowicz, as I recall there the BK-5 was described as absolutely successful when it didn't jam. 

 

Like I said, I cannot see anything in Caldwell, Price etc. that have much positive to say about it. Maybe I am missing something? I would instinctively suggest it might prove tricky as a weapon give the circumstances.

[Asgar]

btw. the Me 410 would be a great opportunity to implement the funcitonality of the German StuVi which could then be added to the Ju 87 and 88

[=27=Davesteu]

And so would the Ar 234. But then, to be quite frank, we shouldn't have to buy another plane to get this distinct feature implemented. That said, the Ar 234 would be an excellent collector aircraft.

 

8 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

The Tse-tse Mossie would not be relevant for BoBp so better to have B and FB 1944-45 variants.

The bombers operated from GB and weren't subordinated to 2nd TAF.
According to Shores, photo-reconnaissance Mosquitoes were based within the BoBP-map's boundaries throughout the BoBP-timeframe. Besides those, only the Mosquito NF equipped No. 409 Sqn. RCAF was based within the map at B.68 Le Culot for a whopping 8 days in early October 1944 and the likewise equipped No. 219 Sqn. RAF moved to Gilze-Rijen in mid-March 1945.
The Me 410 doesn't fit BoBP at all, but, lacking a place in the in-game campaign, the Mosquito isn't far behind. I hope they focus on the Mitchell, Typhoon, and Spitfire XIV.

Edited February 20, 2019 by =27=Davesteu

[MiloMorai]

Maj Wilhelm Herget made 2 operational flights with WNr 111899 on April16 and in both cases the MK214 jammed.

[danielprates]

4 hours ago, Asgar said:

 a great opportunity to implement the funcitonality of the German StuVi which could then be added to the Ju 87 and 88

 

Now there's something we need! 

[sevenless]

Arado, Spit XiV, Mossie and Typhoon would be great! Let´s see what they could come up with. I expect them to let the cat out of the bag june/july earliest. 

[Mac_Messer]

2 hours ago, =27=Davesteu said:

 I hope they focus on the Mitchell, Typhoon, and Spitfire XIV.

Actually, I`d rather have the 109G10, FW190A9 and Ta152.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

A pox a both your houses!

[EAF19_Marsh]

9 hours ago, =27=Davesteu said:

The bombers operated from GB and weren't subordinated to 2nd TAF.

 

No. 2 Group 2TAF I thought, though with interdiction and strike rather than CAS as their mission. Pretty much the same organisation.

 

I get the map issue, but if the A-3 was added to BoS due to popularity then there is a strong commerical case for the Mossie.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Memoirs of a TseTse nav:

 

[danielprates]

2 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

I get the map issue, but if the A-3 was added to BoS due to popularity then there is a strong commerical case for the Mossie.

 

 Damn right! It saddens me to read some messages out there strongly advocating the mosquito is left out, it seems to me like excessive hair-splitting in this case.

[Asgar]

same is right for the 410, it has many fans, it offers a good range of gameplay and most importantly, it will make money for the devs. It's a smart business move

Edited February 21, 2019 by Asgar

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

same is right for the 410, it has many fans, it offers a good range of gameplay and most importantly, it will make money for the devs. It's a smart business move

 

BoBp:

2 x RAF (plus an eventual AI)

3 x USAAF

5 x Luftwaffe

 

Won't someone think of the children??!? Mosquito is clearly the missing link!!?!

 

[=27=Davesteu]

No, it would not be a smart business move. Maybe they would sell well, but at the same time this could be true for every other aircraft. Most costumers are not active in this forum - but I guess some more would be after learning their 25$ aircraft can't be used in the game's core feature, namely the campaign.
Preceding the new campaign system, the Fw 190 A-3, Macchi 202, and P-40E-1 argument is outdated.
On top of that, neither the Mosquito nor the Me 410 would fill the biggest gaps in the BoBP planeset:
Bomber: Mitchell Mk. II & Ar 234 B-2
High-Performance: Spitfire XIV
Mainstay of the 2nd TAF: Typhoon Ib

[EAF19_Marsh]

This is a GD not a Suggestions topic. Please move it back to the correct forum section.

[Asgar]

6 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

BoBp:

2 x RAF (plus an eventual AI)

3 x USAAF

5 x Luftwaffe

 

Won't someone think of the children??!? Mosquito is clearly the missing link!!?!

 

your math is wrong, let me help you: 5 + 1AI Allied planes vs 5 German planes 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Asgar

[EAF19_Marsh]

6 minutes ago, Asgar said:

you math is wrong, let me help you: 5 + 1AI Allied planes vs 5 German planes 

 

Yeah, I think you missed something there. I know, let's add another few German aircraft that saw no service in the BoBp area or were not based within the map.

Maybe they could be the one-off variants, as well, that saw very limited service as that is clearly a priority. Am sure Kurfurst will show up soon and remind us that the training groups in Scotland or operational in SEA still had Spitfire Vs, so clearly that is a late '44 Allied aircraft and hence ' counts' in BoBp.

 

Screw it, let's drop the UK contribution all together - that should free some dev time.

 

Happier now that I helped you?

 

 

[ACG_Kroko]

What, some one want such an a historically irrelevant aircraft as the Spitfire Mk XIV more, than the most importent and iconic british light bomber/fighter bomber of the entire war (this aeroplane wich drove Göring most in rage)? That`s bizarre.

[CountZero]

38 minutes ago, I./ZG1_Krokodilor said:

What, some one want such an a historically irrelevant aircraft as the Spitfire Mk XIV more, than the most importent and iconic british light bomber/fighter bomber of the entire war (this aeroplane wich drove Göring most in rage)? That`s bizarre.

hehe

 

109K4, or 190D9 are less relavant then Spitfire MkXIV and still we have them as basic airlanes for BoBp not to mention K4 is with 1.98ata engines ? 

Also for BoBp Spit14 fits map area Mosquito not so mutch, and first option for collectable allied twin engine is B-25 as we will have it as AI so half job is done.

[ACG_Kroko]

I

2 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

hehe

 

109K4, or 190D9 are less relavant then Spitfire MkXIV and still we have them as basic airlanes for BoBp not to mention K4 is with 1.98ata engines ? 

Also for BoBp Spit14 fits map area Mosquito not so mutch, and first option for collectable allied twin engine is B-25 as we will have it as AI so half job is done.

 

In case of proportion of the whole allied airpower, the MK XIV allmost was insignificant, regardless to the fact, of higher total number compered with the K4 or D9.
My point is, a versatile aircraft could be from higher value for the game experience (+ it´s future developement), than an other maximum performing pistonengige fighter. if the MK XIV ever should come, i can still hear the "Luftwaffen guys" crying for their ta152 and in order of this the red players want a p47M.
In my opinion such a thinking just binds resurces, wich could be used to realice much more interesting stuff, for example and as you said, the B25.

 

When they  announced "Bodenplatte", i was a bit disappointed apart of the new map (i crown up in the Rhein valley), the only airfraft wich is from huge interest for me is the P38, not  just because it´s cool design , but primary It,s payload and versatitlty convincingly. 

Sure the divertity of multy role aircraft in this szenario is limited, but rather an other one of them (even if their service in this timeframe was limited) the next sigle enge fighter.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by I./ZG1_Krokodilor

[MiloMorai]

Composition of fighter type a/c in the 2TAF, Jan 1 1945:

Spitfire XIV - 12% (6 squadrons)

Spitfire XVI - 8% (4 squadrons)

Spitfire IX - 39% (19 squadrons)

Typhoon - 31% (15 squadrons)

Tempest - 10% (5 squadrons)

 

(numbers rounded off)

 

Only the RAF used the Mitchell in the ETO.

 

Ta152H based well off the current map.

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by MiloMorai
fixed as per Count Zero

[CountZero]

51 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Composition of fighter type a/c in the 2TAF, Jan 1 1945:

Spitfire XVI - 12% (6 squadrons)

Spitfire XVI - 8% (4 squadrons)

Spitfire IX - 39% (19 squadrons)

Typhoon - 31% (15 squadrons)

Tempest - 10% (5 squadrons)

 

(numbers rounded off)

 

Only the RAF used the Mitchell in the ETO.

 

Ta152H based well off the current map.

 

That 12% is Spit14s i guess and not 16s, So looks to me as first choice for allied fighter airplane for collectors , 777 3D devs should start work on it as sone they finish Tempest V ?

[HBPencil]

For myself (but I suspect others feel something similar) I'm one of those who is currently against the inclusion of the Mossie FB/B, not because I have anything against it or am unaware of its historic importance, but because they were based outside the map limits and therefore fall outside of the current meta of having units based on their historically appropriate bases on the map.
This is the framework in which the game is currently being developed. Maybe it is "excessive hair-splitting" (although personally I don't feel it is) but unless the devs indicate that they're receptive to the idea of changing that then any suggestion/idea that is outside of that is unlikely to fly, which seems like a waste of time (even when the basic idea is fine) especially when there's other stuff that would fit in instead such as the Tiffie (I'm kind of amazed at how little love it gets despite being so significant to the BoBP scenario!).

I guess my point is that maybe it's less about trying to convince other forum members such as myself but rather about convincing the devs it's worth their while to change their rules and deal with any flow-on effects of that.

[MiloMorai]

140 Squadron with Mosquito XVIs based at Melsbroek on Jan 1 1945. Was part of 34 Recce Wing.

[CountZero]

3 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

140 Squadron with Mosquito XVIs based at Melsbroek on Jan 1 1945. Was part of 34 Recce Wing.

Then they can easy make it fit, i forghet about recon, and that one can easy have modifications to be bomber version of same type (even the one with 4000lbs bomb) as they dont care mutch about historicly accurate when modifications are in question if modification is interesting. But i still expect that first twin engine collectable to be B-25C/D.

[Kurfurst]

12 hours ago, I./ZG1_Krokodilor said:

In case of proportion of the whole allied airpower, the MK XIV allmost was insignificant, regardless to the fact, of higher total number compered with the K4 or D9.

 

 

It never had higher total number either.

 

K-4 production till end of 1944: 854 (total by end of the war cc. 1600)

 

Me 109K equipped Luftwaffe Wings and lesser units during the war - mostly mixed with other 109s so apart from a few units such as elements of JG 27, 53 and 77, there were no 'pure 109K units - they were to be found almost everywhere, since they were rather similar to the high altitude 109Gs of the time (i.e. G-10, G-14/AS)

 

The main users were III. Wing of JG 27, III. and IV. Wings of JG 53, I.  and III. Wings of JG 77 and II. Wing of KG (J) 6.

 

IIII. Wing of JG 1 (Jan - April 1945)

II Wing of JG 2 (Dec/Jan)

III wing of JG 3 (Dec - May)

I Wing of JG 4 (Jan 45)

III Wing of JG 4 (Nov - April)

IV Wing of JG 4 (Jan 45)

Stab of JG 6 (April/May)

II Wing of JG 11 (Dec/April)

II wing of I / JG 26 (Nov / Jan)

I Wing of JG 27 (Nov / April)

II Wing of JG 27 (October / December)

III Wing of JG 27 (October / May)

IV Wing of JG 27 (Dec / March, 5 a/c only)

Stab, III., IV. Wings of JG 51

Stab, I., II., III. Wings of JG 52 (from January1945)

Stab, II., III., IV Wings of JG 53 (from January 1945)

Stab, I., II., and IIII Wings of JG 77 (III. Wing from October 1944 till April 1945)

III. Wing of EJG 1 (in April 1945)

II. Wing of KG(J) 6

II. Wing of KG(J) 27

II. Wing of KG(J) 55

I. Wing of NJG 11 (in February 1945)

I. and II Wings of Gr. C. (Italian, in April 1945)

Misc. units: Skdo. OKL, Skdo. Elbe, FIÜG 1, Fl. HR. Kdr. Fürth.

 

See: Janda / Poruba's 109K book.

 

D-9 production till end of 1944 cc. 815 (total by end of the war cc. 1805, via Peter Rodeike):

cc. 350 by FW Cottbus 

cc. 60 by Fieseler, Kassel 

cc. 15 by FW, Aslau

cc. 15 by Weserflug, Lemwerder

cc. 175 by unknown manufacturers (WNr. 500 020 - 500 125, WNdr. 500 371 440 range)

cc. 200 by Fiseler, Kassel

 

Fw 190D9 equipped Luftwaffe Wings and lesser units during the war:

Stab and I. Wing of JG 1

Stab and I. and III Wing of JG 2

IV wing of JG 3

Stab of JG 4

Stab and II Wing of JG 6

Stab of JG 211

I., II., III., IV. Wings of JG 26

III. Wing of JG 54

II. Wing of JG 300

II. Wing of JG 301

elements in JV 44.

 

Compare with:

 

XIV production till end of 1944: 341

Total issued to operational Squadrons: 120, in storage : 127

as of 14 December 1944

 

XIVs were basically used by a single Wing, No. 125 (two mixed XIV Squadrons were attached to other wings, but those included tactical recce units,  IIRC). The number remained fairly steady in our timeframe (September 44 - April 45)

Edited February 22, 2019 by VO101Kurfurst

[CountZero]

I tought they made 900+ of them in 1944, how many of thouse D9s and K4s never got to front , or how many were 1.98s we have in game now 

 

" In October 1944 a Mk XIV had the distinction of being the first to destroy a jet-powered Messerschmitt Me 262."

 

its shame not to have Spitfire Mk.XIV in game when it was used even in BoBp area and we have Me262, its quite historical airplane, its oversight by devs that im sure they will fix as sone as posible by making it first collectable airplane that many will get before its even anounced 

 

quick check and there was around 90 K4s on dec31 in bobp area, and 6 spit14 squadrons (thats 70-100 of them ), so its basicly same exept we get one and not other as there is lack of types you can have on axis side when its 5x5 dlcs, just one is more important as it destroyed jet, if only hitler know that he would have his pilots asking for spitfires insted 109s ?

Edited February 22, 2019 by 77.CountZero